Belinda Bencic’s Backhand and the Real Demands of Clay Court Tennis

Alvin Owusu (00:00.83)
And welcome to another edition of the best three podcast. I'm Alvin, that's Tory, and we are coming to you in this transitional space. I say it's the most wonderful time of the year moving from hardcore to clay court. What's going on on the tour right now? Men are kind of all over the place. Couple 250s. Women are in Charleston for 500. Next week we got Monte Carlo and Stuttgart, I believe, respectively. So things are starting to ramp up.

Torrey Hawkins (00:12.061)
you

Alvin Owusu (00:28.514)
But so we're gonna take this time to just kinda talk about what that looks like kinda going from hard court to clay court. Some of the things that I saw in person while I was in Charleston last week. I was in Charleston for a couple days at the Women's 500. And talk a little bit about Ega and her new team and her new training, vis-a-vis training base. But before we get into all that, TH, how you doing?

Torrey Hawkins (00:55.045)
I'm good Alvin. are you? How's you been? You've been doing a that's that's two in a row right there Miami and now Charleston. mean, you know what I'm saying? I'm hoping that you know at some point there's some frequent flyer miles and there's some they need to have a passport for tennis tournaments visited. You know what I'm saying? You you.

Alvin Owusu (00:59.982)
That's two in a row.

Alvin Owusu (01:11.576)
That'd be dope. That'd be dope.

You know what it is? It's Novak Ajokevich's win list is what it is. This is all the tournaments that exist and since I've won them all, here they are.

Torrey Hawkins (01:20.251)
Is that what it is? Right, right, right, Right, well that's, I'm just saying that would be, I was just saying that's a lot. And good for you for putting in work.

Alvin Owusu (01:32.422)
It's not just work, I mean it's a labor of love, let's be honest. I love being on site at these tournaments, especially Charleston. It reminds me of my junior tennis days, right? It's a very chill facility, very different than the Miami Open. And we'll get into that a little bit later in some of the things that I saw and maybe even show some of the things that I saw and kind of talk through that stuff. But where we are right now in this transition of the clay court, getting in the clay court season up and rolling, I wanted to, you know,

Torrey Hawkins (01:36.221)
That's

Torrey Hawkins (01:51.079)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (01:59.663)
I found that our listeners join us to become smarter tennis fans, right? I think that's a fair takeaway from the old best of three podcast and we're gonna deliver on that. Wanna get into, from your standpoint, what are the things to be focusing on as we go from watching a lot of hardcore tennis and going into clay court tennis, really gotta get into the difference in the way that the players are trying to move, how they might switch up their tactics.

and what kind of implications this has, the surface change actually has on some of the matchups that we've been accustomed to seeing and why. So I wanna start with the movement, because I think it's the most important thing. So if you're working with a player and you guys have spent the last, better part of the last, gosh, since last summer, right, on hard court, because we went indoor, and then now finishing up the Sunshine Double,

And now we're going on to clay court. How do you start preparing for that? How do you start getting the player accustomed to some of the changes that are related to movement when you go from hard to clay court?

Torrey Hawkins (03:08.933)
Number one, I have to understand my player. Are they American? Are they? Very, very simply, if I've got a player that's from South America, a player that's from Europe, a player that's from anywhere else that has played any, even a player from Florida is a little bit better than most players from the United, from the rest of the States where they don't play a ton on clay.

Alvin Owusu (03:17.324)
What do you mean by that? Why do you bring that up?

Torrey Hawkins (03:35.725)
and just like a kid from Florida may not be as adept playing indoor bang bang boom tennis.

because having not played much indoor, the same thing goes for that same kid from say Michigan, you know what I mean? From downtown Detroit or I should say suburbs of Detroit, who will play in a very wet, a very slow clay court type of game. I have to understand who I'm dealing with. And let me say this and I'll go back to the American part in a second. There's only so much you can do.

Alvin Owusu (03:52.452)
Come on now. Come on now.

Torrey Hawkins (04:09.475)
right? There's band-aid, there's surgery, right? Going into the clay court season, a lot of time we're talking band-aid. We are getting through the clay court season. For us Americans and top juniors, we're getting through the clay court tournaments. In some cases, only a tournament or two, right? We're not talking about a season. We're talking about one or two events. So you're really just trying to go in there and quite frankly trying to maximize what you can do with, and that is what you normally do.

Now we're talking about Pro Tour, so there's many more tournaments. It's probably roughly two months worth, eight to 10 events, give or take, going into the French, right? So it's not a very quick ramp up per se.

So you as the American who hasn't had a ton of clay court experience, you're just trying to maximize and you're trying and you hope to give you early morning, hopefully give you middle of the day matches where the clay is a little drier and you can bang the ball a little bit and it feels a little more normal. You hope it ain't freshly swept and freshly sprayed down because that boy is a slow monster. And that's the thing with clay that I noticed a years I was on the tour with some players is it's so different from morning to afternoon to late.

depending on when they groom the courts and the temperature. you know the red the terrible too can be tricky but do you have any prior experience? Do you move well? Do you change direction well? Are you lighting your feet by nature? Otherwise again band-aid or surgery what

What you've done is what we're probably gonna do here. We're just trying to make sure we kind of really understand how we can match up patterns to best maximize what we do. And let me start there and then I'll let you ask whatever you wanna ask. I don't know what direction you wanna take it because the clay court is in itself Pandora's box. And I've seen a lot of coaches, yours truly included that have tried to make a player move like a clay court player.

Alvin Owusu (05:47.628)
Yeah, no, that's fair.

Torrey Hawkins (06:02.141)
for the very short clay court season and it takes years. mean at best you're gonna get a player to...

handle being redirected or having a person go back behind them and handle certain things. And so I just think that's that whole clay court. I'm going to call it a clay court learning curve is is years long. It's not it's not weeks long. It's not months long. It's years long. And so you're going to get better at it over time. And if you really do it right, you train on clay half the time during the during the week all year. And then you go to hard court.

Alvin Owusu (06:37.952)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (06:41.927)
for your tournament and that way you're always learning so by the time click where it comes around, it's not so foreign to you. And I know back in the day, several 20 years ago, 30 years ago, shoot, maybe even 10 years ago for some players, it was all hardcore and you played on clay every once in when it rained or you played on clay, get ready for click where it's season. And that recipe to be, you know, that's recipe for disaster because you know, just enough to be dangerous, just enough to, you know, to twist an ankle out there and think you know what you're doing.

Alvin Owusu (07:11.629)
So there's a difference obviously between hard and clay, but even within clay courts, there's a difference between American green clay and the actual true European red clay. I remember when I worked at a tennis academy in central Texas and we raised money to put in two clay courts and raised a lot of money and actually put in red clay. So they flew it in from Europe. We had red clay.

Torrey Hawkins (07:34.321)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (07:37.344)
and it turned into a little stopover for, we would get a decent amount of tour players popping in before heading off to Europe for the clay court swing. the point that you made about not only regional differences here in the States, where you grow up, where you grow up playing tennis for American players, and then also the, there's only one clay court Grand Slam. We have one clay, we have one grass.

Torrey Hawkins (07:43.623)
So come back. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (08:06.283)
we've got two on hard, right? So, and the season itself is, it is a season for us fans, we're at home, there's lots of clay court tournaments from, you know, April 1 all the way through the end of the French Open, is in like the first week of June. So we've got, we have 11 weeks, but really the players themselves are going to play at most four events, maybe five before they get to Roland Garros. So it is a pretty, it is a pretty.

Torrey Hawkins (08:29.65)
Right.

Bye.

Alvin Owusu (08:34.461)
And then the rest of the year they're not on clay unless some of them are choosing to go play clay court events in South America or different parts of Europe depending on their particular skill set, what they grew up on. But for the most of the time it's not a clay court based tour. So being good on it has a limited return on investment but there are a lot of tournaments in this space. If you do do well, you can rack up. So movement is one thing, right? And we'll kind of, let's talk about that.

So I was, when I arrived in Charleston, get out to the practice court, it's kind of first thing in the morning, and I'm going out to watch Jessica Pagula and Madison Keys, or practice, and right next to each other. And I'm right there on the fence, right next to Jessie, and I'm watching her work, watching her move. there is a, when we talk about sliding on clay, right, everyone talks about sliding on clay, and that is a thing that one does on the surface. But there is a unique difference between

sliding to stop and sliding into a ball, right? I'm let you explain those two and the differences and how beneficial it is to be able to do the latter as opposed to just the former.

Torrey Hawkins (09:37.959)
more.

Torrey Hawkins (09:50.065)
Right. I will add to that and there's choosing not to slide. So you can actually strike and be sure footed enough to be in balanced enough to hit the ball clean without needing to. A lot of players learn to slide, but they will be on the run. They'll hit the ball and they will slide two feet, sometimes three feet if they're really good sliders.

Alvin Owusu (09:55.693)
Mm.

Torrey Hawkins (10:18.749)
past the ball, actually puts them at disadvantage. Why? Because they are now three feet and 1.5 seconds past the point of impact. And so now, unless your ball you hit had a crazy amount of spin, you are behind. You are behind time, you are behind court position, and you might even be off balance because by the time you come back into the mix,

It's so easy to go behind you because you now, you're now turning and running to the other side to catch up, leaving the space that you just left from wide open. And a good clay court player picked that up rather quickly. If you are sliding into the ball, you've had some experience on clay, you understand it. And so now you are sliding before the hit.

and toward the end of your slide, you're making contact. And the best clay cores do that. They do that without even thinking. They've measured the slide. They know how much they need to slide. They're not sliding unnecessarily. It's a measured slide. No different than a lot of good kids in here in the States can slide on hard court. They will slide on the run ball. They will slide to run down the drop shot. They will run full speed to slide into the hard, before they reach the net, knowing that they'll slide, certainly at the time. All of it is nuanced and they understand how

far they're going to go and what they need. But the same thing goes double, if not triple, on the clay. And then as I mentioned that last part about knowing not to slide, getting your feet set, being on top of the clay, you don't always have to slide. You can step in and crunch when you have the right kind of ball, but it certainly requires you having a very good feel for the balance of the ball, a very good strike so you can take that chance when you need to.

because you don't get many of them, right? And often it's a game of patience. There's a, there's a, there's a point, there's within a point, there's two or three setups, there's several resets. And then there's the ability to say, okay, no, not yet, not yet. I don't have you exactly where I want you. You're not off balance enough me to take this ball. And I don't want to get into an on the run rally with you just yet, because I don't, I don't like that matchup right now for me. And I want to pick apart that ball of yours when you're on

Torrey Hawkins (12:26.449)
move going sideways or backwards or wide or short and they know they're looking for that kind of ball. So you're to get a lot of the European South American types that are that are very adept at at building the point and building it multiple times are very patient. They're very tactical and they're very somewhat even say surgical with the way that they do that. So that all is under movement because at some point if your movement ain't there it's gonna break down.

Alvin Owusu (12:27.245)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (12:54.609)
And so that's where I think you start to notice that sliding too far, not sliding unbalanced enough, again, just not having your slide in sync with your strokes and with your tactics.

Alvin Owusu (13:07.893)
And I'm gonna break that down just a little bit. for those who are watching clay court tennis at home and you can kind of visualize this when you're watching tournaments, there is a, let's say there's a forehand hit out to the deuce corner, player on hard would run, run, run, run, run, plant the right leg, hit the ball, right? Boom, hit through, return. A player who is less adept on clay might run, run, run, run, run, hit that ball.

take another step, slide, stop, and then start their return back to the middle. A player who is well versed on clay, exactly, will run, run, run, start their slide as they approach that corner, hit the ball, and almost come to a complete stop and change direction as they're finishing the stroke. So it's almost like their movement almost mimics what they would be doing on a hard court, but their...

Factoring in the hole the surface underneath me is moving part, okay

Torrey Hawkins (14:09.701)
and have two or three bunny hop split steps in between ready for the next ball so that they're ready. And that's me for their own time for the next one and getting the best jump on it to do it again.

Alvin Owusu (14:15.402)
Right. So they're on time when they get back.

Alvin Owusu (14:22.824)
It was interesting for me to see as I'm watching the women, their first competitive action on clay court, because we just finished our parkour season, how many of them do and versus do not slide into balls? I'll use Jessica as an example, even though Jessica grew up in the Florida area. Did she move down from Hilton Head? No, she was Hilton Head, right? She was at Stearns, I believe.

Torrey Hawkins (14:51.239)
Buffalo, originally, obviously. Don't eat a much-flavored buffalo. Right. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (14:52.812)
Sure, yeah, Well yeah, I guess that makes a lot of sense. But a lot of, you know, hit run through, slight slide, still getting her feet underneath her maybe. We'll see as this progresses.

Torrey Hawkins (15:05.568)
And was a harder hitter, sorry, was a harder hitter, a driver, not a heavier, you know, by time and put the ball up out of the strike zone kind of a play. Even when she was younger, I remember when Jess was probably 11 or 12. my boy, shout out to my boy Adam Guski, who was working with her even at a young age. There was a lot of, know, she was, she drove the ball. She still drives the ball quite well, by the way. I say that to say, just to add to your point, the type of ball she was hitting.

You know what I mean? It wasn't a style that would have allowed her to really build or develop a lot of long points, you know what I mean? Let alone move well on the clay from time to time and to get redirected a lot. She wasn't in the rally that long.

Alvin Owusu (15:46.005)
No, and she's also a I want to play from the middle out, use leverage, hug the baseline. That does not scream a lot of open stance. She doesn't really open stance by default. She tends to want to close that stance up. Someone like Madison Keys, shockingly enough, moves very well on the clay. Madison slides into balls, really gets out leverage on the outsides of her legs on both forehand and backhand side. And for someone who is...

Torrey Hawkins (16:02.877)
Pretty good.

Torrey Hawkins (16:11.943)
And for me, it's six feet tall, right?

Alvin Owusu (16:13.654)
For being six feet tall and known as a power player, she actually hits a very, like obviously her forehand is big, but she also hits it with enough good shape, yeah, to where she handles herself on clay. Like she looks like it's native and she is a South Florida girl as well. So that's another, know, that's another, I think she's from Florida. She is from Florida, yeah. Yeah, so those are kind of like the two.

Torrey Hawkins (16:23.037)
It's great.

Torrey Hawkins (16:35.227)
Yeah. I'm from the Valley, my group played a lot in Florida, I think. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (16:40.234)
Okay, and then someone like Eva Jovich, I got a chance to watch her practice for a good bit and chat with her father for a little bit. And she, we'll get to her in a little bit, but moves quite well on the clay, even though she's from California. She's a good mover. Athletes adapt.

Torrey Hawkins (16:53.277)
she's a good mover, right? She's an athlete, a champion of the Just, athlete to adapt. So that, and that's what I saying back to the, and that was my last piece I was gonna mention about who do I have? Who are we talking about? Are they a good mover by nature, right? Because a good mover is gonna understand how to move and how to handle the footwork needed for that to find that rhythm in that groove. A quick side out, but it's very similar.

Alvin Owusu (17:06.796)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (17:22.555)
Ironically talking about Yannick Center and grass court and I told you on this podcast I said he hasn't yet this is maybe one last year He hasn't yet figured out how to move on the grass. He slides well in hardcore He slides well I said when he learns how to understand a little bit of a slide on the grass I said Yannick Center is gonna be dangerous this past year He's learned how to slide He's learned how to move on the grass court to my point a good mover right will adjust he will adapt

Alvin Owusu (17:49.036)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (17:50.873)
or she will adapt and so I don't think it'll take Eva long to really master that and get much better at it. She seems like a little more of a hardcore player the way she strikes the ball, much like a Jess Pagula, kind has that kind of a clean ball, but she moves very, very well, very unbalanced, very even on either side. She takes step ins, step outs, step backs, step ups, all very well on both sides. She's just very measured, very clean. You rarely see her out of balance and out of position. So that, as I say, it won't take her long.

Alvin Owusu (18:19.648)
Yep, yep, and then, you know, kind of looking at the types of players who will eventually, who typically do well on clay. Those who like to play on the front foot, and I'm those who have a preference of squaring off their stances, again, similar to Jessica wanting to play from the middle out, don't typically do as well because a lot of clay, a lot of points on clay courts, especially at the pro level, end up being played.

in the outer thirds. There's a lot of lateral movement involved here. So when I, kind of like quick back of the napkin, not math, but rule of thumb is like, think about the players that you see hit open stance forehands, like true open stance forehands, go outside foot, swivel to inside foot, and do it with competency. Those are typically the ones that translate well to clay court.

Obviously, like, Ega is a prime example. Arena, as big as she hits it, like, Arena hits open stance very, very well. Obviously, she dominates on the front foot, but that's just because she hits the crap out of the ball. But when you get her moving out laterally, she sticks that right leg down, swivels those hips. And then again, why Coco generally does so well on Klay, like, her default is almost hitting open stance, and that's, it's, yeah, it's kind of, it's built for that.

Torrey Hawkins (19:38.557)
Exactly. And the play gives her just enough extra time where she's on time even though she was late. And her speed gets her there. So she gets there and I saw a bunch of times in last year's French. She gets there almost surprised herself that she got there so early. She's able to do more to the ball than she thought and more than you thought because A, she's fast and B, she can move on the clay.

upgrades her shot where most players get there and have to downgrade the shot because it they what they thought they had upon arrival they don't they no longer have and I think look was the flip she might actually be better you know on the clay as she gets there and has a little more time can actually slide into the ball and oh hey wait a second I can go hard line here I didn't realize I was gonna get there that well and I think that's one that's one of the beauties of Coco's game is her athleticism and balance is so good that she's able to hurt you

where she wouldn't necessarily hurt you as much on that same ball. She looked to reset, bring you back to her backhand on clay. She has a few more options to go and she didn't mind which way you run her because she's good either way.

Alvin Owusu (20:45.397)
Yeah. Let's continue down that path a little bit, because I want to talk about how the surface change has different implications on certain matchups. So we just saw, we just saw Eega, I'm sorry, not Eega, Arena against Coco on hard court in the final of Miami. Obviously we saw them in the final French Open in last year. How does that matchup change when we're on hard court versus clay court?

Torrey Hawkins (20:58.225)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (21:11.217)
The easiest way for me to explain it, hard court is taking away time. Clay court is taking away space or adding space or time on a hard court. Arena Sabalenka can take away time. She has a big serve. She has big returns. She hits the ball beautifully well and she will take away minimum two tenths of a second per shot up to half a second on any random ball.

Okay, that's if you're stepping in and trying to go toe to toe with her. If you somehow cough up a ball short, you're adding a little bit of time in the loft and the flight of your ball, she moves up to take said ball, either step up, out of the air, or can even volley with the best of them. She will now take a full second and some change. And before long, you, the opponent, simply run out of time. hardcore taking away time, and arena's one of the best at it.

Clay Court, okay? Now we need to take away court. We have to go, and you mentioned earlier, I thought it was a visual for those of us that have played, those of us who may not understand as well. If you divide the court up into thirds, right? The singles court's 27 feet wide. You got three nine feet thirds in that court, right? In that sense of things. So you've got your middle third, you got your two outer thirds as you,

spoke to, sometimes if that ball's just on the inside of what we're going to call middle cross and you've recovered a little bit back toward the center and I'm able to get that ball back to the outer third, well now I've got a decision to make because I'm me the person receiving this outer third ball. I can go open stance, but I can tag it, but I got to be able to handle the court that I just opened up to my right side. I can shape it, but I risk it. I may give you a step up and again depending on who I'm playing,

And of course who I am, have this ball or not, I have to now make a risk or play a very, very routine ball that I don't think you can hurt me back with. And then we'll do it again. Let's say I roll the ball. Okay. I roll the ball line. I can get away with that on clay because I have more time to do so. The ball's going to not only bounce higher on the clay, it's going to bet. It's going to take longer to get there. And when you get there, you're not going to have sure footing. So you won't

Torrey Hawkins (23:38.909)
hurt me as often as you would have had it been hardcore. We have very sure footing. You can take the game with a cut the ball off. If I go back hard cross, I get redirected and now I have to run my very same ball that got redirected. I got him run it down from my far left ad side to a running down on the deuce and do some hard to win effort to get on the run and the clay court player knows, okay, step one, get player on run.

Alvin Owusu (23:57.01)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (24:06.137)
As that person's on the run, can opener slice, buggy whip forehand, doesn't matter. I'm hustling back to get back. Step two, go behind player. And now they've got you in the clay court matrix right now. You have no idea what you're doing. You don't run it down, they go open court. You head open court, they go behind you. You back up to buy time, they drop shot. And before you know it, the space becomes such a major piece.

Alvin Owusu (24:17.343)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (24:35.431)
that you have to constantly protect turf. And the player that likes to take away time finds themselves backing up more, running more almost from the front back. And the player that started a little further back with good shape can eventually start doing space invaders and kind of coming forward. So that's the biggest difference to me. And the tactics are completely flipped on their head because what will be a good tactic taking the ball early, it doesn't always end up being the best tactic, especially if you don't have the goods.

because you're actually taking away time, but you should be taking away court. And that's a segue that makes, to me, that makes Ego Sviatnik such a phenomenal player on clay because she can take away your court and take away your time, which is why she's had such good, which is why she has such a good clay court record, right? And that has so many grand slams at the French. So that's what's so amazing about her. And I think that when we ever, when we always talk about this, we got to understand that the top of the game

Alvin Owusu (25:18.815)
hits it big enough, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (25:33.297)
they combine two or three or more things that most players only do well with one, they do well with two or three. So when you talk about them, have to just understand they are by definition exceptions because they have several, they don't have just one and that's why they are who they are.

Alvin Owusu (25:52.94)
Yeah, no, that's very well put. I appreciate you walking us through that one. It's the same game, but it's a whole different ball game. I'm gonna kind of take that a little bit and transition into some of the things that I saw in Charleston while I was there. You have to take it with a grain of salt because these women are just getting their feet literally on the dirt. Some of them coming maybe a week prior have been in their training since they've been out of Miami, maybe.

Torrey Hawkins (26:02.365)
Is it not?

Alvin Owusu (26:20.937)
You lose week one, think Jessica lost in the, probably like the quarters or something like that to Rebecca, so that means she was, she maybe had a week on the clay. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (26:30.213)
I had another few nights, I had three four more days. If I can add one more thing before you go forward. There is a difference, going back on that previous thought about the movers. There is a difference with players that have history on clay, that are finding their feel and groove on the clay. And players that have yet to find say and groove on the clay, that are trying to get better on the clay.

Alvin Owusu (26:35.179)
Please do.

Torrey Hawkins (26:58.833)
and they're just trying to put in time to pay it forward. If I grew up on clay, I can probably find my field on the clay coming from hard court in about 15 to 20 minutes. It's not very difficult for me. I grew up on it. I know it. My day to day tennis can vary a little bit as it were with any player, but I'm pretty comfortable on the clay. won't take me, I don't have to rejuice myself to the clay. I have a little spoonful of clay with my coffee every day. I know how to. my God.

Alvin Owusu (27:25.704)
It's almost fun. It's almost fun coming back like, slide around a little bit.

Torrey Hawkins (27:28.541)
can't feel so happy back on the clay. You might even run to the baseline, off of style and do a six foot slide, shh, the clay, you know what I mean? You look forward to your socks getting red and your shoes getting messed up. And if you're that person who's on a hardcore player revisiting the clay, you're having to have the coach feed you a few extra on the runs, run down a few drop shots. You're trying just to get acme to get, just to get comfortable.

Alvin Owusu (27:32.363)
You

Torrey Hawkins (27:57.457)
Maybe even dig out a pair of, you know, used shoes to get a little bit of sliding down. You gotta kinda do some things to kinda help yourself get back acclimated and then you're better on it because I feel like, and I just wanted to point that out because I think that's a big thing to understand, some players are playing this kind of an event just to get back comfortable and to kinda get ready for the clay court season. Others are like, I play on clay all the time. There's not much ramp up for me. I'm a clay court player, really.

Alvin Owusu (28:02.472)
Ryu's shoes, yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (28:26.447)
I just adapt to hard court and the adjustment you're now making on the clay, I had to make for the hard court season. I'm coming back to my surface and that includes your clay court aficionados like Caspar Roode who grew up in, obviously in Europe and obviously EGA and as well as some of your South American types that are always pretty good at it. And I think that's the thing that a lot of the American players, a lot of the Canadian players I'm sure, and I gotta think the English players.

all may struggle with because of not having access to clay year round or having certainly not grown up on it.

Alvin Owusu (29:00.452)
Casper would be in Norwegian obviously but grew up training at the Nadel Academy which is a plethora of Clay Court surfaces to work with there a plethora of Clay Court courts to work with there. A little bit about Eva Jovic who I got to spend a decent amount of time watching her practice and this is again I'll beat this I'll beat this drama as long as I need to. you it's it one is it's extremely valuable to go to tournaments just to see these players in person.

I think we all come away with a greater appreciation for truly how good and how skilled these players are when we're not looking at them from the TV angle elevated behind the baseline and you actually get down to court level, down to their level and you see not only the efficiency and intentionality behind their footwork, but the way that they carry themselves in their practice, the way they put their practices together. You even get a feel for the personality, way they interact with their coaches and their camps and the other players. I think it's...

It is one of the things that in our sport, we are blessed with the ability to watch the best players in the world practice their craft. Like, I don't know about you, but I'm not gonna watch LeBron James practice anytime soon. They won't let me in the building. They won't let me in the building. Not that early. Right, so, but at a tennis tournament, you can camp out at the practice course all day long and watch 40 players practice. High five them.

Torrey Hawkins (30:13.521)
Right, not that early. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (30:25.866)
Some of them like to talk back to the crowd. a really, it is a we are all together as not that some of us are all tennis players with them, but we're all in this of the same reason we all appreciate tennis. Eva Jovich. Oh yeah. You're right there. You literally walk right up next to the court. You can put your elbows on the side fence and just watch them practice, watch them work. Eva.

Torrey Hawkins (30:39.143)
especially at a venue like Charleston where it's very, you're right there. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (30:52.616)
went through a lot of, was going through a lot of footwork specific drills for maybe a good chunk of 20 minutes at one point in time where was like shadow swing first serve, prepping to get off, land on the front foot, back up to get back to a neutral stance. And really that is a different transition on hard court than it is on clay court. And then that ball, that kind of first two ball structure looks a little bit different there as well. So it was a lot of shadow coach.

then coach feeds, she goes back, roll, come back across, slide, hit cross, so really almost like defending second serves. Very intentional, moves quite well. One big takeaway that I was, I've always been high on her. I tempered my expectations a little bit after watching her play. And then almost brought them back up again. She.

The one thing that is very clear on the women's tour right now is there are delineations between levels. We have our Amazonians, six foot, big hitters, move well, that ball is a different kind of ball, that's a different kind of problem. Our super heavyweights, if you will. Our heavyweights are a little bit different. And then you've got your, was it Walter weight below that? Something like that, but really like it.

Torrey Hawkins (32:05.821)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (32:11.948)
Yeah. Well, I think well,

Alvin Owusu (32:15.794)
If you're gonna get to the top of the women's game, there is a requisite of pace that is involved. You need to be able to bring something. Gone are the days where you can hack your way into this. think Coco is the exception to this rule here, where she doesn't hit the naturally biggest ball on both wings, on the forehand side specifically, but her athleticism and competitiveness is...

through the charts, which then makes up for that deficiency, but she also ain't 5'5". Like she's also 5'10". Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so she...

Torrey Hawkins (32:46.343)
Yeah. Yeah.

Huh, so she's about 5'9". Yeah, 5'9". And her ball's bigger than you think, I would add to that. And you're comparing her to the top four five, if I'm not mistaken. That's my point. Compared to 20 and out, Coco's ball's big, you know what I mean? And her backhand will go through you. Her forehand, if she has time, will go through you if you're 10 and out. So I think it's important to make sure the delineation you speak to is so accurate. I wanna just...

Alvin Owusu (33:00.085)
One or two, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (33:19.105)
hammer one thing home and we then have to put that in context with who they're playing against. So, Arena's ball is that much bigger for everyone else. Madison's ball is a tad bit bigger than Arena's and you gotta understand it's this is the best ball in the world. So, if you're talking and and that ball's a little bigger, you're like, wow, you don't understand that until you see it.

Alvin Owusu (33:20.756)
Please do.

Alvin Owusu (33:40.542)
In the world. In the world.

Torrey Hawkins (33:49.071)
And now top 20 is phenomenal. So when you see top 20 get ran, like it's no big deal. You're like, well, you have to take a second. Okay, okay. Hang on. Let me put in context that player's last round. My mental Rolodex of what that player has done that I know that player's done. I've seen him, watched him, been there, got him. And they just got routine.

how big is that other player's ball? And that's the delineation I think you're speaking to. That's what you have to put into the hierarchy of what you're watching because sometimes we don't always appreciate how strong of a feat it is for that top player to defend and to play them with their given sets of skills and their multiple ways of beating you and they don't have many weaknesses, if any at all. And so that's part of the thing that I wanna just add to that because

I think that's the part that people miss when they watch. We grow into a match album. Like by about the fourth or fifth game, certainly by the first set, we kind of, we kind of understand the players themselves, but that's because they're so good at drawing us into the tennis they're playing. We forget that it's a hundred mile an hour forehand on one side, 130 mile an hour serve on one side. They just happen to be getting back, no problem. If we were courtside,

Alvin Owusu (35:01.182)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (35:16.199)
we would be like, whoa, you see that ball? That's a second serve. And we would be amazed at routine shots that they handle routinely. I just wanted to add that in there, because that gets lost, I think, if you don't see enough tournament play in person and you let the TV kind of dial it down a little bit, you kind of start thinking that it's normal or it's average.

Alvin Owusu (35:38.154)
That's true, the TV doesn't kind of normalize things. Let me put some respect on Coco's forehand because under not the most stressful of scenarios, she can hit it as big as the rest of it, not damn near close. My old office used to be across from Georgia Tech and I remember during the men's event a couple summers ago, they used Georgia Tech's outdoor courts as warmup facility.

Torrey Hawkins (35:55.997)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (36:02.711)
She did excellent one year before that.

Alvin Owusu (36:07.869)
The match courts are on the other side of my office, so like a block away from Georgia Tech. And I'm looking out the window one day and I'm like, yeah, there's just guys over there. And I see this black girl down there. And I'm like, who the hell, that girl looks pretty good. I mean, I'm on the seventh floor, I'm across the street, look down. I'm like, she's got braids. It's like, could be Asian Muhammad for all I know. Maybe, maybe not. So I'm like, I got some time. I'm on my lunch break, I'm gonna walk downstairs, walk across the street, sit down as one would.

that's Cocoa Golf. She's just working out, right? She's working on this. This is year she won the US Open. So she was about to go on that DC, Toronto, Cincinnati run. But I'm watching her and I'm like, one, she's so tall, like she's so physically imposing. And that forehand that people like us, we talk about under duress when she's practicing, that thing is a howitzer, right? She can tag it.

Torrey Hawkins (36:47.931)
Right, run.

Alvin Owusu (37:06.567)
She can tag it. Similar story, relatively similar time. I was at the US Open during qualifying once and I'm watching Irina Sabalenka out there hitting and not just the ball she was hitting, just her footwork. Her footwork is impeccable, impeccable footwork. And that's how you get in position to hit a ball, like give yourself space to hit a ball that big. So again, my point is when we start talking about delineations of levels, right,

Torrey Hawkins (37:21.213)
Very good footwork. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (37:35.218)
there is a certain weight of ball that you are going to need to be able to produce to play at the highest level of the game. And if you can kind of like, if you can't naturally hit that ball, your timing needs to be fantastic so you can take it off the rise and use some of that pace. I sat through a couple of matches on center court that day I was there. Paolo Bedoso played against Kayla Day. I don't know if you know who Kayla Day is, lefty from California. And I'm sitting with my buddy Matt and I'm like,

Yeah, that over time, over the course of this match, Badosa's ball that's just gonna be too much for Kayla. can't, it could be enough for this to be a four and four kind of victory, but eventually there's going to be enough edge. And there came some points where just like Kayla was rolling and Paula showed like straight up former number two in the world, pop. You let me get my feet set, I'm gonna make you look bad. And you start to see these like, you

another one was Katie Volunetz. Katie Volunetz played against Dina Schneider. there, know, Katie got up 4-1, I think early, 100 % first serves made, none of them cracked 90 miles an hour.

Torrey Hawkins (38:34.365)
Yes.

Alvin Owusu (38:46.565)
I digress, but by the time Dina got herself situated, one way traffic, because after a while, like ball weight, ball weight, ball weight, over and over, heavy jabs, heavy jabs, heavy jabs. Eventually you get tired and you can't keep up. But there was...

Torrey Hawkins (38:49.906)
How about?

Torrey Hawkins (39:04.349)
And put some perspective on that Alvin. When I was the tournament director for the girls 12 nationals, Katie Volonetz won my tournament one year. had several of the girls that age, know, Coco had won the clay courts one year, either that same year or year before that it's around the same era when Volonetz I may be off by a year or so. But just to help everybody understand, these are top juniors in the country. Some went on to college and became instantly champs or went really far. Some skipped and straight went straight pro. But they people have to understand

These are some of the best in the country that have now matriculated to the Pro Tour. So just to help everyone understand, again, we're talking about, didn't break 90, had 100%. These are darn good players and they've been good for the last 10 years. This is not chicken feed, this isn't the same shop liver. is phenomenal tennis players continuing to get their craft better. And to your point, and now we have delineations even amongst that.

Alvin Owusu (40:00.338)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (40:02.023)
We're not talking about the best person you've seen at your club unless you happen to be in a club that has some top 100 players that play out of it routinely. And I just think that again, you gotta keep, come back to the context so that you can understand the profoundness of what you're saying because you're right. There is a different level, but you gotta appreciate, you were talking about the level on top of an already very, very high level to begin with. And I just wanted to keep.

Alvin Owusu (40:27.529)
And I casually mentioned Kayla Day, she's a friend of ours. She was the best female player in the United States of America 2017, 2018. She's also no joke. Yeah, she's also no joke. So I say that to say, you gain an appreciation for what it takes not only just to get there, but then when you start separating 60 to 80 in the world from 50 to 30, and then 30 to getting inside the top 10.

Torrey Hawkins (40:34.053)
Right. Like two, three years ago. Right.

Alvin Owusu (40:57.341)
And then even within the top 10, you start looking at those women and you can even physically see it. You can physically see it and this one looks like an athletic specimen who can produce ball weight and not sacrifice court coverage to do it. That's really what we're looking at, right? That's what that comes down to. But one person that I did get a chance to watch up close and personal, I watched her hit for an hour.

and then she went and played and I watched the entirety of her match was Belinda Bincic. Okay. I'm gonna go ahead, I'm gonna, this is for you, this is for you Belinda. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was not aware of your, of the level of, I'm not just gonna say awesomeness, but I learned so much about Belinda Bincic watching her practice and then watching her take it onto the match court.

One thing that I noticed, and then we'll kind of get into the more technical thing, technical thing that I noticed. Belinda was hitting with one of the hired hitters, one of the guys that was, there's a club that provided a bunch of really good men's players and they were warming up the players of the tournament. She got to a point where she was working, working, working, got a little frustrated at one point, one small racket toss. And I'm like, Belinda's gotta play a match in about 90 minutes here.

Torrey Hawkins (42:24.881)
Ha ha ha.

Alvin Owusu (42:25.99)
What did Belinda do from there? I did not see another peep out of Belinda the rest of that practice. She locked in. Yep, she locked in. She did not let a bad minutes or a bad moment turn into a bad practice session, which turns into a bad match. Now it's a bad day and I'm going home, right? She put it in a box. She said, okay, I'm gonna work through this. We're gonna keep hitting. And then after about 40 minutes, that gentleman left.

Torrey Hawkins (42:28.881)
Locked in. Right.

You

Alvin Owusu (42:54.236)
her coach comes out, feeds her some balls, they're working on the things she had an issue with, and she just went to work, went to work, went to work, went to work, felt good, got off tennis court, came back on to play her match, got the job done in three sets. Similar thing, won the first set, had a little blip in the second set, came back out in the third set, and took care of business like six-two, something like that. So this is the level of professionalism. Like she's 29 years old, like she's not going to let these issues bleed.

and take control of the situation. She has a job to do. And that is part of being a professional tennis player is understanding you have a job to do. And I was so impressed by her, that particular, way she handled that, what would end up being like 20 minute kind of window and keeping it in that window and then walking off the court going, okay, now I'm ready to play. That's not gonna bother me.

Torrey Hawkins (43:44.029)
So, I'll look out. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (43:52.657)
A detour like that, Alvin, if you're not made of a certain metal, that could completely derail your day. That same issue's been off and on recurring for a few weeks to months for a while. That could be gnawing at you in the back of your head. You know what I mean? And more to your point of being professional, she has worked through it.

the previous hundred times that it has happened, whatever that issue has been. But it's a mindset at that point. I remember watching her, obviously for years, but I go back to the match she beat. think she beat, pretty sure she beat my girl Anis Mova in whatever the last week, had to have been, was it Miami or any one? Miami. And just took a tour. mean.

Alvin Owusu (44:18.375)
right.

Alvin Owusu (44:39.334)
Maybe, probably maybe.

Torrey Hawkins (44:43.719)
But she took Amanda's pace, no problem. She's not hitting as big as Amanda, you wouldn't know it watching the match. And she actually got Amanda jammed on her ball and then ran her. She had the perfect tactic. She has great hands and moves very well, by the way. And I feel like when you start getting these players, you're talking about the delineations and levels. She's not as young as she was, and she's a mom now. You have to appreciate the former gold medalist is now

Helping you understand this is how good I used to be and I'm not too far off my top right now. I'm actually smarter now. She might be saying I'm actually a little better of a player now even though I'm not as, I may be a half a step slower than I was at say 25 or 23. But make no mistake, I'm more locked in now and I'm tactically more accurate. I think that's the part where she's at. I know you use your formula two, three years after peak, blah, blah.

Alvin Owusu (45:19.624)
She might be better. She might be overall as a tennis player better.

Torrey Hawkins (45:43.417)
She might still be in her second peak, if you will. That's kind of where that is. And the only handful of women can say that. She's certainly one of them. There's a handful of moms out there from Naomi to Vika Zorinka to several that have shown they could win at the highest level and beat the players in the top five post child. And this is a great example. Going through her peak right now, she might be in, right?

Alvin Owusu (45:46.941)
Right, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (46:06.632)
Svetlana is another great example.

she is better. She is better now.

Torrey Hawkins (46:13.982)
She might be better now, right? So to my point, and that is also otherworldly, you know, when you really stop and think about it.

Alvin Owusu (46:22.216)
Okay, so there was a funny thing that happened on the practice court as well. Do wanna hear the funny thing first? Do you wanna go through the Belinda? Okay, the funny thing. Okay, this is really funny to me. So, Belinda is hitting on the court next to me. Next to her is Jastrzynska, her opponent, right? So, but completely normal. They're hitting at the same time because they're playing each other in an hour. So, this is normal, right? So they're hitting, they're hitting, they're hitting. The person coming on after Jastrzynska happens to be

Torrey Hawkins (46:27.995)
Yeah, I want to hear the final thing.

Torrey Hawkins (46:41.745)
Big talk.

Alvin Owusu (46:54.076)
won the lefty, Schneider, because Yashremska and Binchic are playing the first night match. Schneider is playing against the Volinets in the second night match. So that's how the practice schedule lined up. So Schneider is coming on the court, right? And Yashremska is finishing up, going to the sideline. Who was, well one, do you know who's coaching Yashremska right now?

Torrey Hawkins (46:57.021)
That's not a threat.

Alvin Owusu (47:21.254)
I'm looking at this woman, I was like, is that Alexander Stevenson?

Torrey Hawkins (47:24.921)
Alex Stevenson, I did see that in the news somewhere.

Alvin Owusu (47:27.272)
What, I'm like, I don't understand how that, how did that happen? had, Alexiina Sheebsen, former top junior tennis player, made it to the Pro Tours, daughter of Julia Serving, like she did some things at Wimbledon some 20 years ago, Accomplished player, I'm not trying to minimize her accomplishments as a tennis player, I'm just saying she is very American, very American. And Yershchemskaya is very Ukrainian, she is Ukrainian I believe.

Torrey Hawkins (47:44.509)
Yeah, sure. Very clear. Yeah, bye.

Alvin Owusu (47:57.309)
Double check on that one. I just want to know how they got together Like maybe they have the same agent. I just it's just very is a very odd pairing to me at first at first glance Okay, that is I mean the most interesting thing that happened in the next few minutes as there as Schneider and her coach are coming on a court Schneider is being coached by Sasha Bayan, right and they've been together for about a year now I think is maybe last summer on That's awesome

That's awesome, they're coming to the bench, your scrimp's shit, and is coming to meet Alex by the bench, yada, yada, yada. Notice a little bit of awkwardness between Byen and Jastrzymska, and that's because he used to coach her, and she fired him for some, like, you know, because coaches get fired, that happens. But it's like, yeah, it happens all the time. Every coach that you see with a player right now is going to get fired at some point, like just, that's gonna happen. But.

Torrey Hawkins (48:40.925)
Let me go.

women's floor all the time.

Alvin Owusu (48:55.24)
It's so weird. was like, it's waiting to my buddy, Matt. I'm like, yeah, this is the this is the pro tour. It's like it's like breaking up with a with a boyfriend or girlfriend. And then you see him in class the next next like next period. Like you're going to see him around. And sometimes you're going to be on the same court together. Like it's they're just they're just on tour. And I was chuckling and I was explaining it to Matt. And he started laughing and was like, you would only laugh at this if you if you knew like if you knew if you don't know, it's nothing. If you know you chuckle. And it's funny if you know it.

Torrey Hawkins (49:03.997)
It's the best one.

Torrey Hawkins (49:10.276)
Exactly.

Torrey Hawkins (49:21.879)
But if you know, know.

Alvin Owusu (49:24.584)
A classic, if you know, know, this is funny. But, Belinda Benchers, so I'm watching her hit, from a tactical standpoint, was watching her hit backhand, and something was very, something caught my eye, right? And I took a video, and I sent it to you, and this was on like Tuesday of last week, and I'm still as fired up about it, Tuesday of this week, and I'm still as fired up on Friday night as I was on Tuesday about how this happened. So, I think for the first time in best of three history, I'm gonna try to actually

Torrey Hawkins (49:26.877)
that.

Torrey Hawkins (49:42.877)
Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (49:54.53)
show you this, show you this video. Okay, so what we've got here is Miss Belinda Binchich, but she's gonna be hitting backhands. And I want to take note of this backhand footwork. As we go through that beginning of that clip, Tori, how would you explain what I'm seeing right about here? So backhand comes.

Torrey Hawkins (50:23.047)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (50:23.474)
She starts to prep. Typically you'd see someone step on the left leg, step in on the right leg, close the stance off, smack this ball. What is Miss Binchich doing here that is breaking my brain?

Torrey Hawkins (50:27.931)
Yup. Yup.

Torrey Hawkins (50:36.847)
I've been looking at it and I've looked at this clip numerous times since you shared it with me. There are several things that come right to me, but the first thing that comes to me besides having a phenomenal, phenomenal timing and open stance backhand is you see even right there how she just kind of sets the racket. I would be willing to bet you a C note that she is as amby or closet lefty.

as they come because she's setting that racket like it's a left-handed forehand and then she goes you notice right here she's already setting the racket notice her left foot hasn't moved yet she's moving her technically her inside foot right it's gonna go forward here just go you can go and roll the clip then she steps out left she's got the steps completely flipped but

That backhand, as you would say, is clean as Christmas. That thing comes through all day long, all day strong. Now, you watch the next ball. She actually does something similar on this side, but she hits a more classic. Outside foot moves, good shoulder rotation, but it hits still pretty clean on both sides of open stance. The next backhand, I think the backhand's coming up next. There's another one. And she actually loads and powers through this thing. It's as if it's a lefty forehand.

with a little bit of help of the right hand. That's what I see. I just see, I don't see the classic front shoulder lean, right knee forward bend and.

Alvin quite frankly she might get more pop and more depth off at open stance and certainly gets more length off of it and has and is easier to recover off of it because of not having her the the step in right foot and the left foot swivel so in some ways it's actually more efficient and if you're countering a lot off that ball that's actually smarter to do because if you don't hit it 100 miles an hour or 90 plus

Torrey Hawkins (52:41.989)
you're probably better off going open stance to counter if you're not. And I say that to say that's where your delineations come in. Maybe I'm so good at defending the big backhands because I don't have one, but I'm better with my footwork so when I can use your pace and guess what? My footwork's better than yours. So when you hit 90 miles an hour to me plus on a ground stroke, I can redirect you better. That clip explains how she was so effective against a knee-some-over.

Alvin Owusu (53:10.779)
Yep, taking pace. Right, and she has no, there's no leakage on that backhand side. Like it is extremely efficient and.

Torrey Hawkins (53:11.613)
who hits 90 million on our grounds for something like that.

Torrey Hawkins (53:17.341)
Zero power loss, zero energy dissipation. literally, loaded left foot forward and hit a backhand.

Alvin Owusu (53:29.575)
My brain's still broken, Tori, it's still broken. I've watched that clip probably 50 times and I still don't understand what I'm looking at.

Torrey Hawkins (53:32.786)
going.

Torrey Hawkins (53:38.653)
It's phenomenal. And when you see people do things like that, that are a little bit like, wow, like that's, and we say not normal, right? There was a guy years ago when I was on the tour with some players and his name was Ilya Bazulyakhin. Ilya had a one-handed backhand and a two-handed forehand.

And when you saw this guy's two handed forehand, it was an absolute blitzkrieg. I mean the ball, you wondered how a person had a ball that big with two hands. And then you saw him with a one handed, you're like, really?

one-hander but I gotta see this one-hander after seeing that two-handed backhand the one-hander was was better than Dimitrov's I mean it was just I may be giving a little extra but my point is that clean off the return that clean Ailey was I don't know if he was he's not either Serbian or Croatian I can't remember but he was just so pure off the one-hander and again

The guy's hovering between 150 and 75 in the world. Of course it's clean. mean, you wouldn't have a hand in backhand if it was trash. So I say it to say, when you saw it, you're like, but every time you watched him, you wanted to just see what he would do.

Alvin Owusu (54:37.135)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (54:49.213)
He had it. It was good as you thought it was, maybe better. And at that point, you just had to accept it. And the fact that our brains couldn't get our head around it, I mean, is beside the point. The fact is they can do it. And it just shows you how when people hit a tennis ball that clean and effortless, it's something to behold. I mean, it's a marvel of timing.

Alvin Owusu (55:11.781)
It's only effortless, it only looks effortless because they spent so much time putting so much effort into hitting it that well. So Belinda Bincic from Alvin at BESSA 3 directly to you. I am now aware, I am here with you. Let's roll, I'm on your side. Before we get out of here, we got some news, I think it was yesterday or today, about the EGA Swiatek.

Torrey Hawkins (55:27.79)
on.

Alvin Owusu (55:41.959)
coaching situation, I think this note came to no one's surprise. Francisco Royig is gonna be her coach, formerly a part of the Roth and Nadal camp for the whole run from Uncle Tony to Moya, he was there for all of it. She's trading out of Nadal Academy, I guess for the duration of the clay court season, that's where she'll be home basing, working with him. A video came out.

today with the two of them along with Rafa on court working with Iga. So this is like fantasy tennis come true, right? Iga finally is under the tutelage of her idol, yada, yada, yada. It's fantastic. But I wanna talk about like some of the, maybe compare and contrast like why this might work better for a better partnership from a Roy Igg standpoint because he was.

most recently working with Emma Rana Cano and they butted heads over let's say game style differences. He wanted her to add more shape and spend her game. She wants to be effectively a man of Anna Samova and try to go through people. They didn't see eye to eye so they were no longer with each other. Now Roy Yig has a student who is open to the Spanish ways of tennis.

Torrey Hawkins (56:43.313)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (57:05.88)
obviously idolized Rafa coming up and now they're all together. What might this look like from a coaching and EGA perspective? What kind of changes do you see forthcoming here?

Torrey Hawkins (57:20.345)
Number one, I don't know if it's been four or five. I think it's been five. She's won five French Open. So we're not talking about, I think four. Four in French, a U.S. and a Wimbledon now, right? So six total, seven, six total. Six total. Four to my point. Minimum four, potentially more, I think a lot. On clay is my point.

Alvin Owusu (57:28.678)
I think it's four, I think four French is one US, one, in one button, yeah. I think it's six total.

Yep, a lot.

Torrey Hawkins (57:43.035)
So number one, she's very good on clay and has already proven very mastered on the surface. Number two, Roy is phenomenal coach. We can only see good things coming here, right? She's at a point where she's, you know.

Sunset her current coach for whatever reasons and and moving forward and needs that new Perspective and you couldn't find a better perspective. I'll be honest I think it should last past the clay court season just to get the rest of the of the sauce You know, you can't you can't get a good sauce, you know If you if you just heat heat and serve you got to let that marinate for a little while Let that let that flavor little spices really get in there all the way so you can really get the full flavor

Alvin Owusu (58:18.374)
Mmm.

Torrey Hawkins (58:23.991)
I feel like that's what needs to happen. But I feel like you've got a lot right going already. You simply need to add a little bit of a nuance and maybe just a fresh perspective on when to use the spin. I am particularly impressed with not only her seeking out this type of help at this time, great timing, I'm also liking Roy as the coach. He's got a little something to prove, maybe a little chip on the shoulder from the Murata kind of situation. Let's face it, coaches get very personal with this kind of thing.

and a player who's looking to make some changes who's obviously of, of, um, Svantec's caliber.

is very, is a very solid piece of to work with who's already, again, mastered, knows what she's doing. So it can be positioning nuances. It could be when to go for certain things. Ega's not one to throw in a lot of change-ups and she tends to hit one speed, one weight. And I don't think she's as good as she is. She's not as phenomenal on the run, which to me tells me that he's going to do a lot more to keep her in that.

very good space where she's effective and not hit herself out of the coverage area or get herself court wise out of her coverage area which she can do if she starts being overly aggressive and I think that's a big thing for her. think changing up her return stances is a big thing. I think her adding in the occasional drop shot and the occasional slice is good for her. Otherwise players get very immune to her mini daggers over time because they of course have seen it and they've only seen that for a long time. So I like all of it Alvin. I really do.

I'm worried for the other top four, or the rest of the top four because, for sure, because she's that good on clay. And she's better than they are on clay anyway most days of the week. And she's got a little bit of a chip on her shoulder and they, in my opinion, I still say that match that Arena beat her last year in the semis was one of the best.

Alvin Owusu (59:59.76)
you're that bullish on it, huh? Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:23.355)
clay court matches for the women I've seen a long time. And that was, I it was absolute knockdown drag out tennis. And I really feel like that was something that.

save for her playing arena she could have very well had played Cocoa and given and maybe who knows what would have happened if Cocoa had played Eagle very well herself. But my point is save for arena that day she would have been in that final one more time and I think that's very safe to say. So I'm just trying to help people understand she wasn't that far off from before. So a little nuance, a little better, a little more serve and

and just some understanding of a few things with a fresh perspective. If her bad French is a semi and her top is four slams, I like her chances, Allen. With a fresh perspective, with Rafa's coach, I like her chances, Allen. Just saying.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:14.17)
Right. That's good. That's good point. That's good point. That's good point. At worst.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:22.542)
Okay, so you weren't so high on Eega, you're not currently high on Eega in general. You're saying specifically this particular pairing going into the clay court season, yes, yes. If done right, it helps her going forward.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:26.001)
No. Correct.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:31.441)
this swing, this pairing, this tournament. But if done right.

it helps her going forward on the hard court because people forget it took Rafa seven, eight years to get to the second week of the US Open.

When he did, I think he won the thing eight, nine years later, but he was, and at that point he added several US Opens to his credit. But I say that to say, there was a while, at least five years, I know, where he wasn't making it past the second week in the US Open after having won the French four or five times. So again, you let him get comfortable on that stuff, let him understand his patterns better, let him understand how point creation, point development on a play chord now transitions to the hard chord.

Rafa was darn unbeatable for, you know, for 6 % of 10 years on the hard court after he really got good at it. And that's with one Roger Federer and one Novak Djokovic still always contesting for first lands, not to mention the occasional, the occasional Varenka, Chilich, Murray of things. So I say that today. Who's that?

Alvin Owusu (01:02:38.662)
Delpo Delpo as well

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:41.689)
Not double, right? points. You got even the other slam winners were world class. So I like Francisco in this space. I just got to say this one thing for the Amarantikano fans out there. I really hope she gets the type of coach that she will allow.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:55.805)
boy.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:03.919)
to help her. feel like since her run at the Open five, six years ago now, seven years ago, I guess it was now, I feel like she's still chasing a vision of herself that isn't there. She's trying to play tennis that she thinks that the tennis, I think that that statement that she didn't understand Roy was saying tells me she doesn't understand herself, her skill set, and she's still chasing a vision of herself of that tournament back in the day.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:09.99)
2020.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:33.961)
The sun, the moon, the stars are just aligned for that tournament. And it hadn't happened since and may not happen again, but at least you can put yourself back in your best and give yourself your best chance to win. She's not going to grow six to eight inches. She's not going to get those kind of limbs and develop that kind of ball striking, but she does so many things well. Why would you not change it up? Why would you not add shape, add slice, take on the rise and use the bevy of your skills? Why would you just limit yourself

to being a go-through player when you're not a go-through player physique and ball speed. You just, you know, you can't do it.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:11.543)
It's, yeah. I sympathize with her a little bit. Like on tangential note, I would like to someday do a 30 for 30 style version on the what happened at the 2021 US Open. That was like, I've looked at that draw. The weird things that happened, the way it fell for a qualifier and an unproven

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:30.493)
The way it felt. Yeah.

Right. The main, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:39.711)
young lefty from Canada to also make the final in the same year.

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:42.673)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:45.981)
Right, on the other side of the draw. You're right. It's again, sun, moon and stars.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:50.704)
Maybe right before the US Open this year, we'll go down memory lane and actually, but the thing is, but to that point though, you have to be somewhat self-aware, but professional athletes, they don't make money off being self-aware. need to be, exactly, you kind of have to be. You kind of have to be, right? They always say defensive backs have a very, very short-term memory.

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:55.163)
I think that'd be good.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:08.369)
But then of course, not software.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:17.753)
You need to get on with it, you need to see the world in different way. Emma has the benefit of being able to remember the best version of herself. But also, she seems to be caught between, like she has a lack of game style clarity right now. There's what she wants to be, which is I won this Grand Slam and I want to play like the arena sabalinkas of the world. I want to play big, right? But she does not.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:34.624)
100%. Great work. Great talk.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:47.024)
possessed the tools or the size to do that. And now we are mixed in a bit of game soccer. She's still a very, very good tennis player. Like I would say on her best day, the ideal version of Emorata Kana was probably floating somewhere between 15 and 20 in the world, pushing like potentially pushing top 10, like maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. And that's a good job. That's a great job.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:56.573)
Great work.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:07.933)
Push it down,

Alvin Owusu (01:06:16.953)
but she sees her, but you gotta do that in your own way. You can't do that trying to be someone else.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:23.537)
Tell me something you're not. She needs to find Martina Hingis and show up at her doorstep with bags packed, bucket of balls, and a check in hand and say, please. Because that is the closest thing to Grand Slam Champ multiple times at that level, at that package, at that. And I think she needs Martina's vision.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:35.693)
Interesting.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:48.047)
or Melanie Mollet or whoever, she needs that level. Or maybe Hingis' mom. I sure hope she's still with us. But I say it to say somebody at that level. To see it, to help her understand where she needs to be, how to these things together.

Because if you're to take away time with that package and those limbs, you're not going to do it the conventional way. And I think what she's saying, me personally, she's seeing the top of the game do it. So therefore I need to do it. Not necessarily what I want to do, but this is I need to do to be that good. And you're having me roll balls. They're not rolling balls. And that's how I'm getting beat. And it's a very easy thing to understand. And perhaps.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:17.061)
or what I can do.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:25.935)
Roy and being his many years on the Spanish clay and much like our former head of player development, Jose Agueres, you're gonna be hard pressed to tell him that he's wrong. You're gonna be hard pressed to tell him, look, I just coached this way for 20 years. It got 22 slams. Maybe you know someone else that can teach 22 slams. And it's very hard to kind of get out of the dogmas that we understand that we know very well. Maybe Martina can help her to understand the spin,

Alvin Owusu (01:07:33.317)
I'm gonna go get some air.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:37.537)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:55.831)
drive, when to attack, when to you know old-school Muhammad Ali right float like a butterfly sting like a bee she's got to be able to move like that and be very very dangerous on the wings handle the middle of court well but not depend on pace absorb pace well there's just certain types of players that have done it very well to me you know find the player that last did it the best with that

kind of game and man, try to get them in your camp. But to me, it's a good move for O'Eague to be gone and quite frankly, great move for Iga. She understands spin, maybe. I could see us seeing a heavier spin. The one note that'll be a little different is the women take the ball on the rise very, very well. So the heavy ball won't be as big of a thing. they're gonna add some spin and some variety. It's gonna have to be very nuanced. It can't give the Amazonians

Alvin Owusu (01:08:32.325)
Hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:48.415)
more time, can't give them more height because all of them are six feet plus so they're gonna have, but.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:52.869)
It's gotta be deep. It's gotta be deep.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:53.917)
But I think Roy is going to understand when to do it, when to drive, when to go heavy and really kind of, and when to go behind people or what. think that's going to be one of his things is to understand how to really do a really good job of point construction. And in my opinion, Alvin, to be very honest with you, I think she struggles with points, with point construction. She attacks very well. She hits targets very well. She's very fast, but I don't think she's very, she's not, she's not a master at point construction.

pass ball three four five for ball one and two she puts you on your heels she calls up a short ball she zigzags you she puts you over the swing and volley if the points gonna if all points gonna be between ball one and ball four on her side Egan Svanteke is still your world number one because she will finish you in three or four shots but if not point construction you can weather the first three or hit a first serve or or defend slash not give her the step up ball in the return it's a very different story so to me this

is very needed part of her game, which is why she's always seemed so thin to me with those kind of players that can hit through her because she didn't get that many looks and can't attack them like she would somebody else.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:06.372)
Let me add on to that because you bring up a really good point about point construction and you you feel she's not, that's not her strong suit. I think it is a direct reflection of how little tennis she self-admittedly watches. She is not a, from that standpoint, Ega is a self-admitted not a student of the game. She says, I don't watch matches. I let my coaches handle that.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:22.525)
That's a great point.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:32.98)
and that puts her in the position of someone of a computer. Input, someone gives me the input, I give the output. Tell me what to do, I go do it. But as she said in her most recent press conference coming out of, I believe it was Miami, about being lost during matches, things going wrong, she doesn't know what to do, she's not very good at thinking for herself on the tennis court. I think.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:37.391)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:51.005)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:54.959)
And that problem solving is huge. It's a huge miss.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:58.092)
It's huge when plan A doesn't go well or plan B doesn't go well. You can't always, yes there's coaching allowed, but there's only so much time. You need to be able to put some of that stuff together on your own. Take the menu of options and realize, okay this is the one that I actually need to implement and I need to start by doing, this ball because three balls from now I want this ball. And that is as great of a tennis player as she is.

I'll be the first to raise my hand and say, if you are selling your ego, sweet, I'll take stock right now. Give it, give it to me. Give it to me. I got, I got plenty. I got plenty of coins back here. I'll take as much of it as I can get. Six time grand slam winner, 24 years old. I I'm not, I'm not, uh, I'm not done with her quite yet, but I think she would serve herself well. Her camp would be doing her a service, but getting that woman to watch more tennis and almost film room session style. Like let's watch it together. Let's.

Torrey Hawkins (01:11:41.298)
for sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:11:52.669)
Watch more, problem solve more.

get her to walk through the scenarios of what it is and maybe it's a superstition maybe she never had to and that's the other thing people don't understand. You get to a point, Alvin, you've been so good at a certain thing and it's working you kind of think those things you've done are just what you do, right? And again, it becomes part of your dogma, becomes part of your whole belief system. So at some point you got to understand that you need to change and add to that because at some point you can't keep doing that especially when it's proven that it isn't going to continue to work or be successful going forward.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:08.664)
Sure, sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:12:26.299)
So, again, great choice for her, great choice for Roy. I just feel like so much of it is just going to be a good fit there. And if I hear...

five words a day over the course of two weeks from Rafa, those are gonna be five nuggets of wisdom that I'm on clay. I'm probably going to remember those five words, I'm saying five words, those five sentences that will probably have a very profound effect on my tennis overall. You know what I mean? And I would say the same thing with, if I heard that from Novak, or if I heard that from Roger or somebody else, the way they can understand it so simply and yet understand, make the complex be so simple to understand. mean, I hear nuggets.

on Instagram hearing that from some of these players and I'm like, God, that's gold. I hope the person listening understands, know, I teach it every day, you know what I mean? And I've been teaching for 30 years and played a fair bit myself. To hear them put it that simply, they cut through all the fluff and just said, bam, here it is. And you're like, whoa. I mean, that's...

Alvin Owusu (01:13:11.64)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:26.82)
I saw a video of a short, not even a video, a short of Andy Murray giving three tips on the return to serve. And he was like, know, like obviously one was like nail the split step, two short take back. And the third one was the golden one is like, as you make contact through the shot, the level of your head does not move. Can't come up. Like after you split and you go, do not come up. You have to keep your head level through

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:37.883)
Right. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:47.856)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:56.069)
And it's like, yeah, that's a visual I can get down with. And it's so simple. It's so simple. And you start thinking about his return, it's like, yeah, just stay at one level. Stay at one level, down and through, baby. Down and through. Yeah, they're good. These guys are good. Well, TH, that was fun. We will come back. What do have in front of us here on the tour? We've got Stuttgart, I believe, is this coming week. If not, it's the week after. We definitely have Monte Carlo, our favorite.

Torrey Hawkins (01:14:07.141)
I agree with Tom.

Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (01:14:24.285)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:14:27.093)
Red clay, blue sea, it's Monte Carlo time baby. So we've got all the big bangers are in that one, save for Novak and think Taylor and Jack Draper. But we've got Senator Alcara's in that one. Arthur Fees, it's fun, we're right back at it again. So we can put a pin in it there. That's best three, I'm Alvin, that's Tory, we are out.

Torrey Hawkins (01:14:46.277)
So, yeah.