Ep. 08: Coco Gauff, Jessica Pegula, and Emma Navarro: Leading the US Charge in 2025

Alvin Owusu (00:01.005)
What is up people? Welcome to today's episode of the best of three podcast. I'm Alvin joined again by my man, Tori Hawkins. TH, how we doing tonight?

Torrey Hawkins (00:11.448)
What up, what up? Man, I'm doing good. A little feisty tonight. You know, you got me going in the pregame. I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm glad you're not right here. We would be literally, I'm glad we don't have gloves on, you know what I mean? Because it's a verbal jab, but I am 100 % ready. I want you to pick up right where you left off before you press the record button, and let's get right to it.

Alvin Owusu (00:16.364)
it's gonna- yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (00:28.168)
Hahaha

Alvin Owusu (00:38.205)
It's a feisty one, it's a night session. It feels like a Thursday night, first week of the US Open on Ash right now. It's dark out, lights are bright. We can roll. We're not gonna touch the two hour mark today, but we're gonna let this thing fly. First things first, I'm sure you're not watching it. And I'm not watching it either, but.

Torrey Hawkins (00:48.043)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (01:07.613)
What do you know or what are your thoughts on the ATP Next Gen competition that they host? It's being played right now. Give you guys a little peek behind the curtain of when we're actually recording this. But it's being hosted right now in Jeddah in Saudi Arabia. They invite the top eight male players in the world that are under the age of 21. And this event started in 2017, I wanna say, maybe 2016.

And the gist of it is it's more or less the young guns version of the ATP finals, right? Same format, except for they play fast four sets as opposed to best out of three regular sets. Two groups, four players in each group. Round robin, top players move forward and then you get a champion at the end. I am personally, whatever they're doing is working because of

Torrey Hawkins (01:45.836)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:50.529)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (02:06.16)
what I've seen from those who win the event, what they end up doing moving forward. I think it is as good of an indicator of future success as anything. What say you?

Torrey Hawkins (02:19.405)
You, you have a better perspective on this. go back to when I had players on the tour in the mid 2000s, all the way up to the early 2010s. This was always a concept. I talked to some of the higher ex, higher execs and the ATP and WTA. There was always this ranking of the young guns. There was always this, they pulled them off and all they really done now is giving them a tournament to themselves to try to see and market. Quite frankly, I think that's a great move by the ATP and WTA. I.

I will hold my comments on current because I haven't checked the results haven't checked the format itself. I'm currently fighting with the misses about subscriptions and whatnot on various tennis subscriptions. But I will say this, I think it's a great move. I think it's a great move and a great spotlight. I'm going to say the term. It casts a good spotlight on the upcoming players. Something that I think, know, as a coach, upcoming players years ago would have wished they would have had this years ago.

Alvin Owusu (02:58.534)
Hehehehe

Torrey Hawkins (03:19.726)
I think it would have been a great thing. That said, I think it's a great thing. Do I think some of the next gin have a chance to really play at the next level? Well, that's the big, we'll see. My personal opinion is in times gone by, they didn't need it. And I submit to you players like Monica Sellis that won the orange bowl at 11.

Jennifer Capriotti, who won the Orange Bowl at 12, played Wimbledon at 14. So these players were already playing top level ball. They're not that old, Alvin. They're not that far gone. Serena Williams, you know, we have to keep adding more, heap more praise, much deserved praise, I might add, on the goat herself. Serena was a ripe old 17. Braids, beads in the hair. You know, when she took it to the house.

Alvin Owusu (04:16.402)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (04:20.18)
And I want to say 98. Now I say that to say, do we need that level of tournament? think it's great for the fans, great for the upcoming players, 100%. What will their transition be? What will their ascension to the top be? I don't know. I will say this. I'm not so sure. On the men's side, completely granted. These players need to play. They need to play on bigger stages and so on. On the women's side, I'm not so sure.

Alvin Owusu (04:32.784)
Yeah, I think in

Alvin Owusu (04:44.36)
So that's a really good point. That's a good point because they don't have a next-gen women's equivalent. This is ATP only. So it does it for, I'm sure for a lot of reasons that are far outside the purview of this particular podcast. Or if you're on YouTube, what's up? But I think it's a, I say it's a good indicator because I look at the players who have done well in the event, let's say had made the finals of this event since 2017, right? You've got Andrei Rublev, Stefano Sitsipas.

Torrey Hawkins (04:49.848)
Yeah.

Yup.

Alvin Owusu (05:13.992)
Demonor, Yannick Sinner won it in 2019, Carlos won it in 2021, Brandon Nakashima beat Yuri Lahatchka a couple years back in the finals. So like, I think it's doing a good job of highlighting the players that are, now remember, you have to be under the age of 20, or 20 and under by the end of the year. And they take the top eight ranked players of that age group within the, you know, obviously within the ATP ranking. So you're getting the,

Torrey Hawkins (05:14.019)
up

Torrey Hawkins (05:19.194)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (05:33.498)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (05:43.442)
best of that crop. And I think on its own, like okay, if you're under the age of 20, and let's say you're top 50 in the world, that's probably a pretty good sign that you're gonna be alright out here in these streets, So maybe it's more so like your point of highlighting these young players as opposed to being an indicator that this player is going to be good. guess by qualifying for the event, they are already good.

Torrey Hawkins (05:56.433)
100%, 100%.

Torrey Hawkins (06:09.137)
So years ago, I had Rodney Harmon, a good friend of mine who's the head coach now at Georgia Tech, spent 17 years, I believe, at head of player development. One of my many rants and raves with some of the USDA types in those days. I proposed, as he was going to tell me, that's all that's come up before, the 20 and under championship, right? Include every college player, top pro, you name it. I haven't said include any college player. You know what mean? If they're about age, let them play.

Alvin Owusu (06:29.874)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (06:39.025)
and let that be the wild card into the open. That's what my thought was. I said, let's be honest, not many kids winning KZOO are gonna win a round at the open. A 20 year old who's played top level college, a few futures, played some challenges, has a better shot. Give the 18U kid not one, but four chances in the qualies at a bigger event. He needs matches. He doesn't need a spotlight and a wild card in the open to make him a little change.

If he's really gonna be going to college anyway, can't take the bulk of the money anyway. And if he's gonna go pro, he needs the four tournaments to get into those events. To that point, I say it to say the 29er format has been a thing that he told me the tour has been talking about for years. Again, to your point, it's coming to fruition now. Don't get me started on the LIV and the Saudis buying up all the tours. It's a whole nother talk show, but I think it's a great deal.

Alvin Owusu (07:16.922)
Right, right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (07:37.137)
You mentioned some great names there. Brandon should be very honored to be among that group. Some tall cotton brother, some tall cotton Brandon. you can, hey, he is top 40 and buddy, he better screenshot, he better screenshot that ranking right now. I like him, I've seen him play a few times. He played here at the Atlanta Open not long back. I think he's a great kid and a great product of California and I think he's still in Cal.

Alvin Owusu (07:42.338)
Hahaha

Alvin Owusu (07:46.654)
Hey, Brandon's top 40 right now. I know he had an up and down, up and down 2024, but he's...

Torrey Hawkins (08:06.622)
heck of a player. Make no mistake. 100 % is he a future top 20? Is he a future Alcarazzo center? I don't think so. Now I will say this, I will say this, you know, as I always say, I hate dishing and being negative on the top players. These guys are great. Let me give you just a brief and I gotta say this from my own perspective, because we're I gotta get off my chest. I'm talking to Dave Fish, the head coach of

Alvin Owusu (08:07.602)
Backhand is clean as Christmas too.

Alvin Owusu (08:16.796)
That's asking a lot.

Alvin Owusu (08:30.738)
Get it out, get it off your chest.

Torrey Hawkins (08:36.348)
Harvard years ago. He and illustrious, the famous Dave Fish, right? Dave Fish, many don't know, was the idea behind UTR, which we all now think of now as a standard. Dave Fish had a crazy idea. He thought, and I talked to Dave about this at length, he said, not every year's number one is a number one.

Alvin Owusu (08:37.192)
Yep. The illustrious head coach of Harvard. Illustrious.

Alvin Owusu (09:04.072)
That makes total sense.

Torrey Hawkins (09:05.192)
When he said that to me, I was like, that makes sense, Dave. He says, it doesn't mean they're not great players. It's not their fault that they came in that year. They're just not top. He says, I wouldn't even submit to you. The number three of certain years might be a better player than the number one of the next. I challenged some of our graduates, some of our people, and Dave was smarter than I don't know what. Coach at Harvard, you know, I'm a

pretty sure he went to a hard went to Harvard as well said those that are smarter than me, which anytime somebody defers like that, you know, they're pretty sharp. This he says, I put it to them the challenge to create a system that could judge their quality of play, their rating, not their ranking. He says the rankings themselves could be a little bit up and down. This is my point with the 20 under championships. Look at the UTRs. Look at what the stats say.

Alvin Owusu (09:39.686)
Hehehehe

Alvin Owusu (09:51.527)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (10:01.503)
to what those things are. And I will say that to you, Alvin, to say, this is, in my opinion, this is one of the problems with the Brandon Nakashima's, the Mickelson's, the Mark of Your Own's. They are in a great vacuum of being scooped up into playing the tournaments, getting in there. Hey, God bless them, they're doing a great job. And now the tough part is can they move the needle from top hundred to top 50s?

amoebas, right? Did you get one or two rounds more? Did you have that challenger points coming off? Did you have an ATP that the number one seed took the prize money and took the the appearance money and bounced and so on and so on as as unfortunate so many do. Now you've got to actually defend those points a year later. From as high level as a Tommy Paul and Ben Sheldon from 2023 when they had a great year to the Brandons and Alex's and Marcus's

this year that now have to defend that 50. That in itself is a feat. That in itself is a feat. So I say that to say the jury's out, the twin under championship, I would love to see. I would love to them have their own circuit and then give those players some points into the tour, especially from the countries that produce a lot of players, US, France, know, Spain, obviously all of Central America could be Italy. And Italy to me could be part of Southern Europe. You can call it your own Ryder Cup if you want to. I'm just saying that goes back to my tennis commissioner.

Alvin Owusu (11:19.932)
Italy. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (11:28.726)
idea, but that would give the up and comers a chance to play each other without running into the big dogs. And that is the whole new level of challenger to me. Now you got the 20 and under international championships and Alvin, but if there ain't a better situation there, I would show up there and be next to you sitting courtside taking videos and we've had this podcast courtside. That to me is something I look forward to. Will they, will that transition them automatic? No.

But it gives them great matches at a big stage, which is what most in my opinion, the men, the men need desperately. They need matches at that level. And you heard it right here. Even the women. I think the women needed as much. think the COVID year and Serena, I know it's a big, two big factors to understand. The COVID year put a handful of players at the top that maybe not had been there. They were not ready yet. And Serena, of course, with her three or four year retirement, you know, as it transitioned out.

And then we had a few that beat three in that kind of semi retired, right? With Naomi of the top of that heap. They, and the Varro types need that level of, hey, I am the next gen champ and I now earn this number of wild cards, this number of such and such. And that to me, I know I'm getting off topic, but if that champ then qualifies for, right, eight wild cards, boom. Now that's big. Four wild cards for the finalists.

three and three for the semis and so on and so on. Two for the quarters. Now you got something and now you're playing to get into that top deck. And I think, hey, you know, it may suck for that 37 year old or 39 or 39 year old or that player that's been in the top 100 for eight years but haven't done anything, maybe got third round eight years in a row. Hey, I'm sorry. At some point it's time for you to either put up shut up. It's time for this new next year to come in. But I think that should be the format. They should play for wild cards.

They should play for tournament entries and they should play for some notoriety, some sponsorships and what have you. And now we really get to see that new era kind of come in. And let's face it back to our whole year. You said three year peak. I call it a five year window. Now we get to see who can really be the real deal. I love that format. I know it's not answering your question specifically, but that's exactly where I think that tournament is headed. And they should have four to eight events of their own in a spurs throughout the year to give them their own quote unquote.

Torrey Hawkins (13:56.087)
Tour, futures tour, the golf doesn't golf call it a futures tour, right? I know other tours have it. They used to call it the futures tour. I know baseball is called AAA at the farm system and you got got D league and basketball, you know what mean? So there's all kinds of things. I'm just saying there's each sport has their own version of this. I think that could be tennis.

Alvin Owusu (13:56.69)
Hmm. Interesting.

don't know what golf calls it. Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (14:17.766)
Yeah, I mean my only pushback is, and we're gonna move off the topic, but my only pushback is that these players are already out competing on the actual tour and doing well enough. So the top four of them will be ranked inside of the, I think the three or four of them are ranked inside of the top 50.

Torrey Hawkins (14:31.704)
Sure. So kick out the top 25, right? Kick out the top 25. Let me tell you what brought me to this situation. I was doing research for this podcast tonight. I noticed a bunch of disparities between starting the career and when they first played their first pro event. Emma Navarro, for an example, right? She played at UVA. Emma's been playing pop tournaments since 2019. She went pro in 2022. She's been playing for a minute. So don't think this is her first

Alvin Owusu (14:50.472)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (15:01.496)
her first rodeo. Now, to my point, other players like Akoko, know, like Sloan, like Madison, went pro, right? We're almost putting, you know, it was weird putting out these names and these numbers. 2014, you know, 2009, 2008. I'm like, wow, they've been on tour a long time. Madison was 14 years old. She was 14 years old. We have almost kind of put her out to pasture. She's barely 30 something years old right now.

Alvin Owusu (15:02.565)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (15:29.428)
and I said had a problem one of her best years in last few years last year. I say it to say it's not Emma's fault that she did the system right went to college and everything. And it's not Madison's fault that she went pro at a tender age of 14 when you're legally able to do so. I say it to say, do you see my point about the transition? She's going to do three years on tour because there wasn't a tour like this back in the day. You get my point.

Alvin Owusu (15:44.445)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (15:53.884)
Yeah, it's a nice mix. I didn't mean to get us that far off course from today's actual topic, but these things are important. We're talking about what tennis could be compared to what it is, and format is important. How players actually get here is important. Understanding where they came from before the average fan sees them in the second round of the US Open. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (16:03.767)
Bye.

Torrey Hawkins (16:19.353)
100%. It ain't their first rodeo. That's all. that's the that's the one point before you move on. That's the one and to your point, the WTA needs it. The ATP definitely needs it. And I think it should almost have its own tour slash again, interspersed not we're not taking them completely out of the mix. They can they are free to play anything. And at some point of space, the girl top 25 top 50 even has and should play without the aid of extra help. We're only talking about the younger ones.

kids in college, juniors, right? They wanna test the waters. This is their, in a sense, know, their time to shine, call it their whatever. Anyway, to your point.

Alvin Owusu (16:55.134)
Yeah, it's really a conversation about like, what should the Challenger Tour be? Like that's, what should the Challenger Circuit actually be? And you you mentioned Emma and she's, I think she's a big part of our conversation today as we kind of move into the, know, taking a look at how our American women have done this year and what we'd like to see or what we expect to see from them in 2025. But like you said, Emma cut her teeth in college, right? Progressively got better. I think we talked about her, you know, maybe a couple episodes back as well.

Torrey Hawkins (17:11.928)
Bye.

Alvin Owusu (17:25.15)
with your experience with her and Juniors. But she also has, she's had this rise, it's been up and to the right for the last, I'd say 18 months, just progressively doing better and better, not just overall, especially at the slams. But interspersed, she's also still messing around and playing at 125 here and there, just to make sure she's still got the matches. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:46.733)
you

Torrey Hawkins (17:50.827)
matches, confidence, and quite frankly, momentum. I'll go back to a one Andre Agassi, who when he was coming back off some injuries, dropped back down and played a couple of challengers. Mind you, he didn't win every challenger he played. Dropped back down and then got back, uses a protective rake, and then got back inside the top. And hey, you heard it right here, had a great push off the side of the pool, doing a flip turn, and had a resurgence of his career.

Alvin Owusu (17:59.824)
Yeah!

Torrey Hawkins (18:18.363)
And really, in my opinion, help people understand how tough the challengers were. But you had to put in work to get any challengers. There's a couple players that walk around that had a couple of notches on the belt on Agassi and the challengers, right? Even though he was, of course, an eight-time Grand Slam champion and did his thing, we all know, we all had his shorts, we all had the blue and black checkerboard, and the denim shorts and the highlighter thing underneath. Trust me, there's no question Agassi was as good as he was.

Alvin Owusu (18:30.106)
Right, right.

Alvin Owusu (18:39.006)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (18:46.971)
But if a player like Agassi at his caliber will drop back down and get some matches and momentum, what do the rest of us need? I would submit that we need an entire tour dedicated to some of these tournaments. To your point, the challenges are there. College players take advantage of it. Heck, some college schools take advantage of it and host one, right? So you're a huge tool. So don't even start on that and don't take that away. I'm just saying wrap it around.

Alvin Owusu (19:08.254)
yeah, it's a huge recruiting tool right now.

Torrey Hawkins (19:16.306)
bow in it and let's be able to make that a tour in and of itself. Future tour, nationwide tour, whatever you want to call it and let that be its own deal where they're still able. We're not limiting what they can play. We're saying this is only open to you young players and give yourself a chance to go out there and play and see what it's like at the big time. That's my point. Damon Navarro, what do you got? I know you. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (19:34.974)
Okay, Emma Navarro, well, let's take a step back and kind of look at this from a 30,000, I always can't remember, it's 30,000 or 3,000, it's gotta be 30,000 foot view, right? So right now, on the women's side, right, exactly.

Torrey Hawkins (19:47.342)
Yup, yup, yup, 50,000 if you're on the right plane. My dad worked for Boeing for 30 years, so I get 40,000 and 50,000. I understand aeronautical stuff a little better than most, but go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (19:55.495)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (19:59.962)
Okay, there you go, that makes a lot of sense now. So, you right now on the women's side, we've got three women who finished the year in the top 10, Coco, four, JPEG, seven, Emma, eight, right? Danielle right outside at 11, and then you got Madison, you know, right around 21. And Madison, this is crazy in that she's like, she's not even 30 yet, she's 29 years old. Like, that's wild, that's wild.

Torrey Hawkins (20:07.652)
Yup. Yup.

Torrey Hawkins (20:16.046)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (20:23.96)
Yep. Yeah, that was what I was getting at.

Alvin Owusu (20:27.442)
But before we got started, right, when we came in all hot and everything, the question was, do we think that this group of women can produce grand slams? I'll even add, consistently. So, looking at next year, right, let's take a step back. Coco, know, the last two years have been, she's been great.

She's been our more or less our best American player for the last two years, right? Obviously won the US Open a couple years ago, semi-final here in Australia, semi-final at Roland Garros, right? Won the WTA finals, finished up the year quite strong.

What does that mean? How do you view her moving forward? I think maybe we spoke, I can't remember if was the last episode or the one before, but I feel like her floor is so high right now that she can't help but to produce grand slams from here on out.

Torrey Hawkins (21:37.693)
I think we both agree on her future is bright. We may disagree on grand slams added to her belt. I will put it back on you. How many do you think, if at all, do you think in the next two years that she is likely to achieve?

Alvin Owusu (21:55.741)
Next two years.

Alvin Owusu (22:00.267)
Yeah, I mean, I think I got down to, maybe when we talked about this a couple, a little while back, that it was, I feel like she's good for one out of six, one out of the next six. So if you got eight in the next two years, it could, it's at least one, it could be two, right? Depending on which side of that six she falls on.

Torrey Hawkins (22:16.538)
What surface, which one, and is there another player, i.e. Stapelanka, i.e. Swiatek, i.e., right, there were the other top four players in the world that can knock her off and have a better chance on that surface. Let's say you.

Alvin Owusu (22:33.707)
Sure, I think you can kind of look at the Australian Open and the US Open similarly because of their relative surface consistency, I think she's got a fighter's chance and that one's gonna take, know, draws breaking a little bit in her favor, right? So I'll play those at like whatever, I'm not a gambling man, but whatever neutral odds would be, I'm gonna say neutral odds. say Wimbledon, she has the worst chance because she does not perform well when sped up.

Right, so I think, you know, she has a pretty, she's got a, it's only four and four, five and five, it's a 500 record against Sabalinka, who I think should be the walking favorite at US Open until someone proves me otherwise. But I think that surface in particular, well, it's not good for her. She needs more time than that. So I will counter that by saying I think if Ega slips, French Open is there for Coco to take. Like, it's right there. It's right there. It's right there.

Torrey Hawkins (23:03.933)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (23:32.67)
In a previous episode, you mentioned athletes. You told me that the wimby is for athletes, the flatter ball. I'm going to put it back on you. Do you think she's either not athletic enough or is her ball not flat enough? Is her penetration not big enough? Is her serve, which I still feel is the X factor in the whole conversation, not big enough to hold, to not break down in a two week stretch.

Alvin Owusu (23:32.925)
She she's finaled. She's semi. She's she's quartered. She. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:02.367)
and to give her the freebies that she needs. I think she got the best backhand return on women's tennis. Even better than Egas and even not a solid overall, better backhand return. Period of the story. Better backhand than Irina. I would submit to you that that's still the X factor. I get you on one and six. I would even up Annie to say one and four. I would just take down her chances to be closer to a 20, not a 25 % because she needs help. You said it. I feel it.

She just needs help at this stage in her career. She still doesn't own the serve. She cannot dial it in period. that's, and that's, and that's a coach's, that's a coach's take. That's not a fan. That's I have seen that serve break down. Ironically, whatever she was doing, Brad Gilbert a year ago, she should go back to Brad videotape that lesson three or four times and just put it on AI and make have journalists create her.

simulator and go through that serve progression and do some old school Eon Terriak on Boris Becker and put the black curtain over the net and hit targets until she could hit him without seeing him. That's an old tip by the way. Old Eon Terriak was crazy. But that was Eon Terriak with Becker made him hit targets by feel not by sight. He said if you can hit it, you can hit it. You know what it feels like. Put a big black

Alvin Owusu (25:16.628)
I'm writing that one down. I'm writing that one down.

Torrey Hawkins (25:30.888)
curtain bed sheet over the net and we'll put targets up. Boris had to hit it until he could hit it. Didn't need, couldn't even tell how far away it was. It's at the tee. Figure it out. And buddy, you look at one of the best servers in that day at old. Now you get what I'm saying. That's old school. And then I, you know, I am 100 % old school. That's the level she has to be able to, to perform at, to dial it in. We know her returns are good. We know the back end's money.

Alvin Owusu (25:44.821)
Yeah? Yeah?

Torrey Hawkins (25:59.838)
Even on an off chance, the foreign's a little sus that week. No problem. If she can hold serve Alvin, she'll be fine. If she can't, she's a liability. Best weapon in the girls' game. What is it? Return to serve. What is the biggest liability? Serve. So to my point, go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (26:07.167)
I think, yeah, I think.

Return to surf. Yeah.

How you to serve? Yeah, I say you even crank that up on grass, right? You tell me someone's serve is a little suspect, I say okay, well then you're not getting enough free points and you're gonna need those on grass, right? I also believe that it's her in between, like she's rock solid at the net, right? Once she gets there, she can take care of some things, but we've talked about this before how...

Torrey Hawkins (26:31.592)
have to.

Alvin Owusu (26:41.919)
things get a little wonky on grass. You need a certain level of dexterity, a certain level of hand skills to handle the in-between stuff. I just don't think she has that part of her game to make up for the lack of ability to dictate with the forehand from the back of the court, right? And that's why I feel like, mean, Emma ate her up like it was breakfast at Tiffany's at Wimbledon last year.

Torrey Hawkins (26:44.936)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (26:57.692)
Yeah. See you in the end.

Torrey Hawkins (27:07.111)
I feel Emma's a smarter player. I hate the term. I hate the comparison, especially the black and white thing. Emma is a tactician. She understands matchups. Coco is an athlete hitting a big ball. She's a counterpunisher who rock, paper, scissors. She understands her speed, likes being on the move. If you were to play to Coco's forehand.

Alvin Owusu (27:11.691)
oooo

Torrey Hawkins (27:34.016)
And whenever Coco tries to change direction and you go back to the forehand instead of going to her backhand, I feel, and that's the body bag that Emma Navarro put her in. She says, I'm going to make you beat me on the forehand side. I'm going to serve to it. I'm going to roll to it. I'm going to slice to it. I'm going to bang to it. I'm going to drop shot to it. I'm never giving you the shot you want. You know what ended up happening? She over hit backhands. She did not change well on the backhand side. Emma's not slow. And she ended up over playing on the side she's good at.

Alvin Owusu (27:55.54)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (28:02.547)
and got so mental in her head that she didn't realize, and let me tell you something, this goes back to my eight, my twin under tour, because she's now the champ, last year she's defending, which is holding another talk show. She was not prepared to be in a battle where she thinks she's supposed to be better than the upstart. All of the stuff in her head, you're good, you're gonna have go pro, you need to go to college, you're so good. That stuff is poison.

for the young players. This girl is as good as you, period of the story. On a given day better, you gotta get your game right. We chose to have you go pro for marketing, money and endorsement opportunities. But this girl is as good. Her dad's a billionaire. She had the choice to go pro later. She had the choice to go to Virginia on her own. Her dad bought a club and a team around her, right? That's the discussion. And I hate this whole.

I saw because I went through it with one of our players. There's this whole you're good enough to do this. No, no, you're you you're capable, but you're not yet at that level. You ain't played enough tennis. You ain't played enough tennis at that level to be that good. And now you got to deal with what you don't know. Cocoa golf, you're the right here. In my opinion, Cocoa will win four more slams. When I think they will be maybe one this year, maybe two over the next two years. I think when she really settles in and gets a hold of Cocoa.

He will be that Boris Becker type. I think within the next three or four years, think I could see Coco winning two in a year. If she really hits stride and really gets her mind right, settles in, gets mature. She reminds me of Chanda Rubin. She's a Chanda Rubin with Venus Williams speed. Chanda Rubin, as you remember, Chanda Rubin was a phenomenal player. Never really got the credit she deserved, in my opinion. Chanda had great skills, Alvin, and never really got the shot, in my opinion, the credit she was deserved. But she had a great backhand. She had a big forehand, had a nice serve, had nice returns.

didn't play the big ones enough to even know. Took her a year or two just to get good at the slams because she never played on grass, clay, and the others. Why did she sponsor? Remember the old Simmons ITF circuit? She helped sponsor those because she didn't get any ITFs. So she got a girl who played juniors only that went pro, had nothing in between. And hats off to her for sponsoring that whole level. She did it because she didn't have it. I say that to say, that's Coco to me. I think she's got five left in the tank.

Alvin Owusu (30:07.284)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (30:12.363)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (30:29.628)
Minimum five, but I think she needs to really dial in that serve get that forehand better and really stop looking at the tour like I'm supposed to be Right and look at it more like I have a lot to learn. I just happened to win one last year I'm so happy I did I rose to the moment but now I got to get to the business of being good I look at it like a top doctor out of med school who performs his first open heart surgery nice job Now you're a surgeon

And now people are wanting you to do that regularly. It can't be luck. The situation may go sideways. What are you going to do? And how do you get to be the head of the department? You've seen enough go sideways. And now you know, you really know. Right? And I know it's a weird analogy, but that's what Coco has to get to. Go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (31:13.812)
Yeah, and I-

No, I think it's a good analogy, because if you look at that same surgeon who does their first open heart surgery, let's say it's one that went sideways and they still were able to save the patient and they come out and they're sweating and everyone's patting them on the back, right? But that's not necessarily what makes a great surgeon, right? A great surgeon is made by consistency. Like can you do, can you do,

Torrey Hawkins (31:31.774)
Bye.

Torrey Hawkins (31:36.607)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (31:43.21)
Thank you. And preparation. And you've seen enough. What's my old commercial state farm bureau? We know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. That to me is where Coco has to get to. And this talk, like she's so good. She's Grand Slam champ. It's hers to defend. That kind of talk to me isn't well served.

Alvin Owusu (31:52.094)
Right, and I, I...

Alvin Owusu (32:01.363)
Yeah, I think the Grand Slam champion, I think the Grand Slam champion part of it is it's probably a little overvalued, right? Because, mean, obviously we're, we in the States, in the world, we value championships, right? We value champions and we have four Slam champions a year, right? But I think your ability to win a, let's take, let's look at this way. Cocoa Golf has the same amount of Grand Slam championships as Imran Khanu. She has the same amount of slams as

Torrey Hawkins (32:28.437)
Bye!

Alvin Owusu (32:30.507)
Sloan Stephens. She has the same amount of slams as Bianca Andreescu, right? But the difference between Coco and the rest of these women is that she also knows how to win a 500. She also knows how to win a 1000. She's going to be there every, she's going to be, well, yeah, I think that's even more impressive, right? She'll be there week in and week out, right? Even if she has a bad tournament, a bad tournament for her is quarterfinals at a Masters 1000, right? She's not going to, she's not going to tank out and lose the first round. She's going lose the first round. She's always there.

Torrey Hawkins (32:30.784)
Slow statements.

Thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (32:43.888)
And she's younger. Yeah.

Right? Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (32:54.73)
I'm Sam.

100%.

Alvin Owusu (33:00.117)
And that's why I say like, she is 20, but where we are in women's tennis right now with the parity post Serena, right? I think she's, you know, she's a lot younger than, not that much younger than Ega, but she's definitely younger than Irina. I feel like she's right there to start stealing one a year, but then also making a push for, you know, top three, top two in the world, maybe even, maybe even

maybe even number one in the world because of her consistency. And I think that's extremely valuable. think that's the job. The job is to be consistent.

Torrey Hawkins (33:32.51)
But I think it's valuable. That's thank you. I wish I gave her more of one to four than one in six to your point. Let's. I think it matters in terms of the later the later in of her career as a balloon, so to speak, I think she'll be better because that experience because she'll have those quote unquote surgeries under her belt.

Alvin Owusu (33:44.171)
I don't think it matters. I think matters, right? think her can, for this conversation, yes.

Torrey Hawkins (33:59.872)
Let me take you back and I want to get to the Gula and get some other players. Let me rattle off the 17 names that are in the top 100 currently at the of 2024. golf, Pagula, Navarro, Collins, Keyes, Anisimova, Stearns, Volleynets, Kruger, Kessler, Townsend, Para, Stevens, Doleheide, Keenan, Baptiste and Lee. Now,

Alvin Owusu (34:08.137)
Yeah, give it to me.

Alvin Owusu (34:12.979)
All top 10. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (34:29.748)
Several of those shots out to my girl Taylor shots out to Katie Volley nets and Manny Smova. When I ran the girls 12 nationals and right here in Alpharetta, they they played my tournament as did Coco as did a few others on this on this list. I loved them when they were playing. They they were good good young players back then. I knew they were going to pretty good at that time. They are now inside ancient inside that top 50.

The one player, ironically, who's won a grand slam at 63, give or take, year end, is Sloan. Do I think Katie Volleynets will get to win a slam? I'm not so sure. Do I think that Amanda Nisamova? I think she may have had her three year peak, so to speak, and maybe on the downside of it. When she came out, she was unbelievable. Stearns, think, Stearns is playing some really good ball right now. We'll see, right? We'll see, we'll see what she can do.

Alvin Owusu (35:21.387)
I love watching her play. I love the idea of Payton Stearns.

Torrey Hawkins (35:24.707)
Right? Right? But Peyton may not maim it. still just hitting big fours and running around and having fun out there, right? Which is what I love, right? But I go back to other, Taylor's had a resurgence, had a big win there in the Grand Slam. Was it French that she won with doubles this year? You know, just love what she's doing. Which slam did she win in doubles this year? I thought it was French. Pretty sure it was French.

Alvin Owusu (35:31.465)
Yeah!

Alvin Owusu (35:45.307)
I can't remember. might have been, I mean, it's either France or Wimbledon. It was one of the summer slams. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (35:52.677)
Right. I was pretty sure it was, it was, it was fresh bottom line, huge win for her. I've been watching Taylor since she was, I don't know, she was probably 12, 12 years old. I look at the rest of them, right? Krueger, Keys, Kessler. Keys had a huge resurgence this year. just, Collins retired this year, by the way, there's a whole nother talk show, right? So now you're starting to see that level, that era and unretired, but, but, but she's back. But to my point, to my point, Collins, Sloan.

Alvin Owusu (36:13.063)
And unretired. And unretired. Retired and unretired. Yeah, she's back. But whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (36:22.278)
Madison, we just got married, if I'm not mistaken. All of those players are, in my opinion, they're approaching that 30 year mark. And at that point, hey, maybe wanting to be a mom, maybe wanting to stop a step left, maybe, you know, maybe just wanting to move on to the next phase of life. Hey, and who can blame them? I'm just saying, so that 17 gets shaved down closer to about 14 or 13 in terms of who's not, for those that are not approaching 30 years old. Now, unfortunately,

Alvin Owusu (36:24.564)
Yeah!

Torrey Hawkins (36:52.666)
You're taking away a Grand Slam finalist, Grand Slam winner with him, you know, and the only other Grand Slam finalist left is Jess Pagula, right? Now, not to mention obviously Coco. Now, moving on to Jess Pagula. My personal favorite, I think Jess has the goods of what it takes and all she needs, all she needs, in my opinion, is to stay healthy. I think Australia is a good big experiment for her. I think her balls big enough.

where French, I don't like her chants in the French. She's just, I know she's had some decent wins here and there, but she's just not as athletic as I'd like to see her be. She's just not, and she didn't grow up on the clay, on the grass. I think she has a better shot if she can smack the ball big enough. She's got some great results on grass. The US Open, I'd rather be hard courts or jam. And I submit to you, I think, now the Guadalumne here, just out of love and loyalty.

Alvin Owusu (37:29.225)
Yeah, she's not a good enough mover to really be a threat there.

Alvin Owusu (37:35.763)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (37:46.63)
I think Jess Pagula has a shot to win the US Open next year. And I think if that happens, that's her swan song and she does her thing. She's the next player, maybe even another Coco and Jess Pagula matchup, which is on, that's, would be, that would be great to see. But I think that would be a great tournament to see her in that, in that arena. She's also pushing up closer to 30. She's also getting in that range where she, think she's 20, 29. She's also at that level where she's got to start thinking about.

Will she or will she not be around in the next two or three years? And now the rest of them are all younger, right? And then of course you got Navarro, you've got Amanda, you've got Stearns. And in that conversation, I think we start really kind of having a who's coming down, who's on the way up, right? know, Peyton, Emma, you know, are kind of moving up. Maybe Amanda, maybe maybe coming down a notch. You know, of course, you know, and Danielle had a good year, get me wrong. Danielle had a great year. Katie Bollinghats is kind of hanging.

You know, do we, you know, do I think that Taylor is a, is a, is a shot to get inside, to break inside the top 10 this year? I do not. You know, do I think she's going to be top 10 in doubles this year? Again, 1000%. And you better, you better get, you better get your tournaments in with Taylor now because she's going to booked up. Do I think she's going to have that same year in singles? I'm not so sure. But the rest of them, again, as I say, Keenan.

I think kingdom was her best years in my opinion are behind her a little bit. That three year peak is over now. You know what mean? Haley Baptiste great player. She played my tournament back in the day as well. Good player. Do I think she's kind of one of those players kind of has a nice career high being top 100? I do. Do I think she's a heck of a talent? I do. Do I think she's a threat to be top 50 or top 30? I do not. I don't know if her game is quite that developed. I don't know if her mindset is ready to really, really grind to be professional on the tour at that level. But to my point in that order.

I think, I think JPEG is one of the biggest players who I think doesn't get enough credit for all she's done, especially with some limited athleticism here and there. She's one of the best players that has a shot to still win one. And you look at her record against some of the Russians. You look at her record against EGAA. You look at her record. She's right there toe to toe going against Arena. And of course she's been the elder statesman to Coco and, and, and, and a match that Coco doesn't want to play. Let's be honest.

Alvin Owusu (40:07.059)
Yeah, mean, here's my, this is where I am less sold on JPEG than most, well, not than most, I'm less sold than you are, right? I, you know, she finals the US Open this year. Let's give props where we should be, yeah, she did, she did, but also let this sink in.

Torrey Hawkins (40:24.414)
And let that sink in for a minute. Let that sink in. At a ripe old age with every other player in the draw. And if I'm not mistaken, beat Eega in round.

Alvin Owusu (40:34.411)
She did. She didn't do anything else the rest of the year. She was a little banged up this year, fine, fine. But if you just look at the numbers, hey, fine. She's also 30. So let's call a spade a spade, right? She finished the year ranked three in 2022, five in 2023, seven in 2024. She was 28, 29, 30 years old. mean, it's at the...

Torrey Hawkins (40:38.707)
Thank you. Coming off of a knee surgery or two, coming off a few injuries, grind it. Not, not, not,

Wow. 100%.

Alvin Owusu (41:02.697)
The as they say the math ain't math and my man, when I see a trend.

Torrey Hawkins (41:05.535)
The math ain't mathin' and I'm gonna tell you right now all the one reason why I think this is her year. I also feel, let's not talk about being her dad, she don't need to play in the first place. The fact that she's playing is already there. I think this will be her last year to give it the old college try and I think that's why I give her more credit this year to really double down on everything she's been doing and between body injuries and everything else, I think she wants one more year to prove

You all said I couldn't do it. I got something for you.

Alvin Owusu (41:38.621)
See, think what you're describing is what actually happened at the US Open. Yeah, I think that's what happened. was the you all said I couldn't get past, you all said I couldn't do it, which was the do it here was get past the quarterfinals of a Grand Slam. She was like and eight or something like that. So she did it and she beat Ega and then she won another round and then she made it to the.

Torrey Hawkins (41:43.11)
is this past year. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Torrey Hawkins (41:53.641)
Right?

Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (41:59.86)
Beat Ega Handley, by the way.

Alvin Owusu (42:02.876)
Made it to the finals. She didn't win it, but she did it. She got there. She's a New York girl. The whole promo of her riding the subway from Manhattan out to the US, it was great. Everything but the W at the end. It doesn't matter. I think that was it. I think that was it.

Torrey Hawkins (42:04.414)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (42:11.848)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (42:16.979)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

We will agree to disagree and I love it. Jess, if you're watching, I love it. I love you. I think you got a shot. I will be right there. I will have the phone in hand taking a picture of you with the trophy and we will plaster it all over Alvin's back wall.

Alvin Owusu (42:24.986)
Because the other...

Alvin Owusu (42:36.636)
coach, you're compromised. Coach, you're compromised. I'll put the picture right there, right there, right next to my Emmy. That's an Emmy right there, so I'll put it right there with her. all right, so I think the other side of the coin is probably Emma Navarro, right? So Emma, she's taken, she almost took the methodical route and also almost came out of nowhere, right? So like.

Torrey Hawkins (42:48.052)
Ha ha ha ha!

Torrey Hawkins (42:53.534)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (43:05.528)
It hits the top last year and then hits the ground running this year, right? Third round Australia, round of 16 at Roland Garros, quarterfinal semi, semi-final U.S. Open, fifth slam, she's in the final somehow. Give her sixth slam, she's got one now. I think that is, I think Emma's the one that kind of usurps JPEG.

Torrey Hawkins (43:21.118)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (43:33.668)
and gets herself in the top five for the same reason, the exact same reason that I mentioned about Coco a little bit ago, right? Is that she can do it consistently and this is a job.

Torrey Hawkins (43:40.404)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (43:46.48)
and has proved it. I will give you one. You have, and I have both heard of the sophomore slump. What caused this? What caused this? What caused this a sophomore slump? It's a two part, a two prong hook one, three prong, one, your own expectation. You it's too high. You've in a sense gone better than you thought. We talked about Ben Sheldon with this.

Alvin Owusu (43:55.642)
Absolutely. I almost expect it.

Torrey Hawkins (44:16.33)
of last year on a previous episode. Number two, the players now know you. They didn't know much before, came out of nowhere, right? That's also a problem. Now they know you, now they know how to play you, right? And number three, we mentioned this before with the young Americans, right? Points to defend, the schedule. Now she has the tournament, the things to defend. It's tough. Each tournament becomes that much harder to defend.

Alvin Owusu (44:34.63)
Sure. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (44:42.524)
You saw Taylor get to the quarter of Wimby against Nadal and the next year darn near unheard from. Took him another year to get back into the spot. A little better by the way this past year than he was before or two years ago. But why? Because he had to overcome this offer some. Ben Shelton this past year, right? And so on and so on. I will submit to you that Emma may run into that this next year. That's why I'm not thinking she will have the huge results.

next year and again no huge weapons it's just not like she has a huge game that can just absolutely run blitzkrieg on somebody to get into the semi on her own merit right i don't know you know i look

Alvin Owusu (45:17.254)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (45:22.652)
But that's the opposite side of that coin of no huge weapons is she did this with no huge weapons. I think her game is built for, when she's now found that she's like, have the top 10 level, I feel like her game travels well. I think if she thinks she can do it on every surface, Because she's not, for the same reason why she probably won't win a slam, it's the same reason why she's gonna be there.

Torrey Hawkins (45:41.034)
on every surface and against every player. 1000 % agree with you.

Torrey Hawkins (45:49.236)
Thank you. Thank you. She is the better Simona Halep. She is the better, if you will, craftier Martina Hingis. She is the better, you know, to your point, Bianca Andreuscu. She is that player. She has everything. And yet she has no true weapon. She's not as consistent as Iga. She's not as powerful as Irina. She's not as fast as Coco. So for that reason, I feel like I'm talking like I'm in Shark Tank. And for that reason, I'm out.

Alvin Owusu (45:51.908)
all the time.

Alvin Owusu (46:17.348)
Eh.

Torrey Hawkins (46:17.514)
You know, and for that reason, I don't think she has the goods to go deep in a slam. Like I said before about Tommy Paul and about Ben and Francis, they're going to run into one of those four. Right. And I don't like her chances. I don't like her chances against arena. I don't like her chance against ego. So therefore, if one of those two are there and they're going to be there, what's the chance of her now? Will she be a player to reckon with for the next five to 10 years? 1000%. And with her billionaire dad, she'll be the next JPEG to your point.

I will love watching it. Do I think she's got a slam in her in the next five years? 1000%. And it'll be like a French or it'll be an Aussie. You you heard it right here. I'm not ruling her out this year because people still don't know how to play her just yet. You know what mean?

Alvin Owusu (47:00.57)
Right, that's the thing. You said the word is out on her game. I was like, well, what's the word? Like, step up and try to hit her off the court? Like, can you?

Torrey Hawkins (47:07.21)
No, not the word. Not the word. Not the word. I think the blood in the water and the blood in the water is a player's mortality, their own belief that they can't lose. Before, you remember that crazy tournament where Carlos lost second round to sub nobody. You know, I forget what was it. Was it US last year? What was the tournament? it?

Alvin Owusu (47:30.894)
yeah, he lost to Botic Vendors on Shloop in the second or third round of the US Open this year. Yeah, couple months ago.

Torrey Hawkins (47:37.155)
Well, this past year, right? That was one of those weird tournaments. You're like, huh, isn't that, isn't that something? And you were just kind of like, now it didn't do a lot to, it was, it was a, it was a graze. wasn't a, it wasn't a mortal wound, but it was one of those where you're like, can have a bad day. And when those days start to happen, you start telling yourself, you know what? This player, they, they can go down on the right day. And everybody in the locker room starts to say,

You know what? I beat them. They beat you. Go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (48:09.148)
As an aside, feel like that's one of the interesting things about Carlos. His ceiling is higher than anyone else's on tour right now. His ceiling is higher than anyone else's. Right. my God, he will just... know, Vanderzanslip is one of those players, he's almost...

Torrey Hawkins (48:18.831)
And his trough, he can be beaten by Vander Sloot. Right?

Alvin Owusu (48:32.784)
Taylor made to give Carlos problems. Because Carlos has an issue with tall players. Like Carlos is not that big, he's like six foot. And so when he plays against these guys who are six four and up, when the, on these Grand Slam courts that are so big, right? It just gets into one of these like, he can't really use the angles. He's in these long vertical rallies.

Torrey Hawkins (48:38.061)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (48:48.281)
Right?

Right?

And you don't get the ground stroke rallies. You don't get the ground stroke rally and the tempo to drop. You can't drop shot in the second ball, right? So you're in these moments where, I mean, you're not drop shotting off 140 plus third. So you put GMP in his draw. If I'm a gambling man, if I'm a gambling man on the right surface, Wimbledon, that might actually go in five sets. You know what I mean? And it's just one of those things.

Alvin Owusu (49:12.25)
Yeah, that's a- that- yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (49:24.397)
Better for GMP if it goes to your four.

Alvin Owusu (49:27.14)
Right, yeah, and well, here's oddly enough, oddly enough, Carlos has never lost a five set match.

Torrey Hawkins (49:31.857)
But to my point, that's why I changed my point. Four sets or three, I give it to GMP just because he has the ability to play hot for that long. Longer goes the worst it is for any big server because your legs are going. My point being, that's where I'm getting that. We'll shift back to the ladies. I'm getting at one thing with J, with Emma Navarro. I think her future is bright. I think she will continue to get better. She will benefit the most from this. Again, I'm going to coin the term post-goat era.

Alvin Owusu (49:34.532)
Right, there you

Torrey Hawkins (49:59.375)
because now there are players that are shifting out. She's shifting in Emma Navarro five years ago, right? Emma Navarro five years ago would have been a very good player, but not that good. She would have been a, had a good round or two against a Kovitova. She would have had a good round or two. I had a nice reset battle with Azarenka. know, Emma Navarro, I'm trying to think of who I think she, and I say three, four years ago, I'm going to say.

seven years ago, because you got to take that COVID get out of there completely. You look at, I'm trying to give you a counterpart of her seven years ago. And I think the player I'm thinking of, she is she is a, Andre Esquire in my opinion. She's had, she just has that level of all parts to her game. No flaws. She's right there. And if the draw breaks, she's there. I don't know if she is a, a top seed, a threat to win each one.

She's certainly not a, think Sabalinka is the, she's the Ivan Durago, right? So to speak of women's tennis compared to Coke, compared to Serena. She's the bigger, better, not faster, bigger, better, stronger, taller version, hits a cleaner. Only thing she doesn't have is Serena's intangibles and Serena's athleticism. look at Ega, Ega is, is, is, is.

Ega is one part Stephie Graf and one part Martina Hingis. She just has the craftiness, the steadiness, knows what she's doing and just will not and mentally is so dialed in. You're going to have to actually catch one bad day and play your butt off to win that kind of match. And the more you start putting these level of players in the top four, doesn't that Coco is the hybrid of Venus and Serena. Let's be honest.

Venus, there wasn't a better player. There wasn't a better athlete, better mover. And Venus is about 6'2", 6'3". People who have met her in person, you'll be shocked at how tall Venus actually is. She is legit all day 6'2", possibly 6'3". The girl is tall. The girl is tall, man. I mean, I Lisa Leslie in person in front of the players. Venus Williams is tall. I'm 6'6", Alvin. And when I talked to Venus, I felt like I was looking at her eye to eye. The girl is tall.

Alvin Owusu (51:51.654)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (52:05.36)
Yeah, I was thinking 6-3, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (52:17.722)
You know, I ran into Coco, as it wasn't this summer, it was last summer, right? So in my day job, my office is right across the street from Georgia Tech. She had played in the exhibition match at the beginning of the Atlanta Open, but she was, look out the window and I see this black girl hitting at Georgia Tech during the ATP tournament. And I'm just like, let walk down there. Who could that be? Coco Gough. I was shocked at how tall she was.

Torrey Hawkins (52:30.981)
Sure, and land open, Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (52:47.599)
Yeah, that's all you think.

Alvin Owusu (52:47.706)
She's probably a good 6'3". Like, that is a professional athlete. Like, athlete with a capital A.

Torrey Hawkins (52:55.187)
Yeah. Yeah. And I say that to say, now you've got that level. If you had to round out the top four, okay, you had to round out that top four. Who's that fourth player? Now that's where your question starts to become a little bit. As I said, same with Taylor Fritz on the men's side. You start getting that. That's where the question marks start coming in. Is it, you know, is it, you know, for Taylor, for the men, is that player, you know, is that player, you know, is it JPEG, right? Is that player?

know who who's who's who's my lefty with the tattoos avondro sova or whatever name is avondro sova is it the who's the other young lady that just came out of nowhere this past year i know she's one of your favorites young girl she looks like she's about seventeen

Alvin Owusu (53:29.328)
Vondra silver. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (53:43.268)
I call it crack over what you you you

Alvin Owusu (53:45.356)
Barbara Krachikova.

Torrey Hawkins (53:47.888)
Yeah, right. Is it her right? Is it is you know, it may not be muhova right? You know, it may not be you know, on Jabburah Jabburah thing has kind of has kind of stopped her toe a little bit. But you got a lot of players in there that can still get it done. And now that makes it that much tougher for okay, I'm gonna get back to your list. That makes it that much tougher for your keys, Anissa Mova, Peyton Stearns, Katie Volinets, Kruger Kessler, you know, Taylor Sloan and

you know, Catherine Dole, and and and Haley Baptiste and Sophia Kennedy. So that's where we are. Right. And I think that's where I'm saying you got to look at these at that 17. That's a bit of a, you know, it's like it's, you know, it's like when I put the meat thermometer in my steak, where am I putting the thermometer at? That's my temperature. You know, if I put it on the edge, it might be looking like it's ready to go. If I put it toward the middle, it might still not be done yet. That's where I'm at.

Alvin Owusu (54:44.847)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (54:46.77)
I think this list is about in my opinion about five players extra, you know, five degrees if you will extra on the heat more than it should be. Not these not these players aren't good. But this is again coming off some COVID era coming off wins from awesome some matches that they may or may not be quite there yet. But you know, in my opinion, I think you got three or four players in that list that are over 30 or right at 30 you got about four or five players that are coming down off their peak.

not necessarily ascending back to the top, which is very, you know, I'm gonna say, what's the word, what's the term, which is very standard, you know, for the women's game, you know, they have a very, and so for that reason, a smaller shelf life. And I think that's part of what the deal is. And many of these girls come from money. They ain't got to play, you know, they don't want to. The hunger is optional. You know, it's not mandatory.

Alvin Owusu (55:35.548)
Yeah, yeah, know, when I look at the, you know, kind of the rankings at this point and you start looking at, okay, a lot of them, once you get outside of the top 20, right, you have to start looking at where do they finish the year versus how old they actually are. Because that gives you an idea, like if you're 26 and you're 70 in the world, like I'm sorry, this is not a conversation we need to be having, right? That doesn't make any kind of sense as far as like,

That does not equal Grand Slam champion save for Jessica Pagula, right? Who I think she's very unique in that. Right, yeah, that's not a real.

Torrey Hawkins (56:07.57)
Thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (56:12.885)
might be the only one, dare I say. that's not, and that's, a close second and third is Madison and Sloan who could still dial up that level of tennis on a given day. Andres.

Alvin Owusu (56:25.148)
So that's the thing, I feel like Madison could pull a age 31, 32, mess around and win the US Open because she's got the weapons to do it.

Torrey Hawkins (56:29.684)
100%. 100%. 100%. She's got the weapons, the height, the strength, the court coverage, and maybe still has a little bit of, I'm gonna show you, left in the tank for her. And I think Sloan has the same. If anything, the only thing I from Sloan is, I should have won one, a second one by now, right? And I think the hunger of not winning one is what's gonna fuel Madison more than it's gonna help Sloan win a second one.

Alvin Owusu (56:40.814)
Right. I feel like she, yeah, she needs one. She deserves one.

Alvin Owusu (56:56.888)
I don't think Sloan, no, no, no, no, I'm gonna call you on that one. I don't see it for Sloan, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, says this guy.

Torrey Hawkins (57:01.513)
Okay.

The only reason you haven't seen it. The only reason you haven't seen it is Sloan needs to get pissed off in shape and motivated to prove to herself that she wants another one bad enough. And I think. Does she have the athleticism and game 1000 % does she have the hunger and drive to still do it? That's what I'm not so sure about. Madison keys. Right. Madison keys. I feel what's driving her.

Alvin Owusu (57:27.59)
Yeah, I will.

Torrey Hawkins (57:33.59)
is that loss in 17 too slow knowing what she can do. Or was it not? Because she was in the match, she was controlling the match. And that's what still keeps her up at night. And you know, like I know, I more tennis players. A match like that keeps you up at night. That's what gets you up in the morning, practicing hitting balls. And you start developing this hunger of I deserve it because I want it more than you. And when you start really dialing that back in and really supercharging and turbocharging that belief and bringing that

Alvin Owusu (57:35.92)
Yeah, God, that was a heartbreaker.

Alvin Owusu (57:50.299)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (58:03.537)
exhaust back in and wrapping it back around the engine, it starts to have compound interest, right? And then you start realizing, you know what, momentum starts to happen about two to three weeks at the pro level. Or I would say at the high level tournaments, thousand and ATPs, WTAs, it starts to happen about two months after. And now you start seeing momentum kick in. So who's worked up to this point to get to Australia and have a big year? That's what we're going to find out.

Alvin Owusu (58:30.908)
So before we wrap, there is the one player that I do feel like I saw some things from her this year and she has all the markers that make you go, huh. Huh. And that's Ashlyn Kruger, actually. I know she's sitting right there, I think she finished here at like 60 something or other, but she's 20 years old, Tall.

Torrey Hawkins (58:48.501)
Okay? Okay?

Torrey Hawkins (58:58.207)
Yep. Kind of mind you. Kind of mind you of Jen Brady. Yeah. Kind of mind you of a Jen Brady and a...

Alvin Owusu (58:59.036)
plays big. She plays like she's from Texas.

More, more of a, no, no, no, more, she, she more so reminds me of like a fiery version of, of Madison actually. Yeah, like Jen, Jen kind of reminds me of like, Payton Stearns reminds me of Jen Brady. Like that feels like a wonderful, like, you know, slide that thing under and let it rip. I

Torrey Hawkins (59:13.855)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (59:21.715)
Right, just not as tall. I think Jen may be a tad taller than Peyton, but I get your point. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (59:24.636)
Yeah, yeah, but I feel like Ashlyn is a one off of Madison and I favor players who, obviously you want someone who can do it all right, move well, has the hand skills, has the pop, but if anything, she's got the big serve, she's got the big forehand and is a competent mover. I think those things add up to, and she's 20, right? She ain't 25, she's 20, right? So that is, I think,

Torrey Hawkins (59:37.334)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (59:49.419)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (59:53.6)
She's the one that I wanna keep an eye on this year. Because I think she just hit the circuit maybe last year or the year before. But that's the one, she's my sleeper for this year. We have this conversation this time next year and I feel like she's the one that we're talking about like, whoa, 25 in the world, huh? I feel like she can cut that ranking in half.

Torrey Hawkins (59:56.864)
Okay?

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:06.975)
Okay, see you later. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:17.783)
My sleeper of this list is Amanda Nesemov. The girl can flat out hit a ball. She's taller than you think. The backhand is all day. I think she has the game. She has the temperament. She has the experience down the tour if she can stay healthy and rekindle her want, her will, her hunger to reach back inside the top 10. She's my sleeper because of her skill set.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:23.669)
my god, that backhand, Jesus.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:44.919)
Getting a little older, not too much older. She's at 30. I think she's probably about 24, 24, 24, 25. But she's my sleeper. I get you on you girl, Ashlyn Krueger. I think she's not a I think Peyton Stearns, in my opinion, has

Alvin Owusu (01:00:48.284)
It's like 24, 25, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:00.163)
Peyton and Ashlyn are on that curve. They're on the way up there. They're starting their three year peak, right? I think injury's not withstanding. I think Amanda is right there at the top. She's right there in her prime. If she were to make a move, it's right now. And I'm encouraged by the fact that she's right outside the top 20 right now. She could make some moves. She's my sleeper this year.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:05.914)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:25.038)
Yeah, and I back you on on Amanda because she, you she's had a rough go since obviously 2020. And then I think it was 2022 her dad passed. And then so she took some time away from the tour and came back, came back and looked like, you know, the player she was, she just, just wasn't in shape, right? Just wasn't in shape. And then, and then she kind of got in shape, but her body wasn't up to the task of playing year round. It's the

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:44.578)
Yup, bye. Bye.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:48.728)
Right. You remember, you remember your girl, Vandaway, what was, Coco Vandaway. She reminds me, she has Coco skills. I remember when watching Coco in the later years, she just wasn't in shape and just wasn't hurt herself, but there was not a better Coco was a better, in my opinion, hands Davenport with all court game just wasn't as explosive.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:53.817)
Yeah, Coco. Yeah, Coco by the way. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:13.656)
Maybe not as dumb, she's pretty tall, Kiki was her dad. You know what I mean? she, you know, so you got, you got some height on that side. I feel like Amanda has that level of skills. Amanda is a smoother capriotti that can absolutely tag it anywhere. Has a big serve on her own, has good hands, good returns. She has one of my favorite shots and that's the inside out backhand return on the deuce side, going out wide on the deuce that you just can't defend, right? It just breaks your, breaks your ankles every time you see it.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:16.364)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:35.43)
Torrey Hawkins (01:02:42.842)
But that's one of those shots to me that Andy Murray has that shot as well. There's only a few players. Serena had that shot. Only I would tell you there's 10 players in the world that have that ball consistently. that's, and I call it me and I call when I see that shot, I see that's world-class. Andy Murray, of course, had a world-class backhand. Agassi had it a little bit. Agassi of course preferred to pull it, pull it line. Marty Fish had that ball. I know Serena had that ball. There's some of your best backhands in the world have had that ball.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:58.647)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:12.461)
Coco hits that ball from time to time. But you heard it right here. Amanda owns that ball. And that's one of the shots where I love that for her. She just, and she's smart enough and sharp enough to hit that ball when she needs to. And she's tall, fit, if, sorry, if she's fit, she has the chance. She has the ability to go, in my opinion, top 10 and really wreck some havoc.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:27.883)
if she's fit.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:34.935)
because I think she knows her game is there. Now again, to your point, I'm compromised. I'm thinking with my heart more than with my head. When I watch her and Sebi Korda, that's a fun day to me. I'm not putting them in top eight category yet. They haven't proved that. But at the same time, love watching what they do with the paintbrush.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:56.449)
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's a good place for us to pause for today's conversation, tonight's conversation, it's a late one, it's a late one. But I made the mistake of last time we got together, I feel like I took something from the people. We did not take a trip to Coach's Corner. So it's back, and this one's near and dear, and this one is definitely in the weeds, right?

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:04.536)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:14.212)
fair enough. Fair enough. Talk to me.

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:20.889)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:22.433)
This is about the hands. What should a player do with their non-dominant hand when in a baseline rally? And I'll give you a little further context, right? I've always, you see it, most players go, you know, non-dominant hand on throat, right? Prep for the forehand. I personally find that if the rally, if the tempo is too high,

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:31.833)
Hmm

Mmm, please.

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:43.172)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:51.405)
I can't take my non-dominant hand to the shaft of the racket and make the grip change to hit the backhand. It's too much going on, it's too late. I'm faster going from both hands on the grip to sliding the non-dominant hand up to the throat as I make the unit turn for a forehand. It's a smaller change for me, personally. So I wanna hear from you, is... Yes.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:00.058)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:12.6)
Okay. So, so if before you ask me the question, do you feel like you just said, I get you right, that you're better off going from backhand to forehand transition than forehand to grip change backhand? Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Alvin Owusu (01:05:32.679)
If I'm putting my non-dominant hand on the throat, I can't go throat hand down and make the change.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:39.758)
Yep. And I would tell you that why would you not hold both grips? Why would you not hold forehand lefty? I know you're lefty and hold right hand backhand elbows out, ready to move. And that move becomes just that it's part of the grip change. The part of unit turn you're already holding forehand. You never not hold forehand. Your right hand just flows up. Maybe the thumbs on it. Maybe the hand comes off. Doesn't matter. As long as you separate when you, when you feel the tempo.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:01.643)
Right, yeah, yeah,

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:09.724)
But the backhand, in my opinion for you, you're lefty, so your right hand has to turn that grip down. There's no other way to do it. Here's my question. This is my answer for Coach of the Corner. Think to your return to serve. It is the one moment where it is the fastest it'll ever be and you don't know. I bet you on your returns. I'm not talking about facing a guy like Eva Nizovic or somebody who's popping bombs in the corners.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:14.53)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:28.513)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:36.569)
That's just a hope and pray and go continental and, hope to hope and hope you get a good crack at the ball and block it back deep. We're talking about a makeable return. That's going to stretch you. I bet you, I bet you some money. You're holding Connie left backhand grip and you're flipping to the forehand and able to either buggy or roll forehand as best you can, but you're probably not holding lefty forehand. if some of the better returns would tell you they're holding both.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:06.167)
Hold, hold forehand grip on bottom at all times.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:10.095)
Hold forehand, hold forehand at bottom and hold backhand on top. Elbows out, elbows out. Unit turn go. It's just that fast. The great Brian Vahaley was at one of the best returns top 15. Well, Bobby Reynolds told me something, something similar. Sco used to hold both hands down. He was almost Western on the forehand on returns because he felt like

Alvin Owusu (01:07:14.367)
on top. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:34.078)
it was closer to his other grip and he would literally hold left hand on top of the throat, near the throat, not near the top of the handle, near the throat. And so when he went forehand, his racket was already down. And he told me the same. says, I feel better from holding both grips. And these are all, mind you, sir, was my big weapon. I I registered a 143 back in the day, back in the, you know, early nineties. I had, I was bringing some heat. Unfortunately for me, my return was abysmal, but I was blocking everything.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:54.177)
Oof. Oof.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:03.505)
from a bygone era. So, helped me appreciate that holding the return and that grip helped him be able to make returns. I've seen him hit a ball off of an overhead. Because he was holding both. He's like, I'm holding both, it doesn't matter. I'm not thinking kind of.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:22.071)
Yep, that makes sense because when it's flowing, I feel that I am actually closer to holding both. Like both hands almost, know, butt to butt, I've got the forehand grip and I'm right there for the backhand. I'm already going into the turn, my top hand doesn't have to move at all.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:24.356)
And there's and and

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:38.557)
you're already going to turn and as you move it, you, it's your right hand from us right is this left hand, that left hand is turning down and as it's turning down, the right arm is straightening out and at that point, your unit turn is complete when the grip is correct, right? Because at that point, you now have turned. Until then you have hold, you have fold, you have flip down, have something wonky, but until you can get that inside arm, know, first backhand for you being left,

Alvin Owusu (01:08:53.183)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:08.445)
until you can get that left arm straight. You can't hold that left arm straight with the wrong grip. You know what mean? And you wouldn't hold kind of, you know what I mean? You'd hold forehand. So you gotta hold both grips, little bit of elbows out. Look at the, you know who has one of the best return of service? And I'm gonna give him a lot of credit here. And think he's, and one of my coaches who worked with him told me this, and I thought it was a great point. The fact that he nailed this, Tommy Paul. Tommy Paul has some of the best returns you've seen on the men's tour.

aside from Novak himself. The kid just has a, he has the perfect shortest of backswing. You haven't seen Tommy miss many returns. I mean, he is, he's apps, he's a, he's a dad gum. He's a dad gum robot on the backhand side. But I say to him, what does he do? He has both grips. He turns it, shortens the swing, holds it, rips it, done. It's as simple and as efficient as it can be. You look at Novak, very similar.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:42.039)
Yeah.

Especially on the back outside, jeez.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:06.578)
Forget all this eye movements and all this looking around and all this.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:13.019)
He has a unit turn Alvin that is all day. And once he takes that big split step and turns, he holds it at 135, 140 plus loads it, connects it inside the baseline and returns it back to you like, buddy, what else you got?

Alvin Owusu (01:10:22.699)
Right, yeah, seriously, get out of here.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:31.693)
on the top of your toes too, on the shoelaces.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:33.988)
on the top of your toes and the shoelaces. So that's my point. For those at home, if you want to take your returns up a level, especially on second serves, hold forehand bottom, backhand top, elbows slightly out, slightly bowed, get that unit turn. It ain't a unit turn until you've changed the grip slash, know, gone with thumb on the throat on the forehand. It ain't a true unit turn until you can do that. And you don't need backswing. The more pace, the less backswing you need, but you got to have the grip and you to have the turn.

And if you need more time, that's a week and as we could serve back up, back up and go Carlo and go Carlos. Carlos actually hits a second serve return from further back and rips the crap out of it. I mean, it's that ball like a darn three second blackout. Like you said, the old school Arizona. Remember the old Arizona? Yeah. Back in the day, he hits that return. Like he's hitting over like a double net. He blocks a lot of everything else and he rolls that dadgum return on the second. It's like, buddy, you messed up. You didn't gave me my heavy ball. I'll lie to the doll.

Alvin Owusu (01:11:20.566)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:11:34.719)
Right, exactly. Exactly.

Torrey Hawkins (01:11:34.921)
Very similar. Heavy return, nice and deep. Now what you got. Now hit that first strike from right there, up over your shoulders. And I'd please, please come in off that ball. Thank you.

Alvin Owusu (01:11:40.301)
And I dare you to try to come in behind it as if I don't have this. yeah. Coach, that was a fantastic trip to Coach's Corner. it feels good. I feel rejuvenated. My most recent trip to the court was pretty trash. you know, we know, yeah, exactly, exactly. We all come back to hopefully play another day. And for the people out there still rocking with us, thank you, one.

Torrey Hawkins (01:11:58.079)
100%.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:09.185)
We've had some positive feedback. We're getting our reps in here and it's feeling good. Do the things that you're supposed to do, which is like like and subscribe and follow. Rate us, review us, five stars only. Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:12:23.237)
some questions, ask some questions, put some stuff, put some stuff in the comments. We'd love to add, I would love to add a section in of the listeners to see what they would like us to expound upon. Give us your two cents. Let us break it apart. Let us, I heard the other day they're gonna nix Pete, they're gonna, they're gonna nix around the horn and they're gonna extend

PTI pardon interruption, right? I know that's that's right in your neck of the woods and your job. But I say it to say, I would love to hear the people out there in tennis land, give us something to chew on, so to speak, that's kind of near and dear, and be able to to kind of break it down and give it our give it our two cents. We were coming up with some of our own subjects and whatnot. We got the tour to kind of give us a backbone. But I would love to see us have

Alvin Owusu (01:12:50.038)
Torrey Hawkins (01:13:18.656)
to kind of chew on a bone that a listener has thought enough to put some time into a good question or a good, you know, who versus who, you know, and why, you know, because that really gets into the weeds of tennis for the for us, for us purists, that really gets into the weeds for us. And I personally love those kinds of conversations and those kinds of, you know, situations. So look forward to hearing from you, those out there who are listening in.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:45.931)
Yep, that's right blow up the chat and I'll i'll leave you with that tori always a pleasure Catch you on the next one

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:52.604)
Alvin, pleasure's mine. Yes, sir.