Ep. 29: Jermaine Jenkins - The Journey From Hitting Partner to National Coach

Alvin Owusu (00:01.519)
And welcome back to another edition of the best three podcasts. I'm Alvin as usual, and we are joined by Tori Hawkins. Tori, how are we doing this afternoon?

Torrey Hawkins (00:09.772)
I'm doing good Alvin. I'm Tory as usual. If you're gonna be Alvin as usual, let me know if you're gonna change it up on us.

Alvin Owusu (00:12.203)
Okay, fair enough, fair enough, fair enough. And we are joined today by a special guest, Jermaine Jenkins, former NCAA All-American at a Clemson University, currently works with USDA Player Development, has worked with some WTA stars that you may or may not have heard of, the Williams sisters, Naomi Osaka, Coco Gauff et cetera. Jermaine, how we doing brother?

Jermaine Jenkins (00:39.884)
Man, amazing. Thank you guys for having me. Yeah, honor to be here.

Alvin Owusu (00:44.009)
It's great to have you and we were kind of catching up beforehand. It's been quite some time since the three of us have all been in the same place at the same time, even seeing each other at the same time. it's fun to do these and fun to catch up. And it's also fun to have someone to talk to who's out there in the highest levels of the game right now experiencing some of the things that we end up seeing on television. So I think this should be a fun one.

Torrey Hawkins (01:11.188)
I want to say at the outset, Alvin, Jermaine has always been, and I say this with all respect to Jackie and to Jermaine, Jermaine's always been my favorite of the boys. I got to say it, Jackie don't hate on me and Jermaine, there's no disrespect, but I get spent the most time with Jermaine. And so we go way back and as a young coach, I look back fondly at some of our memories, Jay, I really do. you know, I was, I have been not only proud of a lot of your accomplishments, but just the

Alvin Owusu (01:20.261)
Hahaha

Torrey Hawkins (01:41.478)
the coach, the man, the father that you are, husband, that you are today. And man, it was, feels like was just yesterday you were playing scull in the finals of Southern, you know what I'm saying? At Rebsman Tennis Center in Little Rock, Arkansas, you know I mean? And then the following year, I want to say, did you play Bradley Hunter in the next one? Cause you were kind of a young senior, if I'm not mistaken. I'm bringing the bag, bro. I'm bringing the bag.

Jermaine Jenkins (02:00.302)
Woo tea you bringing back memories. It was Arkansas Bradley Hunter.

Alvin Owusu (02:03.595)
Good ol'

Torrey Hawkins (02:06.441)
Bradley Hunter, but you played Scho in the previous. I want to say you went back to back, if I'm not mistaken.

Jermaine Jenkins (02:11.948)
Yeah, maybe one of the 16s, the other one was 18s. But before we start, I'm gonna make sure I send this to Jackie and Jameer. You know what mean? So I'll make sure I personally, you know, text him this episode. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:19.807)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:26.835)
No doubt, no doubt. I'm Tory Hawkins and I approve this message. You know what saying?

Alvin Owusu (02:30.763)
I mean he even even Bradley Hunter will appreciate getting a little bit of airtime. I know he follows he follows the pod as well

Torrey Hawkins (02:34.921)
No doubt.

Jermaine Jenkins (02:35.438)
man, was some tight moments. I still remember that double bounce that I got to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you leave it to me, that changed everything. I thought I was on top of the world. I won the Southern.

Torrey Hawkins (02:39.888)
No doubt. yeah, yeah, that caught, and Bradley caught the ball. You know what I mean? I remember like it was yesterday, you know?

Torrey Hawkins (02:57.414)
Right, right. And the one that really got me was you and Sco. Sco went on to win, Sco went on to win Kalamazoo one year and I tell everybody Sco couldn't get out of his own state qualifier. I mean, he got beat by, he got beat by Colt, I want to say, in the semi. And then I want to say got beat by you in the three-four. I mean, fourth place at his own state qualifier.

Alvin Owusu (02:57.417)
Hehehe

Torrey Hawkins (03:24.343)
second place at his own Southern. I think that he went on to take third at Kalamazoo. But you're like, I remember telling kids the story and they're like, what do mean he took fourth in his qualifier? Well, you got to realize the other three players were all pretty good. And so I felt, always felt like as good as he got, we had such a good group of guys then, man. I mean, there was, there was no

free match you know what i mean there was no free match going through those years so anyway all that to say we don't have to go too too far down history you know memory lane but just to say you know you certainly you know you certainly your your compatriot robbie pool you know took an L to my main man Ant Lee you know in that tournament you know what i'm saying i mean that was a robbie was robbie was absolute money but kind of

Jermaine Jenkins (04:08.588)
to you man shout out and Lee what's up Robbie

Torrey Hawkins (04:12.498)
Kind of fast, kind of looked fast, my boy Ant. And you know what I mean? And so I remember like those tournaments, man. Buddy, if you were a seed, you literally had a target on your back. I mean, guys were trying to get to the next level, trying to get the next tournament. And buddy, you know, it was, it was the don't sleep tour for sure. I mean, so shout out to Ant and the Robbie for, you know, no doubt, just, just so, just so the listeners can appreciate the South back in those days, man, was just, it was high post, man. And you did not, you,

Alvin Owusu (04:31.701)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Jermaine Jenkins (04:31.849)
Thank you,

Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (04:41.618)
You got out of a match in two and a half hours with a close five and four and you were like, you know, I didn't have to go three. mean, the heat alone was going to get you. You know what I mean? Let alone.

Jermaine Jenkins (04:47.586)
Yes.

But I also felt like, T, that everybody, I felt like everybody had to play, you know what I mean? Nowadays, feel like, even though it could be a little bit more watered down with the different tournament structures or whatnot, but I mean, everybody had to play. It was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. If you couldn't get through your state, it didn't make sense to go on and try to do it on a national or international level at that time, just based on the tournament setup.

Torrey Hawkins (05:01.745)
Yup, yup, yup.

Torrey Hawkins (05:16.176)
Yep. 100 % had to play it. Your brother, giving shout out to Jackie. Jackie won the state qualifier, I want to say seven, eight years in a row. I think the only loss he took was in the 18s. And just to help people understand how the Jenkins name, how big the Jenkins name was. mean, it was, you know, obviously Sco did his thing, but you and Jermere were phenomenal. You know what mean? I think Jermere got to what?

One in the country, two in the world, ITF, if I'm not mistaken. back in the day. I I just, the whole family, obviously. And shout out to Jackie Sr. and to Brenda and your other brothers, you know, your sisters. So trust me, the whole family was just an iconic part of junior tennis. Flash going, catching us up to speed now, Jay. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing now with USTA. Tell us a little bit about, you know, your current role and what you enjoy about it. And, you know, in a sense, you know, maybe what you've...

what adjustments you're making from your previous role.

Jermaine Jenkins (06:15.456)
Yeah, so currently I'm working at the transitional space. I'm a USTA national coach on the women's side and the women's side has pretty much been my niche, you know, every sense I would say I stopped, you know, plan and, know, I started getting more into coaching. You know, I got the opportunity to work with, you know, Venus and pretty much travel with her for four to five years. And so, you know, I just, I got an opportunity and I just kind of ran with it. And so

Being around the women's game so much, it only made sense that when they moved the show to Orlando, I was already living here during the time. I would see Kathy Rinaldi and Jamea Jackson on the road all the time, just in trenches. Shout out to Jamea. mean, I would be at the tennis center from 6 AM to 9 PM last match. And you know.

Torrey Hawkins (06:57.423)
That's it. Yes, sir.

Alvin Owusu (06:57.673)
Hmm.

Jermaine Jenkins (07:07.662)
And, I always thought I was like, man, you know, I don't know if I want to do this. I mean, these days seem pretty long, you know, especially when you're working with minors, you know, because it's not only the job on court is the, you know, after the chaperoning, you know, you got to make sure they get dinner. You got to make sure it lights out. Then after all of that, you're on the phone with the parents, you know, explaining, you know.

Alvin Owusu (07:27.755)
So are you effectively traveling around at that point, almost like an academy would to different events?

Jermaine Jenkins (07:32.776)
I'm actually with, I'm with Venus at this time. So I would always run into, I think, Jamia, maybe during the Grand Slam, she's there. I think the Juniors start maybe like a week afterwards or something. And I would always see her come in, you know? And so I was like, man, like, you know, this girl here all day. But no, so I went from basically, after I was...

Alvin Owusu (07:36.159)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (07:41.087)
Gotcha.

Torrey Hawkins (07:42.637)
Yeah, that can make use of.

Alvin Owusu (07:44.021)
Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (07:58.51)
After I was done with the Venus, I got the opportunity to be a national coach. And so I came on board with USTA. I immediately hit the ground running. since hitting partner was kind of like my, my thing at the time, I had the opportunity to be the hitting partner for BJK. I think my first one was in Asheville. And so I come in the job, maybe second week thinking like, whoa, like this is amazing. Like I'm working with high level players, hitting with high level players.

you know, coaches asking me for input. So I kind of felt like I had a lot of skin in the game and I approached it with a lot of purpose. And then after that, I got the, you know, a text message asking if I wanted to be Osaka's coach, you know, I think she was coming off two grand slams at the time. And, you know, it was a heavy text because I'm like, whoa, you know.

Torrey Hawkins (08:30.826)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (08:52.319)
Like so how does that like, I mean that was like literally the first time it had been brought to you was like just a text message out of, more or less out of the blue, not like based off previous conversations or.

Jermaine Jenkins (09:01.238)
No, just to provide for the context. working with Venus and Serena, obviously, you're meeting other team members. So I think at the time Serena's physio, it was Serena's physio at the time. And then fast forward, she's no longer working for Serena. She moved on to work with Osaka. And so she sent me a text and like, hey, this is what's going down.

Alvin Owusu (09:11.155)
Sure, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (09:23.872)
Gotcha.

Torrey Hawkins (09:29.764)
Do you have any interest? Right. Sure.

Jermaine Jenkins (09:31.138)
Do you have any interest? And I think I messaged back like, hey, I'm pretty happy with what I'm doing, but look, I'll hear you guys out. So I took a meeting with her agent, think Stuart at the time, well Stuart's still her agent, our partner. Took a meeting with Stuart and I thought at the time it was just an offer that I couldn't refuse. And this is why we do what we do, to get at that level and to be able to have that kind of exposure and work with.

Alvin Owusu (09:32.255)
Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, okay.

Jermaine Jenkins (10:00.568)
that high level of a player. Now, I will say that, you know, when I got, when I was making the decision, you know, I went to like my SEAL Team Six, know, Jermere, you know, talked to my parents, you know, went to my team and, you know, was like, guys, like, what do you think, you know? And so they really helped me during that time and supported me because I was pretty comfortable with what I was doing, you know? And so they kind of pushed me in that uncomfort level and...

Torrey Hawkins (10:01.983)
percent.

Jermaine Jenkins (10:28.526)
Mind you, that was really my first coaching role on like, I would say the professional tour. it wasn't like I was working with a girl 300, got her into the top 100. I started at the top.

Alvin Owusu (10:33.833)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (10:39.431)
Yeah. Right.

Alvin Owusu (10:41.683)
Right, so like, you know, I've seen a lot of, you know, especially on the WTA tour, a lot of hitting partners kind of transition into, you know, being the head coach of the team. And so I'm kind of curious, it's like, is that generally the goal or is that, you know, I assume that's the goal, but then also like, what are kind of the dynamics within a team structure when you get to the top of the game where you have a head coach and a...

and a physio and a hitting partner and some people bring in like a quote unquote super coach. Like how does that actually work out in practice?

Jermaine Jenkins (11:17.71)
I guess to answer your question about the goal, I'm not sure if it was the goal for me because I didn't have any kind of blueprint of how I would navigate to being a coach. The opportunity was there and I had to take it. But generally speaking, I think if you were maybe a lower level player, maybe you weren't one of the top players on the ATP tour, then I think that's kind of a great starting point for you to get in there as a hitting partner.

you know, get your feet wet, you learn, you're kind of the two man, right? You're the coach's assistant. Maybe sometimes, you know, you're the scout, you know, you're the coach's ear sometimes, you know, or you're player's ear. But, you know, there's a really important role and I think I took pride in being the best two man that I could be, you know? I think David Witt was coaching Venus at the time, so learned a lot from him, learned a lot from V, you know, just how she went about things.

Torrey Hawkins (12:00.497)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (12:15.888)
Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (12:16.661)
And so that was kind of my start of my journey. I'm not sure if I answered your question. Okay.

Alvin Owusu (12:21.771)
No, you did, you did. And then I just kind of, I guess more specifically like then within the team confines when you have these different, different people around the player, specifically on court, like what does that, how did your situation with V vary from like when you became the Naomi's coach and she had a, does she have a hitting partner at that time as well?

Jermaine Jenkins (12:27.096)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (12:32.347)
Okay.

Jermaine Jenkins (12:42.378)
Yeah, so I think there was a huge contrast between Venus and Naomi. I think Venus was at the stage in her career where she knew what she needed exactly. So the entourage is a lot smaller and it matches her personality. So I think for her was a coach, hitting partner, and maybe her assistant at the time.

Alvin Owusu (12:55.175)
Right, yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (13:08.204)
So very small team. Whereas with Osaka, you know, I think, you know, if you had to think about buckets, you know, we had a physio trainer. And at the time I was the hidden partner in coach, you know, and what you'll find on the WTA sometimes is the girls tend to like the hit with the hidden partner a lot, you know. I personally think they should hit with other girls. You know, I think most of the time when you're at home, of course, do your work with your hidden partner, but.

you kind of need to get in there, you know, and like fill a girl, fill that other girl's ball, you know, play, you know, can do the tournaments. It's about like, you know, basically you gotta play points, you know, like, you know, it's like everything's kind of like already worked out, you know, to the point where, you know, you're not really, you know, yes, at a grand slam, you're still, you know, like you're running a different race there. You're more specific and you're trying to like do everything perfect there, but.

Alvin Owusu (13:42.174)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (13:47.747)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (14:00.91)
Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (14:03.82)
You know, I feel like some of the other tournaments, it's okay to hit with some of the other girls, you know.

Torrey Hawkins (14:08.164)
Yeah, wouldn't you say Jermaine and I noticed this when I was out there with a player that got top 50 trained with us for a long time in my academy. I felt like they were always looking to play with the guys and only in a last resort where they hit with one of the other girls that they both needed some point play where the guys are always looking to hit with each other. I mean, you'll go to the board there at the opening. You'll see you'll see five, six, seven guys have looking, you know what I mean for for a hit, you know, at

Jermaine Jenkins (14:23.308)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (14:37.38)
10 o'clock, you know what mean? And you're almost happy to get a fresh stick out there to hit some balls with. so I don't know if that's something that you, is that still the case? This was some years ago when I was on the tour, but is it still kind of the, it seemed like that was just kind of the way it was. The girls always want to hit with the guys. The guys love hitting and the guys weren't too, unless they were younger or juniors, they weren't too keen on hitting with lot of the ladies. Obviously, serves weren't as big and other things, but seemed like the.

It was almost weird how much the guys preferred it with each other more than anything else. And the girls were more hit my coach. No, I'm good. I got my coach. I'm here. Almost this nice little bubble. You know what I mean? That they like to kind of protect themselves. And is that what you what you saw?

Jermaine Jenkins (15:20.842)
Yeah, so I think with the guys, like you said, a hit is a hit, right? I think with the girls now, you're starting to see a lot more girls are hitting with other girls. get it. We need to scrimmage, see different game styles, points. I think that was an era in tennis. When you think about Venus, Serena, Sharapova, I think they were creating that unfamiliarity, right? It was a form of...

Torrey Hawkins (15:31.894)
Good. Good.

Jermaine Jenkins (15:50.198)
intimidation I thought, you know. So it's like, this is our team. When we come, we're coming to do business. We're not coming here to socialize, be friends. You know, I thought, I think back then it was more of a sense of like, okay, like we don't want you to know anything that's going on with our operation. You know, we're here, what we need to do, you know. Whereas now the girls are way more open to hitting with each other, you know. So it's changed a lot, I would say.

Torrey Hawkins (15:58.031)
I, Ry.

Torrey Hawkins (16:05.473)
Right. Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (16:17.707)
Yeah, I remember my first time going to the Miami Open, was like, I was going to go out to the practice courts and I was like, Oh, I want to go watch, go watch Serena hit. And they're like, Oh, no, no, no, no. She's, she's, she's done before the gates open. Like she gets to work out in early and then gets out of there. Like no one's, no one's coming to her practice. So that's a, that's cool to hear that. It's like, that's always kind of been the case with her.

Jermaine Jenkins (16:37.366)
Yeah, and yeah, she was different, You know, like, you know, she has a night match. She may be there at 7 a.m. in the morning, you know, just working out some things, getting her working early, no distractions, get in, get out, you know? So, yeah, I mean, you know, everyone goes about it differently, you know?

Torrey Hawkins (16:54.112)
Right. Each has their own. They know to your point with Venus she knew what she needed, you know, and I thought that was a great point. I was at the open for, I don't know, five, six years in a row coaching different players. But obviously, Scow primarily during that time. And Jay, I booked the earliest car possible. had the guy. I told the guy that night before, look, we want to get there early, early, right? I we can't get a car until eight. I said, can you pick us up at 730, you know, from the Grand Hyatt? He goes, I got you. We were there. We hit.

Jermaine Jenkins (16:58.541)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:23.859)
We hit the place at eight. I mean, we were there at eight, walking in. They hadn't even set up the dogs and the security, right? There were balls around. There was the far court, the old P1 through five. She was on the far end. I think that was P1 on the corner. She had been there for an hour and a half. I cannot beat her to the courts. I'm like, it's just not possible. It's like she slipped the doorman a hundo.

Jermaine Jenkins (17:43.106)
Yes. Yes.

Jermaine Jenkins (17:53.282)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:53.801)
Got you. I'll be here five. mean, was just...

Jermaine Jenkins (17:55.779)
And that's been a lot because you know that New York traffic, know, just the whole deal just to get there, you know, and back. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:59.497)
That's what I'm saying. mean, traffic alone. Traffic alone. We couldn't have got there any sooner. Obviously, she had her own car. We were waiting on transportation, right? Different level of that. But I'm just telling you, there wasn't a day where she wasn't the first person on the court. Not one day. Six years, I guarantee you, I tried six of the seven, eight days I was there. Never beat her to the court one time. Not one time. So just...

Jermaine Jenkins (18:25.87)
Yeah. And also too, like, you know, like even if like you're a lower level player, you know, let's just say you want to get there early too, so that you could get the extra work in because there's, you know, we know that 10 o'clock slot, 11 o'clock slot is going to be the most popular, you know, so you're going to get limited hidden. And then another thing is if you want to sneak on stadium, you know, like you got to get there super early, you know, maybe, you know, get some stadium time. Say you're the young American that's playing against like the higher seed or whatnot. So.

Torrey Hawkins (18:38.524)
Yeah, it's packed.

Torrey Hawkins (18:44.37)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (18:51.708)
Yep. Yep.

Jermaine Jenkins (18:54.752)
Yeah, so I think it's really, it's a lot of good in showing up early.

Torrey Hawkins (18:58.524)
Yep, 100%.

Alvin Owusu (18:59.253)
You know, Jay, I wanna kinda switch topics just a little bit here. Like kind of going back to your time, you know, working with Venus, like, and now moving kind of all the way to present day where you're working with, you know, could be our top, our top US women's prospects to doing some work with Billie Jean King Cup team. What are some of the changes that you've seen over the last, let's call it years, out on the women's tour specifically? Like, you know, can you talk about?

what kind of the factors of success like look like, how are they different now versus then?

Jermaine Jenkins (19:36.684)
Yeah, I would say number one, what I notice is like the investment that the players are making in their games and their teams. I think it's catching up. Like number one, I would say the fitness, right? You know, the investments that the players are making, you know, like being fitter, you know, there was a time where, you know, you could look around and like it, like if you wanted to be top hundred, you know, it's not like putting any extra work.

Torrey Hawkins (20:03.482)
Excuse me. Right.

Jermaine Jenkins (20:05.602)
to do that, you know? So I would say they're making that investment there. And then just the extended team, you know? Like I think if you have the luxury to get a physio, you know, early in your career, you know, who knows that could save, you know, maybe five to 10 years, could, you know, or give you that extra two years, you know, in your career as you get to an older player, you know? So I think that's kind of new.

And then I know when I was working with V, she did a lot of her fitness on court. She just believed in doing fitness on court, you know, and maybe, you know, very like maybe five or 10 % off the court. And so you're starting to see a little bit more of like a priority to do the off court stuff, like getting in the gym or whatever, you know, you do. So there's a huge priority there that I see. And then another thing too is this may be a little bit off topic, but you know,

You talk about the college space, you're starting to see more girls in college. It's becoming a legit avenue, you know, whereas, you know, and it's got a lot of room to grow still, but I mean, it was kind of like doomsday if you go to college, you know. But yeah, you start, definitely seeing more of like, you know, girls and the college coaches, credit to them, they're doing a great job of like hosting some pro level tournaments, you know, and.

Alvin Owusu (21:16.925)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (21:17.144)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (21:26.5)
Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (21:28.94)
and giving their players that exposure, you know, so.

Torrey Hawkins (21:31.194)
And Jay, if I can cut in and getting the players better, right? I mean, I think that's where it comes down to. And you had, there's a lot younger, not the younger is the recipe, but there's a lot more of an influx of younger coaches like yourself that are in the college trenches now that are developing the players. I always felt back in the day, you know, especially the, you know, later eighties, early nineties, back in my time and obviously going through and even the later nineties, early two thousands.

Jermaine Jenkins (21:35.529)
Even the players better, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (22:00.836)
College coaches were teaching different game. They were teaching make balls, were teaching depth, were teaching don't take a lot of risks, get that serve in there, grind, keep it court. They weren't teaching game development. And so unfortunately well deserved, right? You were not getting better at a higher level because of college, because that was the mentality. They wanted you to win, right? At that point, you were having to change in some ways who you were as a player.

You almost sacrifice your game development or your identity who you were as a player to fit that coach's mold and that coach's win percentage a little bit. I feel like now the players are going to college getting better. You know what I mean? I mean, Emma got better at school. You know what I mean? I know my girl McCartney Kessler. mean, who else was a pretty good, oh, Payton Sturrs. My girl, the one through UCLA, big serve.

Jermaine Jenkins (22:52.398)
8 stars.

Alvin Owusu (22:54.421)
pain.

Jermaine Jenkins (22:57.528)
Lady.

Torrey Hawkins (22:58.455)
Jen Brady. Jen Brady got way better in college. mean, she went, think somebody told me she, I want to say Stella said they were playing, she was playing like five, six when she first got there. Not because she couldn't win, but because her game was just a little erratic. And by the time it ended, she was, ended up playing one, worked herself into a nice spot, worked on her game, kept fighting, but didn't change her game, got better at her game and just got more consistent with that big game, which is hard to do, right? Obviously all the way to the finals of the US Open. So I say it to say, just really neat to see the college

Alvin Owusu (22:58.965)
Jen Brady.

Jermaine Jenkins (23:07.544)
Yeah. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (23:28.287)
ranks get better. They didn't default to college, right? They went to college as a result of the results were getting there. So that's one thing I want to shout out to all the some of those players, a lot of the college coaches that are doing a lot, a lot of good that are really putting the proof in the pudding, so to speak to me.

Alvin Owusu (23:46.197)
So Jay, do you get a chance? Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead, go ahead.

Jermaine Jenkins (23:46.214)
Yeah, I mean go ahead I Think you know also been at USTA I think Matt Clore He helped us out with like a pathway study that just basically shows You know some of those girls you name like how many pro level tournaments that they play during college and from If my memory serves me correct, I don't believe Emma played many pro level tournaments or freshman year, but you know

Torrey Hawkins (24:05.376)
Alright.

Torrey Hawkins (24:13.003)
Mm-hmm.

Jermaine Jenkins (24:14.958)
we kind of studied the sweet spot. If you could play, you know, seven to 10 pro level tournaments while you're in college, let's just say, you know, obviously you're going to play the bulk of your pro level tournaments during the summer, you know, because that's when, you know, school is out, you know, you should be able to play. But if you can get like, you know, somewhere between, you know, that seven to 10 pro level tournaments, then you're getting like that level of exposure of where now you're coming back to play some of your peers and you're not like,

Torrey Hawkins (24:28.246)
Right.

Right.

Torrey Hawkins (24:40.693)
Bye.

Jermaine Jenkins (24:44.236)
you know, nervous because you're playing the girl at, you know, Texas as number one or, you know, nothing against Texas, but you know, you're not.

Torrey Hawkins (24:47.861)
Sir.

Yeah, yeah. Pay my hold against you, see what I'm

Alvin Owusu (24:53.323)
Let me ask you this though, like since within your role since you're working with American girls between like 15 and 21, I assume sometimes you'll see someone go through juniors and then go to college and then maybe you get more time with them while they're in between sessions. What is the relationship right now between the USTA and the, let's say, NCAA teams, the schools and the coaches?

Do you guys get a chance to work together or is that something you're reaching out for or the or vice versa?

Jermaine Jenkins (25:27.116)
I think that, you know, I've coached a few girls who've gone off to play college and I think it was always like, okay, let me reach out on a personal note. Hey, I'm handing, you know, or if I'm that USDA coach, I'm working with that player who decided to go to college. Hey, look, you know, this is what some of her areas of focus we've been working on. Here's a development plan. You know, hey, you know, when she's fit, you know, then she's gonna do fine, you know, hey.

You know, you're telling them, you know, it's more of on a personal level. Now I feel like, you know, where the USTA and NCAA, formalized it now, right? Like, we have more of our partnership now. But with the, well, I believe now they have the tournament, you know, where I think they take the top eight players. We're still getting more information on that, you know? So, and I believe it's closer to like the US Open.

Alvin Owusu (26:05.503)
Yeah, what does that look like?

Alvin Owusu (26:13.642)
right.

Jermaine Jenkins (26:20.588)
tournament, you know, because I think in the past, you know, it was like, you win the NCAAs, but then, you know, you wait like, you know, months before you play, know, I guess get the US wild card. Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (26:30.823)
Yeah, yeah. It's almost two peaks in the J. It's almost you got a May peak early May at that and then you got a early September, you know, slash late August peak. you know, most players don't period the periodization doesn't allow for two peaks in that difference of time, let alone you got to take your peak into let's face it, you know, French and Wembe, you know what I mean, which is not the hardcore. You could spend the last several months playing. So that's actually great planning on on their part.

Jermaine Jenkins (26:36.93)
Yes.

Right.

Jermaine Jenkins (26:57.422)
Yes. And then I think another thing too, like with college, I mean, there's so many more opportunities now. Like if they had the accelerator program, you know, back when, back when I was playing, you know, at least like on a Tuesday at practice, you know, I'd be like, all right, man, I've got six pro level tournaments to play. Like, let me do a few extra reps. Not that I needed the motivation, but it would have been nice, you know, just to have that opportunity, you know, to be able to like play more pro level tournaments because I went to college.

like thinking like, okay, like, you know, at Clemson, they groomed pros in the past, you know, okay, I want a coach that's nuts and that's, you know, that wants to, you know, develop pro players. But, you know, I just felt like I never, we didn't have much time to play pro level tournaments in college. So we weren't getting that exposure, you know, if a guy came with a big serve, you know, six, six, three, six, six, you know.

Torrey Hawkins (27:31.698)
Dunno.

Torrey Hawkins (27:44.017)
Bye.

Jermaine Jenkins (27:51.564)
It's like, man, you're not seeing that every day, you know? Like I think in Europe, you're seeing that every day. It's a 25K or whatever tournament almost every week.

Torrey Hawkins (27:53.935)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (27:59.055)
Yeah, yeah. Jay on a side note, you and.

also played at Clemson. I just forgot his name. I'm having a scene moment here. Coach at South Carolina.

Jermaine Jenkins (28:18.414)
That's South Carolina, current code.

Torrey Hawkins (28:19.758)
He's current coach been there for a minute. His dad coach Mackerel. can't believe I'm forgetting his name. Thank you, Josh. How far off that you and Josh, how far off are you guys playing wise from each other? he, I know he was already gone, he was he, is he, is he several years? Was it a couple of years? Okay. I was trying, I was trying to figure out, yeah. Cause I think he was closer to the Haley's age group. thought, but I thought maybe he was on the younger side of that. I was just, it was just a

Jermaine Jenkins (28:24.108)
Is it got you? Josh?

Jermaine Jenkins (28:30.7)
Yeah, we are the significant people.

Jermaine Jenkins (28:35.79)
I think it was a significant gap, T-Hawk. it was a gap. a little more ahead of me. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (28:47.944)
random question. just remember you said Clemson. I'm like, because I think that was the end of Creasy's era. And I think you were in there toward the beginning of McEwen. Do I have my years right?

Jermaine Jenkins (28:53.76)
Mm-hmm.

Jermaine Jenkins (28:59.63)
Yeah, I think I had two to three years with Creasy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. was, McKeown was the assistant at the time.

Torrey Hawkins (29:03.076)
You had a couple years with Chuck. Got it. Both Chucks, but you had both of them. Right, right, right. And then it came and took over. That's what I forgot. I forgot that overlap. was trying to figure, you mentioned the crazy hollering. I'm sure you had a little bit of McEwen Creasy hollering at you back in the day. mean, that was all. Give us a favorite Chuck Creasy story if you can.

Jermaine Jenkins (29:25.974)
Wow, a favorite. I don't know if I have a favorite, but I will say one story. I think that we were in the middle after doubles, you you played the doubles and then after the doubles point, you go back to the locker room, you know, whether you won or lost, you know, that's the time to right kind of regroup and kind of talk about, you know, strategy game plan or whatever. I think we had lost the doubles point. I can't forget who we were playing. Can't remember.

So we're in the locker room and there was like, maybe the guy was like a local, but Coach Creasy is in the middle of like one of his speeches, like one of his like, you know, motivational speeches where he's just getting us ready to go out there and give blood. Some guy rose in the locker room. I don't know how he got in, but he got in the locker room and he was like, hey, I think he asked something along the lines of like, you guys still using the courts out here?

Torrey Hawkins (30:09.976)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (30:21.48)
Hahaha

Jermaine Jenkins (30:24.366)
I remember crazy of a chair just like thought it was like this is like Bill Billachak given a Given a speech to Tom Brady or meeting with his team. Would you walk in the middle of like his speech in his locker room? And like for guy, know, like the guy had no idea he had no clue so That was just one of the Chuck Creasy like I mean everything he did he did it with passion, you know

Alvin Owusu (30:42.821)
my goodness.

Torrey Hawkins (30:53.038)
100%.

Jermaine Jenkins (30:53.954)
You know, I obviously didn't see it then. We clashed a lot. You know, I knew how to press his buttons. He knew how to press mine. But, you know, when you look back, you're like, man, like, you know, the guy cares so much, you know.

Torrey Hawkins (31:00.597)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (31:05.196)
Yeah, yeah. That leads to my next question. I'm gonna steal one from Alan real quick. Jay, you're what? 40 now, give or take, right? You know what I'm saying? 40 years young. Good for you, brother. You got 30? Let's even say, know, whatever increments you wanna break it into. I'm gonna say 33 to 40, right? The last seven years. Let's just say 26 to 32, give or take.

Jermaine Jenkins (31:14.936)
Hallelujah, 40.

Torrey Hawkins (31:33.324)
Tell me the transition, the maturity of things that you prioritize more or appreciate more now in this latter seven, as you did in the first seven. And just in general, things you've seen change from a coaching perspective where they may not have been as big of a deal then, they're a huge deal to you now, or maybe you're making it a more of a priority.

both your maturation as well as what you deem important and the shifting of the priorities, so to speak. How would you break that down?

Jermaine Jenkins (32:11.662)
Man, 26 to 32 was just like, still had this fire of like, man, like I know that's still something inside of me. I still know I have more to give because I feel like I missed a void of like not playing on the Pro Tour, you know? So you channel that somewhere, you you channel that in your workouts, in the gym, you channel that like in every lesson that you teach, you know, you still want to hit a lot. So between 26 and 32, I mean, that was that...

Torrey Hawkins (32:27.829)
Right. Yourself. Right. Right.

Jermaine Jenkins (32:40.354)
That's what that was for me. Like I still have something to prove here. Like I've got more in the tank. I'm not ready to hang it up. Which led into, you know, me being the hidden partner for one of the Williams, you know, you know, you just, stay ready. Opportunity presents itself, you know. And then, you know, what, what would you say? You said 32 until now.

Torrey Hawkins (33:05.163)
33 to now, yeah, give or take.

Jermaine Jenkins (33:06.542)
33 into now, you know, at the beginning of that, you know, you're 33, you know, you're like traveling the world. You're like doing the things that like you thought that, okay, I was going to be a pro. No, I'm not a pro, but I still as a consolation, I'm still kind of in the fire. You know, I still got skin in the game. I'm hitting on Louis Armstrong, Arthur Ashe. I'm in Taiwan. I'm traveling the world and like, you know, you still

You're like, I mean, it's surreal to you and you're working with, you know, obviously Venus Williams, you you pinch yourself in the morning, like, whoa, I'm living with Venus Williams and I'm waking up in the morning, she's drinking a green juice, we're going out to practice, you know, and you get to experience that every day. And then by year, you know, four or five, you know, you've been to Australia a few times, you know, and then you kind of lose it a little bit because you're like, man, like, okay, you know, I've done this now, what are we doing here, right?

Torrey Hawkins (33:42.707)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (33:49.95)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (34:04.094)
Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (34:04.462)
Um, and then I think once I started, you know, expanding my family, that perspective obviously changed, you know, I want less time on the road, you know, but still make the best impact that, you know, I can make while at home. So now I'm leveraging my experience, you know, so when I'm in the transitional space, it's kind of refreshing when you look at a 15, 16, 17 year old girl, you know, who kind of look at you with.

Torrey Hawkins (34:14.184)
Right.

Jermaine Jenkins (34:31.598)
wide green eyes and was like, you know, it was like really? Whereas sometimes if you are working with a pro or, or, you know, somewhere of a higher stature, been on the, been at the game for a while, maybe you're not making that much of an impact, you know, because, you know, like when I was with Osaka, she had won two grand slams, you know, like, what am going to tell you here? Hey, keep doing what you're doing, you know?

Torrey Hawkins (34:51.119)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (34:56.45)
So I think, yeah, think sitting here, have, feel like I have more wisdom and more knowledge to give a younger player, you know, who's coming to the ranks, you know, having like, and then, you know, you get, I got to the point as a hidden partner where, know, Torrey, I remember this, you said one thing to me, you know, during practice, you were like, hey, know, Michael Jordan walked in the room, would you want to shoot an air ball in front of Jordan? You know, and I think you and I always connected with the basketball. You always had good analogies.

Torrey Hawkins (35:20.337)
Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (35:26.166)
And I think that stuck with me a lot. You know, sorry, I think the dad brain is coming in a little bit here. I had a point that I was trying to make. Having said that.

Alvin Owusu (35:35.103)
Hehehehehe

Torrey Hawkins (35:35.539)
Torrey Hawkins (35:43.984)
The basketball always was you and our, I felt, our co-space. You know, we both love basketball. I think we always, we kind of view tennis through basketball lenses sometimes, you know what mean? And so was always trying to get your attention, you know, as an athlete, as well as as a competitor to know, hey, I did the same thing, you know what I mean? So I'm hoping to jog your memory on it, you know I'm saying?

Jermaine Jenkins (36:05.774)
You kind of brought me back there. So, you know, when I, when I approach, you know, the opportunity like with V, you know, I'd never been in this space of a hidden partner. I just knew I didn't want to mess up. You know, that's the mindset of a hidden partner, right? Make every ball, you know, do, do more than what you're asked to do. And so I approached that, you know, kind of with that mentality, which, you know, went a long way, which kind of took me into more of my coaching career. I still, you know,

before I hit the court, I'm not hitting as much anymore, but I'm like, I'm still doing a warmup or a little bit of something, you know, like I did as a player or a hitting partner, you know.

Torrey Hawkins (36:40.057)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (36:45.285)
And I like that you say that. I remember seeing a story on Howie Long with Hall of Fame linebacker with the Raiders and his first Pro Bowl, he didn't think he deserved to be there, right? He still felt like they must have made a mistake. Maybe somebody got hurt and they got me. So he was still trying to work harder even in the game. The next season, he kept trying to work harder like, nah, I'm not that level yet. Like he kept working.

What you're saying me reminds me a lot of what was said. Five, I think five years in, some guy told him, hey man, quit telling yourself you don't deserve to be here. You've been here five years in a row. You know what I mean? deserve to And it's what he said. And he said, and I wouldn't have it any other way, he says, I take that same approach to the broadcast booth. I take that same approach if I were to be coaching. And I think to my point, and I love Howie Long,

Jermaine Jenkins (37:24.898)
Right. But it's like the insecurities drive you though, you know?

Alvin Owusu (37:31.432)
Right, yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (37:36.789)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (37:44.631)
But the whole point of it was, I see a lot of that in what you're saying. You never stop that. That's what drove you as a player, Jay. That's what drove you as a hitting coach, obviously as a primary coach, even now as you're working with the transition space. That to me is a personal quality. Whatever the fuel, right? Whatever the reason, you know, the result was extra. And I think that's a great thing to look back on and, you know,

had situations, you know, we're gonna say everything from finances to, you know, to the right coaching team, to the right other, at an earlier age, Jermaine would have been at that level. And I tell everybody this, you know, I've had the privilege of working with you and several of the high level players. Each of you taught me something. Each of you, I think the best kids always teach the coach something. You know what mean? And I always, I've always felt that way. And I certainly feel that way about you and many others, obviously it was.

Jermaine Jenkins (38:23.458)
Yeah, for sure.

Jermaine Jenkins (38:38.125)
sure.

Torrey Hawkins (38:43.427)
It's funny when Bobby was on our episode, I can't tell you the amount of things I learned from Bobby's, his grit, you know what mean? I can't tell you the things that Brian would say to me as a young player, but Haley was, I'm like.

I never even thought of that. I never even thought of that. Let alone practice it. These are things that I reflect on now to the point I feel like that extra from you that going... Jermaine, there was a match you played. Easter Bowl. I'm going to take you back on this one, Jay. You were playing, I can't remember if it was Luke or Clancy Shields. Jermaine, those, and now the minute I know, Jermaine used to have, he was always so wound up, he used to have some cramping issues from some matches.

Jermaine Jenkins (39:27.566)
Crap.

Torrey Hawkins (39:27.881)
Right? But when I tell you the brother was cramping up, we're in the showers, shower areas in at Palm Springs. It was before they moved lot of these to Indian Wells, whatever. Jay was cramping. When I tell you cramping Alvin, I mean, I'm seeing his muscles twitch. I mean, I'm thinking he's got to pull out. Jay, I don't know if you down some pickle juice, Jermaine. I don't know what you did to get, but you did something. And I'm telling you within the

first game he got moving and I remember he used to have this nice loud breathe before he was hitting the ball and he ran around when I tell you it was like it was add out in the first game and Jay had a big inside out nice backhand but his inside was unreal he ran around a ball he was on one of the stated courts on the bigger courts there at Palm Springs ran around a ball probably about six feet wide of the alley all right

Jermaine Jenkins (40:02.606)
Glory to

Torrey Hawkins (40:24.232)
Ran around this ball so fast, turned on it. I'm thinking, and me and Luke both are probably thinking he's got to go cross court. They ripped this ball inside in, strong, inside in, outside the out. I said, I'm 100 % risked. And I'm like.

Jermaine Jenkins (40:31.711)
You

Alvin Owusu (40:34.207)
Hey now.

Jermaine Jenkins (40:38.082)
Took all the risk.

Torrey Hawkins (40:45.759)
Let's go Jake. You don't coach that. You know what I'm saying? Who would ever coach that to hit that ball outside? And I just said to myself, 10 minutes ago, this brother was cramping up in the locker room. And so I say that to say there's championship material there and to whatever level you take it to, right? You know, I could see that being something. I feel like you mentioned insecurity, you know, put that part to bed.

Alvin Owusu (40:46.453)
Double down, baby, double down.

Torrey Hawkins (41:14.217)
but left the whole part, how long, right? You've been there. You've been there now, brother. You've been there a decade or more. You know what I mean?

Alvin Owusu (41:20.715)
Let me ask this though from a championship material standpoint, Jay, from your perspective, you've worked with the highest levels of junior level players or junior players at the highest level and then professional players at the highest level. What would you say would be kind of the biggest separators between the best at any given level and the rest? And has that changed, has your perspective on that changed much in the last, let's say, 10 years?

Jermaine Jenkins (41:51.31)
Yeah, I think when you're talking about high level, I think at any space, you know, what I've learned again from being with like Venus and some of the top, like I think you're only as good as your routine, you know, you know, and every different, every player has kind of their own routine. You know, it's like, you know, when I was with V, if I'm standing in the corner and if she could do like 10 rounds of like one and one, 10 balls, one and one, you know, 10 rounds of that.

Like with good depth, you know, not missing. She kind of knew she was ready like to, you know what I mean? Take the serve out of it. You know, like, you know, she kind of knew she was ready. It could be different from any, any player, but I think your routine kind of like that. That's what separates you from a high level player. I think if you go in different categories, if you're talking about a junior, maybe you have more exposure, you know, and you're able to.

kind of disguise some of your deficiencies at the junior level because like maybe you've been to more tournaments, you've got a higher match count, you know, so you've kind of been in the moment a little bit more. You know, I think when you're talking about maybe a college level player, what separates at that level, I kind of put junior and college in the same space because they're kind of like, kind of together. I think things in college,

I think it helps when you have a big crowd kind of having, you know, that kind of helps you with Dylan on the tour. But when you become a pro, what separates you is you got to have a superpower and you've got to have a weapon, you know, like something's got to separate you from the rest of the pack. And, you know, you look at some of these players, they all have have different strengths, you know, like if you Cocoa Golf, you're not going to get tired. You got a massive serve. You can't get a ball past you. If you're playing in slow conditions, good luck, you know, you know.

You look at Emma Navarro, like the grip, know, like she's so scrappy, know. Sabalinka, you're like, will bite your face off, you know, it can hit you off the court, you know, and she's continued to invest and get better. You know, she's working on her game, Madison Keys, but all these players have like her average, Madison Keys, her average rally ball is like, you know, faster than, you know, some of the men sometimes. So, you know,

Torrey Hawkins (43:46.97)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (43:58.447)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (44:11.465)
No.

Jermaine Jenkins (44:12.904)
Everybody has a superpower, you know, at that level. And then I would say number two at the pro level, I think there's a balance between, you know, being capable of having the shots, but then performing, right? You know, I think performing is different than like playing. And I think also, you know, Venus taught me a lot about, you know, wow, like this is not the same person that I was just practicing with. You know, this is a different person on this stage, you know, like, you know, knew how to like perform.

Torrey Hawkins (44:15.706)
you

Torrey Hawkins (44:35.492)
Right.

All right.

Jermaine Jenkins (44:40.364)
You know, and then playing the score, sir, you like you learn all of those things too, you know, those experiences.

Torrey Hawkins (44:43.3)
Right.

You

Alvin Owusu (44:46.815)
Okay, mentioned, yeah, no, that was good, that was great. You mentioned, kinda jogged my memory about something you mentioned earlier about the differences and like the strength and conditioning component about like earlier in your time with Venus, she was doing, know, primarily, the majority of her work was done on court. And you say now that the women are doing a lot more in the gym. And that just kinda got me, like today, this morning, I was reading a piece.

kind of highlighting Richard Langford and his impact on coming over from football over to tennis and how he's really been able to help, like Madison, you mentioned, and then Ben on the men's side. What would you say in that specific space, the off-court space, has really been most impactful for the women at the top of the game?

Torrey Hawkins (45:16.698)
and

Jermaine Jenkins (45:37.442)
Wow, I think there's a certain standard that's come into play where you see, on the women's side now, they're using their off seasons to do different things, to do cross sports, cross training. I think there's just an openness of trying different things. If you look at some of the players now, it's like,

like these are some of these players are athletes first who happen to be really good at tennis, know, know, versus I think you could take someone with good tennis skills, you know, but you know, if they're not an athlete or, know, if they're not willing to move like side to side, you know, you're not gonna, you know, eventually you can find a foothold, you know, and beat a person, you know, cause I think, I think the game is kind of evolved. You had, there was like hitters.

Torrey Hawkins (46:07.767)
Bye.

Alvin Owusu (46:07.797)
Hmm.

Jermaine Jenkins (46:31.692)
and then you have movers, you know? Then you have hitters and movers, you know?

Torrey Hawkins (46:33.173)
Yeah. Right, right. They morphed, haven't they? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (46:35.091)
Right.

Jermaine Jenkins (46:38.462)
Right. You know, so I think, yeah, I mean, I don't know behind everyone, you know, some of the players are like, kind of like, we don't want to let you know what we're doing, what's making the difference, but you think about the teams, right? I think the teams are making the difference, you know, a trainer can make or break you, you know, like a good, like a great trainer, they're going to help you grow physically and mentally, you know, you know, they're spending maybe majority of the time with you outside of, you know, being on the court.

You know, you look at Ega, I guess she has a mental person, you know, that looks like that's given her that edge, you know, at least for a while it was. So I think also too, the men's model where they're adding this like second, third coach, you know, and I'll be honest with you as a coach, I think that's the best thing ever because I mean, I get tired of listening to me sometimes. So I know the player gets tired of listening to me. So you can have someone travel with you, you know,

Alvin Owusu (47:23.904)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (47:28.798)
really?

Torrey Hawkins (47:33.759)
sure.

Jermaine Jenkins (47:36.95)
you know, six months and someone else travel with you six months or, you know, during the course of a year, hear different boys, get a different perspective. You see that starting to happen on the women's side as well, you know.

Alvin Owusu (47:48.05)
Yeah, you know, I would figure that from a coaching standpoint, would, coaches would feel more territorial about that and maybe feel infringed upon by having another, you know, coach, especially if that coach is a super coach, if you will, but it's interesting to hear that from your perspective, like it's, it makes maybe the job a little bit easier or, you know, makes your impact a little more magnified just from having.

Jermaine Jenkins (48:11.106)
I think there's two different models. know, I think one of the models is you have a master coach and then you have, you know, someone who's kind of executing the day to day stuff. You know, the master's kind of leading. And then the other model is, know, you've got two heavyweights, right? You know, and maybe those two heavyweights are master coaches only come to the grand slams, you know, but then, you know, one guy is kind of doing the bulk of the. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (48:22.027)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (48:34.376)
Right. He's the, he's the constant. Yeah. Jermaine, I'm going to take you in two different directions. The first one is put on your college hat. Put on, you mentioned that that's kind of been formalized now. I mentioned this to Bobby as well. He's also been coaching Auburn now for several years. He was the top 50 player himself. NCAA finalist. I said, Bobby, is there a space for a 20 and under, if you will, level call it the

college zoo, if you will. Is that something that can help? And by that, let me qualify a little bit. Because 20 and under is you're still in my opinion, if you haven't gone pro, clearly you still need some development, right? You are now playing with a lot of 22s, sometimes 23s, right? 21 year olds. You are now that younger player coming up. Is there a space for the 20 and under level?

that can bring the quote unquote American top players in college together for a format. There may be something like that already that's de facto that event, but I'm talking about as far as formalizing it. That's the first question. And what would you as the, I'm gonna say coach of your level, spend as much time as you have on both sides of it now transition and pro, what are some things you would want to be a part of that camp slash tournament? That's the first one.

Jermaine Jenkins (49:43.47)
Thanks

Jermaine Jenkins (50:02.124)
Yeah, I I that's an amazing idea. Like off the top of my head, when you say that 20 and under, I'm just thinking like, if I'm coaching a college player right from my seat, like, okay, I want you to play, eventually be top hundred in the world. Any extra time you've got out of your studies and study hall and classes, I want you playing pro tournaments.

I want you and that that 20 and under level for you is going to look like a 15 or 25 K. You know, so, you know, I think if we had, you know, the luxury of, know, more time and we can space things out, I think that would be perfect. You know, it's just especially for the development, you know, that, you know, because I think it gives you a little bit of time to get settled, you know, gradually kind of work your way up.

Torrey Hawkins (50:32.435)
Thank

Torrey Hawkins (50:53.285)
Yep. Yep.

Jermaine Jenkins (50:56.652)
You know, but yeah, that's the first thing that comes to my mind. Like, okay, well, how much time do we have? If there's any spare time right now, like right now you're only playing maybe two pro tournament, ITF pro. Like, can we get up to five ITF pro, you know? Can we build that into the schedule, you know? maybe, again, this is off the top, you know, I'm sure a college coach could probably explain it better, but you know, I would like to see you get in that

Torrey Hawkins (51:07.889)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (51:20.271)
Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.

Alvin Owusu (51:21.354)
Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (51:26.222)
exposure a lot sooner, you know, because on the women's side, you know, they're getting this exposure at 14, 15, you know, the first 14K at 14, you know, and there's a lot more of those, you know, 15, 25 level tournaments in Europe. like, you know, 14 European, I've got to, and there's age eligibility, obviously. So, you know, you can only play so many at that level, 14, so are 15, you know, 16.

Torrey Hawkins (51:33.073)
100 % faster. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (51:47.921)
Yep. Right. At 14. Right. Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (51:55.502)
But yeah, I think I like the thought T-Hawk, for me, I'm like, man, if you got any extra time, can you get, can you hop in there, start at the entry level?

Torrey Hawkins (52:03.981)
Yeah. So, so that segues into the point that I mentioned and now that I had this conversation a while back, I always remember, I always had some crazy ideas. I told the guys with USTA then when Skoll got the wild card in the US Open, he doesn't need a wild card in the US Open. What he needs is about six wild cards and some challengers. And he needs about, if he could, about 10 total wild cards, five and five.

qualities in the futures and the major of the futures when he's earned them and overall what he's really got now is 16 extra matches right and that was one of my things take that same idea whether you agree or disagree I'll let you chime in on that that same idea going into college going into development what if a team who won his double A's gets 50 and whatever way you want to chuck down the runner-up gets gets 30 the two semis get they split 20 each and so on and so on for the team

Jermaine Jenkins (52:46.178)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (53:01.41)
for the player. can use it as they want to use it. Right? If as opposed to, and again, everybody loves the US Open and that care. It's a great one. get me wrong. But there's so many tournaments that the USDA controls. 50 may be a big number, but just I'm putting it out there to say you get four wild cards into the quality of this one. You get your own tournament, right? Which is six or eight, whatever, and so on and so on. You get the math. I'm mentioning it to say, what if they were

Generous yet not as big of the one ticket, but they got several others for the entire team and in the reality of it How do you think that would affect the exposure you're talking about? If the team itself and how big of a recruiting advantage would that be if your team last year won its double A's and y'all got 50 WCs to get to this and that in the third thing about what I'm saying What what's your thoughts on that and I know and I and

Alvin Owusu (53:51.973)
Well he's laughing, he's laughing so I can tell what his thoughts might be.

Jermaine Jenkins (53:54.03)
Because I mean, you are a dreamer. I love it. I was just thinking about like the other side of it, right? Like the subsidy, right? Like if we, if the USDA put 25K down, then they're asking, okay, we'll match your 25K or whatever it is subsidizing the tournament. You know, so I think a budget there, but then I also think of, man, that would tip the scales a little bit, like you said, with the recruiting part, because like, it was like, all right, well, if...

You know, UGA is getting all the wild cards, I guess. You know, will it ever end? You know what I mean? So I would like maybe you throw them a little bit more cheese on their cheeseburger when it comes to that. But then you spread it out amongst the best top college players, right? Because then like, you know, the whole field is kind of getting some love.

Alvin Owusu (54:27.243)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (54:27.57)
Hey.

Torrey Hawkins (54:35.254)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (54:40.588)
Sure, sure. I only bring it up to say I feel like the wild card for the NCAAs has been under fire a lot lately. If an American player doesn't win it, they don't get it, For John Isner for those years that won a couple of NCAAs, he didn't have an American partner. I remember the one, I'm pretty sure both times. He didn't get into the NCAAs because his partner wasn't American. So I only mention it from the standpoint of did he really need a wild card in the US Open? Maybe not, right? But if he could have gotten that John into.

having a great DC and had a nice breakout and he did fine. But I'm mentioning it from a standpoint of using it further elsewhere. 25 maybe a bit much. But my point being that level of a carrot for the team to me would really help the exposure. And I'm always looking at it just, know, anytime you have an idea of what I've always learned from coaching it, too often we do things a certain way and that's not to say it's the right way. You if you flip that idea on its head, why not?

You know, let's at least walk through the why it can't work. And that's why I bring up to you, you've been at that stage, you've seen a lot of players, you coached young lady that won junior women last year, right? And so what would you say would be the three things she needs, right? Going into next year to capitalize on that experience and to get her to her next level, not her specifically, but a girl like her. You know, what would you say? Give me one of the top three things that she needs to.

Jermaine Jenkins (55:48.462)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (56:05.449)
make the same progress this next year? What are the three things she needs to do, needs to get ready for or within 18 months to really be at the top of her game a year, year and a half later?

Jermaine Jenkins (56:17.326)
Yeah, number one, you know, I think part of the philosophy is match count. You want to be winning at least 60, you know, if you're in that 60 to 70 percent win ratio with your matches, that means that which leads me to my other point. Number two, you're playing the right schedule. Oh, I think the women's side is a little tricky because you have the age eligibility. So what sometimes you see in some cases when people go pro, you know, and they're 15.

well, you can only play so many pro level tournaments. then some of these girls only play pro tournaments, you know, and then they're missing those matches and like, you know, and the matches are so valuable. you know, still playing the grand slam juniors if you still can, but you know, just because you can't, can only play so many pro. And I think the high level ITF juniors now, I think you are earning more pro tournaments. So I think they're.

Torrey Hawkins (57:06.249)
Right.

Jermaine Jenkins (57:15.138)
helping in that way. So I think those would be like one for sure match count, right? Schedule like, and then obviously the most obvious one, like you still need to continue to develop, right? You know, I think some players are different, you know, I think with the girl that I was coaching, Claire V for her, you know, she had the game, but for her, was always these little things in her body, you know, being healthy, you know, I think.

Torrey Hawkins (57:21.787)
my schedule.

Jermaine Jenkins (57:44.546)
You know, and that's a major role, you know, that can be the most momentum breaker in anything, you know, like you get off to a good start, you know, you fill in it and then it's like, boom. Yeah. So, which is a part of the journey, you know, but you know, if, if, if you could maybe like have a physio or have luxury of that, like, yeah. So I think, yeah, just making that investment on that end. think those are kind of the.

Torrey Hawkins (57:50.716)
Alright.

Boom, ding-dong, yep, yep.

Torrey Hawkins (58:04.801)
All right. Rehab beats rehab. no doubt.

Alvin Owusu (58:09.056)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (58:14.987)
So Jay, we've been here for a good bit. We've had a lot of your time. So I wanna get one thing from you before we let you go. And I like to, T-Hawk's smiling over here, because he knows where I'm going here. We like to take a trip to Coach's Corner here at the end of all these episodes. So I'm gonna go with this, considering your experience with that 15-year-old trying to make their way towards the professional ranks.

what would you say is the one thing that you would like to see, let's say the private coaches from academies equip their players with before they arrive to Lake Nona to then start working with the national program?

Jermaine Jenkins (59:00.846)
Yeah, really great question. I think just adaptability, a full game, like an all-court game, you know, because you get caught up in the winning component in juniors, you know what I mean, which is great. It's great for your academy. It's great to have a player who's winning a lot. But can we do some continental grip skills, maybe five, 10 minutes a day? Can we prioritize, you know...

Alvin Owusu (59:21.035)
Mm-hmm.

Jermaine Jenkins (59:29.782)
hitting our spots on serves or even knowing the different types of serves. I think just the development part, because sometimes I think even with COVID, we lost a couple years where we lost a couple years of development. We lost a couple years where we couldn't touch and kind of see what was coming next, because people were in the house. But just, you know.

start young, like especially on the women's game. Like I think Taylor Townsend was on to something with like starting with volleys, know, and then working your way to the baseline, you know, because you see that at the higher levels, you know, you see these girls with these massive weapons and you know, it's like, shoot, like if I can just maybe even bluff it, like I'm coming in, you know, and maybe stick a volley here, you know, I mean.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:02.319)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For sure.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:03.231)
Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (01:00:20.238)
Who knows? mean, that's an extra, you know, 500 grand in the bank or that's an extra two rounds or, you know, that could take you that much further, you know? And then, you know, of course, if you get lucky, you know, even better. But that's what I like to see, you know, at that level is just, you know, when you get a 14, 15 year old, it's okay, of course, like, you know, you get a lot of raw talent and we get it. You can point them in the right direction, but.

I think there's a lot of cases where you're doing a lot of surgery, know, like, man, the palms not down on the serve, like, you know, can you throw a football or, you know, just some, and I think being a multi-sport like athlete myself, like I used to show up at tennis practice with my basketball shorts under, you know, just ready to go hoop, you know? Yeah, yeah. So another thing coaches like, can we play other sports, you know, before we get too specific, you know?

Alvin Owusu (01:01:06.431)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:09.314)
a couple times with your basketball shoes.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:15.069)
Yeah.

Jermaine Jenkins (01:01:18.304)
And I get it, you like you want that lesson, know, you want that, you know, you want that, that, that horse, you know? But yeah, I think, yeah, just those two things, you know, exposing them to other sports. So, you know, you can kind of have those instincts, you know, and then just working on something like a little bit more skill development.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:40.821)
Nice, nice, all right. Well, you know, that is fantastic. And I think, I think we'll.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:42.327)
Great stuff. The only thing I'm going to say, Jay, and I got to say it right now for Alvin, tails us off. We got to get you back on again, brother. We got to get you on. This was good having you, man. There's going to be more than enough occasions from the college space to pro space, Claire V, you know, other things coming up down the pipeline. But we'd love to get your two cents on. Really appreciated you coming through. Please hope that I'm hoping that Jay and Jackie and

Jermaine Jenkins (01:01:52.266)
yeah, most definitely.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:11.617)
Jermaine, don't, Jermia, don't give me too hard a time when I see him next time, but we love, they'll be all right, right? They'll be all right. But it's just been a pleasure catching up with you, man. I have had the privilege of having you on the other side of the net. And even today, as I've always said, the best players always teach me something. You brought a lot to the table today. Really appreciated your perspective, player and coach. And you know, whoever's on the other side of the net is happy to, lucky to have you. You know what I mean? So good luck with the rest of the way.

Jermaine Jenkins (01:02:12.013)
Thank

Yeah, they're all right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:41.514)
with the transition players this year and USTA. And like I said, we'll be in touch soon. And thank you again for coming and joining us on this episode of Best of Three.

Jermaine Jenkins (01:02:51.574)
Man, thank you guys for having me. I really appreciate it. Good to catch up with my ATL, you know, affiliate. So, you good to see you, Avin. Good to see you guys, you know, keep doing big things, high level podcast. So definitely I'll be back.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:58.965)
Sir.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:06.73)
Well, looking forward to it.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:07.006)
All right, fantastic. Tori, thank you. Jermaine, thank you. And with that, best of three, we're out.