Alcaraz vs Fonseca, Świątek’s Confidence Dip, and Gauff’s Forehand Questions

Alvin Owusu (00:01.338)
And welcome to another episode of the best three podcast. I'm Alvin that's Tory and tonight we decided to get together to talk a little bit about Carlos Ocaraz versus Yao Fonseca. Obviously Carlos won that match six four six four, but that's not really the conversation. We'll get to it. Now, trust me, you're here for it. We're going to get to that match. But you and I, Tory, we were texting earlier before this match about what this means, what this

doesn't mean and we kind of circled around this idea of like there is a conversation about the tennis, right? The on court development and results and then there is also a conversation that kind of sits in the land of like sports media and narrative and I want you to give your perspective first because yours is a little different than mine although I don't disagree with yours.

I want you to give it to me from the tennis perspective that you were speaking to before we got together today.

Torrey Hawkins (01:04.335)
So first and foremost, I'm a big Y'all Fonseca fan. I love what he's doing for the game. And I want to go back.

Alvin Owusu (01:08.064)
Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (01:14.009)
seemed like a generation ago, it's only been four or five years. Carlos, right, at one time was the up and comer, right, trying to take down Nadal, who was a fellow countryman and at that time very much the torchbearer for tennis, let alone Spanish tennis and so on. I have your book, Spanish tennis with the two of them on the cover, right? I mean, I'm looking at this.

And I say that in and I'm old enough to remember when Nadal was coming out and he was that up and comer and so on and so forth. What I was getting at Alvin was that Yow is gonna be great. I mean, not good, he's gonna be great. There is in a sense to me, in particular, we're all in a hurry.

to get this young man to be the next Grand Slam threat. And we're so much in a hurry to get this, you know, young man to be, you know, so relevant. And so, and I think the match he played with Sinner, you know, gone six and six, it gave everybody this hope that it could happen next week. You know what I mean? And I'm like, first of all, the brother's doing great where he's at. I mean, he's really made some nice, and I think even the match tonight, which I know we'll get to later, you know, four and four is no small feat against number

Alvin Owusu (02:19.095)
Sure, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:25.423)
the world. mean he held his own and had chances. mean but he's not there yet and that doesn't mean anything at all other than

He's not there yet. There's been players that have gone six, seven, eight years. Agassi went seven years without winning a grand slam. He ended up being one of the best to ever play the game. And I think he won his first slam seven years in and we didn't, know, while you may have been, when's he going to win one? Yeah, you say that back then, but looking back on it, you're like, happened when it was supposed to happen. I mean, and he's, you know, now he's one of the sages of the game. but, but look at what that seven

Alvin Owusu (02:49.089)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (03:04.379)
years of maturation of marinating so to speak did for Andre and so I just feel like it's we don't have to compare him today.

We just have to watch it happen in real time. Appreciate it. And it doesn't mean that if he happened to lose, well, he did lose this match tonight, that his progress or his prognosis or his forecasting is off. He's going to be great. Let him have two more full years on the tour. A win he has right now is an outlier. A loss he has right now is a learning experience. three years, in three years, give the young man three to five full years on tour.

measure his body of work and I just feel like we might be in a bit of a hurry media in particular when he could end up winning a grand slam three to five years from now and that's all we'll remember we don't remember that blur he played against six and six against center and that

Close when he had Miami and so on so all we'll remember was oh, yeah I knew I knew he's gonna win one and I feel that way with a lot of things with a lot of sports in general It's not just tennis but I feel tennis gets so you know We get so granular because we can see the head to head we can see the draw We can look ahead and see you know what what the you know? What where the rankings and the points are and I feel like that's almost to the detriment of a player's improvement because what we're really looking at is a microcosm of now but really comparing him in a macrocosm

Alvin Owusu (04:05.079)
Sure, sure.

Torrey Hawkins (04:33.573)
of his potential slash where he's gonna end up. And that's part of the piece that feel that isn't a fair comparison, I think is what I was getting at. And I think you throw accelerant on that with the media always, we're almost in a hurry to replace our current top two and they just got cozy at the top.

Alvin Owusu (04:36.65)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (04:51.789)
Right, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (04:53.307)
So that's all and that's where I was going at it and it takes nothing away from Yao his potential in his future and I will be right there You know when he wins his first win in Washington and so proud of the young man for what he's done and the shoes he has to fill Which are huge Guga and other great Brazilians that have come before him, know soccer as well as other sports You got it, you know, I think they had a couple of Formula one races that are that Brazilian that have been top of the world too So it's the country is is starved in some ways

for athletic excellence, right? And so to do it, man, to do it with that kind of pressure too is all the more daunting. And so I'm just really appreciative of the progress he's made so far. We just wanna make sure everybody, our listeners out there, make sure we keep a healthy dose of perspective when we're watching this young man play and grow up right in front of our eyes.

Alvin Owusu (05:44.896)
Yeah, and I'll follow that with like one, I agree wholeheartedly there, but I think there is a reason why everyone is so excited about Yao Fonseca and the idea of Yao Fonseca. And I think it's, start to, in sports, right, within the realm of sports, especially here in the United States, and I'll focus specifically on us in the US since we are both in the United States and most of our listeners are as well.

Brands matter so much. Like you turn on ESPN, you can be pretty sure they're talking about one of two teams, right? The Dallas Cowboys and the Los Angeles Lakers. They're talking about the Cowboys, we're not even in football season. Hell, they have shows about football when we're not even close to the football season, right? And football was never ordained to be America's favorite sport, right? We turned it into that, right? And this is the kind of sports world

Torrey Hawkins (06:39.579)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (06:44.651)
like we live in here. And I think that's that kind of leads when we go over to the tennis side. One of the biggest differences in tennis between these other sports is usually because of the scoring, you can tell who is better than someone else in other sports by a good measure, right? By a good measure. Like if team wins, team A scores 120 points in a basketball team and team B scores 80, you're like, man, you got stomped, right? But in tennis, you take this match tonight,

Alcaraz beat Fonseca handily, four and four. Six four, six four. Right? And that's, we would call that a, that's a nice opening round match for Carlos Alcaraz. But the score looks really close, right? Tennis is a game of nuance and it's hard to tease out that nuance for those who are more casual fans. And I think there's also the comparison to be made, like why does the

brand of Yao Fonseca actually matter. And I always like to juxtapose him against Lerner Tien, because they're so close in age, but right now they're pretty far apart in the rankings, almost 20 spots. Like Lerner's a good 20 spots ahead of Yao. But you don't hear people getting excited on a Friday night about Lerner Tien playing against Carlos Alcares. You don't see Andy Murray tweeting, I can't wait for this Tien versus center match, right? Which he did.

today, right? Because I think everyone recognizes that what this kid could be is very important to our sport on the whole, right? We missed almost an entire generation of important players between the San Percis and Agassiz and the big three. Now granted, the big three ate that entire generation, but we almost had Stefano Sissapas being the leader of the 90s, if you know what I mean. And that's not...

Torrey Hawkins (08:23.182)
I agree.

Alvin Owusu (08:43.05)
that didn't work out so well. So I think like I agree with you in that, you know, a Friday night second round match in Miami does not matter. In the grand scheme of things, very few matches in tennis matter. They're all just drops in the bucket or flash bulb moments that tell you kind of where a player is right now, to your point, on their journey.

Torrey Hawkins (09:06.811)
right now.

Alvin Owusu (09:09.704)
on their journey. And I think it's important to put that all in context, but also circle back to something you mentioned in a previous episode. For someone to break into the top 10, you got to start beating players in the top 10. And if you're going to beat players in the top 10, you got to play them first. So if we, if we expect, and Mr. Fonseca aspires to be a top five player in the world, a grant, a future grand slam winner,

Torrey Hawkins (09:22.17)
I'd run.

Alvin Owusu (09:38.049)
Well, he's got to his head. He's got to get hit in the mouth by these guys first first and foremost and if we go back to back tournaments where he gets his first taste of center at a Masters 1000 and plays him tough six and six and gets his first taste of mr Alcaraz and a Masters 1000 one break in each set four and four Yeah, he didn't win the match. It doesn't matter if he doesn't win the match. He comes out of these two tournaments smarter and a better player That is that is my point

Torrey Hawkins (10:01.051)
100%.

Alvin Owusu (10:07.5)
along with the first matches of these rivalries, they matter, right? Like when you think of all the times Fed and Nadal played, there's a lot in the middle, there's all the Grand Slams and the finals and all that kind of stuff, but they also played for the first time, one time. And that was in what, 04 Miami, 04, right? You think about Agassi versus Sampras and their illustrious like, you know, battles back and forth. First time they played was in 1989 in Rome, right?

Torrey Hawkins (10:07.803)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (10:32.908)
We get, and then same thing with like Carlos and center, their first match of, I mean, their first match of significance was probably 20, 22 of the US open, but the first time they ever played was Paris 2021. Like we, get the first time one time. And now if we go three years from now and Fonseca is in the top 10 and he is not just hanging with these guys, but pushing these guys, we can exactly, we go back to the sunshine double of 20, 26 and we go, okay, we got it. got our first one against these guys.

Torrey Hawkins (10:53.935)
taking sets off of and so on. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:01.609)
in that two week span.

Torrey Hawkins (11:03.067)
Right, and I'll connect the dots to our current generation. The commentators, as much as I hate giving them credit, they made a great point about the first time Alcraft played Rafa. I think they mentioned it was 2021 or 2022.

Alvin Owusu (11:18.912)
I'm in 2021? Yeah, something like that. 21? Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (11:20.611)
And then lost to him. And then the very next year he beat him. I want to say it was in Madrid. as what they mentioned. So to my point, you but you had to see him first, right? And so, you get you talking with the reigning the reigning champ, you know.

At that time I'm not sure if he had pretty sure there was a period of time where he had a few more than The Novak did and I think Novak ended up getting the next the last the next few in the next couple of years while Right there toward the end when he when he and the doll were trading some some trade some barb so to speak but but bottom line Alvin I just want to make sure we are all You know as fans Patient enough to see this thing through and really can appreciate where this young man has had it. He's got got great outside

Alvin Owusu (11:52.011)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (12:07.0)
great future but let's not be you know let's not be so quick you have it takes time you know what I mean and how much time well it takes as long as it takes you know it takes as long as it takes for him to get his legs under him he looked good tonight and talking maybe more about the match itself I like that every time I watch him play I see something else in his game that I like

Tonight it was the serve, right? I had never really appreciated his serving. I his service improved, but I didn't realize he had that good of a change up. I didn't realize he had that good of an out wide kick. didn't think, never really, his forehand was, we always knew it was big and it's still big. In some ways, I'm actually almost not as impressed with his forehand in doing more things. He crushes the forehand, especially the forehand corner. But he doesn't necessarily have the same gun down the line, which is,

Alvin Owusu (12:53.524)
I was, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (12:59.389)
Typical yet 100 mile an hour plus for and you need a low clearance and a lot of runway. You know what I mean? So it's to be a big for him, but his step up is isn't as big. I almost felt he made a big forehand midway or maybe three one down on the first and crushed it and he blew about three or four errors in the next two games.

Alvin Owusu (13:04.588)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (13:17.292)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (13:18.459)
I'm like, I'm like, it's a death by forehand, you know what mean? So, well, how do you win? Well, he won by the forehand. So at some point, you gotta start to diversify a little bit. I thought that his speed is starting to pick up a little bit. He's not the best mover, but he's kind of a tall, lanky kid. He can get faster and get better at that just as he gets better with reads and plays players better, plays a little more.

kind of understands that tempo. But it's something that I was really impressed with the serve and the backhand impressed me the last match with center. I didn't realize his backhand was that good. But I thought he should have leaned it on the backhand a little more tonight. You know what I To be honest, and maybe gone a few more times line and kind of went behind him. I felt like Carlos matched up better.

to Yao, then Yao matched up to Carlos. I thought Yao surprised him. I thought he hit a couple of clutch passing shots. I don't think that he necessarily adjusted as quickly with various game styles and kept and did a few things. I almost felt like Alcara did about four five things on him to kind of keep him off balance and try different things and took advantage of opportunities to get him off when he wasn't expecting it. And I felt like

I felt like Yao did a great job of holding his own and not letting it get out of hand. He wasn't necessarily threatening as often as he would have liked. Again, a few points here and there, a couple missed inside and back and returns on the deuce, a couple of opportunities he had on that drop shot. There were some other things, they were right there, could have gone either way. But at same time, felt like he was, each time I watch him, there's something that sticks out to me that I say, wow, I didn't realize that

that good? that's what I like to see.

Alvin Owusu (15:03.577)
Yeah, I mean let's kind of stay there for a second because like the serve, I think it's a tale of, it's almost like you can look at it one of two ways, right? His serve will be a weapon, right? It is, you can already tell, like it's the whole, the shape of it, like what he tries to do with it, that sliced T on the ad side is that nasty tail on it, right? my goodness, like I mean it's going from, it's going from nine to three, or three to nine if you will, but he didn't serve as well today.

Torrey Hawkins (15:21.403)
We're strong.

Torrey Hawkins (15:30.372)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (15:31.18)
Right? And you can look at that as like a, he's still a 19 year old kid, played a tough match yesterday against Fabio Marizon, right? The tough three setter due to the weather had to come back the very next day, did not serve as big against Carlos as he did against Yannick. I looked at the, in kind of the average first mile per hour speed, 125 against Yannick, 121 here. It's just like, okay, that's part of just like being a professional tennis player. Like how do we, how do we maintain our level from one day?

to the next when we get these kind of weird scenarios of this would happen on the back end of like a 500. You're gonna be playing every day, right? So, you know, for him getting deeper into tournaments, like kind of thinking forward, because I think this is how we choose to look at any given match, especially for a young player, any given tournament, it's a checkpoint. So the next time that we see Fonseca match up against Sinner or match up against Alcáez or find himself in a situation where he has to play back to back days.

How does he make the jump? How does he adjust? Just wanna see some adjustments with the player this young. Just wanna see some adjustments. You made the comment about Carlos making him do some things and I think that was probably, that's the biggest difference if you use Fonseca as the litmus, the biggest difference between how Carlos and Yannick go about their business. The match against Sinner looked.

Torrey Hawkins (16:36.027)
100%. Adjustment is the key.

Alvin Owusu (16:57.553)
Fairly straightforward those boys are out there just smacking the piss out of the ball right is a Backyard kind of shootout whereas you would see when when y'all started to get loose especially on those like you know deuce court Cross-court rallies on the forehand Carlos was like now. We're not doing this. I'll go high-heavy to your backhand I'll give you some different shape. I'll give you something else to look at cuz I'm not I don't Old Carlos three years ago four years ago, but try to go through it

Torrey Hawkins (17:24.379)
Yeah, try to go try to go home and or go a little bigger and I think he realized not only was that his best shot he he knew enough that.

He couldn't do it as often. He could only do it a couple ways, going to his right or setting up at a standstill. He doesn't possess the best inside in, although he hit a couple big. And he, from a stationary position, it's weird, and you've known this as well as a player and as a coach, Alvin, certain players...

Alvin Owusu (17:47.967)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (18:00.183)
have a certain ball but they don't have all of the shots on that side. For an example, if Yao's got a huge forehand, his forehand deuce might be the biggest del potro of a missile I've seen in a long time. But it's hard to hit that same ball that hard when you're on the move.

There's other players that were good forehand that have a better on the run forehand. They show James Blake, tournament director there for the Miami Open. James forehand was okay. His inside out was pretty big. Inside in, he loved his inside in. James Blake's on the run forehand was an absolute howitzer. I don't know if off the standstill, if James had the kind of pace off that ball to...

Alvin Owusu (18:34.357)
You

Torrey Hawkins (18:44.035)
hit a ball 100 miles an hour off of a feed, so to speak. But get that brother on the move.

Alvin Owusu (18:51.103)
Somehow.

Torrey Hawkins (18:52.087)
James, and James passed, and James could clock the forehand, mock 50, when he was on the move. So I say that, and James's forehand arguably was one of the best shots in this game. So I say it to say it wasn't like, you we're not talking about a player that didn't have a forehand. know, Yow's got a forehand, but as he starts getting better, as he matures and kind of gets all the rest of the shots, I feel like he's really gonna have to.

pick up a few more patterns, a few more things. You even saw him try a few things that he wants to try, but maybe he hasn't been in that many rallies long enough off that forehand side to see it come back, to throw in a changeup. And we forget that Carlos was just there two or three years ago, and only with time has he been able to understand, and when it comes back, because it will, and when it comes back, I have the next pattern, and I'm pretty comfortable with keeping you in my web.

Alvin Owusu (19:31.302)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (19:48.005)
to speak and throwing the next next barrage at you which I think is what has made him the number one player that he is.

Alvin Owusu (19:55.711)
Yeah, and so let me, push this kind of question back to you when you're watching. I see Fonseca in this space right now where it's, it is apparent that he, that he can hang with these guys. But there's a, I mentioned earlier in the, right, yeah, yeah. But like I mentioned earlier in the show, right, hanging, like there's, you can lose four and four and that sounds close, but you also weren't, it wasn't close, right? Right, you weren't threatening. So like for him to move,

Torrey Hawkins (20:06.593)
It's It's hanging quite high.

Torrey Hawkins (20:20.635)
Right, you are a threat. Right.

Alvin Owusu (20:24.82)
from the position of like, I can hit with these guys, I can sometimes hurt these guys, to coming into these matches with a game plan and intent to dictate. I think that's the real turning point, right? Like that's where he, I still feel like he's like kind of like a kid running around hitting balls sometimes. As opposed to like, can't tell you, I can't obviously see what he's trying to get done from a,

Torrey Hawkins (20:47.235)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (20:54.122)
point to point, set to set kind of sample.

Torrey Hawkins (20:56.153)
I think we and you probably watched more than I have Alvin. I've watched the boy play five good matches in the over the start to finish. You know what I mean? This one getting around. Terrible matches to compare to right? But I guess what I'm getting at is that.

Alvin Owusu (21:03.722)
Yeah, yeah. And maybe Sandra and Alka-Raz are the best people to... Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (21:13.095)
And it's an important point to note because I don't think he has it down yet, right? We're looking for it. Let him figure it out first, you know? And then we can see him start to put matches together where we are starting to see a pattern. We're starting to see a few comfortable exchanges. Each hold that he had, I felt like he was breathing a bit of a sigh of relief. And yet ironically, I actually thought he was returning pretty well.

Alvin Owusu (21:41.286)
He did return well. He was in a lot of Carlos's game. 30 love a lot of times. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (21:42.907)
He was in a lot of return games and he was up left 30, obviously much to Carlos Chagrin. Anyway, the whole point of getting that is that I feel like he's still finding that. And I feel like over the course of the next year, he'll get that. He's gonna have to have a way of beating the 50 and out pretty routinely and matching up to certain styles a little better. He's gonna have to have a way to out hit out last.

You know, just...

weather, right? The top 20 through, you know, through 32, you know, that are in that range. Yeah. You start putting yourself in a grand slam mindset. It's a two week tournament. got to pace yourself a little bit. You got to be ready for all comers, but you still have to be, you got to play the smart matches smart and not, you know, and not try to gun your way through it. And you got to gradually get better with each match with the hopes of peaking in the second week, right? Not picking early at the same time. You've got to be able to play these guys a

more efficiently and be a lot you can't you can't be hitting you know

17 aces and get through a first second round match and Rely on that for rounds two three and four and I think that's what I'm getting at I think yeah I was gonna continue to get better and understand that a Lot of young players have that issue. They feel like they can only win on a good day They're only they can only win when they're playing well And that's part of becoming you mentioned part of being professional You got to be to win on a bad day You got to be able to get through a match on not your best day knowing that your next is gonna be a little better and you

Torrey Hawkins (23:20.061)
Other parts of your game can shine be it your fitness be it your forward be it your shot selection Be it I just know how to match up to this guy when I'm not hitting my huge foreign or making all my first serves and that there's a lot to be said for that and I don't think a lot of our a lot of the tennis playing or tennis watching faithful may not always understand how There's different ways to win and there's ways to let a player lose that you have to master because Two weeks is a long time and same with Miami. It's 10 12 days

It's not like same with, same with, you know, with, with any wells. These are not short tournaments. So what's the chances of you and I playing one bad match in a week.

Alvin Owusu (23:50.154)
10 to 12 days, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (23:58.883)
Pretty hot. I might be in the three or four days a week category by now, but I say it to say that's natural, right? And there'll be one decent time matching there. It's the other four that are gonna be that that's my level, right? So here you are now as a top player or player who's aspiring to go to the top. You gotta appreciate your, you don't know when that bad day's coming, right? You don't know when that good day's coming and you gotta play that same tournament regardless and I think that's really what we're starting to see. Hey, Alcara's got bounced out of this

Alvin Owusu (23:59.275)
Hi. Hi.

Torrey Hawkins (24:28.797)
from an early last year, you know what I mean? And the guy's got how many, youngest to win all four and he's got what, six or seven of them to his credit now? He got bounced out of this, you know what I mean? And so, you know, I saw earlier Opel could beat Draper who won in New Wells last year and played some phenomenal tennis. So it's tennis, man. And you you gotta appreciate that, you you're not gonna play your best every day. And that's why you've really got to have some more of these ways, these tried and true ways, you know, of beating people.

Alvin Owusu (24:30.579)
He did.

Torrey Hawkins (24:58.727)
and different ways to do it. Otherwise, trust me, that one time is gonna get countered or it won't be as sharp or as on as you'd like for it to be with the next opponent.

Alvin Owusu (25:00.745)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (25:10.43)
Yeah, and you just shot Soraya Palka like anyone can lose Soraya Palka. Hell, Novak lost Soraya Palka last year? Last year, last year, indoors? Like, it could happen. Especially 6-6. Of course he Right.

Torrey Hawkins (25:21.232)
of course it can. Especially 666. Riley's the newer version of, know, although with beer, don't think Isner ever had the beer, but he is the newer version of Isner slash, what was my big?

Alvin Owusu (25:39.494)
Evo like Karlovich maybe? Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (25:40.667)
Dr. Ivo, buddy, I want to know the stats on I have to ask Chagy Batigua. How many 7-6 sets did Dr. Ivo play over the over his illustrious career? I bet it had to be out. It had to be in the over 300 over.

Alvin Owusu (25:59.509)
Probably more sets played that went to tiebreakers than not. Right. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (26:03.035)
They're not right, you know what saying? So when you talk about a tiebreaker, I mean the guy, and he's not playing long. I mean his five centers maybe two hours.

Alvin Owusu (26:12.874)
That's a point, that's a good point. I wanted to transition over to just some stuff on the women's side. Ega, I think we've had some conversations about Ega over the last few, I would say weeks, just kind of getting a feel for where she is, what's she doing, where's she going, and then she had a less than fortunate result yesterday.

lost her opening round match, round of 64 against Magda Lynette in three sets. Had some comments after the match, she's in the woods right now. And I think not only do we see it, but for her to say it, to say as much, I'll probably fill up the tweet here somewhere at some point from an interview that she did. But she is a player who is struggling with her

Confidence right now I I would say most players do struggle with confidence at some point You know throughout the season throughout their career whatever whatever most people keep it pretty close to the vest She's she's out on front street with it right now like a little bit of like I don't really know what's going on I'm losing to players. I that I don't I'm not even playing well enough to be beating these players. I don't call them upsets I'm just not that good right now What was your what was your read on that when you like?

Torrey Hawkins (27:28.163)
and on her sleeve.

Alvin Owusu (27:40.563)
What you've seen from her on the court to the comments that she's making, where do you think the disconnect sits right now with our reigning Wimbledon champion?

Torrey Hawkins (27:51.075)
I think it's best to go back to the beginning. Number one, I have always felt Iga was, is our modern day Martina Hingis. She came in at a time when the big guns were not there just yet. She a very, very solid void in between, and this is Hingis' case, between Sellas and Serena's, in a sense, reign.

Alvin Owusu (28:07.709)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (28:20.385)
Serena had not taken that next step to be that next player and players like Davenport, Capriotti, they were continuing. I everybody was coming back to tennis and so on. And I may get some of the years and percent and the actual titles wrong, but in that space was when Martina Hingis was on fire. Her ability, her variety, her quickness, her feel, her striking, her way to match up against you was just second to none. We look back at history and

say yeah hard to do that though against Sharapova hard to do that against Serena hard to do that against Lindsay Davenport these ladies that are all six foot six foot or or darn near close venus was over six feet right and i think i think i think serena might be might be five eight five i think she's certainly no shorter and i say it to say and and brought whatever she lacked in stature she had in racket speed and i still think has one of the fastest serves on the tour from in whatever number of category you may mention so i say that

Alvin Owusu (28:55.399)
Right. Sarita,

Alvin Owusu (29:06.953)
Five, 10, isn't like there.

Torrey Hawkins (29:20.239)
to say.

You simply saw her relative to the competition and you understood it. We are now in that Martina Hengis in a sense, the rest of the crew has started to present themselves. They manifested themselves. Now you've got Rebecca and you've got Sabalinka. You've got a Nisa Mova. You've got some players that are bringing some very high MPH shots that are not allowing a player with a few less guns to

to go uncontested as she had before. And I think in this last couple of years, now that Sabalikas found her footing and you got, now you got Rebecca and starting to find her footing, it's just starting. And you talked about the Wimbledon win, that Wimbledon win came off the heels of a very, you know, a first time effort, you know, against Anissa Mova, which one tournament later, you saw those tables turned back on her again when she felt a little more comfortable with US Open. This to me is more, I say all that to say,

Let's come back to conversation looking, understanding history. She's had a extremely nice run because of her game style, because of her wins, when she won them. Now let's talk about right now. In.

I still see one of the best matches in this, disrespect to Coco. One of the best matches last year's French Open was Spiontek and Sabalinka. It was phenomenal tennis, that semi-final. Maybe one of her best matches of the year in my opinion, even though she won Wimbledon. Now, I saved that to say, and she won in a losing effort to Sabalinka, who went on to lose to the Coco. Another good match, but that match to me was much more entertaining, much more, I'm gonna say fiercely contested for lack of a better term.

Alvin Owusu (30:53.033)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (31:09.355)
Ega is coming up to her glass ceiling and the unfortunate thing is I feel Ega has defined herself by her success.

not her game, not her tactics, not her realism, not who she is. And if Ega wants to get back into the driver's seat of confidence and where her game is, it has to be with the understanding of the landscape. Not, I'm good because I win. It's, I win because I'm good. And if I'm not winning, I'm still good.

Alvin Owusu (31:23.145)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (31:48.183)
she's a tad bit better. And I'm going to go back to the the woodshed and figure out a few more things and a few more tweaks, but I'm still pretty good on a bad day. And I think that's going to help her get out of this little walk about she's she's going through right now because I really feel like you know, especially at the top world of pro sports. I mean, it's so it's the margins are so are so fine. You know, I feel like she's I watched that first set of gets heard in Lynette Alvin and she was well, it was vintage fiontech tennis. I mean, she didn't drop

points off in the first five games and and Magda I think she Magda held maybe finally at 5-0 to make it 5-1 and and there was a couple of lucky volleys and a couple of stretch points it was like you were happy she got on the board she just so happened to start the second set serving and I felt like you gradually see Ega kind of start to she went from trying to you know do her normal thing to I can't say if it was ran out of gas started to kind of pull off the gas a little bit started to kind of let her loose

a little bit she started hitting some loopers to the the height of the backhand which I'm like okay now you're going back to junior tennis a little bit and before you know it Magda was starting to play her on the rise ball come forward all the things that Ega should have been doing Magda she was allowing almost giving Magda the chance to do Magda's very very solid player tour professional been out there a long time she's hovered in that 10 through 20 25 range for for many years that I've known her and always had some good results

I don't know if she was as, and I say this with all due respect to Magda Lynette, not as...

tactically diverse to change up those things from Ega, Ega was searching for a way and stumbled into a couple of bad exchanges that gave the ball to Magna, a very solid ball striker that Magna wanted. And I felt like when I saw that happen, I said, okay, she's starting to question the way she wins. She's starting to question who she is. And that's all confidence, or in this case, lack thereof.

Alvin Owusu (33:50.194)
I'll add, I just wanna kind of feed in here some of the quotes that Ega had after the match, which kind of tie into what you just said, right? She said, was just a bad match for me in the second and third sets. For sure, it's tough to handle that when I don't, like when I played as well as I in the first set, either it's unconsciously or consciously, it's hard for me to change things and then my tennis kind of collapses. Like that's not, those aren't the kind of words that tend to come out of the mouth of a Grand Slam champion, a former world number one.

which is like, I don't know what to do in the middle of a tennis match when things aren't going my way. And I have this, like, you we were, I'm still workshopping it. I don't have it fully crystallized yet, but there's something about the intensity of Iga Sviatek that puts players on their heels when she comes out in the beginning of matches. The first hour on court with Iga is make or break. And back when she had the bakery stands up and she was serving out bagels and breadsticks all the time,

Those matches were, by nature of the score, very quick. She is a sprinter. She is a sprinter. It's 100 meters, 200 meters. But if you can stay close, she doesn't want to run 400 to 800 meters. That's a different race. And when you can get her into that kind of race, when you can get her into that kind of match, it's like, after the first hour, are you down 6-0-3-0?

Torrey Hawkins (34:56.089)
Yep. The rabbits, so to speak.

Alvin Owusu (35:19.323)
Or is it five four? And if you can stay within touching distance, get to, she gets a little not so sure of herself, given her own quotes, right? And then at that point, you've got yourself and part of her on your side. And that's when the Magna Linette losses start to creep in, right?

Torrey Hawkins (35:41.636)
look

little appears and and that's and it's unfortunate because if you think about it she was so much mental toughness and so much tact tactical prowess that she possesses it's like you didn't they didn't necessarily counter any of that you might have missed a few more first serves you may not have had the confidence to go for that same ball but your your game didn't fall apart you quit using it and I feel like that's what I saw on

the Magdala net match. we're not talking about the Sviatnitig versus Sabalinka where she knows she has that battle that grind the whole time. We're talking about her against players that I think she thinks she should beat and that's the middle part of the game with anybody. That's tennis. I just feel like there is

Alvin Owusu (36:19.868)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (36:31.131)
Unfortunately for her right now, there's butt in the water. Everyone knows the sharks are circling and they all kind of understand it. And if I'm a Magdalena, if I'm Julia Putinseva, if I'm a who's the other, Ekaterina Alexandrovna, mean, there's those level of players are now like, oh God.

Hope I get eager right now because they know she's not necessarily feeling the best in her game right now. Still going to be a tough day at the office. But to your point, if they can stay within striking distance and kind of keep it close toward the, you know, she could be, she can be beaten in second and third sets for her sake. I hope she gets this done. There's not been a more fiery competitor and a person who I've loved watching compete. There's things about her game that I don't like as a, as a purist, her forehand and their grip and everything is kind of heavy and kind of spinny and kind of.

There's all kind of things as the purest in me that I don't necessarily appreciate per se as much as I should. And there's always something about the bigger hitter, the cleaner striker that I always have, that your mind, the tennis purest in me likes to be drawn to. But you can't argue with how much she's maximized, what she's been given. And I love the way she competes. I'll be honest, Alvin, I even like the way she's being honest about her game and herself right now.

Alvin Owusu (37:50.938)
It's unique. It's unique.

Torrey Hawkins (37:52.509)
what she is, she's also very honest and transparent about it. So I can't be mad about that either. I just hope that she really doubles down on what got her there, which was resiliency and grit, not big forehand, not huge serve. If anything, were just, those were her weapons, right? Her mind, her fight, her competitiveness, that's her weapon. She just happens to have a decent forehand. She just happens to have some phenomenal returns. But those things were, in my opinion, forged out of competitiveness.

and fight and grit not necessarily off of ball speed and off of you know pure hand-eye and so to me to get back to that easy to double down on that Alvin easy to double down on competitiveness because you're competitor you know easy to double down on fight you're a fighter as opposed to doubling down on maybe a shot or two that you've never had you know what I mean can't say she's a huge all-court player well she's not going to create volleys in certain volley at this stage in her game she's not going to create a flat

forehand at this stage in her game. You got to double down on what you're really good at and just go ham on those few things. And I think if she continues to get back to that and get back to who she is, understand her landscape better, she's now amongst some other Grand Slam champs, I think she'll appreciate it a little bit better. Not take it easy on her, almost let her realize, look, the stakes have been raised and I'm going to, for me to be competitive, I got to do this in the third, you know what? I'm down with that. it. We'll get back to

Alvin Owusu (39:20.978)
You know.

Torrey Hawkins (39:22.193)
seeing some good ego tennis.

Alvin Owusu (39:24.168)
Speaking of blood in the water and tennis purists and not the biggest ball striker and won't slap a forehand and serve, it almost sounds like you're talking about Coco Golf, is another thing that I just, Coco won her opening round match today against Elizabeth Cochieretta, but it wasn't like she wasn't trying to lose that match.

Torrey Hawkins (39:38.937)
Mm.

Torrey Hawkins (39:52.515)
down and was down for the third.

Alvin Owusu (39:53.673)
I, yeah, yeah, she was down two on the third, came back and, know, series of broken serves and then some holds. It was was a, it was a, actually a pretty classic Coco match. You and I were talking about Coco a little bit last event and I mentioned something and now I can't unsee it. We talk a lot about the serve and the forehand, right? And I think the serve actually looked pretty decent today. I have a feeling that that will come.

Torrey Hawkins (40:04.955)
class.

Torrey Hawkins (40:19.567)
Yeah, agreed.

Alvin Owusu (40:24.252)
The forehand is the one that I do worry about the most. within the forehand, and this is, we're gonna dig into this thing, it's, a lot of people talk about the grips, right? Grips are one thing. But you see a lot of tennis players do a lot of things with lot of different grips, right? It's not the one you teach, but if it'll win you two Grand Slams, you can probably work with it. The issue that I have, right, yeah, it's, okay, okay, fine.

Torrey Hawkins (40:45.892)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (40:52.664)
The issue, which I think is fixable, but is glaring when you look at it. Earlier you mentioned people who have, like if you have a stroke, like you have a big forehand, right? It's not just it being big in one instance, like is it big down the line? Is it big when you're set up? Is it big when you hit it inside in really well, hit it cross well? Just all different flavors of it, right?

Coco's footwork on her forehand, that face right there, yeah, that one, I make the same one. And I mean this with all due respect, and I mean this with a true sense of curiosity. What in the hell is she doing on that fore, it's like the right leg just does not want to join the party with the right side of the body. I think you might have called it out at one point.

Torrey Hawkins (41:43.173)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (41:46.616)
trying to open stance forehand, not hitting open stance forehands when she's moving to the right and doing this kind of leaping off of one foot to the other foot situation. Help me understand what you would do from a coaching standpoint if you've got a player with obviously all the ability coming oozing out of her, right? An athlete off the charts like no, no.

Torrey Hawkins (42:13.288)
as athletic as they come, period.

Alvin Owusu (42:15.589)
Backhand clean is Christmas. Competitor like no one's competitor, right? You're already sitting here top five player in the world, two Grand Slams in the bag, but to me it just looks like the right side of the body does not want to play. Like hands and feet do not want to play on the same tempo whatsoever. If you're given that scenario with this type of player, how does Coach Hawkins take care of this?

Torrey Hawkins (42:37.271)
Number one, I would...

I would address her ideal contact point off of the right foot. She's going to be

Alvin Owusu (42:47.207)
Hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (42:52.163)
She's going to be, I'm gonna break this down to you in three ways and I think all three are important so that's why I'm gonna break it down in this one. Number one, what is the most comfortable stance? I think it's open stance for her. But I think there is a step up, when I had a step up for an oven, I'm talking about I load right.

but I do a bit of a kickstand step. call it my load step on my left, right? A lot of players can go to the right and load and yet it's not the exact same thing. A true step up for him to me is a right foot and then you drop the left foot to have a bit of a load on the right. So that way your weight's actually centered. You're not leaning. Coco can only hit the forehand when she's on the move to it.

which tells me that she's not really transferring her weight right and she doesn't ever truly know where she is with her feet and with her own balance and leverage. Number one, fix that because that's gonna be the form that we're gonna have to go to task on. That's gonna be our setup forehand, our step up forehand, our approach forehand, our attack return to serve forehand. That is gonna be the hammer. What can you do? Semi open, but it is right foot.

Alvin Owusu (43:58.824)
So it's a semi-open, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (44:04.281)
Where do I want it? And I think it's more about she overruns more balls, Alvin, than anybody I've ever seen. And this little funky buggy whip hop on the right leg number that goes heavy thin on the line is just a patch. It brings the ball to the person's backhand. They drill it back to her backhand and she's just so darn fast, she can get out of that corner of the backhand side when they hurt her. And then she might, if they hit two more there, she might have the chance to go backhand big herself up the line.

Number one, fix the forehand and get her arm away from her body and let her be able to actually rotate. We might do a full day of medicine ball throws, you know, just to make the whole body flow like it should. I'd put a bunch of strap on the back of the fence, put her on a belt and have her do swivels all day long just because she has to get that feeling back or perhaps for the first time and understand how you can rotate through the shot. That's number one, but that has to

Alvin Owusu (44:42.471)
Hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (45:02.941)
That's number one. Can't move on if you ain't got that. What's that? You got that right. Open stance and rotate until right shoulder, right hip and foot all follow suit and that swivel or flip turn as I've called it before is what has to happen and do it copiously until there's... And then from there, phase two, we have two...

Alvin Owusu (45:06.853)
Right, left, right. Right, left, right with the feet. Semi-open stance.

Torrey Hawkins (45:31.311)
We have an on the move and on the run.

Right. And now we have the understanding of how to load either mini swivel or big flip turn swivel. We're full fledge on the run and we decide how big, how clean it needs to be hit and where line across. She's going to be good enough to figure that one out, but she has to get the mini. What I call the mini flip is what I'm going to do a little bit of a slide of my left foot. I'm going to keep that dynamic load a little bit and let myself swivel to the right because I'm not full fledge on the run, but we got to get out all this buggy whipping when I'm

But I'm not really hurt yet and her speed she ain't really hurt yet She's too fast to be hurt that often and then of course the full swivel. I'm on the dead run I'm getting past the alley I got to just take it down the line and I got to just clean it and I think with it with as much grip as she has on that thing She can get that ball low enough. She's done before heck. did against Apple Inc in the French That was one of the shots I felt that that arena didn't think she could hit and she hit it multiple times almost out of desperation So I think she kind of stumbled on it even that

and realize she can do it. The clay let it sit up a little bit more at the same time she showed it. And here's the last thing I think, Alvin.

And this is, this is where it really starts coming back. It's her court position. She hugs the baseline so darn much that you really can't get a good rip on the ball. You're having to lift. Most players that had a heavy or a spinnier ball are a little bit off the baseline and they move in and take the back end on the rise. Coco hugs the baseline on both sides. So she's almost in a tough spot. She's putting herself and her grip and that forward in the worst possible scenario. Not only is she fast enough to overrun the ball,

Torrey Hawkins (47:11.658)
She's now overrunning it and it's by her socks. So now she has to lift.

And the only thing getting her out of that jam is her speed. And if you're relying on that, if you're causing yourself that issue and only able to get out of that issue because of your gifts, you're not using the gifts like they should be to help you, using the gifts to kind of buy you time and tread water. So that's the first couple. Get her right side and the load and the exact contact point that she needs mastered.

figure out the on the move slash on the run scenario and get good at it. And number three, address the court position because I feel those three things, even with current grip.

I think those three things if she could address the spacing issue, if she could address the on the move slash on the run issue and then the core position issue, I think her forehand isn't that far off, but it's going to take a little bit of some doing. And I think that last one, Elvin, the core position thing might be the toughest for her because that's the habit. You can change the forehand and make sure the grip is there, make sure the conduit points there. That'll feel good to you. But her core position, that may be the toughest one to address because she does

hug the baseline so much that it's going to be tough for her if she doesn't make a true mindset change on that and really work on that one a lot because it ain't like her backhand. You just can't do that same thing on that side.

Alvin Owusu (48:37.607)
So then let's go down that path a little bit, right? Because this was something that I was very adamant about, I remember the last podcast, maybe a couple back about how your core position, relative to the baseline, your standard position needs to match not only your technical setup, but also your game style. And when I look at Coco in that way, it's almost a tale of two different players, right? On the backhand side, she...

Torrey Hawkins (49:01.752)
So.

Alvin Owusu (49:04.871)
plays it like everyone else in the WTA plays it. She plays it close to the line. She likes to drive it and she can, right? She sees really well off the left side of her body. Balance on the left side is fantastic. Like lighten a opposite of the forehand side where she can hit the step up. She can hit the open stance. Like she can hit all the things you need to hit on the backhand side. But.

Torrey Hawkins (49:09.967)
Yep. Well.

Torrey Hawkins (49:26.667)
open and square or turn on the run step up then doesn't matter correct keep going

Alvin Owusu (49:29.915)
step up, all of it. But then she gets a little stuck. It's almost like she needs to work this kind of diagonal of coming up on the backhand and being aggressive there and then getting back to a deeper neutral to be able to give herself more time on the right side for the forehand. And that is like, I am a 90s clay court player on one side of my body and I am a modern day hardcore player on the other side of my body.

Torrey Hawkins (49:59.182)
side.

Alvin Owusu (49:59.577)
It's does she then need to give up a little bit on the backhand side? Like position wise? Because you're not gonna dictate off that side, right? It's a really nice shield. It's not a weapon, it's not a sword, it's a nice shield. the backhand is, it's, I mean, can one build an entire game plan around backhands?

Torrey Hawkins (50:07.022)
It's a great.

Torrey Hawkins (50:14.135)
throw it with the forehand.

Torrey Hawkins (50:23.099)
I it's a great question. Number one, no. However, if the shield is strong enough, can be both an offensive and a defensive weapon. I know what you're saying though. You're saying does she need to get the...

I'm going to call it the pre-drive ball. Does she need to have that spinnier, deeper ball before she goes ham on that on the rise drive backhand? And I agree with you. I think she can cheat with her footwork to take the backhand early whenever she can. I just feel she has to do more of a, if you think about what a 120 degree angle looks like.

Alvin Owusu (51:02.468)
Right, yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (51:03.003)
That's her angle on the back end and the other one's a flat line. She has to go right. But right now she's doing it literally at a 180, you know, kind of a line across the baseline itself. And I feel she needs to back that up about three to five feet on the forehand side, get some spacing, add some shape, add some rip. But she also needs, I think the spacing is so key over there. She doesn't understand it. She doesn't load well. She doesn't hold it long enough. And because of the grip, you almost have to hit it later. People don't understand that.

the more over your grip is, you gotta let it sit and you gotta it's gotta be closer to your body you know I mean only when you're a little more on the eastern side

Alvin Owusu (51:34.436)
You gotta let it sit, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (51:41.837)
Do you have the ability to extend that hand? Semi-western even. But buddy, better have that backswing already in motion by the time you come through because it's literally just in front or even with your knee. So if I'm open stance, that open stance, that semi-open, I am just in front of that knee on that situation. And I have to tell you, Alvin, as far over as she is, she needs to be old school, Sergey Barisategu over there. She's got to that ball darned by her right kneecap.

just swing like that and bring every part of her body around on that right side. And it just doesn't seem like that's where she's at. And maybe that's part of the problem. She's been, she's being told X, Y, and Z off the footwork with said grip, which you do if you have certain things, but you don't do if the grip doesn't allow you to do that. It's just not, and it's not anatomically, it doesn't match to your point, which is probably why. And then you see her stepping over the left foot. You see her stepping out with the right foot. Sometimes you see her

stepping with two steps on the right foot. It just looks awkward, you know, sometimes and then we see the forehand breakdown, but if it is, I don't think she's comfortable knowing the ball she wants off that side and she's darn sure not hitting it in the right spot for conducive with said grip. And so that's what I said, the spacing, the on the move versus on the run and how and where she really wants it. Right. And then of course the court positioning. I think those three things you have to, I could be

Alvin Owusu (52:48.515)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (53:11.581)
missing another piece of it, for time's sake, those three things will be where I would start.

Alvin Owusu (53:15.91)
But I'm gonna, I'm just gonna ask one more kind of clarifying question here. there is a, there is a who she, there's a best version of Kukulgolf's forehand. And then there is the forehand that you would want a top professional women, a woman tennis player to have. I don't think, and I wanna hear your opinion, I don't think she can ever hit the ball like a, a, one of these other women on the tour, right? That just.

Torrey Hawkins (53:33.517)
sure.

Alvin Owusu (53:45.575)
We're probably a little too far past that and sometimes it is a matter of just like does your right eye pick it up well enough for you to have the timing to do it? It seems like it's more of a why don't we just work around what we've got? We can get the footwork better and the footwork gets better I think to your point about if you understand where that ball needs to be in relation to your body for you to produce the best ball that you can produce with the technique and grip and

Torrey Hawkins (53:54.171)
For sure.

Torrey Hawkins (54:08.891)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (54:14.724)
shop production that you have.

Torrey Hawkins (54:17.113)
Right, right.

Alvin Owusu (54:18.928)
That's probably where we are. It can get better.

Torrey Hawkins (54:20.667)
It's where she's gonna be, unfortunately even right now, she's not there now. Coach Areto kept tagging.

that ball to her for almost every time. And I almost feel like there was a couple of exchanges there at the two, at the two, 0 to two, one game. And then a few more changes that two, all the three, two game where she was in there and she just missed, she just overheard a couple of on the rise shots that was really telling. But I felt her game plan was correct. What she was trying to do was correct. The heck she took her three sets and was almost right there. She, the,

The scouting report is now continuing to be you know where to go, you know how to beat her and I think didn't Coach Hereta, she, honestly, it wasn't recent. And last year, wasn't Coach Hereta the one that beat, did she knock out JPEG and Wimby or something like that?

Alvin Owusu (55:04.71)
She beat her in Doha. Yeah, yeah, she beat her recently.

Alvin Owusu (55:12.418)
Wimbledon, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (55:14.043)
So she's clearly a player continuing to be on the rise and she's certainly that that wasn't a flash in the pan win. But I say it to say, it's a flatter ball. It's a clean ball. She's almost a kind of a different version of you her countryman, Jazzon Padalini because she takes the ball very early, very clean on the rise. And I feel like her grips and her strokes match what she does well. She's you know, she's not that tall. She takes the ball really early. She has nice compact swing. She takes the ball very clean on the rise and her strokes a little more conventional.

for that game style. I just feel like it's funny we're just talking about Ego because you said we reminded you but I feel Ego gets a ton of pop off of that grip and that forehand. Her prep is way better. She completely brings the whole right

Alvin Owusu (56:01.337)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (56:01.805)
right through and she gets about as much drive out of a spinny ball as you can with that grip and I feel like that's kind of that needs to be a lot but her footwork on that side and her rotation on that side are so much better and I feel like that's where Coco has to be and I feel like Coco's trying to she's trying to play either too big or too heavy with the ball that's naturally spinning you ain't gotta do nothing but with that grip but try to flatten it out as best you can you know what mean and just just and just just go big and trust it you

Because you're not, it's never gonna be crazy heavy or you'll roll it too high and too thin. It's never gonna be flat because the grip won't allow it. But you can bring it down and you can have that spinny be a little bit lower and that's really all you're looking for anyway. She's not hitting it anatomically that way to drive the ball. know what I mean? think, so she takes a page out of Ega's book. I think her form could improve within weeks. Dare I say days.

Alvin Owusu (57:00.583)
Interesting, and if, know, unfortunately, EGAs former coach, Thomas Wideroski, is not available. I think he's coaching Naomi Osaka, so we'll have to see. I think that's a good place to put a pin in it. That was fun. Appreciate you jumping on here late night to kind of cover that Alcara response, that good match. But with that being said, I'm Alvin, that's Tori, best of three, we are out.

Torrey Hawkins (57:15.163)
hey.