Ep. 23: Angie Haynes on the Game, the Grind, and the Future of Women’s Tennis

Alvin Owusu (00:01.322)
What is up welcome to another edition of the best of three podcast I am well, guess i'm always alvin so i'm still alvin joined again today By torii hawkins torii. you doing?

Torrey Hawkins (00:08.129)
I'm good, Alvin. What up, what up?

Alvin Owusu (00:13.582)
Oh, good to hear. Good to hear your voice. Good to see your face. Um, and also, uh, good to see you, Ms. Hayes. are joined, uh, by one Angie Hayes, uh, on today's episode. Um, for those of you who don't know, you're about to get real familiar. She had a career high rank of 95 on the WTA tour, uh, made third round at the, uh, 2004 U S open. She has seen some things straight out of Southern California. Angie Hayes. Welcome to the best of three podcast.

Torrey Hawkins (00:16.949)
Thanks.

Angie Haynes (00:43.009)
Thank you, Alvin and Tori. So nice to be here. What an honor. I really appreciate you guys reaching out to me. this is an honorable moment for me, but this should be fun.

Alvin Owusu (00:53.516)
Yeah, it's going to be great. It's going to be great.

Torrey Hawkins (00:55.38)
We are looking forward to it, Angie. Angie, when I think of Angie Haynes, the first thing comes to my mind was the durag you were wearing back in the day. I remember the big forehand, you had the babelots. I mean, and I remember, and I'm gonna give a shout out to my main man, Fred, your father. Fred gave me a ride back to the hotel. We were at Easter Bowl one year, Alvin. And Fred had about six different colors of shades.

Angie Haynes (01:02.487)
I knew you. I knew it.

Angie Haynes (01:14.07)
Ha ha!

Torrey Hawkins (01:25.797)
each one to match his outfit. Angie, am I right? Had each one matching the outfit, Alvin, I mean, if he wore red, he had a black and red pair of shades. He had orange, white, blue. You know what saying? So I'm giving you, this is how far me and my girl go back right here. Angie, first of all, how's Fred doing? And then a little bit more about our questions.

Angie Haynes (01:29.353)
It's true. It's true.

Alvin Owusu (01:37.08)
There you go, there you go.

Angie Haynes (01:40.021)
You taking me back.

Angie Haynes (01:49.525)
He's wonderful.

Angie Haynes (01:53.821)
Man, look, my dad is awesome. Goodness, yeah, I forgot how deep my dad was. Yes, no, my dad takes a lot of pride in his outfits and everything. He just is a prideful man. But yeah, what a, what an experience. Like, and my dad had to make sure I was on point. Like now I will say my dad did not agree with the Durex at all. Like we fought.

Torrey Hawkins (02:06.235)
for sure.

Torrey Hawkins (02:15.507)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (02:19.106)
Ha ha ha ha.

Torrey Hawkins (02:19.493)
Really?

Angie Haynes (02:21.587)
often about me wearing those and the interesting thing is once I transitioned to the tour I remember playing of I'm going brain brain dead there was a tournament at Stanford anyways I'm playing I'm playing my like debut WTA

Torrey Hawkins (02:23.272)
Wow, I didn't know that.

Angie Haynes (02:43.583)
and I lose the first set, I'm sorry, I lose the second set and I take my bandana off. Like the first set was amazing, lost the second set and the crowds like put the bandana back on like they started like blaming like you need that to win like put it back. After that my dad didn't say a word. He didn't say a word. So ever since then, like that was my go-to. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (03:05.07)
There you go.

Torrey Hawkins (03:06.364)
I

Torrey Hawkins (03:10.726)
That was your blanket. That was a security blanket, no doubt. Well, that's funny. And the only reason I bring it up is that as I'm looking at your lovely hair, I'm like, this is probably the third time I've seen you. You know what I'm saying? But in all seriousness, Alvin, the young lady was not only good, obviously she was a top junior. And I went on to play pro tennis. She was from content.

I mean, and so we're not talking from, you know, Thousand Oaks and these other, you know, highfalutin Malibu and these other highfalutin kind of places. So, and Angie, perhaps you can speak a little bit about your story. Tennis in California. I know you had a couple of fairly famous hitting partners and kids you were training with back in the day. know Fred told me something about him and Richard back in the day. I'll let you take a...

Angie Haynes (04:01.431)
Yeah, I started tennis very early. I'm the youngest of three, my brother and sister, and they played. And of course, you know, they would take me to the courts every day. So eventually I ended up picking a racket. And before you know it, we was on the court for like 10 hours a day. I'm like, I ain't signing up for this. But by the time I was, believe like four and a half, five, we were actually training next to Venus and Serena. And like I said, my dad is very prideful, very competitive.

Torrey Hawkins (04:13.126)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (04:15.948)
Hahaha

Torrey Hawkins (04:16.059)
All right.

Torrey Hawkins (04:28.207)
Yeah. Yeah.

Angie Haynes (04:29.963)
We were fighting to see who would stay. Now I know. They were competing to see who was going to stay on the court. Like, who was going to go home first? And I remember a couple times my mom had to come to the course. Like, dude, they got school in the morning. Like, it's nine to go. It was like nine o'clock at night. But yeah, I mean, we were training our tails off. And I actually never got to hit with Venus and Serena because I was the youngest. Serena's the same age as my brother, which is three years.

Torrey Hawkins (04:36.256)
All right.

Torrey Hawkins (04:47.61)
That's funny.

Torrey Hawkins (04:54.532)
Right. Yep.

Angie Haynes (04:57.759)
And then Serena's Venus is the same age as my sister, which is a five year gap. So, you know, they not hitting with a five year old, but my brother and sister, would, they would play sets, you know, sometimes we would switch. I would go train with Richard. The girls would train with my dad and we would just torture each other. So, it was, it was nice like being in that setting, you know, like being pushed and just being able to look over and see somebody being tortured as much as you are. and then being able to see.

Torrey Hawkins (05:03.835)
Sure, sure.

Angie Haynes (05:26.837)
like the success, the labors of our hard work. I remember seeing Venus and I'm like, dude, like, and then being able to see Serena at her first debut tournament, we actually ran into Venus and we hadn't seen them in a long time. And the fact she recognized us and he was like, dude, this is crazy. We were all like just reflecting. Like it was, it was like, it can happen. we've been working so hard and it was just.

Alvin Owusu (05:51.874)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (05:51.947)
Right, right.

Angie Haynes (05:56.679)
overwhelming and that pushed me like dude i've seen serena and seeing what Venus was doing i'm like okay it's real like we can do that absolutely

Alvin Owusu (06:03.47)
You know, you see.

Torrey Hawkins (06:03.939)
Right. As you said, it can happen. And that probably put a lot in you to validate all that you were putting in at that time. That's real. I like that. We always talk about the impact a player like that can have to the masses that are outside, but you were right there. You were in the back of the fence watching your brother and sister spar. That no doubt had a huge impact on you.

Angie Haynes (06:09.492)
Absolutely.

Angie Haynes (06:13.973)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (06:28.14)
Let me ask you this from the standpoint of like just, we've seen this before, right? We talk about how small training groups have an impact on each other and how the people that you share court time with, whether it's on the same court or the court next to you, right? Pushing each other, pushing each other. We can take all the grand slams out of it, right? There were still three black girls who went on to play professional tennis who grew up in an area that was not a tennis hotbed, not yet, right?

Torrey Hawkins (06:36.023)
and

Angie Haynes (06:56.523)
Thank

Alvin Owusu (06:57.09)
But so like what were some of the things like when you guys were all training together before they left for Florida that really, you know, stuck with you or pushed you to want to, you know, continue to put in that kind of effort.

Angie Haynes (07:09.247)
I think overall it was just everyone's fight on the court. For me, like being so young, I was at an age where I was just being obedient. You know, I was doing the reps, I didn't want to get in trouble, you know, like, but looking on their side of the court, they had the whole family there as well. Like that's something that really stuck out to me. Like Oral Scene was there, their sisters were there.

Like it was a family effort. that helped me to understand later and even appreciate the sacrifice that we were all like putting in. Like at that time, obviously I didn't understand it, but now I'm like reflecting back and like looking at what we all went through. That was a major sacrifice on everybody's part. And I just, as a parent now, I appreciate that. Like that is so priceless. Like you can never really almost thank your parents.

Torrey Hawkins (07:46.912)
Right, right.

Angie Haynes (08:07.979)
for what they did. It felt like a punishment at the time, dude, just playing cards with my son when I get home from work, be like, give me five minutes. So yeah, that really has an impact on me to this day. So yes, thank you, dad.

Torrey Hawkins (08:08.054)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (08:11.84)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (08:12.244)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (08:16.535)
Ha ha ha!

Torrey Hawkins (08:20.052)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (08:26.901)
That's real right there. That's real.

Alvin Owusu (08:27.566)
That's awesome. That's awesome.

And then just kind of like kind of sticking with that kind of, uh, you know, that, that junior tennis space that you were in, like you talked about the, you know, the, the age difference between you and then Serena that, that three years and then another few between, uh, and then even on Divina. So once they left the area and you were starting to come into your own as a, you know, successful, you know, junior tennis player, um, like I know California is its own section. Yeah. Southern California is its own section. Southern is. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Angie Haynes (08:57.419)
Yeah, so thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (08:58.153)
No.

Alvin Owusu (09:00.334)
When did you start to realize, when did it start to come together for you? I assume it's the path of results are starting to come in, you're feeling good, you get to about 13, 14, put me in that space of.

Angie Haynes (09:12.905)
Now here, the interesting part, like I said, my dad was training some animals, okay, me and my brother. And all through our junior career, like in California, we were number one in every section. And I was always the youngest in my group. So from tens, by the time I was 13, I was number one in the 18s in California. So like, my dad was like, it's time to like, let's start playing open tournaments. Let's go to Europe for, went to Europe for six months.

Alvin Owusu (09:27.512)
Okay.

Angie Haynes (09:41.963)
when I was 13 just to dabble and see, to, and let me say, I got my butt whipped, okay, while I was over there.

Alvin Owusu (09:43.24)
wow.

Alvin Owusu (09:47.692)
Yeah, but what does that look like though? Like that's a really cool experience.

Angie Haynes (09:52.147)
It absolutely was a learning experience for me because it's a different ball. It's a different mindset. You know, I was very strong. So even at 13, I'm like blowing these girls off the court. You know, that tour ball is a whole nother ball. These are adults. Like these are women that have experienced, they're not quitting. They're constructing the points different. I actually have to.

Alvin Owusu (10:04.642)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (10:09.555)
you

Torrey Hawkins (10:13.467)
Yeah.

Angie Haynes (10:19.095)
You know a lot of the matches that I played when in junior did in my section

I didn't have to think much. know, like, hey, I got a good serve. I worked my forehand, boom, I'm done. I didn't really like learn to start constructing my plays and even using my weapon to the best of my ability until I was maybe about 15, 16. And again, that Europe trip really helped me to understand where I actually needed to improve. Like it was very humbling for me, like being out there and not winning any matches. Like this is weird.

Alvin Owusu (10:52.494)
Mm-hmm.

Angie Haynes (10:54.921)
And it was on a whole other surface. Like I had no patience as like an aggressive baseline or like I'm looking to move forward. I'm looking to come in. Now I'll have to choose like wisely when they come in on clay. Hitting flat, that didn't do anything. I'm hitting like 20 balls of rally all of a sudden instead of like two balls. That was completely different for me. So like I said, it was very humbling. So I had to go back and like hit the reset button.

Torrey Hawkins (10:55.173)
Yeah.

Good.

Torrey Hawkins (11:08.923)
Yep.

Angie Haynes (11:23.991)
after that experience.

Alvin Owusu (11:26.35)
Okay, okay. So what does that look like? I'll let you slide in there. But what does that look like when you come back, right? At 13 years old, you spent six months in, were you in Spain or?

Angie Haynes (11:38.241)
So we went to Budapest, spent a lot of time in Germany. Yeah, we spent most of our time in Germany over there. So no, didn't play in any Spanish places, but it was still red clay everywhere.

Alvin Owusu (11:49.762)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (11:56.173)
Yeah. yeah. yeah. So then you come back and what's that? is Angie look like as she's done her time with the Germans?

Angie Haynes (12:06.805)
Yeah, that was more mental for me than anything. I had to, one, like I said, I had to learn how to play tennis. I'm just gonna say that. Using my weapons to my advantage as a lefty, I had to really learn how to do that. Had to learn how to be more precise with my serve. to learn, like I said, to construct points. So training had gotten a little bit different, whereas...

I started a lot more technical. We had to, and I'm not a thinker, I'm just gonna say that as a tennis player, I'm a very reactive type of player. The more I think, the worse I'm gonna play. So we just did a lot of like, started off with a lot of simple patterns where, hey, okay, I see it. Like, hey, three and one, I got that. Hey, do this, go deep cross-court heavy, I know what's coming next. So that's how we started like to train. And then,

Of course I didn't have to think and that stuff started really helping me to figure out like hey how am I winning my matches now? What's working? What's not working? Where do I need to adjust? So now I can think without having to overthink.

Torrey Hawkins (13:20.087)
I coached a young player back in the day, real tall Nigerian guy named Jonathan Ibignobia. I don't know if you remember Jonathan when you were here. But big player, mean, 6'5". He's about 175 pounds soaking wet, but he was, when I tell you Jonathan hit the absolute biggest, cleanest ball I had ever seen. He was an athlete from the word go. I mean, just, if I were to come back,

Angie Haynes (13:26.468)
That's a big name.

Alvin Owusu (13:28.352)
I remember Jonathan.

Torrey Hawkins (13:50.09)
As a tennis player, would be Jonathan. I would want to be Jonathan, his avatar, and then put my, you know, tennis IQ into Jonathan. It's funny you say what you were saying. I worked a lot with the guy named Brian DeHaley back when he was coming through and there was probably not a better tennis brain than Brian DeHaley. Jonathan was the complete opposite in the spectrum, like very reactive, what was almost, almost got worse if you coach him too much.

Angie Haynes (13:56.279)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (14:19.469)
You know what mean? You almost had to let him play. But like you said, it's funny, we started doing shooter a lot, doing a cross court game, you'd be able to get on the line. And I started teaching Jonathan the two plays. I wanted him to be able to either stay crossed, which was, you know, to him a big, you know, mind blowing thing, or wait for the right ball. And he started pointing his finger to me when he was playing. I said, Coach, I see it.

I see it. And I used to laugh because I'm like, to me that was pretty basic. But for him, and as clean as he was hitting it, a lot of people do a pattern, And we're trying to do it within five to eight balls. And the reason it takes eight balls for a guy like me, because five of my eight are gonna hopefully make it where I want them to go. The other three I'm trying to make up for and hope I don't.

Angie Haynes (15:05.119)
Right. Right.

Angie Haynes (15:12.951)
Right?

Torrey Hawkins (15:17.834)
mess it up in the meantime. You, Jonathan, were hitting those targets each of the five balls. And so I'm now flipping my brain to think like he does. If I had hit a ball like that, I might be looking to come in down the line too, you know, because I'd already tagged it as clean as it could be hit. And so I helped me really understand when you said that, it really helped me kind of bring it back. And so the nuances of countering.

weren't as often because you didn't really get countered. They were right in defense right away. Alvin, you would love watching Angie back today. Her ball was heavy. She had the perfect lefty hook angle. She loved her inside out. She had a nasty backhand slice. And then out of nowhere, out of nowhere, she would serve in volley and would stick the cleanest backhand volley you've ever seen. You're like, wow. Angie's not that tall. what are you, Angie, five or six?

Angie Haynes (15:56.236)
Thank you.

Alvin Owusu (16:01.666)
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about

Alvin Owusu (16:07.852)
Hey look, if you are-

Angie Haynes (16:10.357)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (16:12.906)
Right, you know what So it's not like she's six foot or you know what mean? I stood next to Venus going to check in one day. Venus is six two! I mean, maybe taller.

Angie Haynes (16:21.121)
do. Yes, you can.

Alvin Owusu (16:24.024)
Look, we are disciples of Marcelo Rios, okay? Like this is you know, lefties roping it like pre-Nadal. Like that was it.

Torrey Hawkins (16:27.306)
no doubt, no doubt. The rope forehand with the little heartbeat EKG orange on the Nikes back in the day. mean, with a little point, I'm your boy, Marcelo. Anyway, I say it to say, watching her play, and this is East of all, you we got crazy wind. You know what I mean? You got people, and a lot of the Californias, the Southern California section, I guess, North Cali too, but in those days, they didn't do a ton of traveling.

Alvin Owusu (16:36.941)
There you go.

Angie Haynes (16:40.349)
Yeah, a little ponytail, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (16:57.289)
over they may went to Nationals. Didn't see them at Clays a whole lot. So you'd see a whole new set of National kids when you went to Easter ball. For them it was almost like they're hard courts, you know, because you know they was right there in the backyard. I mean I saw players play. I'm like wow I mean I ain't seen this player all year.

Angie Haynes (17:00.981)
now.

Angie Haynes (17:06.123)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (17:14.456)
So Angie, from your perspective though, then like since you were spending so much time in California, like, you know, lot of really good players out there, one of the best sections in the country. What was it like when you went to the national tournaments?

Angie Haynes (17:14.679)
Yeah.

Angie Haynes (17:22.486)
Yeah.

man, look. It was like going out of the country. That's what it felt like. It felt so foreign. Like you said, a lot of those girls I haven't seen, the game styles, it was just new. And I remember a couple of my first national tournaments, they were tricky for me.

Alvin Owusu (17:30.392)
Okay.

Angie Haynes (17:50.583)
Because I'm like, where do I even start with my pattern? And then just the confidence, from a confidence standpoint, even with my background, again, I'm an over thinker. And I hate that about myself. And then on top of that, I'm overthinking, like, what is my dad thinking? That was one of the biggest things, like that parent-coach relationship.

It's a doozy. It's a doozy. So half of the time I was in my mind and then the other half I was in my dad's brain too. So, you know, I wasn't focused for half of my half of the time on the You know, that on top of that, I have somebody on the other side of the court that's trying to beat me. it was a mess. was just. Appreciate it.

Alvin Owusu (18:23.521)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (18:29.992)
Well, handle it okay. If I'm not mistaken, that particular one, got the semis, you got the semis at that Easter Bowl. And she was one those players I was talking about, that I remember saying, who is this girl? I've never seen this girl ever. You know what mean? And she's not only she's seeded and she's good. And I'm like, Haynes. I never heard of Angie Haynes. And I had seen tournaments at that point in time, Alvin, for eight years at that point at the national. I had been to pretty much every tournament, you know.

from all of them, all the way through. then to see somebody new, that good, I'm like, I didn't miss them. Being black, I definitely didn't miss them. I would have seen her from way back. And so was really interesting for me to see how she stacked up with some of the players. So this is good to kind of take it back. I want to follow up on one of Alvin's questions, because to me, history is such a good teacher. Looking back on some of the junior days.

Angie Haynes (19:06.711)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (19:28.474)
What was some of the things, and you're being very humble and I appreciate that, but look back at some of the things that you think helped you get through it. Because obviously a lot of it was your dad, a lot of it was your patterns. What are some of the things that you think looking back that you just did just a tiny bit better, 51 % right, better than your competition back then, especially at the national tournaments. And then obviously later on as you were transitioning into some of the pro tournaments, same question.

Angie Haynes (19:55.639)
I think it was my overall strength. The training that we endured and even the fear I had of my dad, like just of losing, helped me tremendously. Like always in my head I'm like, hey, I win this match or I go back to training.

That's one thing I didn't want to do. And on top of that, I knew for a fact, if I can get to this third set, if I can keep this girl out here as long as possible, I'm going to get stronger during this match. So any long matches, like I want to take this match long if I have to, because I knew without a doubt I was the strongest individual in the tournament I felt like. And that gave me so much confidence.

to just know that I could compete and be on the court with anyone. that I definitely, I take my hat off to my dad. again, I hated every minute of it. It was difficult, but I never had injuries. I was beyond confident when I was out there because my physicality, I was very athletic.

Torrey Hawkins (20:48.484)
Yeah.

Angie Haynes (20:58.423)
So yeah, I appreciate those things and I feel like that's what set me apart especially very early like again being young That set me apart from the rest

Torrey Hawkins (21:09.271)
Yeah. It was interesting to hear you talk about how big your ball was. And I thought you had a nice ball. You were hitting a lot heavier by the time. And I think you and I, I ran you and Fred, you had to be 15, maybe give or take 15 or so and playing Easter ball that year in the 18s. And your ball was heavy, you know? And so I'm kinda laughing. said, big. I'm like, And then you said, you're like, she must have gotten that other ball back on the clay. And because.

Alvin Owusu (21:09.912)
Gotcha.

Angie Haynes (21:33.195)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (21:36.823)
You had both, right? You had both. You could tag it, but you also were very heavy. You knew how to get the ball out of the strike zones. Again, you had the knife on the backhand side. Very good technically, Alvin. Very good technically. Had just a very good whip. Angie had the ability, and I quote Jonathan again, ironically, as I'm reflected back on YouTube, she would keep her head so still.

Angie Haynes (21:59.382)
my dad did not play with that part.

Torrey Hawkins (22:01.836)
So I was always, each time I see a person that hits the ball big or heavy in particular, and the head just doesn't move. I'm thinking of myself, pretty good timing, pretty good feel for the ball, but ball after ball, and you can almost see the person, they're almost completely still. The only thing moving is that hand and the shoulder. It is always something I love watching. And Angie had an open stance that would just rush the ball so, so beautifully. Watching her hit a ball would just fun to watch.

Alvin Owusu (22:30.87)
Well, let's take an impromptu trip to Coach's Corner then. So Angie, we do this thing here. I like to hit Tori at the end of the podcast, usually with a trip to Coach's Corner where we talk about something a little technical. that one right there, we're gonna talk about it right now. how do you train or teach someone to keep their head still at contact, consistently?

Angie Haynes (22:33.867)
Thank you too.

Angie Haynes (22:38.29)
look at that.

Torrey Hawkins (22:40.627)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (22:58.689)
I'm gonna defer to Angie first and see what Fred did for her, then I'm gonna tell you what I do. What did Fred do with you?

Angie Haynes (23:05.152)
Well, for us, everything was consequent space. So my dad put the fear of God in us first, and then we're like, don't move that head. So yeah, no, my dad, what he did, we started off with just a lot of drop feeds, and he had us like watch ourselves literally hit the bowl. And what's crazy, I can't actually see myself ever hit the bowl, but my eyes are directed where I want to make contact, and that's just where I stop.

Torrey Hawkins (23:09.141)
Right, right, My man.

My man, Yeah.

Angie Haynes (23:35.127)
And he's like, from there, don't move. just try your, he like, watch the ball hit your string, watch it hit your string. I'm trying to, but I don't see, I I personally don't see it. And I've been young, but that was his, his go-to. I'm like, I'm just going to follow directions. Period. Cause I don't want to run.

Alvin Owusu (23:45.624)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (23:51.747)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (23:53.92)
Right, right, right. Hey, negative reinforcement, heard me. I'm trying to tell you. Takes a little bit of crazy sometimes. Seal said it best. Little bit crazy. One of my favorites, and I picked it up from a coach at a, we were doing high performance training, and I thought it was a hokey tip when I first heard about it. And I started doing it all the time. You remember, Sco had that big, had some braids back in the day, so he's always real particular about his braids, you know what mean? So I would all.

Alvin Owusu (23:55.553)
If it works. If it works.

Angie Haynes (23:56.521)
It works!

Angie Haynes (24:03.863)
Dang it.

Torrey Hawkins (24:23.707)
have my hat right of course my hat was sweaty and everything else so I would grab a hat, any hat out of my bag I would punch the inside of it and I would put that hat just like this on the this is a bit of that same and I would put that hat right there on the top of Sco's head

Alvin Owusu (24:42.51)
of those who can't who are listening and watching, Torey is actually taking a hat and putting it on like almost rally cap style upside down, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:48.828)
rally cap style, inside out push down. And because he had the braids on, as you can appreciate, it wasn't a good fit. It wasn't like he's pulling it down. It was barely on the top. This is too easy, because it would stay on. If you had it on the top hat, the old, almost real thin Nike hats back in the day that had that, you could kind of go inside out, ones that washed real well. He had that hat on the inside out, lid forward, it's a rally cap style. And he would have to go through alley drill.

Angie Haynes (24:53.387)
I do.

Torrey Hawkins (25:18.429)
drop feet out of the air, didn't matter. If the hat came off, we did it again, another 25 times, every single time. And it got to the point where he would literally keep his head so still that it wouldn't matter. It was just, and I felt like, with one reason why he hit the ball so big and so clean, because everything stayed still on that axis. And I thought it was always something that I you know, I was gonna, I didn't ever want, I didn't ever want him

Angie Haynes (25:23.541)
Whoa.

Angie Haynes (25:39.873)
Hey.

Torrey Hawkins (25:48.037)
to have a ball, ironically, on his backhand side, he did anyway. I mean, I didn't have to teach that, you know what mean? It was mainly on the forehand side and I find each of us has a side that we're pretty more, we're just natural, a little more natural on, whatever side it may be. The other side, we have to really get up feet. And that's what I felt like the hat tip was a great one to really just keep your, and as you said, keep your eye focused on something instead of looking away.

Angie Haynes (26:04.353)
Mm-hmm.

Angie Haynes (26:16.01)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (26:16.54)
He told me one time, he says, I like some of your tips. says, I don't know if it was a little bit jab. He said, I don't know if it's the tip or what it gets me thinking about that I like. He says, I like it. And I always thought that was, I was kind of saying, hey, either way, I'm getting you to do what I need you to do, right? So, but there's your Coach's Corner album. Put a hat on your head, put something, something that you don't think that's easy to move and you don't realize how much you will turn your head right before, just eager to watch and see where it goes.

Alvin Owusu (26:25.646)
You

Alvin Owusu (26:34.754)
Yeah.

Angie Haynes (26:45.651)
In here, in here.

Alvin Owusu (26:45.996)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (26:46.757)
You just have to keep it still and just trust and watch that contact point as best you can.

Alvin Owusu (26:51.256)
So Angie, I wanna kinda go back a little bit. You mentioned your time in the six months you spent in Europe when you were a young teenager. Now as a mother, as a coach, looking back on that time and then also when you started traveling as a professional tennis player, how do you feel like you were received specifically as a black woman internationally and how did that?

did you recognize a difference when you were younger, both 13 and when you got on the tour, or is that something that maybe you think differently about now?

Torrey Hawkins (27:27.972)
Free, yeah.

Angie Haynes (27:31.255)
I gotta be honest, the first time we went to Europe, they were, it's like they'd never seen a black person in their life. That was the craziest thing to me, I think. And I actually don't think the six months we were there, I maybe saw two other black people while we were there. So the attention we got at the tournaments for sure, the attention we were receiving.

Alvin Owusu (27:41.506)
Yeah, I mean, that's, yeah.

Angie Haynes (27:58.997)
being for sure the only black person in the draw. And that was that.

Alvin Owusu (28:03.758)
Which is crazy to think about now, right? You think about that now, it's like, you gotta go back all the way to, that was probably like mid 90s, right? Late 90s, yeah.

Angie Haynes (28:11.623)
Yeah, yeah, so that was quite interesting, like being out there wanting to definitely prove yourself, definitely wanting to stand out, know, and represent your race, for sure. But yeah, I mean, I don't like attention anyway, so just the awkwardness for me, but I can understand at the same time, I'm not playing for myself, you know, I'm playing for my family, I'm playing for my...

my culture, my race. So, you know, I do my best to represent us very well. Now it's just a beautiful thing to see, it's so many, and we have so much talent, but not always given that opportunity. So I enjoy like turning on the TV and seeing like just so many different races now, seeing us, Corey, I like Pauline, you know, little firecracker. I really like her a lot.

Alvin Owusu (29:07.118)
Yeah, yeah. Hey, she's part guy name. gotta, they don't know. Let them know.

Angie Haynes (29:10.705)
You know what I'm saying? like, Keys doing her things, figuring it out, Parks. Like, I really enjoy that. I really enjoy that. And so motivated for the next, generation just to see that it, again, it can be done, you know, with hard work. So, no, I appreciate that. And it started, it started with the Williams sisters and then their history. And then, and I'm glad to be a part of that, you know,

Torrey Hawkins (29:11.947)
Okay.

Angie Haynes (29:39.179)
I was talking to a young lady a couple of weeks ago and just randomly she tells me how my, like watching me play affected her. And I was only top hundred, but just hearing like someone say that they appreciated like my fight, like her perspective of me is not my perspective of me. And it was just interesting. She's like, man, you were like such a fighter out there. went, I'm like, really?

That's not how I saw myself when I played. I was the shyest, nicest. I got in trouble for being nice so many times, but for her to say, every time she saw me play, I was very aggressive. I'm like, thank you. Yeah, right? Thank you.

Alvin Owusu (30:21.902)
I mean, let's, I can't.

Torrey Hawkins (30:23.383)
You always had the fist up too, Angie. Always had show popping the guns when you were, when you put the, let's go. I was, I love watching you play. And I agree with her, by the way. I agree with the lady that said that I come, I had the same opinion of you when I look back and watch pro matches, you know, that year at the Easter bowl. That's, that's every, every time I saw you play, I was, I was drawn in to watch you because not just the way you were,

Angie Haynes (30:31.34)
Ahem.

Alvin Owusu (30:32.098)
You know, because...

Torrey Hawkins (30:52.938)
Mastra will arc in that ball, just, you can literally see the wheels turning and what you're gonna do to get this girl into your net, into your web, so to speak. And it was just fun. was always, my dad's lefty, so I grew up, you and Alvin are lefty. So I was always looking at lefty players a little differently and I was always trying to, and when I'd see you, when I saw you play back then, I was always so, just appreciating your fight, appreciating how savvy,

Angie Haynes (31:05.851)
Ooh, you never told me that.

Angie Haynes (31:11.127)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (31:22.2)
You coach, especially if have a couple girls that aren't ass savvy. You see girls just ooze as savvy and just knows how to get the ball that she wants. And now that I'm hearing you say it, hats off again to Fred. But I'm looking at it and say, that's exactly what I remember about you. I remember how just tactically you were gonna get the ball, you want it back, period.

Angie Haynes (31:37.345)
Thank you.

Alvin Owusu (31:41.903)
And you can't say just top 100. I mean, we normalize, we know us in the tennis community, we normalize these people who are seated at Grand Slams or winning Grand Slams. That's just kind of normal. I'm not even top 100 in my zip code, right? Let's call it what it is to be the top 100 at something in the world.

Torrey Hawkins (31:45.65)
Yeah.

Angie Haynes (31:46.156)
Yeah

Alvin Owusu (32:09.01)
is like that deserves recognition, that deserves praise. Like that lady, yeah, she's lucky she was able to watch you and consider you an inspiration. So we're gonna cut that just top 100 nonsense right here.

Torrey Hawkins (32:09.253)
out.

Angie Haynes (32:19.148)
Thank you. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (32:22.036)
Glad you have remained humble though and that's a great attribute. I want to ask a little bit more about looking at the tour. Tell me what you miss about it. Tell me some of your, maybe a personal best, maybe just a funny story that kind of you reflect on your years on the tour.

personal best a moment you said you know what I'll always think about this this put a smile on my face

Angie Haynes (32:58.807)
So many memories. I will say my funniest and most memorable memories, my first time going to Australia to play. And we leave Christmas night to get to Australia. And my dad and I are so exhausted. I believe we're in Auckland. so it's beautiful. They have the fireworks going on.

Enjoying the view and we just lay down we have the patio open we lay down I think my dad fell asleep, but my eyes were closed for a good 10 minutes And I hear my dad say Angie open your eyes When I opened my eyes the entire ceiling was full of mosquitoes when I say When I say we couldn't see the white of the ceiling

Alvin Owusu (33:51.307)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (33:52.349)
No.

Angie Haynes (33:57.053)
It was all mosquitoes and it had to be about midnight. And I don't know why me and my dad and I didn't like call somebody, but we were jumping from bed to bed, like swatting mosquitoes for hours, hours. I had no idea there was mosquitoes in Australia. I laugh about that to this day, but that was like mortifying. So never again, we learned. I love Australia.

Torrey Hawkins (34:13.874)
you

Torrey Hawkins (34:24.945)
Don't leave the patio door open.

Alvin Owusu (34:26.338)
Don't leave the, don't leave the window open.

Angie Haynes (34:26.967)
Don't do it in Australia. And I love Australia, but yeah, that's a valuable lesson that I learned. But yeah, the things I miss, I miss the travel, you know? I did enjoy the traveling and just seeing different things and the arenas are also different. I really feel like no court is the same, like the stadiums.

the atmosphere and the energy from the crowd, know, things like that. It helped me to really appreciate the hard work that you put in. Like you said, what you bring to the table. I feel like the crowd, they help you to get to that next level and enjoy the moment, you know, really enjoy what you're doing out on the tennis court.

Alvin Owusu (35:21.731)
Yeah.

Angie Haynes (35:26.101)
And that's one thing like my dad, always like wanted out of my brother and I, he's like, you guys are going to be ticket sellers. Like if people are buying tickets to watch you play, have to win or lose. You have to entertain the crowd. So that's one thing from, from our youth. He's like, your game is going to be like this, but you're also going to be an entertainer. And

Torrey Hawkins (35:41.263)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (35:49.337)
Was that difficult for you transitioning? I'm always curious about going from playing tennis matches, junior tennis matches, to playing in a stadium. There's no real practice for that, say for a few examples, but what was that like for you just making that transition to I play in front of 20 people, I play in front of thousands of people?

Angie Haynes (36:13.235)
Yeah, it was overwhelming the very first time I played on Arthur Ashe at the US Open. They actually changed my match at the last minute. I was going to play Francesca Schiavone and we were set for grandstand. they, Arthur Ashe finished. They're like, hey, we got to put somebody on this court. So like 20 minutes before they're like, we're putting you there. And I never even trained on that court.

Alvin Owusu (36:26.798)
Mm-hmm.

Manageable court.

Angie Haynes (36:43.145)
And let me tell you, when I walked on the court, I'm like, this is twice the size of the... I was so overwhelmed and that tightened me up. That tightened me up so much like before the match. Because I just never experienced that before. So eventually I still... Come on, that's okay.

Torrey Hawkins (36:43.321)
Bye.

Alvin Owusu (36:43.405)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (36:49.081)
Thanks.

Torrey Hawkins (37:04.252)
Allen, me chime in on you, Angie, because I have a little something on this that people may not fully understand. You don't get to practice in Ash unless you are a top-seeded player. You go to the play to the window, book a court, you will not even see Ash available to be booked.

Angie Haynes (37:17.825)
Right.

Angie Haynes (37:24.887)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (37:25.646)
You don't have that status.

Angie Haynes (37:27.937)
RUH!

Torrey Hawkins (37:28.127)
You have to, you have to go, there's an office right outside the tournament director's office, his secretary or whatever, she manages the court schedule for Ash. You have to have a special pass just to get in there, you got clearance and all that, and it's the big time. They are only ones in there. I remember Sco was gonna play the doll. We got to play, in fact they say, well, you're playing on Ash, you need to be able to practice on Ash. Come with us.

and you have to go to the separate office to get with old girl just to get you some practice time in on Ash. Here's a second little note. I'm playing on Ash. Angie, it feels like a football field with the tennis court and the men's line. The stands go up like this, like a runway. The French open, Alvin, the seats are like this. Like a cup of coffee. know what I Rival is pretty tight. Australia's...

Angie Haynes (38:08.565)
Tell me about it!

Yes! Yes!

Alvin Owusu (38:18.816)
Right, yeah. Well, even center chord of Wimbledon is pretty tight.

Torrey Hawkins (38:26.699)
not as tight, tighter on the back, but then on the sides, US Open is like, it is like a darn, like a plate more than a bowl, right? And Alvin, I remember feeding balls, and then of course, know, I'm shaking, I'm tight feeding, I'm tight feeding balls. I hit a couple of balls with Sco waiting on one of the players, I shaked the forehand and I'm like, oh.

Alvin Owusu (38:26.949)
Ehh

Yeah.

It's a joke.

Angie Haynes (38:32.683)
Lord.

Angie Haynes (38:39.447)
Were you shaking?

Alvin Owusu (38:43.042)
Hehehehehe

Angie Haynes (38:51.489)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (38:56.651)
There's nobody in there watching me. There's 50 people mulling around, half of them people that work at the venue. Ain't nobody watching. I'm tight. I'm counting. Alvin, I'm using the cadence in the warm, and I'm rolling balls down to the court. Talk about tight. And so, Sco yells over to me. You little tight T.H.? I said, little tight. And I'm laughing. pulled it down. Pulled it down strong.

Angie Haynes (39:05.739)
Yes.

Alvin Owusu (39:08.046)
There you go.

Alvin Owusu (39:20.078)
You keep, put a hat on your head, keep your head still.

Torrey Hawkins (39:26.854)
I finally got comfortable about five minutes in. Breathing, I felt like an elephant was on my chest and I was in great shape. Had nothing to with my heart. And I'm like, and I looked around and I'm like, can you imagine this thing full? And so I told, it's going on, I'm about it now, but I, so I wanted to just add some color to what she's just talking about. You don't get a chance to play in there. There's players that have played their whole career.

Angie Haynes (39:27.319)
Right!

Angie Haynes (39:34.485)
Crazy!

Torrey Hawkins (39:56.073)
that have never played in Ash Stadium or Chatrier or Simatop, unless they're maybe once or twice they played a seed on the way. So I say that to say, getting a chance to play on that stadium is a big deal, let alone to get comfortable on playing there. You don't get comfortable on there unless you played there about five, six times and then you kind of know what's up. Angie, I'm glad you brought that up because...

Angie Haynes (40:11.755)
you.

You're right.

Angie Haynes (40:23.689)
No look, I can- I really appreciate you because you knew how Skull fell. You like, look. And you're finna play the dial, like... When you play Roddick on on- on Ash too- yeah, that- yeah. Yeah. Dude. You can't see that in the daytime.

Torrey Hawkins (40:28.743)
Woo! Buddy! Buddy! And he...

Alvin Owusu (40:37.174)
At night. At night.

Torrey Hawkins (40:38.371)
At night with Roddick Sir? One of the best quotes I heard, the guy asked him in the press conference, how was it, you how did you, you know, how did you handle Andy Sir or whatever? And Sco said, I didn't, you know, I didn't. He said, I was trying not to get hit, but the first one, I was laughing at that, but it was real, know, but I was so, I was so.

Alvin Owusu (40:53.832)
Hahahaha

Angie Haynes (40:58.07)
Right?

Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (41:03.298)
I was so impressed at his honesty, you know, at that moment, you know what I mean? Because you feel naked out there, you know what I mean? little bit. So anyway, I'm glad you mentioned that because that's something that a lot of people don't fully appreciate. I'm going to add one more thing on a little bit of a tangent. How many people, Alvin and Angie, have you seen, especially in junior tennis, that kind of endure matches that don't like playing on the front court or show court or whatever?

Angie Haynes (41:08.673)
Yeah!

Torrey Hawkins (41:31.441)
They kind of get through it, but they're kind of tight the whole time. They have never really come to grips with the performance. You said your dad was speaking to. They're not comfortable being on stage. They endure, not relish. And I find that is something that at a higher level, depending on your personality, of course, but you've got to get around that. You've got to get your head around being able to be comfortable on that stage and not

Angie Haynes (41:55.073)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (42:01.329)
feel like there are 20,000 people and millions at home on TV watching you. I wanted to know both your thoughts on that, do you reflect on yourself, of course, others? Have you ever seen people that were just uncomfortable playing on a show court, a big time court? Clearly then, and magnify that times 100, right? And you go play it to Ed Ash, either one of you.

Alvin Owusu (42:25.998)
Angie, do you want to do you want to go first or?

Angie Haynes (42:29.279)
I think I need some time to think on this one.

Alvin Owusu (42:30.656)
Yeah, I'll give you one personal example. So I played four years at a Division II school, right? and you know, in college you play, gosh, 30, 35 matches a year, right? So by the time I finished playing, had, you know, a good close to 100, 150 matches under my belt, like high level competitive matches, singles and doubles, right? So, but I'll take you all the way back to my very first semester in college.

Angie Haynes (42:49.089)
Good grief.

Alvin Owusu (42:58.306)
very first tournament in the fall, we go up to ODU and we're playing, you know, lot of play to division two school. We're playing a lot of D one schools, Virginia tech's there. UVA sent some players down there. Like these are good players and I'm playing in a doubles match against this team from Virginia tech. And the guy on the other side was also a freshman. He was like top 20 in the country. I was in juniors. I was, I was not. So I was

Angie Haynes (43:24.906)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (43:26.798)
tighter than a hamstring. Like I literally made two returns the entire doubles match. I made two returns and my partner's two years, two years older than me. One of my, one of my best friends, we were in each other's weddings, but like he just, he just kept carrying me. like, come on, we got it. We got to keep going. We got to keep going. And I was, I could not play, like I can manage everything else, but like, I just couldn't, I couldn't make returns. They had stands, like the names on the, on the shirts were getting to me. Like the intent, was, it was too much.

Torrey Hawkins (43:43.47)
Yeah.

Angie Haynes (43:51.063)
you

Torrey Hawkins (43:55.063)
out.

Alvin Owusu (43:56.673)
And I say that that was my very first semester in college. By the time, you know, I made it through college. That was the kind of energy I was bringing, especially towards players who were younger than me. Fast forward when I start playing, you know, adult matches and ALTA and stuff like that. Like there is a very nuanced difference between ALTA players who are, you know, good adult players and then not the players who have, who have played the 150 matches in college. Like when it gets close, like when we, when we got a match that matters.

Torrey Hawkins (44:05.038)
Bye.

Torrey Hawkins (44:22.306)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (44:25.888)
You can tell who's who's going to shrink from the moment. And, know, we, Torrey, you and I both know Matt Emory coach, a coach at Kennesaw State. Matt was a really good player back in my age, back in the day. And, Matt and I played a doubles match against each other just last spring. And it was a really good match. Like you got some good players on the court. Three of us were, there for it. Matt's partner was not there for it. He, he was the tallest player on the court and man, he played smaller than me.

Torrey Hawkins (44:32.036)
100 %

Angie Haynes (44:33.046)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (44:53.544)
And it was just too much for him. And so that's my story of like, can see it. think it's people who enjoy the moment. Like, yeah, I can be in this place and these people can be here and they're gonna get a chance to watch me play as opposed to, my God, people are watching me play.

Angie Haynes (45:04.779)
the tension and stuff too.

Angie Haynes (45:17.235)
Yeah, yeah. I didn't, I never experienced playing with someone that shied away. Like I felt like everyone I played with in doubles for sure, like matched my energy. Maybe not in juniors, but for sure on, once I transitioned to this tour, I like gravitated to those type of players. Like I loved playing with Bethany Maddock.

Torrey Hawkins (45:46.154)
Yeah, she was, she loved the crowd. That's pneumatic sands up to her.

Alvin Owusu (45:46.19)
Hahaha!

Angie Haynes (45:47.447)
Yeah, so I'm still even trying to think but like like you said Tori I feel like it has a lot to do too with like personality styles and always think like just as a athlete as an entertainer you almost have to have like two different personalities because as a person I don't like attention, know, but

Torrey Hawkins (46:08.96)
Yep, that's all set.

Angie Haynes (46:16.011)
When I play, I like to attract an audience. I feel like I play better because of the energy from an audience. So yeah, no, I can't.

Torrey Hawkins (46:27.072)
You wouldn't find many on the tour because they would have all had to have been good at it to get to where they all are killers at that point, right? I think what I was getting at, and sometimes, Angie, and this is what I have to always remind myself, and I've gone full circle from working with juniors and beginning players to some pretty good players to some top national. was on the tour for three or four years with some players, and now I'm kind coming back to where I'm beginning with some beginning players, the neighborhood levels. Having seen it all, I'm reminded of

Alvin Owusu (46:30.84)
They're all killers. Like they're all killers.

Angie Haynes (46:31.543)
Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (46:56.384)
the reg, the, the, what I call the 90%, right? The people that have just planned to pick it up, they're playing league tennis. This is as big of a levels they may get to, which is great for them. And it's their own Super Bowl, so to speak. It's their own US Open, right? The finals are about to, right? It's a big deal. So, and I appreciate that. I'm never condescending. I think it's, it's each level has its own thing, right? And I think anything on my quick tangent, my issue for the USDA, we don't give the regular Joes enough of a

Angie Haynes (47:00.023)
sorry.

Angie Haynes (47:05.483)
Me.

Angie Haynes (47:09.249)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (47:25.408)
We don't give them their own US Open at their level, right? I think everybody should have their own level at some point. That's another talk show. But I find, Angie, you were this way. Alvin, you loved this way when you were at drill, especially as you got older. You loved being that kid on the other side, on the champ side of the wave. I mean, you talked smack. You would, don't let a kid miss an overhead. mean, Alvin would be ripping that guy about it for the next 30 minutes. Oh yeah, give it to him, give it to him. Oh, he's tight, he's tight. All of them talking trash.

Alvin Owusu (47:42.23)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (47:48.974)
Yeah

Angie Haynes (47:51.852)
you're terrible. You're terrible.

Torrey Hawkins (47:55.184)
So I laughed at him, I laughed at him because I remember again on both sides of it. it's funny how sometimes we grow into that, sometimes we get a little better. I can reflect back on my days more. I think in tennis it was even more, I always saw people are watching me. You said earlier, Angine, you were the only black person to draw. I'm from Kansas. We had three black people in the entire tournament, let alone in the draw. So that I grew up with and these are buddies of mine and so often we.

somehow played the first round, you know what saying? that was always, figure that, right? So that was always, that was always something. So you always felt like the people were watching you and that was never that big of a deal. I think my freshman year, my Morehouse team, we got, we went pretty deep and we always had a decent team when I played D2 basketball. And I think we got to whatever our conference term was and I got in. I literally banked a free throw. And when I tell you bank, like bank shot, bam, bam.

Angie Haynes (48:24.511)
Never fails. Never fails.

Torrey Hawkins (48:52.221)
And my boy looks at me like, you good, T.H.? I'm good now. But you just appreciate those moments when you got a little tight, you know? And so to me, you had to have been there, obviously. And so hats off to all of us who've been through a moment like that and have come out the other side, because now we know how to get calm and how to appreciate it. But it's something that I think back on. And that's why I wanted to ask you that question about, and a good junior has to get comfortable.

Angie Haynes (48:57.239)
Breathe.

Nah.

Angie Haynes (49:10.24)
again.

Torrey Hawkins (49:20.986)
being in that tournament on that second to last day, the last day, being the match people are starting to watch and just coming to some level of understanding it. So I had maybe a quick shift of gears as we kind of tail up here. Angie, I have a question for you. And this is, we've been hearing a lot in the tour in the news about the schedules for these tour players and the time, lack of time in some cases, right? From one tournament to the next, you are, you know, we wave a wand and you are the

Angie Haynes (49:25.015)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (49:50.585)
CEO of the WTA. What are some things you would change and why? And again, no script here. It's just a complete open oyster, so to speak. What would you do? Why? Maybe one, two, three, whatever you think from what you remember there, what you see happening now. What would you say?

Angie Haynes (50:12.395)
would definitely fund some of the lower level tournaments more. I found what seemed unfair is I felt like the boys got more funding. Some of the tournaments that we would co-ed, the boys, their hotels are being taken care of. Meanwhile, the girls are funding their own things. And you already know in the Challengers, you're not making any money. So I feel like they have the funds to do it.

Torrey Hawkins (50:33.509)
Go

Torrey Hawkins (50:37.339)
100%.

Angie Haynes (50:42.679)
make some bigger tournaments. Like we need some of those bigger challengers. there's, there's, we're not getting the points. So you're playing and that's another reason why they're playing like four tournaments a month because we're trying to rack up those points on top of getting money. I mean, how, how much is my ranking going to go up after winning a 15 K? I get like five points on that. Um, so I have to play a million of those and the schedule is just way too long.

is way too long and the tournaments are too hard to get into. One thing I really, really feel like somebody needs to do is put a cap on these higher players coming down to play challengers. Like I would go down to watch some tournaments in the tournament in Macon, I believe that's a 50K. One year I went down there, Hawk.

Torrey Hawkins (51:27.193)
you

Angie Haynes (51:38.039)
Teris Snyder was playing that it was like a WTA tournament there had to be the Skiavone was playing that this is a 50k now Ski you top 10 like I don't care that you dropped to 30 why are you playing why is she allowed to play this 50k so it was stuff like it's stuff like that that I see that these players don't have a chance to break through it is it is

Alvin Owusu (51:48.056)
You

Torrey Hawkins (51:55.586)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (52:01.337)
Isn't that crazy?

Alvin Owusu (52:02.38)
Well, it's Montpelier, it's Monte Carlo, and it's Macon. Those are the big M's. That's where people, those are the hot spots on the tour, you know?

Angie Haynes (52:07.287)
And then you look.

Torrey Hawkins (52:07.426)
No.

Torrey Hawkins (52:12.181)
Funny is that is quick small story Tara Snyder's dad was one of my first coaches back in which talking Yeah, Darrell Snyder. I grew up her she her her Brandon was no Brandon Tara and God was her brother's name. I'm looking at his face. I can't remember his first name, but he was my coach She was and Julie Stevens. I don't remember Julie Stevens Julie and Tara were were the two young girls

Angie Haynes (52:17.333)
No way!

Angie Haynes (52:34.881)
to the o-

Torrey Hawkins (52:38.647)
So the Stevens brothers are my age and obviously Tara's older brother. what's his name? can't remember his name. Yeah, the all, we're talking, I'm taking you back. Yes, sir, taking you back. That's a, but that's great stuff. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. And Alvin, you know, we, we said this when we were covering the Australian Open, right? We don't get enough of the perspective of the women's tour enough. That's one reason we wanted to have you on here as well, Ashley. In addition to being

Angie Haynes (52:39.095)
She was a beast.

Angie Haynes (52:43.595)
Man, you taking me all the way back too.

Torrey Hawkins (53:06.536)
Obviously you're in Atlanta now for several years, additionally in black condition, obviously of course you had some great tennis world that you grew up with. But the women's perspective to me is always under appreciated and under represented, especially my black female outfit standpoint. I am just happy to you say it. Is there enough being done now versus back when you played to help, and I know the diversity is kind of a tough word right now these days, but in general.

Do you think they're doing enough to celebrate the diversity enough to push it? And it's one thing to celebrate, it's another thing to continue to make sure that some of the players from other areas, I'm not even talking about this black, I'm talking around the world, that get a chance to play more. Are they doing enough? They can only do more. Are they doing enough compared to what they did back then? What are your thoughts on that?

Angie Haynes (53:57.055)
I really don't feel like it will ever be enough. I don't ever feel like it will be equal. It all boils down to the funding. This is very expensive sport. You know how much the average player is spending a year. Can you go with your coaches? Can you get to the tournaments? Can you live while you're on the tour? You're broke half of time, more than half of the time. Even if you're winning the challenges, you're not making...

Torrey Hawkins (54:20.8)
Yeah. Right. Right.

Angie Haynes (54:26.487)
enough. So yeah, it really boils down to that. They could definitely do more and not be picky choosy and play favorites on who you're going to pick out of the hat. Look for the talent. Just give everybody a chance instead of those that already have the privilege, whatever the race is.

Torrey Hawkins (54:42.037)
Go.

Torrey Hawkins (54:51.838)
Yeah. Right. Right.

Angie Haynes (54:55.093)
You already have the money and the skills. Why are we putting giving you more? So yeah, that's.

Torrey Hawkins (55:02.228)
It's a business. I get both sides of it. It is a business. got to put butts in it. As you said, entertainers. know, Fred told you that. My last question on the tour stuff. Let's take it forward. Who impresses you now and why?

Angie Haynes (55:18.421)
Now told you guys from the beginning, I love Pauline, man. And I'm gonna have to say her because she's doing things that she's never done. And she didn't let her past, what she didn't do in the past, stop her fight. That's what stands out with most of me. I remember hearing her stats going into women and like, hey, she never won a grass court match.

Torrey Hawkins (55:19.912)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (55:34.876)
Right.

Angie Haynes (55:48.575)
and she'd go ahead and bust that right on out. So I'm just super impressed with her mentality, her ability to make adjustments and stick with the plan and not live in the past. She really impresses me.

Torrey Hawkins (55:48.679)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (56:04.674)
I want to add on top of that while we're talking about the WTA tour. know, Tori and I did a little, you know, 2025 American women's preview at the beginning of this year. And the numbers were looking really good for the American women going into the Australian Open. And, you know, here we are in March and they're looking even better, right? We've got four U.S. women in the top 10. I don't know if that's happened since, you know, the late 90s. We've got...

Torrey Hawkins (56:27.121)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (56:32.91)
of six in the top 20, we're, something's going on. What is your take on the, you know, where American tennis is right now, and like, are we doing, we as a, you know, American tennis body, what are we doing well right now?

Angie Haynes (56:50.943)
I feel like, and you're talking about the women,

Alvin Owusu (56:54.55)
Yeah, let's talk about the women, because I think the men's, it's a slightly different story on that side.

Angie Haynes (56:59.989)
Yeah. I think the women are just really seeking to be more well-rounded in their styles. They're definitely getting stronger. I feel like even what they have going on, like we're adding some coaching in there. And I think they're taking like more leadership in their careers. I've been seeing so much more even like variety.

Alvin Owusu (57:24.974)
Hmm.

Angie Haynes (57:29.911)
on the women's side, felt like Venus and Serena, really.

have given us the push that like Serena for sure, even when she came back after her baby, like women are very just overall strong. So I think that was just a push for us. I really like where Cori's going, how she's getting so much stronger mentally. I feel like we mentally also gotten a lot stronger, the women in the US. I really appreciate how Keys,

You know, she's not really known to be a listener, I'll say that. And for her to take the advice of her coaches, of her team, trust her team, that makes a big difference. So at the end of the day, if all of them can stay coachable, I guess, we're gonna see a lot of success from our women.

Torrey Hawkins (58:14.319)
So.

Torrey Hawkins (58:19.715)
Cool.

Torrey Hawkins (58:27.326)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (58:28.11)
Hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (58:33.058)
as well sir.

Alvin Owusu (58:34.254)
I like it, I like it. You know, I think we have a lot left that we could cover, but that just means we're gonna have to have you come back again. Yeah, we're gonna leave a little teaser there, because I feel like we left some stories on scratch. I took some notes here and I'm like, you know what? That's another, that's a whole nother talk show right there. But you know, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for coming and hanging out with us for a little bit.

Angie Haynes (58:43.369)
okay.

Torrey Hawkins (58:44.303)
100%.

Angie Haynes (58:52.299)
Look!

Angie Haynes (58:59.201)
Thank you guys.

Torrey Hawkins (59:01.367)
Absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (59:01.869)
This is a breath of fresh air and it's good to get a lot of different protectives from people who have seen tennis from a lot of different sides. So again, thank you so much. And with that, I think we'll wrap up there. Angie, thank you. Tori, always a pleasure. BESA 3 Nation, we'll catch you on the next one.

Angie Haynes (59:12.343)
Thank you guys.