Ep. 07: Francis Tiafoe, Taylor Fritz, and Tommy Paul: Chasing the Top in American Tennis

Alvin Owusu (00:01.367)
What's up and welcome back to the best of three. I'm Alvin joined again once again, joined, joined once again. I think that's how they say it. joined again by Tori Hawkins. got people here with me. How you doing this? I'm this fine. Monday afternoon, my friend.

Torrey Hawkins (00:01.624)
Thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (00:10.319)
What up, what up?

Torrey Hawkins (00:17.87)
I am doing well. I am doing well. The sun's sneaking out, so it's no longer hot land at this time of the year, but it's definitely good to see the sun out, and especially this time of the year. Any sunshine is a bonus.

Alvin Owusu (00:32.983)
Yeah, we get some free cheat days here in December in Atlanta where we're still able to get out and coaches are still able to coach and players are still able get some practice time in. So it's one of those sneaky little benefits of stealing some nice weather here. Yeah, I was just kinda, we were talking about this before we hopped on, but I just got back from New Orleans.

Torrey Hawkins (00:36.481)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (00:49.865)
Hmm. Ain't that the truth?

Alvin Owusu (00:59.074)
A good buddy of mine, you know him as well, had a wedding this weekend. I remember it was nice walking around New Orleans. Weather was great. Get back to Atlanta yesterday. was colder. I was like, well, man, this is real winter. And then I wake up this morning and it's like, well, okay, we're gonna do 60s again. But yeah, yeah, good problems. Good problems to have.

Torrey Hawkins (01:12.855)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (01:16.929)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (01:21.993)
It seems like they want to remind us that the weather that we take for granted is something we should appreciate. So every once in a while, it'll do that to us. You know what I mean? So, well, I'm glad Jerome's a good brother. Even though he's an OU fan, I'm still, and I'm a KU fan, I'm still, and that says a lot. if we can be cool and he's from the other side of the border, buddy, that's a big...

Alvin Owusu (01:28.899)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (01:33.526)
Yeah, yeah, I

Torrey Hawkins (01:50.049)
you know, it's a big ask and hey, and he brings it in spades. I would, 100%, he'd be on my very, short list of boys that are boomer sooners.

Alvin Owusu (01:51.757)
That's the-

Alvin Owusu (02:01.293)
That's the border they don't talk about. They're always talking about the OU Texas border, but the OU Kansas border is pretty legit as well.

Torrey Hawkins (02:03.379)
Exactly. Yeah.

We go back, you got to keep in mind, I got a few years on you, but the basketball days, OU, and you heard it right here, I'm a big time KU fan, OU was a better basketball program in the 90s than KU, even though KU that was in a sense KU's heyday. You had Danny Manning, Zara, going to Paris and all those great years, but people forget Mookie Blaylock went to OU. People forget Stacey.

Alvin Owusu (02:28.57)
I was like Danny Manning coming out of Danny Manning going into Paul Pierce and.

Alvin Owusu (02:37.859)
okay.

Torrey Hawkins (02:38.741)
Daisy Kane went to OU. had, what's my main man, Wayman Tisdale went to OU. mean, you had some, they had some players, man, that were just, there was one year KU lost both times, and this is back when it still big eight, lost both times in conference to OU, home and away. We're on opposite sides of the bracket. It was OU's tournament to win. Somehow somebody be,

OU and KU on opposite sides of the final four. Somehow OU gets beat. KU wins the, wins the national championship. We would not have beat OU. You heard it right here. We would not have beat OU. I mean, they just, I can't remember. If memory serves, I want to say it was, it was probably 92, 93 in that range, but I'm going to go back and check it. But it was early nineties. It might've even been 90 or 91. I mean, it was early nineties, but make no mistake.

Alvin Owusu (03:19.78)
Was that the, which year was that?

Torrey Hawkins (03:37.199)
you had our number. They were a better team. It was they were just a good. They were just you always had a really good. This is and of course the football was good. You remember how good Florida was in the 2000s when they had the basketball and the football was good. you was that school back in the 90s. And this is before, you know, you just kind of obviously went down there and the wishbone is before obviously the college football series or system, whatever you want to call it now. It

Alvin Owusu (03:53.176)
Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (04:05.391)
OU was always top in the country, almost always. And they run rough shot over everybody in the big eight. Colorado had a couple of years there with Cordell Stewart and some other, you know, some other decent teams, but OU by and large was the absolute truth. So anyway, little known facts. Some don't know. Guess who would have went to OU who was from right down the street from Norman, Oklahoma. One Troy Aikman. Where did he want to go to school? OU. OU ran the wishbone.

Alvin Owusu (04:08.098)
Okay. Okay.

Alvin Owusu (04:14.757)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (04:35.834)
It's not gonna work out for Troy Aikman.

Torrey Hawkins (04:36.036)
he was never gonna throw the football. So Barry Switzer gets on the phone, gets on the phone, calls couple of his buddies and says, I've got a quarterback for you. The kids gonna be bad. I'm telling you now you're gonna thank me later. But we run the wishbone and I'm not gonna change my whole system for this one kid. But this kid's gonna be good, like not good, like real good. Like you'll see him on TV one day. Good. No one knew how good Troy Aitken was gonna be. He put in to get Troy

Alvin Owusu (04:40.26)
Very switzer, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (05:05.864)
tray transferred. I want to see what do you say lab I'm not mistaken but but when we are maybe it was maybe it was it was it one of those Cali schools I'm not mistaken. He went out there played obviously hiding trophy winner later and obviously the rest is history when they went to the Cowboys but he is from Oklahoma right down the street from Norman, Oklahoma. I mean he was going to be tried and true right there in you all want to grow up was supposed to be a boomer sooner. So

Alvin Owusu (05:25.846)
Interesting.

Torrey Hawkins (05:32.839)
Imagine what that would have done if they would have had a throwing quarterback. That would have been another three or four championships right there. In addition to what he already had. So it's kind of funny when you look back at it. And I hate giving OU credit for anything. But make no mistake. is so, Darrell, this is for you. You know what mean? Hats off to your brother. You know what mean? It's just saying, just saying the fact that I'm even going on about OU. need to have my pulse checked, but just saying. Don't think I don't.

Alvin Owusu (05:34.819)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (05:45.211)
Hahaha

Alvin Owusu (05:50.523)
It's a joint wedding gift from both of us.

Alvin Owusu (05:58.717)
That's all right, I'll get us off, I'll get us off OU. I'll get us off OU. We don't need to give Jerome too much airtime here. Yeah, but yeah, know, just kind of, you know, we're back here today talking to little tennis as we do this time of week. And we had a really good conversation. I guess this is probably a couple episodes back when we were reviewing the, you know, reviewing 2024, previewing 2025 on the men's side. And we touched on, you know, kind of the current.

Torrey Hawkins (06:01.623)
There you go.

Alvin Owusu (06:27.453)
the current standing of the American men within the kind of quote unquote upper echelons of tennis right now. And I believe that conversation left us with you and I feeling a little different about where our top, let's say five or six American men stand right now leaving 2024, coming into 2025. So I felt like it was a good idea for us to take some time and really kind of sift through that today.

Torrey Hawkins (06:53.336)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (06:54.077)
You know, and if we if we run out of time because you're tough sometimes we get going we get going and these things that these things get moving but let's Let's talk a little bit about that and I'll I'll I'll see the floor to you first. I feel like you have feelings

Torrey Hawkins (07:09.891)
have feelings. In order to be the man, you have to beat the man. This isn't always the case, but 95 % of the time. I know on the top of your list is Taylor fritz. And let me say this from an eye because one of my absolute and then we're going to open to an episode on this. One of my absolute pet peeves is how critical people tend to be commentators, especially about tennis. Each one of these players are phenomenally

better than anyone even knows. They are so good. If anything, I think the part of tennis that gets largely overlooked is how difficult the game is and how effortless the best can make it look. Let me say that with all that said, Chris Fowler is absolutely top on my list of one of the people that has helped kill tennis with his negativity. I absolutely don't like his condescension and other things. So let me say every comment I make has nothing but love for the players.

Alvin Owusu (07:52.186)
Yeah. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (08:09.538)
I'm speaking as a fan, as a coach, as a lifelong tennis player, and it is my want for them to get better, ascend to the top. And with that said, and I know a handful of them personally, love Francis. I mean, just a great kid, met him several years ago before he really had his big run. Madam Ecclipson designated.

for I know kind of a small story. We'll talk about that one later. His girlfriend at the time was going to Clemson and long story. We'll get that one later. So I'd say that's to say, know you banks know him since he was a little kid, gave him a few lessons back when he was younger. We, nothing but love for, as Chris would do, nothing but love for all these players. So let me say that first and foremost. Taylor Fritz, I think had an opportunity a few years ago at Wimbledon to knock out, albeit an injured Nadal, to knock out an injured Nadal.

Alvin Owusu (08:34.245)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (08:45.276)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (08:59.89)
Yeah, yeah, what was that?

Torrey Hawkins (09:00.566)
The Nadal one's very special one to me because that was when one of my players had a chance to knock out the depth on him was up some set points and whatnot match we want to talk about now. But I know he was vulnerable. He was from the taking that day. Taylor had him. Unfortunately, Taylor didn't close the deal. The doll ends up winning that match pulls out of the same against Keros we talked about this before.

I felt there was an opening for Taylor right then to break inside the top five legitimately not points in ranking up not guys falling out elbow his way into the top five saying I'm up in here and and and and had a chance at that point to play a legitimate I'm for real match with curious who I thought was having a resurgence. I know he's coming back again. I hear I hear all the rumors about him coming back great.

Alvin Owusu (09:36.443)
Okay, yeah, so that's 2022. Taylor also.

Torrey Hawkins (09:51.487)
But that match would have then set up a match with Novak. I felt like he stubbed his toe. Not to say he has no more chances, not to say that he can't, but going on a previous conversation about the can you do it within five, I feel like the window is more closing than it is opening for his championship level tennis. Can he do it? Of course. But like anything else at this stage, it just gets harder.

And there's just a few drops of blood in the water that he doesn't believe he can do it. With that said, I don't think Taylor fritz has a championship grants land mind you in his outlook this year. And unfortunately, within the past two years, you've got Yannick center and you've let, you know, Carlos ascend to the top bypass him to some degree. And I feel like, and I'll let you respond. I feel like that's where we sit.

Can he do it this year? No question. Does he have the game? No question. Will it be harder? No question. Your thoughts.

Alvin Owusu (10:55.773)
So yeah, so that's kind of, that's interesting, right? So in 2022, if I remember this correctly, yeah, lost that match to Nadal at Wimbledon, also beat Nadal at Indian Wells in the finals that year. So a few months prior to that, Nadal was hurt, had the injury coming into that thing, whatever. Taylor gets the win, wins a 1000. That was this kind of, I guess, coming out party, right? So the interesting thing I think, I have this personal theory of

Most players, you gotta take these big threes and Serena out of it, these cyborgs, right? Most players have a three year kind of peak, right? Where they ascend, they hit their peak, they drop off a little bit, and then that's kind of where they settle. Yeah, so Taylor's been a top 10 player for three years in row now, right? Kind of like nine, finished year like nine in 2022, and then 10, and then now he's like somewhere around four or five this year. Went from.

Torrey Hawkins (11:41.737)
where they settle.

Alvin Owusu (11:55.101)
quarterfinals of a slam to making, know, finals of the US Open this year, right? So you can kind of start to see what his, what I call bottom level looks like. His bottom, his baseline level is probably quarterfinals of a slam. He should be getting to the quarterfinals of a slam. You know, the right draw lets him get into the semis plus a really good performance and we're talking, you know, where he's playing in the last two days of a tournament.

Torrey Hawkins (12:01.065)
Eh?

Alvin Owusu (12:23.325)
That's kind of what I expect out of him now. But I also believe that, I agree with you in that 22 might have been his best chance. I'm not gonna say to win one because he has a horrible record against Novak. Like that's not a match he's gonna win. Not in that house. That's damn near Novak's house.

Torrey Hawkins (12:40.385)
It's a bad. Wemby of course is Novak's house, isn't Novak's house number one. Right. But the harsh reality of it is this is a tennis matchup now. Best return of all time against the guy with the big serve. He's seen better servers and dismantled them. And Taylor's got a big forehand, which unfortunately goes to the backhand. Novak's got one of those backhands. It's just...

Alvin Owusu (12:47.919)
Literally on one leg too. Like he can do it. He can do it.

Torrey Hawkins (13:07.453)
It's just Rock, Paper, Scissors and Novak's one. He's got purview in your brain of what you're do. You're putting out Rock, he's got paper. I mean, he's literally ahead of Taylor Unfortunate in that matchup. Could it happen? It's possible, but it ain't likely.

Alvin Owusu (13:15.847)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (13:24.381)
Right, and maybe this year or next year is probably Taylor's best chance as Novak is kind of like, he's about to hit his, he's hitting his twilight right now. But I think your rock, paper, scissors analogy is really poignant here because that's the same thing I feel about Taylor matching up with say Yannick Center. 2022 is a perfect example. I was in New York a couple days before the Open started during the qualifying rounds. Last day of qualifying, so that Friday.

And I'm walking around watching some players practice, right? One of the, if our listeners aren't aware, the Friday before the Open starts is quite possibly the best thing you can find in tennis. It's the best. I roll up there, 11 o'clock.

Torrey Hawkins (14:02.433)
is the best day of the US Open, 100%. 100%. Big timers start coming through. got the qualityers finishing up. You got everything. The old timers, the masters, guys walking around getting courts. It's just, it's tennis mecca. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (14:16.101)
It was great. It was great. I saw Philip Poussas walking around. I think he was on court with probably since the past at that point, you know, practicing. And then I walked back and I watched Nadal practice for an hour. I watched, I watched Carlos practice for an hour. And then I'm, you this is in Louis Armstrong. I'm right there. I'm five rows back. This is like, you can't, I can't afford that ticket, right? But I love to watch these guys work. But I mentioned that because I went out to the outside courts and Taylor was hitting with Yannick.

Torrey Hawkins (14:34.825)
right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (14:45.533)
Right? And Yannick hadn't, you know, hadn't, he hadn't become what he is now quite yet, but I'm watching them go and I'm like, man, these guys look a lot alike. They're doing a lot of the same things, but it looks like one doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, so that's 2022 August, 2022 right now you fast forward all the way to November of 20, 20, 24. And I'm watching the final of, of the year in championships, right? Center.

Torrey Hawkins (14:49.985)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (14:57.437)
One's got a backhand that just all day.

Alvin Owusu (15:15.151)
Fritz and they did a really good job of getting low on the baseline for the feed on that one. And I'm watching, it's like watching a game of pong. And it's just kind of inevitable one of these pong pieces just moves a little bit slower than the other one. And at some point that pong piece is gonna get out of position and he's gonna get behind. And it would happen consistently, consistently. And in my tennis brain that just goes.

Torrey Hawkins (15:34.411)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (15:42.629)
Okay, that's probably four and four, three and four every time. It's just the math doesn't math out on this one. But that's the ceiling though, right? So.

Torrey Hawkins (15:52.876)
I will, I will add to that as a coach. I've always used this even when I was working with you back in the day. Hard to quantify this, but there's ball speed and foot speed. Every player has their own, right? I've said some players were blessed because they did not have as much ball speed and it made their foot speed that much better. So therefore they were fast by definition ball speed.

Alvin Owusu (15:55.453)
Please.

Alvin Owusu (16:06.491)
Yeah. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (16:22.636)
here, foot speed here makes you fast. Ball speed a little better. You're still really quick. You're quick.

Taylor fritz has ball speed. He's not slow. He's a good athlete, but his ball speed is a tad bit higher. And at times you can get yourself hit out of your own coverage area. Yannick center is at the perfect 45 55 ball speed foot speed and he can handle anything you bring. I think for the listeners Novak.

Alvin Owusu (16:37.501)
He's a good athlete.

Torrey Hawkins (17:02.008)
was the previous ultra mix of 40 and 60. He had 60 on the ball on the foot speed and 40 on ball speed with the ability to use your pace. He counters some things. He got a nice serve. He had a good ball. He started coming to the net with some serve volley recently. He can hit a nice step up forehand and wrong foot you. Novak's never going to blitzkrieg you through the court. He's just never, that's just not his game. And it doesn't need to be. 24 grand slams. He's doing quite right. He's doing fine. Whatever he's doing, he's doing right.

Alvin Owusu (17:06.071)
Yeah. okay. Okay.

Alvin Owusu (17:28.763)
He's doing it right. Whatever he's doing, he's doing it right. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:32.632)
Taylor Fritz is that throwback. He's that better Roddick, if you will, that has a game. He has a better backhand. He's got a little just a tad more variety. take nothing from Andy. Andy had everything. It's just a matter of him. couldn't get him behind the circle. He was so big. Another example of ball speed and foot speed. Andy's a good athlete. Taylor might be as good, maybe a tad quicker than Andy around the court. Maybe even a tad taller. But I'm telling you, Alden.

Alvin Owusu (17:37.528)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (17:59.832)
problem comes to ball speed and foot speed. His ball speed's higher and Yannick's isn't. And so when Yannick gets to that darn ball, Fritz may be, and he's always tending to take that big forehand. You're taking risks. Every time you take a risk, you hit that inside out with a good backhand. We all know that from club level all the way to college. But down the line, it comes open. Even if it's just to move you and open up your backhand, you are now in the matchup you don't want to be in. That.

is the rock paper scissors I get to. And I want to reference that because at some point, people can't always understand why is that guy better? Why is that? What do you mean by matchups? The matches in this case is just that. And I feel like those are things where as you start, we make them take that theme through the rest of the players you're gonna talk about from Ben Shelton to Tiafoe to Tommy Paul to any of the, to my main man, Peter Korda. You start running Peter, sorry, Sebastian. You start understanding.

all of them have a similar, you know, coefficient, if you will, of that ball speed and foot speed, some of it works well, certain surfaces work well with others. Wimby, to me, aids the ball speed, foot speed, you know, to a degree. If there's a surface for it to really be to its benefit, it's going to be on the grass. But man, and then surface for it not to, it's going to be the clay, right? So there's all these things where, and then we come into Australia. One reason why we talked about this before.

Alvin Owusu (19:17.791)
Right, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (19:23.166)
Australia with Yannick Center uncertain with the whole doping situation. That's the big wild card because that could be a huge opportunity. Go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (19:30.017)
Okay, so his day in court will not occur before the Australian Oven. It was set as early as, I think it's something like as early as the 15th of February, but he's already not on the docket. Yeah, so it's like it won't happen until, I mean, well.

Torrey Hawkins (19:40.504)
No!

Torrey Hawkins (19:44.152)
Well, all bets are off him. He's running out the clock like like old 45 47. Hey, you heard it right here. You heard it right here. That is unfortunate because if that's the case, he will play Australia. And unfortunately, in my opinion, he's the favorite in this situation. All play is not interrupted. Now.

I'll let you pick on to your next one. Thank you for that, Tim, but I was not aware that the court date had been set. Everybody in tennis should be upset.

Alvin Owusu (20:13.769)
Yeah, well no, had been, the date has been set, they haven't established an actual date, it's just not to be before mid-February, yeah, but not before. Yeah, he's on the court docket, he's something like third on, so it's gonna be a little while. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, come back later. But you mentioned the kind of the similarities of these,

Torrey Hawkins (20:24.074)
Right. Not before. Right. Not before. no, not before. not before one o'clock. So, and your match is an early match and you're like, yep, got it. Yep. Come back later.

Alvin Owusu (20:43.381)
the matchups and how the coefficient is very similar for all of our top American men. But the one that is, I think it's actually pretty straightforward for Tommy Paul. And so I actually wanna talk about him a little bit later. The one that I think has the ability to kind of throw everything in the mixer would be Ben Shelton. I don't know what camp I'm in when it comes to Ben.

Torrey Hawkins (20:54.776)
100 %

Alvin Owusu (21:11.797)
But I mean, obviously there's a lot of things to love. he's explosive as all get out, right? That serve is something special. It never hurts being left handed. And all of a sudden, I feel like this year he started, I saw him play in Miami when I was down there in March or April, whatever it was. And he was playing maybe Musetti, I believe. And I'm like, I'm watching him play and I'm like, man, he's...

Torrey Hawkins (21:20.664)
100%.

Yeah, yeah, and toll.

Alvin Owusu (21:38.955)
He's staying in rallies. He looks somewhat solid. Like the backhand is just kind of, he's just not making errors on the backhand side. Obviously he's not hurting anybody, but he's just getting backhands cross court till he finds the forehand somewhere in the middle and then he's gonna try to turn on it and then he likes to come forward. It seems almost very, I hate to use another lefty comparison, but he's almost Rzeszewski-ish. Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (21:48.226)
Yeah, yeah. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (21:53.612)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (22:04.044)
Yep, yep, yep, I would agree with that. I would agree with that.

Alvin Owusu (22:08.479)
maybe even to use another weird comparison, maybe even like Tommy Haas a little bit. Like it's just solid back there. Maybe the Haas was a little far off, but I don't, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (22:18.606)
Yeah, yeah, but with the one in righty, but I think to your point, he is the difference between Rusetsky and Goran Ivanishvich to me. Goran's serve, people did not appreciate how big Goran's kick and his slice was incredible. He could carve you off and hit you flat out wide with the same toss and you literally had nowhere to go. Holding was a matter of fact. And the only way you got off is if

Goran missed a serve or two and got mad at Goran. Not if you did something. Goran had that same unreal gene that Safin had that was like, buddy, you're lucky I'm fighting myself while I'm playing you. Otherwise, you'd be an afterthought. You know what I mean? And I say that with Ben. think Ben, to me, I love your sense of comparison with the big serve. I think to morph him from where he is, and I know his dad, Brian, very well. And I remember when Ben was born and so was the sister Emma.

Alvin Owusu (22:50.825)
Right, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (23:18.223)
The progression for Ben is to go from Rusetsky to Ivan Izevich with his serve and to get solid with the back and we just won't miss, allow him to get back. He has got very good volleys and the kid can actually hit the curve up very well. In my opinion, he goes for too much, Alvin. He always wants to turn on the ball. He shouldn't have to turn on the ball. He should not have to turn on every single chance he gets. And I think that's the reason why it's big sophomore slump.

Alvin Owusu (23:32.233)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (23:37.515)
Too much wear.

Torrey Hawkins (23:46.863)
He's still trying to, you know, pick the phone up and put the phone back down and too many times instead of just being solid and letting the pressure. One thing I thought ended very well from 2003 on he started letting you realize I'm going to ride out this 30 to 15 point and just grind you. And then I'm going to crank up an ace if not a second survey at 14, 15, as opposed to getting back to 30 all for me pulling the trigger.

Alvin Owusu (23:52.414)
Hehehehehe

Torrey Hawkins (24:14.335)
Missing the first and then having you on me and grinding me out to state and made to go to 30-40 It's a big difference in the score You got to play the score as a big server and I think Ben is too busy trying to turn on his ball Maybe drinking a little bit of his own I don't say it badly every young player does it drinking his own cool ain't a little bit about how big his game is how big the serve is and sometimes when you win big by risking big you kind of go to that a little bit like I can do it again and the reality you can but you shouldn't have to

And I think at that point, he just needs to be able to kind of not. It's such an easy thing to say. So hard to do. But I think if he just were to apply you apply more pressure, he would find himself using that big server. He's a little looser, a little bit more, a little bigger target. And I as a big server, you know, back in the day in the black and white days, I had a decent serve and my one of my players on my team at G State told me, and I never forgot this. Sometimes the flat is so effective and you don't see it.

And therefore, if you see it less, it stays big. If I see it often, I get a groove on it. I'm used to it. It's the easiest to return if you have hands and it's the easiest serve to miss if you're toss or timing just a little bit off. So it's a double loose. You better be hitting it big. You better hit a flat body a bunch of times just to back off and then use that because the guy's going to touch the ball early. Use that when you're slicing kick have got the guy coming forward.

Alvin Owusu (25:18.399)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (25:42.637)
I'm not here to talk tennis. His dad and him have got a great camp. I'm just talking. It seems to be a lot of risking in his game and therefore not the same results. That's my point.

Alvin Owusu (25:51.809)
So then do you think then that if, for Ben to go from somewhere around 20 in the world, which is kind of around a 16-ish level at the majority of the slams, consistently, to move into top 10 in the world, one, let me ask this question at a larger level. Yeah, 2023 he had a, yeah, he was knocking on the door.

Torrey Hawkins (25:59.311)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (26:09.881)
Mm-hmm.

And he was close there if not right there a year and a half ago. Was he not eight or so? Eight or eight or nine of the door? Was he 10, 11? Did he make top 10?

Alvin Owusu (26:20.581)
I think he did really well in the slams in 23. think he, yeah, yeah, not so good at the others. What, quarterfinal and Australia maybe, and then the semifinal at the US Open. are there, if he's able to calm his game down and almost do less, do you feel that there are 10 players in the world better than him?

Torrey Hawkins (26:24.975)
Right, and not so good with the others. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (26:46.159)
That's a great question.

Alvin Owusu (26:46.362)
Like even if he does it, is he a top 10 player?

Torrey Hawkins (26:51.193)
Yes. And I'll tell you why. Are there 10 better right now? Yes. Are there 10 if he calms down? He's one of the 10. I think there's seven. And I think one of them is Novak. I think Novak could be on that. This, in my opinion, could be his swan song year. I know he's going to try to play until he can't, but I think that he's,

Novak is also about to go through what I call the Nadal retirement, which means he's around, but he's only going to play one to two, maybe three major year due to injuries, due to health, due to not being 100%. And let's face it, he's at the point and he's earned it where he's, he's playing for Grand Slam. He's not playing for points, rankings and such. He will be around at every major period in the story. So with that said, unfortunately, because of his round of 16 slash twin in the world status, he will run into Novak.

Alvin Owusu (27:36.152)
Right, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (27:47.488)
You'll get Novak early.

Torrey Hawkins (27:48.247)
more in the quarters. So unfortunately, will he ever get there without beating Novak? Not a chance. He'll be in one of those quarters. He'll be in one of those draws and he's going to run up against the Novak, the center, the Carlos and such. I think he actually matched up very well to Carlos. Ironically, Carlos blocks a lot of balls back on certain returns and as quick as he is in lefty, Carlos stays back quite a bit. I think his game actually matched up well to Carlos. I also think that Yannick and Novak

horrible matchups and I think he matched up to other Americans very well, including Tiafoe and I think he would also match up very well against Francis and Paul and Taylor. I think he would because he sees those as his boys. know, there's no and in his mind on any given day, I can beat you straight up. Just watch me. And I like that bit of his game. If he were to have Taylor, unfortunately for Taylor, unfortunately for Foe.

Alvin Owusu (28:18.576)
Bad, yeah, terrible.

Alvin Owusu (28:28.923)
Taylor.

Torrey Hawkins (28:44.483)
That would be a situation where I would give Ben, if he's hot and he's calmed down, I would give him the edge, even though on paper they're ranked a tad higher.

Alvin Owusu (28:53.006)
Okay, so then it turns into the, know, for the, let's say for the next three years or so, then we're talking about like, it's the Russian infantry, right? It's the, not Zverev, obviously he's German, but you've got Mevedev and you've got Rublev and you've got, who else pops up in there? I think those two, Casper, D-Minor, like those are the guys kind of that are also in his, like they're not, they're all in their mid-20s. So do you believe that?

if he catches any of them in the quarterfinals of a, or even round of 16 of a major, that if he calms down, can move past them. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (29:27.909)
He's playing well. 100 % 100 % mind you a grind plays well and so on. a different he to me is going to take a bit of a track like Boris Becker played. He's going to have a couple flashy he's had his couple flash to the pan not to Boris's grand slam level but that was a different era. I think and then didn't take Boris over five years to win I think when the US Open next he had to develop the rest of his game. Flashy literally gunslinging.

You know, there were times Boris was two first serves. I mean, just screw it. I'm gonna do it. And that was a lot about his confidence and his cojones, as they say. But he was just like, why not? Right? And as you get older, you realize, why not? Because once you get broken, you're done. That's why not. And I think that's one of those things where I think Ben's learned that. I think his camp is gonna get him right. I have utmost respect for Brian Sheldon, his dad, and long time coach, both here at Tech as well as at Florida. I think-

Alvin Owusu (30:12.056)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (30:24.141)
that's gonna get through to him. And I think that Ben is a competitor. And I think that he won't want to be called that one and done or flash in a pan type of player. I think he's got all the goods. He stays healthy and stays hungry. He's gonna be just fine. I actually like his, in other words, your three year window you spoke to. I think he's got a five year window simply because he's so young and because the maturity factor is there.

Alvin Owusu (30:47.216)
Well, it's a three year peak, not a three year window, which I don't think he's there yet. I don't think he's hit his three year peak yet. Yeah, he's not climbing yet.

Torrey Hawkins (30:52.741)
100%. I don't think he's picked. really don't. think he's literally kind of overachieved for his start. And I think that he is, you see what saying? I think he overachieved and perhaps that almost set up a bit of failure for the next year because he shot year two and year one, you know what I mean? And really kind of caught a couple of nice draws and whatnot. I'll say it to say, he's someone I feel has a bright, bright future. And that's something to the others don't.

Alvin Owusu (31:01.38)
Right. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (31:11.535)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (31:20.055)
I say this is a tad brighter because he overachieved and he comes back this year hungrier and really as you say, tone down, just not as risky, not as, you know, not using all of his tools just to get out of jams, but using them at times where he needs to to really accentuate the point. I think he could do a nice job. I think the person we're not talking about when we need to is Francis Tiafoe. And I think personally, in my opinion,

He might be on the last year, year and a half of that three year peak, if you will. And I say that because, because his matchup with Shelton a year or so ago, and he just hasn't seen as well as himself or been able to really compete at that level since. And I will dovetail that into Tommy Paul after you give me your thoughts.

Alvin Owusu (32:09.498)
Okay, so it's interesting that we've got Tommy, Taylor, and Francis, right? These are kind of the, obviously there are three or four highest ranked Americans. They're all about the same age, 27, 27, 26, something like that, and they all came up together, right? I remember seeing these guys all hanging out with each other at 80 Her, maybe like 2014, something like that, I was down there. And they've been, they are the ones who the next generation, the true generation has come in this together.

Torrey Hawkins (32:23.065)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (32:29.827)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (32:39.078)
I

I think the thing about Francis and I tend to look at Francis and Taylor as kind of like one A and one B. I feel like Francis can, he can spark his ceiling every once in a while and play a little bit outside of himself to make you think he is a top five talent. But he doesn't have, there's something that he doesn't have that won't allow him to do it over a long period of time.

Torrey Hawkins (32:49.839)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (32:59.684)
Okay?

Torrey Hawkins (33:03.023)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (33:11.709)
Right, so we're talking about a long period of time can be a full season, a long period of time can be two weeks, right? The way we look at time in tennis is a little bit different. And that's what I think keeps him from consistently getting to the back end of slams outside of the US Open. Now granted, he was playing some good ball at Wimbledon this year and just kind of ran into Carlos, but unfortunately running into Carlos is kind of part of the deal, right? If you wanna, if you wanna,

Torrey Hawkins (33:15.481)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (33:39.46)
I love it.

Alvin Owusu (33:40.027)
If you want to be the man, you got to beat the man. And I'm sorry if you lost to him at the two grand slams, like this is in five sets, like, well, you got to win those matches. And maybe he's, I don't know that he wants it that badly.

Torrey Hawkins (33:52.581)
To be considered a threat to win it again. Thank you. And that he'd made the matchup. The problem to me, Francis has phenomenal game outside of a major weapon. I know a lot of coaches may disagree. I think this grittiness is hard despite his weapon. I get all that. But at the end of the day, assuming the other player has the same grit and the same tenacity and the same hustle, well, then what else you're bringing to the table? You gotta go through them.

Alvin Owusu (34:20.147)
You gotta go through. You gotta go through.

Torrey Hawkins (34:22.069)
And as I've told you remember, you remember a few players I've told this to, they're not going to give it to you. You got to take it from them. And at some point, what does he have to take it to take it from them, which is why I think Ben has a slightly brighter future with that. And mind you, never count out a fighter like, like, like Francis, never. Fo is going to always be a thorn in your side. And he's one of those players. I think I played with 35, you know, just because you told him he couldn't. I don't think he'll be a threat to win a slam.

at 35. I think he's got a window to win a slam or to be a consistent semi or better. I think that windows closing right now just due to everything from age to current levels game. But don't sleep. He's one of those kind of guys that if if Novak were to get hurt and pull out of that side of the draw, his future and his that draw all of a sudden becomes Francis, he knows how to win. I'm not saying this, I'm a dovetailing to Tommy next.

He knows how to win. And if you show weakness and the ability to not close him out, he's a player that you would never want to play on that deck.

Alvin Owusu (35:29.693)
think ironically, I think even though his best results have been at the US Open, it's it's almost the Francis Tiafoe show, right? It's the later he gets in the tournament, the more he becomes, like he becomes almost a different person, right? Like he's a gamer.

Torrey Hawkins (35:40.409)
no question. He's a gamer. He plays for the crowd. He's energized from the crowd. They all come out to watch him. He's a showman. He loves that, relishes that.

Alvin Owusu (35:48.243)
But I could see him just randomly winning Wimbledon. That's the kind of, it's not gonna happen at the US Open. He's gonna mess around and almost accidentally win Wimbledon. Because I think.

Torrey Hawkins (36:04.54)
I could see your point and don't get me wrong if the draw if the draw turns right no question I agree with you. I don't

Alvin Owusu (36:11.245)
I don't put anyone necessarily on grass, smack, because grass favors athletes. think that's the tricky thing about it. Ball doesn't come up, you gotta have strong hips, you kinda need to, don't, I mean, as they still have the grass down, almost, it seems like every year, you don't really wanna be all that tall, right? So as the serve becomes less and less of a weapon there, I just feel like it takes so much hand skills.

Torrey Hawkins (36:19.164)
Yep. Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (36:32.346)
Yup. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (36:40.016)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (36:40.822)
to do well on grass, like his, his ability to kind of bump the ball around the court every once in a while and low. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (36:45.372)
100 % and low to your point and a little wonky every once in a while. know, top spin don't work well on the grass. You know what I mean? Slices, drop shots, a little bit of flatness. I've always said that the one, the best thing about the grass is if you can, if you have kind of an awkward ball, I remember Marion Bartoli from years ago who had, you see, I had just a weird ball. Two head on both sides. Her ball came off almost knuckle ball. It was the hardest ball to handle on the grass because every bounce was different anyway.

Alvin Owusu (36:51.133)
Yeah!

No. Worthless.

Alvin Owusu (37:05.908)
Okay, yep.

Torrey Hawkins (37:14.266)
So Thompson almost gives you little bit of something, a little bit of feel to kind of hit off off, but the flatness and his backhand can be, has that kind of herky-jerky kind of move and that little hitch kick to it. And that is great on grass, almost lack of depth on hardcore, but on grass, he's quick enough and he reads so, so well. He'll get around on the forward on you in a heartbeat. And what about what he did, Yankee in front of you? I mean, been looking at you and he's on, and you didn't even know that he went behind you. I mean, he one of those kinds of things where he just has a real good ability to hold the ball and his shots, his shot.

Alvin Owusu (37:14.432)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (37:43.876)
just long enough for you to kind of commit and go somewhere else. I love that about Francis games. Right. Makes it fun to watch. He's had to really adapt, you know, his, skills, you know, to be able to strike when you didn't, when you least expect it to, because it doesn't have some of the big weapons. so your point totally agree. Is he, is it possible? Yes. Likely he's going to some help. Let's put it like that way. He's going to need some help in that draw to get that far. Right. Yep. He's going to always know should it break, he will be there.

Alvin Owusu (38:03.602)
Right. Yeah, I think that's the case at all the draws though, at all the slams. He's always gonna need a little bit of help. Something needs a...

Torrey Hawkins (38:13.232)
You know, as the old line in snatch, you know, you're on thin ice and I shall be under it when it breaks. So he's that player that's always lurking just underneath. Everybody's healthy. Everybody's playing up to form quarters and quarters will be a good accomplishment for him for the next, in my opinion, this next year's slams. Something happens as it always does. I think he's the next back in the top 10 of your group, in my opinion, possibly even before Ben.

Alvin Owusu (38:19.084)
Hahaha

Torrey Hawkins (38:42.394)
because Ben's gonna have to play up to that point while he can turn it on quickly. Ben's gonna have to play up and get back into that form. Francis is there. He just needs some help with the draw.

Alvin Owusu (38:49.58)
Okay, okay. You briefly mentioned Tommy Paul before that and I think we've had a ride with Tommy, right? One of our top juniors coming out in the world. Took some time to adjust to life as a professional tennis player and I'll put it that way. But he is now here, right? He finished top 15 last two years and he's starting to become somewhat of our

Torrey Hawkins (39:00.54)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (39:06.876)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (39:18.284)
our metronome, right? Like he's there, he's there. What do you think it's gonna take for Tommy, if he has it, to go from right behind, let's say right behind Francis and Taylor to bumping into that conversation as maybe even jumping in front of Francis, if we're both on the same page, about Taylor's probably the one that's going to kind of be the perennial top five, has the ability to do so.

Torrey Hawkins (39:19.782)
Yup. Yup.

Torrey Hawkins (39:47.996)
Just end the game. Let's be honest. And he has to gain to do so. There are, I'm going to call them archetypes, prototypes. can, you can choose, you can choose the term in this case. The Casper Rude was our last one in the, on the men's side. it goes back to Leighton Hewitt in the early 2000s. You could even take it back to the Mats V. Londer types as his prototype back in the, you know, late eighties, early nineties.

Alvin Owusu (39:57.345)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (40:15.159)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (40:18.024)
mid 80s I should say. You can look in the women's game right it was Caroline Wozniacki you know it was the who's just just a player that is just that Ega is the ultimate version of this unfortunately right now and has clicking on all four cylinders but it's just that player that Hengis was more to my point of this kind of player that just always was 95 percent

accuracy on everything tough to play tough to be never miss those returns not a lot to beat you with but will not miss the ball. I think your girl Zhang how do I say her first name the Chinese lady is the left. Sheung-shen Wen she is a however I always have hard time saying her name. She is that player now for on the women's game to me. She just doesn't miss balls and you go out there. It is an emotional grind. It is a is a it is a match.

You know, they're not going to give you anything. I just don't know if Tommy can beat some of those players who had the firepower to go through him at certain times with the bigger serve. And if you work that hard, if you can protect your serve and you can then get the break, Tommy doesn't have a ton to beat you with. Now here's the thing for the top 20 below he's deaf. You see him in the jar. but there you go. Let's start looking at, let's start looking at flights. If you, if you are one of those top five or top 10 players.

You know, he can be beaten. You know, you can, you have the goods to get through. You know, you can, you can hold serve. And I just think it's one of those games where to me, to me, the final hit two years ago in Australia, obviously I know he's had some good results in this past year. This will be a year for him to clean up at the 1000s. This will be a year for him to clean up on the 500s, really get his points up there quite a bit and just be a threat with his seeding and his points to be top five, top six, top 10 in the seeds.

to let his seeding help him through the draws. And that way he won't face the Novak, Carlos and Yannick early. And that way that can help him, you know, mathematically get to a quarter, maybe, you know, walk into a semi when those guys has a bad day. I still feel, and I love Carlos, Carlos has the most up and down game. And the reason I'm referencing that with Tommy Paul, Tommy's in that half of the draw. Tommy will take care of Carlos's draw. Make no mistake.

Torrey Hawkins (42:45.575)
He will ride that draw in as if it's his draw. And he's one of those kind of players. I mean, I could see Carlos winning it. I could see him having a night out. He just get a little crazy and he could lose to a guy, a qualifier. He has that kind of volatility still and he's still young. And I think it's one of those concentrations where Tommy's that player. mentioned Teofil needs some help.

Alvin Owusu (42:49.538)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (43:09.01)
Sorry, Fulton needs some help in the draw to get to that point. Tommy's already there. He needs help to get to the semi or to the final with one of those guys going down. And if one of those guys went down and you know the guys, Zverev is a bad day. And I think every year going forward, he is a little bit of a, if he's not in it to win it mentally, he could cash in his chips and get a little frustrated and be pissed off that he's not playing the tennis he thinks he needs to, to get that level. Rubalev is another one I think is kind of the way he's.

Alvin Owusu (43:11.523)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (43:38.322)
kind of at the mentally may not be may not be 100 % good with where he's at. I read an article the other day about about a player retiring at 26. It was your boy Robin Soderling, you know, and some of his players that are retiring early, you know, and I said to myself, I'm like, these guys remind me of these guys that might just cash in their chips at 2829 or 30 and 31. You know, they've made their money. They're the legends back home. They know they're probably not going to win one of Novak and those guys. They're going to give it a year or two. But you let

Alvin Owusu (43:51.083)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (44:07.623)
that's an interesting, that's an interesting thought.

Torrey Hawkins (44:08.656)
You let a knee surgery or you let a waning, they've been keeping it under wraps for a while. These guys aren't an adult. They don't have this kind of grit. They're not gonna go through two knee surgeries and two lip surgeries and come back out and try to win one. And they have won one yet? No, no. They're gonna come out and be, and I looked at Harrison Buckers, think I'm a Chiefs fan, that leg ain't right. It just ain't right. And so now, instead of a guy who's been a top player at his level, comparing it to football,

These guys may not be the same. You know, you need two good legs and tennis. Something goes down, a knee, hip, something. You know, what's your point?

Alvin Owusu (44:44.848)
I know I was just kind of thinking about that. Like, okay, these guys are all in that you can even put sits to pass into this group, right? These guys are in the in the in the 26 to 28 years old age range. Like they're not, you know, they're not next gen anymore and they're not old yet. But in two years, right? We're not talking 26, 28. We're talking about 20 to 30. They've been at it for 11 years on tour. Take these, take Djokovic and the doll out as these anomalies of guys who are playing into their mid thirties and playing at a very high level. Like what does that

Torrey Hawkins (44:50.063)
100 % puts its best in there.

Torrey Hawkins (45:10.201)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (45:14.096)
at some point, I mean, they made a lot more money than they need. I could see someone like, said, Sebastian's going, you know what? I'm out. Mental health, I'm gone, I'm done.

Torrey Hawkins (45:25.039)
And that's a tournament that Tommy Paul will win. And I think Tommy will play that long. think he and Phil both have this kind of, I'm a win one for you. I promise y'all win one before you. And they had this kind of, I don't care if it's the cafeteria at the USDA training, sit down at Lake Nona or they're texting each other on the phone later. They just had this running thing. I think that Taylor's right there with them. I think they're probably the most competitive of the two. Taylor has to me as the most prolific game.

And I think because of that, assuming they stay injury free and they're, you know, the sun, moon, the stars line up for the health. I think those two could have another three to four years of absolute relevancy. And then those last, you know, once you get past 30, you're playing against father time too. And at that point, it could be something different. But I think the reason I reference with older players is because they're getting that much closer to that father time window and they're getting that much closer to that tough injury that unfortunately just happens.

Alvin Owusu (46:11.653)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (46:23.917)
You don't ever wish it on anybody, but let's face it. The older you get, the more wear and tear on the body you get. And for the lack of, know, it's just gonna happen to somebody, it's a matter of who, at what point, who's on the other side of that drop benefiting from that and allowing themselves to walk into that semi, possibly think it happened kind of a moment, as I said. don't, no one wants to play, no one wants to sign up to play Tommy in a match.

Alvin Owusu (46:39.129)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (46:50.653)
Even if it's just because he's going to play your five sets before your next match, you know what mean? And just and drain your juice. just feel like he's a all three of them have great talking about Taylor, Tommy and Francis. They all have different ways to beat you. But I feel like each of them a little different to I feel like Tommy is is just right there. He needs he needs one or two of the big ones to not come. And then he needs and where Francis needs help in the draw to get past the quarter.

Alvin Owusu (47:15.526)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (47:19.861)
I think he's the shoe in to get to most quarters. He's just that good, that solid. He just needs one of them to bow out or have an upset to allow him to get back to his form, his ranking form from two years ago.

Alvin Owusu (47:34.738)
Okay, let me put this to you. And I think this is kind of where we fall on different sides of the argument here. We spent the last 45-some odd minutes talking about Tommy Paul and Taylor Fritz and Francis Tiafoe and Ben Shelton. We got four, I mean, let's just look at these three. Let's take Ben out of it and even Sebi Korda who's finished the year ranked 22, right?

Torrey Hawkins (47:36.685)
you.

Torrey Hawkins (48:00.715)
My personal favorite, by the way. I love the kids game. I just love watching them regardless. But keep going.

Alvin Owusu (48:06.522)
Okay, okay, actually before I ask my, no, no, before I ask my question, then let me ask you about Sam Korda. What is it about his game that everyone loves yet he hasn't been able to do much with it yet?

Torrey Hawkins (48:23.785)
And I don't know if he, when you say do much in terms of winning a slam, I don't know if he will.

Alvin Owusu (48:28.684)
Not even winning a slam, just living up to the expectations, not the expectations, but people love his game. He's like that, he's almost, everyone's like, he's so smooth, he's got the great game. I've seen him up close in person. I too think he looks like he should have all the things, so what is the thing that he's missing?

Torrey Hawkins (48:36.369)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (48:51.467)
Yeah, I've always felt that players of the players, kids of players always have the weight of the world. And you heard it right here, Peter Korda, heck of a player. Him winning that not only gave Sebi the name, the lifestyle and the leg up, it also is its own kryptonite.

Alvin Owusu (49:16.797)
Curse. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (49:17.647)
It just is, it just is, I, you know, I remember talking to Trent Bride, one of our players, and he was playing some with Sebi, they were playing this little game of bounce down. But we were at the Tulsa, the B1 ITF at the same time. They were there together. Right after I talked to you, they went on the court. They were playing the little game of bounce down or what. And just sounded stupid waiting for court to open up. And I remember Sebi within about three minutes of the game.

Alvin Owusu (49:29.299)
Same age,

Alvin Owusu (49:34.545)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (49:47.068)
figured out how to play the game. And Alvin, I've never seen anybody do a behind the back, not looking bounce down. Not only is it hard to do, but he did it because he kind of figured it out. And he kind of realized that he, at first he did it with a little hop and kind of went behind, and then he started doing behind the back drop shots. And then he went deep in the short. And I said, hmm, you know what Trent's answer was? And I love Trent. Trent says,

Alvin Owusu (49:54.419)
Hahaha

Torrey Hawkins (50:16.616)
That's royalty in your blood. You just have it, right? And I'm laughing. like, what if the kid just adjusts that fast? What if the kid just has that good a hand eye, right? You can make an argument on why he has it, but what if he just has it, right? That's the smoothness you speak to. Now, I think, I run up to Trent's point, I think the tennis royalty is what curses it. It's the, should be doing this.

Alvin Owusu (50:32.082)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (50:44.552)
I've got two sisters that are the top of the LPGA right now. One in particular, you know, and doing swimsuit illustrating, you know, endorsements right now. And I'm still grinding right now. And I'm grinding out. I am still made into a semi yet. You know what mean? So there's all of that. That's a tough household. Can you imagine being over there? Can you pass some potatoes? No. Win one first. You know what I mean? Get your own potatoes. You know what mean? And that's a that's a

Alvin Owusu (50:47.538)
Right, yeah, that's the...

Alvin Owusu (50:57.942)
No, Nellie's killing it.

Alvin Owusu (51:10.077)
Eh, eh.

getting the single digits in the world and we can talk.

Torrey Hawkins (51:14.695)
Right, right, right. I mean, that's a tough, that's a tough family right there. I said to say that to me is what's still killing him. He needs to let it go. He needs to move on. He needs to say, you know what, screw it. I'm gonna have a great time out here. Screw y'all. You know what mean? And I'm gonna play tennis my way. And I think once he plays free and then put, which is hard to do, obviously you, that's you, you come to that every day and the comparisons once you start doing well, what are they gonna do?

We'll compare it more, you know what I mean? To Peter and the whole family, this and that, as if you finally figured it out. And in reality, it's each player's journey, but that's my only thing. I don't want to take up too much time with Sebi and hope he stays healthy. His thing to me is going to be staying healthy. You know what I mean? Because if he can do that, again, another player didn't have a ton of weapons, but he's so, so, fun to watch. You gave me a bunch of matches in middle of the day when all the big timers aren't playing and they're trying to get them in on early matches and late matches, and you got a chance to watch Sebi Korda.

Alvin Owusu (51:49.97)
Right, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (52:05.86)
Go by, get yourself some food and just get as best seat as you can and just sit behind the kid and just watch him work. He is an artist. The tennis rack is a paintbrush in his hand. And it's just to me, it's a nice way to watch the better part of two hours in the afternoon and just watching him try to think on his level as you're watching him hit certain shots. And it's just, it's just beautiful to watch. Anyway, move on to your.

Alvin Owusu (52:16.946)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (52:30.975)
So yeah, so I mean we can kind of like, as far as putting a bow on it, right? We've got five American men in the top, let's call it 25 in the world, right? No other country has more than three. mean Italy's got two, right? Russia's got three. So why is that not enough? I would say that we are the, you could say we're the best country for producing male.

Torrey Hawkins (52:40.826)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right? Yep.

Alvin Owusu (52:59.797)
tennis players right now.

Torrey Hawkins (53:01.732)
Hats off to the USDA and all they've done. Hats off to all the coaches that have done it and been doing it for a long time. Hats off to all the double coaches. 2.0, 3.0 versions of me and guys that have really done it and kept going. I think these guys have done a phenomenal job. Why is it not enough? Well, why is never enough? That's our culture, unfortunately. And I feel like with the history and the precedent that our former American players have put down, unfortunately, all we talk about is ships. And so if you're not talking about a ship at the end of the day,

Alvin Owusu (53:03.261)
Why is that not enough?

Torrey Hawkins (53:31.46)
It's to me still not enough. Do I think they've given their chance, their players a chance to be at that, be in that conversation? Yes. Do I think any of these players this year are a threat to a legitimate threat with current staff and current players in the mix to win a Grand Slam? I do not. I think there's too much. There's too many current champions that they have to go through to do so. And I think that it's just going to be a tough thing. And none of their game, the exception of Taylor has the kind of game to go through.

Alvin Owusu (53:53.534)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (53:59.788)
And he in particular happens to have the highest loss of the win loss column against those same top three or four players. So I think that's where it's just a tough thing to call. Do I think there's another one coming? Now, that's a tough question for you. I do not. And that's why we should relish these handful of players coming up. I think these guys are doing a phenomenal job. I wish that we had another young Andy Roddick coming up to boost up behind Taylor. I wish we had four more.

Francis Tiafos. I wish we had eight Tommy Pauls that were just showing themselves to be phenomenal players. unfortunately, you really, again, you appreciate how good somebody is. Then you look at boots behind them, and the rear view looks really distant. So that's why not enough? Because that's our culture, we expect more. Why is it more than people understand and appreciate? Because to your point, no other country doing it. We do have the most number of players to some degree, we have a lot of resources. I recall France

And they're always my go-to for the top developing country because France is, you know, my opinion, a little bit bigger than Texas, you know, give or take. know, I know I'm spit balling that it could, it could be right. I'm just saying if I had to, if I had to look overall area, obviously the population is much higher. But if I had to look at the country versus our country and the size and the athletes, mind you, they're getting, you know, as you call it, my main man, GMP and, and, and other players, they're getting.

Alvin Owusu (55:08.575)
Right, maybe, maybe.

Torrey Hawkins (55:25.505)
They're getting all the top athletes and they're still stealing some camera. Don't get me wrong. But there, I feel like our top players are still being pulled. We don't want to get in that conversation per se, but that's also something you have to put your, got to put your, you just got to have to put the perspective on it. You know what I mean? You, you look at these players every Saturday playing college football and you look at that, that kid that there are, there are 33 players that are second string that are phenomenal athletes that they had a record in every 10 years.

perhaps could be that next wave, right? There are 33 of them. You know, there's six, six guys on the team. There's 33 of these guys that are second stream that might be phenomenal, you know, with, with hand-dying athleticism, if we gave them a chance. And we're talking from all the schools. We're not even talking just the top. So I say that to say, I think it's, it's a, it's unfortunate. It's an unfortunate cultural thing. It's unfortunate like appreciation. And, and I won't get into all the reasons why tennis has not, but I think that that's, we're still in my opinion. If you put

Those same four players, Taylor, Tommy, Francis, Ben, and you put them in the combine. Okay, combine not not a combine of to become a pro. There may not be a an event that they went.

Torrey Hawkins (56:43.935)
Okay, some of these guys may not even get drafted.

Torrey Hawkins (56:50.183)
And yet they're better athletes. You get what I'm saying? And so I just have to put that in perspective to say it's not that they're overachieving. I feel like the country's overachieving with all we're putting in. But the biggest thing we haven't done, I got in a bigger argument, you know, casual argument with Patrick Mackerel about this. And he says, John said the same thing. So we're going back and forth. But I said when Patrick was head of planning development many years ago, I was like, get.

Alvin Owusu (56:50.274)
mean, Tommy. Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (57:16.869)
me, you want the best chicken salad, start with the best chicken. And I go back and forth on that. And that's another episode, perhaps. But that to me is still we're doing and that's why we don't have a true, I'm gonna say phenomenal athlete. I feel like Australia is somehow mixed with the Frankenstein laboratory and literally nabbed and kidnapped Curios.

Alvin Owusu (57:20.28)
Nice checkin'.

Torrey Hawkins (57:36.798)
and said, look son, you're going to play tennis. I don't care what you say. And then after 10 years, you know what you want to do. But at that point, I feel like that was kind of what it was. Ironically, Morant Safin said he wanted to play hockey. And mom said, nope, you're playing tennis. And so there was a whole funny article written about him. He didn't want to play tennis. The tennis world is grateful he did, because the guy was so unbelievably great. And he may have been just an average hockey player. We don't know. But I said to say.

Give me five more, give me 10 more who are as athletic, if not more so. I think you now have 15 guys, 20 guys in the top 50. And then at that point, you definitely have a number one. And one of them, I guarantee it will be of that new backs that has just a tad, tad bit more something in the tank. Hand eye, athleticism size, something. Alvin, GMP, six, nine. Six, eight. I mean, come on. Tommy's five, eight. Five, nine. Is he five, 10?

Alvin Owusu (58:26.139)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, so I,

Alvin Owusu (58:32.734)
Tommy's close to six foot. Yeah, somewhere in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think that the athleticism thing could be a tad bit overvalued. We can get into it a little bit deeper on another episode, but I do feel like there is a point of diminishing returns when we're talking about athleticism in tennis because the size of the court ain't changing. You need to be athletic enough. You would say that all these guys are athletic enough, but.

Torrey Hawkins (58:34.397)
Yeah, 510 at 510 the best. Just saying.

Alvin Owusu (59:02.324)
More athleticism does not mean more results. At some point, you need enough athleticism to get to a certain level. And then the other things that you mentioned, it's the hand-eye coordination. It's the ability to think well on one's feet. Like if you take some things from Francis and you put them in Taylor's frame right now, maybe we got what we need now, right?

Torrey Hawkins (59:07.217)
I would agree with that.

Torrey Hawkins (59:26.907)
I could not agree. Answer me this one question. want to know we got to move on to the girls. Is there a number one in the last 20 years?

that was not a great athlete.

Alvin Owusu (59:45.63)
No, I mean, well, I mean, could get real in the weeds about this. I Mbemedev did hit number one for like two weeks and he's not the greatest athlete. He moves quite well for his size. But, you know, it's the best movers are the best tennis players, right? There's certain levels of, there's certain, I think there are certain, you know, variables of what we would consider to be athleticism that don't actually show up in tennis, right? Like the vertical plane isn't one that we,

deal with much in tennis, right? It's all, right. Exactly, exactly. So.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:14.714)
100%. The Nike Spark test we have for tennis will be much different than for football. We both agree on that. Roger Federer was a top badminton player and soccer player in Switzerland before he, and had also played tennis. The parents actually wanted him to stay well-rounded, not focus all on tennis. He chose to play tennis and the world's better for it. The Rafael Nadal, right, would have played pro soccer. We know that. He had the speed, the hands and wheels.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:33.167)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:40.858)
He wanted to play tennis and Uncle Tony wanted to play tennis. I think somehow they're one of the famous is connected with one of the top pro teams there in Barcelona. I want to play tennis. Tony, tennis player put it and made him be left handed, the whole thing. Yannick Center was the world championship skier, right? That won whatever, won the gold medal at some big game or don't know it was Olympics, but whatever level. The kid was an athlete in another sport at a high level with a gold medal. And that comes over to tennis.

I just say these things to say Novak, mean, we don't have to talk about the guy does things no one's ever seen on tennis court from splits to everything else. The guy would then test his blood and then start on a bioengineering a player to be as good as Novak. Now that being said, I'm just saying if you put the absolute stats of the athletic components, pick the components you want. I'm telling you, our players are just not at that.

They're not at that 99.9 percentile in my humble opinion. Are they 95 and better? 1000%. But that 99, buddy, woo, that's up.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:45.805)
It's, I mean, you could even use the eye test and say it's a, it comes down to fluidity of movement. Like does your right foot have the same capabilities of your left foot and does your right hand have the same capabilities as your left hand? Like are you perfectly in balance, not just your body, but when your body moves, do you ever look out of balance? And I would say that all the players that have ever been ranked number one in the last 20 years,

never look at a balance. All the players that we talked about here all look a little less than when it comes to movement in some way, shape, or form. Like Francis is fast as all get out, but he's stiff as a board sometimes. Taylor's ability to move around the court, not just laterally, but high ball, low ball, forward, backward, right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:26.872)
Right.

Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:38.455)
If he ain't dictating play, if he ain't dictating play, the great Paul Fortunato used to say the term El Dorado because that's how some people move versus the Porsche or a Ferrari. They move like an old Cadillac El Dorado.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:50.884)
Right. That's a good one. Fortunato. Geez, I haven't heard that name in forever. will, will, I will, I'm going to put this to you. You take Taylor Fritz, Tommy, Francis, Ben. We can even put, we can even put seven there. That is the current order year in rankings this year. I believe that order does not change this time next year. What say you?

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:17.174)
Mmm.

I think all of it changes. I think.

I think one of them subs their toe and the other two move up and I think Seb moves up if he's healthy. And I think each of them could be, each of them could be this year, especially with some volatility with center and all the whole court case could be top 25. Primarily because if one of them does it, I think the other three will all believe they can and should. That's my, that's what I believe.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:50.993)
Do we get, we've got one of the top 10 right now. Do we end up with more than one next year?

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:57.942)
Tough call, think with volatility, yes, two. And right at 10, I think, I think without that volatility, maybe one moves in, maybe one moves out, but they're all right there stair-stepped. And I think it could be one of those kinds of situations. Do I hope? Yes. Do I think it's likely? Hard to say, but I do think each of them moves up a number. The two biggest movers to me being Sebi and Ben Shelton, I think they just had the most upside to go.

I think Francis and Taylor have a lot of points to defend. And I think it's going to be a tough year for them in that regard. So that's why I'm saying it could be tough. And sometimes you look at some of those good finishes, Taylor in particular, it's going to be tough for him to do what he did this year again. And he's going to need a great Australia and some other things to really kick it in, tick it in gear, to start his, you know, defend of his points this next year. Can he do it? 1000%. Is it going to be hard?

1000%. But I think that's why I say he could be the quickest to fall out of that top 10 because his current points come off a phenomenal year ranking wise. No different than Tommy two years ago when he got to the semis or whatever of Australia. You know what mean? Was it semifinal? What was it? Of two years ago in 02. What in the final?

Alvin Owusu (01:05:12.957)
Tommy, Tommy Simian. was actually at the match that he beat Ben Shelton. Yeah, I was there. Yep. He beat, Tommy beat him in the semis.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:17.063)
Semi, you know what mean? Right, because Ben quartered, right, Ben quartered and so coming off that semi, coming off that semi, I don't think Tommy had knew that year in 2023 and this year he's done better. It's just the hard, the slams are hard to defend, man. They are hard to defend. I mean, you're a matcher too and playing some great tennis and huge points and huge money. And man, that's three tournaments worth of points, you know what I mean? That you're having to defend in two matches, you know what mean? In large, in a large degree, so.

Again, I just think it's gonna be a tough thing for him to should he do it? He'll be great. Then I said, that's how we get to I see I see it more likely for him kind of popping out and Tommy maybe slipping in there and obviously and Shelton Shelton is could get hot for two weeks for sure and have the ability to rack up those points in a slam even though he hasn't had some of the same results at some of the 1000s and you know, so many other longer what I call more the true test of of a player's, know, consistency throughout the year. He's certainly a grand slam.

play big when it counts, kind of a player. And I think those two could be the two biggest contests to into the top 10. And again, Sebastian and Ben could be the two biggest movers, I think, this next year, in my opinion.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:27.486)
All right, well, ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here first, Tori. I'm gonna leave you with that. That was fun. I think we're gonna have a good time when we get a chance to work through the current state of the American women on the WTA side, because it's exciting stuff over there right now.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:30.881)
Hmm sounds good

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:42.033)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:45.829)
So exciting and so many more young players up and up and coming and man, you know, and Australia has stayed true to form with Australia being that upset tournament for the women's game. So this could be a great, great event. Really looking forward to, really looking forward to a lot of them. And now they're starting to, the only bad thing is with so many of them, they're gonna start playing each other at some point, right? So that's the only downside.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:06.046)
They're play each other, yeah, yeah. All right, well, thank you guys for joining us, and if you're still rocking with us, make sure you do the thing, the like, follow, subscribe. I'll get it down one of these days, I will, I will. I'm not a robot, I'm not a robot. Tori, again, thank you, and we'll catch you on the next one. All right, man, peace.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:16.945)
All of it my pleasure. Looking forward to it. Peace.