Ep. 32: The WTA Avengers | Mid Rome Masters 1000

Alvin Owusu (00:01.25)
And welcome to another edition of the best three podcasts. Tori, how we doing, man?

Torrey Hawkins (00:06.242)
What up Alvin? Man Alvin I'm good man. I'm just getting back from your old stomping grounds in North Carolina. My daughter graduated from Duke University this past weekend. Had just a great weekend man. As a dad I couldn't be more proud. was Grant Hill was the commencement speaker which was pretty cool. my God. Not only was he good Alvin,

Alvin Owusu (00:15.178)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (00:28.917)
good one. He's very good on the mic. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (00:35.886)
He has done a lot post his Duke years and you know, I'll be the first to sign up for the I Hate Christian Laitner, you know, 30 for 30. You know, I've watched it about four or five times. Many some and you may not know fully out of it, my cousin played football for Duke during those years and his roommate was Bobby Hurley in those years and whatnot. And so I had a chance to see Grant up close and personal in some of those days. I remember a fight broke out between

Alvin Owusu (00:40.428)
yeah. yeah.

Alvin Owusu (00:54.729)
Right, right, right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05.656)
football team, basketball team, I say almost broke out. That has happened sometimes, and basketball being what they were, as top of the country, and the football team was kind of the ready to step child a little bit. And my cousin was middle linebacker and one of the better players on the team. And Leighton, as he will be, was the habitual line stepper, I believe is the term. This skirmish was about to turn into a melee, and who jumped on the table?

Alvin Owusu (01:08.411)
I thought that does happen sometimes in universities.

Alvin Owusu (01:27.955)
Hehehehehe

Torrey Hawkins (01:34.461)
and calmed everything down, but was one Grant Hill. All six foot nine of them doing like a plyo box jump onto the table. And I was there visiting my cousin on a random weekend. And I remember saying to myself, after that happened, would I have had the leadership at that time to calm my boys? You know what I mean? And just to kind of let the cooler heads in the room talk. he made it with grace, he did it quick, he did it fast.

Alvin Owusu (01:41.109)
That's what he does.

Alvin Owusu (01:54.333)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:04.173)
was basically Coach K when Coach K wasn't there. And that's one of those kind of stories. It doesn't make the headlines. No one was there but us, you know. And so it wasn't anything that Coach even needed to hear, but he handled it. And as I'm in Cameron for Anya's graduation, I am seeing him cutting down the nets, whatnot. Of course, I'm not a huge Duke fan, obviously, aside from her going there. But it was such a great thing to see him then speaking and what he's done, obviously, post-

Alvin Owusu (02:06.782)
Right. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:33.837)
Alvin, he's on board at Duke. Guess what, Adam Silver, NBA commission was there, Duke, Dugrad. So, and both of were on the kind of front row. Anyway, it was just really cool to see, you know, some people you don't normally see in that setting, you know, and it was my second time. I went to a game, obviously, way back, that's Alvin's been years. Not that Cameron has changed much. They still got the old school bathrooms.

Alvin Owusu (02:38.675)
Yeah, he's a, yeah, he's a Duke grad.

Alvin Owusu (02:48.275)
Right, that your first time in, Cameron?

Alvin Owusu (02:57.159)
Right, they keep the, yeah, they keep it very tight, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:59.181)
still got it tight. it looked like my old high school gym from way back. know what I mean? They still had the trough looking bathroom sink that you step on the metal bar. You know what I'm talking about?

Alvin Owusu (03:10.919)
yeah, yeah, was there maybe two, three years ago for a game, Duke Carolina actually. And it's crazy how it does like, it's what people assume it's going to be like. It is exactly like that. It is old, it's like a high school gym. Yeah, except for like that just in the actual gym. Once you go outside the gym, like they have the Duke Hall of Fame, it's like. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (03:16.138)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (03:24.889)
Old school.

Torrey Hawkins (03:30.827)
Right, you're stepping into Hogwarts, you know what I mean? I mean, it's beautiful, but that basketball team is old school. Duke's an old school, I mean, it's and very gothic and all that. Long story, Anya graduated, I'm very proud of her, had a great situation. Weather's little soggy on Sunday, but I just had a great time, and I know you were a big camera crazy back in your day, you know what I mean?

Alvin Owusu (03:42.782)
Yeah!

Alvin Owusu (03:57.748)
I used to, had my days for sure, for sure.

Torrey Hawkins (03:59.852)
So it was neat to see and it was anyway, long story. She was given my mom and dad were there. My mother-in-law was there. I still had our family. A couple of sister-in-laws were there as well. It was just a good time had by all. It was just really good to see the other families there. Just absolutely. It was humbling. was, as I said, milestone, you're seeing four years, but you're really seeing another kind of really pivotal part, a pivotal.

Alvin Owusu (04:12.405)
That is...

Torrey Hawkins (04:27.527)
landmark, know, in lot of ways. So very

Alvin Owusu (04:27.593)
Yeah, I was thinking about it. haven't, so I'm coming up to the graduation party this weekend at your place and I was just thinking about it. haven't seen Anya since like 2011? 2011, yeah, when I left the academy to move to Texas. That was last time I saw her. So like, mean, she was 14 years younger. She just started school. Like just, yeah, so it's, it flies.

Torrey Hawkins (04:34.505)
Yeah, this weekend.

Torrey Hawkins (04:41.684)
Wow. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (04:46.173)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (04:51.852)
Right, right, right. was an 11. She'd have been, yeah, she'd been born in 03. So she'd been, shoot, eight, you know, give or take. Right, isn't that crazy? it's funny how fast it flies. And that was the real thing was when you're on your. And for those of you out there, all the listeners out there who have recently dropped your kids or should say recently picked your kids up from school, you know.

Alvin Owusu (05:00.085)
8 my daughter, which is my daughter's days. My daughter turns 8 this summer. So that's

Alvin Owusu (05:08.138)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (05:19.9)
in college or can reflect back to when you picked them up that last time. It was a little bittersweet, you know what I mean? It was a little bit of a, wow, it's my last time being here. You know what I mean? It was kind of just a little weird, little, as I said, bittersweet's probably the best word, but very, very good memories of Duke. Hats off to Duke. They did an amazing job with not only the education as inclusive as they were as Alvin, Duke's got a lot more diverse in the last so many years. I mean, I remember back

David was there, ooh, buddy. I mean, you could count us. You could count us on one hand. mean, outside of the athletes, I mean, you were like, nope, nope, he has a black sweatshirt on. He's not actually, oh, there's one. mean, was, and man, I mean, it was like, it was like UN day over there. mean, every time I turned around, was, you know, United Colors of Benetton. So I was just, I was just so impressed. And that's intentional, right? When you see a school like that, with that kind of, you know, with that kind of history.

Alvin Owusu (06:09.417)
Yeah, I hear you.

Torrey Hawkins (06:18.303)
and that kind of academic reputation for them to be as diverse is certainly a choice and certainly a move. Grant actually spoke to that being on the board and as he said, lot of boards will, and he was indirectly probably speaking about Duke in particular and other boards he's on, while they'll talk a big game about being inclusive, being representative and there's a gap. And he just let that statement linger, but there's a gap. There's a gap between what they say and what they do.

Alvin Owusu (06:45.748)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (06:47.147)
and to see him there on the board himself was very indicative of the direction Duke's trying to go. Obviously it would take somebody his caliber to make sure they were on that level. And obviously I felt like Aya has done a lot to improve her station, so to speak, but more importantly to just maximize that truth she was given. I think that's all any of us can do. So it was just a neat time to reflect on all of it. So thanks for asking. I look forward to seeing you this weekend.

Alvin Owusu (07:11.733)
Yeah.

Absolutely, same here, same here. As we segue talking about people maximizing the opportunity they've been given, watch this. I've been having some fun watching the early part of Rome this week. we're gonna, so just for the, I guess for transparency, we're recording this round of is just kind of underway right now. So anything that happens after this, we'll talk about it later on this weekend.

Torrey Hawkins (07:18.676)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (07:22.366)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (07:30.75)
Yeah. Yup.

Torrey Hawkins (07:38.89)
Right.

And one weird quarter in one round, what is that about?

Alvin Owusu (07:44.278)
I don't like it. The tournament is slow. It's slow and then it's fast and like you don't know where you are anymore and then like now where it's maybe it's gonna slow down again this weekend. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I just I turn the TV on and let the tennis happen and and let myself be entertained. But yeah, so I think you know kind of one thing that I was kind of excited to talk about with you is just kind of what I call the return of the Avengers the Avengers with the we have a couple of former

Torrey Hawkins (07:49.332)
Yeah, right.

Torrey Hawkins (07:54.814)
Yeah, weird.

Torrey Hawkins (07:59.224)
for sure, for sure. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (08:10.119)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (08:14.163)
female US Open champions who are like trying to rebuild their careers, you in the last few months for some, last few, you know, last few months for like Naomi Osaka and for Emma Radikanu, but then also coming back from surgery and looking fit Bianca Andrescu. All had some good runs, played some good ball, healthy, happy, exciting.

Torrey Hawkins (08:20.901)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (08:42.239)
for me as a fan to see those three ladies kind of start to put some, put it together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. mean, specifically, guess I'm probably gonna start with Naomi. I like what she's building towards. kept, you know, from last year's Roland Garros where she almost took out Ega, had match points against her, you know, kind of tough sledding some matches where she kind of like, she was close, just couldn't capitalize on like a break or needing a chance, having a chance to serve out a match.

Torrey Hawkins (08:43.498)
Right.

Lace up the sneaks and play some ball, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (09:07.262)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (09:10.485)
couldn't get it done, like those little things that separate good players from champion players, what she had, she's trying to get back to and you've heard kind of in the media in last few months, sometimes she's feeling like, you if I don't get back there, I'm gonna quit. And it's like, you see her as a player, like you're there, you're close, the tennis is there, it's just the belief, you you need to come through a few of these. So my.

Torrey Hawkins (09:28.042)
Very close. Yeah.

Yeah, and kind of reestablish that belief a little bit. You so much of it, Alvin, as you and I know both know from coaching, confidence is huge, man. I mean, you just can't quantify it. I mean, the belief you have in a long route, the belief you have that you can come back. And I think the biggest problem with Naomi in particular having such a long hiatus from the game is that

Alvin Owusu (09:41.653)
It's everything.

Torrey Hawkins (09:56.741)
It's not that she doesn't believe in herself. She doesn't believe that her game is as sharp. And when you come up against a sharper knife, it just reminds you that reminds you in some ways, unfortunately, of where you were, you know, and where you still have yet to get back to. And think that's her. That's her problem. She has to kind of fight through both expectations and history. A lot of people fight through expectations who haven't been there. They're still trying to find, you know, where that top is, wondering if they reached it already.

Alvin Owusu (10:10.217)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (10:22.857)
She's been there. She's been at that top and took out one of the game's greats at the top of her game, know, respectively. And I think that that's probably in the back of her mind of where she's at. She's always had some mental health, you know, struggles back and forth for whatever reason. I think I agree with you, Alvin. I hope she gives herself enough time. She has the money she may not have had before. She has the health.

Alvin Owusu (10:25.128)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (10:49.289)
She has perspective now, being a new mom. She's got a lot of things that if she just were to clear her schedule for the next five years and say, I'm gonna play this schedule. I'm gonna do 25 weeks. I'm gonna play these tournaments. I'm gonna get myself in the best shape I can. And I'm just going to prove to myself, this is a pretty good job. You know what I mean? It's a pretty good job to have as a tennis player.

Alvin Owusu (10:51.349)
Mm-hmm, yep.

Alvin Owusu (11:13.225)
It's a pretty good job, it's a nice life.

Torrey Hawkins (11:14.353)
right and I'm going to do what I can I'm gonna be in the best shape I can I'm gonna I got my priorities right I'm it's just tennis right and I'm gonna go out there and do what I can you know and and just you know what I'm just going through have fun with it I think we would see a Naomi that would shock and awe us from time to time she may even you know as this as expression goes mess around and find out how good she actually could be but I think for her to go down this path of trying to

Alvin Owusu (11:37.564)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (11:41.906)
get back where she was that time has gone that time is past she's not that young anymore she's not and maybe not as fast that that step faster but she's also smarter she's also understands and she has a couple different ways of playing and I feel like if she were to transition to that mindset sooner as opposed to I'm getting back to the old and again I don't know her mindset just saying what I when I hear those kind of things I think to myself you know you may not ever get back to that mail

Alvin Owusu (11:48.649)
Sure, sure.

Alvin Owusu (12:11.005)
Let me ask you this then.

Torrey Hawkins (12:11.931)
But this new Naomi might be better if you just give her a chance. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (12:15.253)
Right, and let me ask you this, just from a tennis standpoint, we talked about this maybe right around the L.S.S. Open where players like Casper Ruud and Stefano Sitsipas made comments about the game has changed while they're playing it, while they're in their prime. Do you feel like her game style, let's game style, maybe her specific game holds up today? Like she was a Grand Slam champion in 2021, think that was her last one in 2021.

Torrey Hawkins (12:27.943)
Mmm.

100 %

Torrey Hawkins (12:41.479)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (12:43.765)
maybe it might have been US Open 2020, I'll show you it open, but does that still hold up today? Like 2021 was, Ega had just won her first French Open, if we kind of take it back there, she was two French Opens, maybe one.

Torrey Hawkins (12:54.246)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (12:57.636)
I would tell you that the women's game hasn't morphed as much as the men. I think it's gotten a lot deeper and a lot younger. I think there have, so there's been a turning of the guard for sure. I see more players like her now is the only difference. I don't necessarily see it changed. For Naomi's sake, Naomi was the changing of the guard, in my opinion. Naomi was that new, improved, better 2.0.

Alvin Owusu (13:11.153)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (13:23.141)
You know, Serena, she had the backhand, she had a serve, she had a forehand, she had a serve, just faster, younger, and maybe move better because obviously because of age and what have you. But so to me, she was the new standard. I think she has always had beautiful strokes and has the ability to cover ground. really, so to answer your question, I don't think the game has changed as much while she's played. I think she's still that player.

Alvin Owusu (13:24.008)
Right, yeah.

Moved well. Yeah, moved better. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (13:49.319)
She needs to get back sharper. She needs to get back maybe a little bit more quicker and manage her core position a little better. That might be the only thing that I think she likes right now. Just being crisp from time to time. Maybe even open up some other parts of her game. Use that slice a little more. Come forward a little more. Start to show all of her variety. But I think if she were to commit back to tennis, which it seems like she's on the process of doing, I think she's only going to keep getting better.

Alvin Owusu (14:11.957)
I think she's in. I think she's in. Yeah, the work she's doing with moratorium. I think she's in.

Torrey Hawkins (14:17.079)
and she's only going to keep improving. And I think she could have a longer stay if that happens. I don't think she should put any timetables on herself. I don't think she should put any real expectations past. I'm gonna do my best every day for the next so many years and I'm on my own schedule. And I think if she did that, we're gonna see a lot more from Naomi. And quite frankly, she was always that good. Now it's just a matter of can she...

you know, get that confidence back to prove it to herself.

Alvin Owusu (14:47.133)
Yeah, and I think you're starting to see it like, for a player, it's hard to gain confidence in practice, right? Everyone generally plays well in practice. But what you need to see happen is like, the things you're working on practice are showing up in matches, and you are executing, which allows you to win matches. And you need to do that kind of like in succession, right? So if she starts to get herself into the round of 16 consistently of your...

Torrey Hawkins (15:04.571)
Right. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (15:13.833)
your Masters 1000s are going deeper in your 500s, showing up in the second weekend of slams, I feel like that's where her experience and her actual superpower, is like, Naomi Osaka does not get shook when it gets tight. Like she is like dead eye and can focus in and get the job done. I think that's the thing that she has over players who have not been there. But she has to get herself into those points. Like I've seen in the last six, nine months or so,

Torrey Hawkins (15:40.194)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (15:42.793)
you'll see her play a, you know, open up a match and she's like got like five and four stares in the first two games. It's like, let yourself get into the match. Let yourself get into the tournament. And I think, you know, doing that a few times over.

Torrey Hawkins (15:51.754)
Right, right, right. And check off some of those early, those early, be it nerves, be it just not being matched sharp enough, right? Two players that come to mind, Alvin and I wanna segue and talk more about Emma Rodikanu, two players come to mind. Number one, Boris Becker, won a couple of Wimby's early on, didn't win one for the other four or five years and then won US Open, but was a more complete player when he won in US Open, right? He just had big game.

Alvin Owusu (16:04.81)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (16:14.846)
Right, yep.

Torrey Hawkins (16:17.829)
Big Serve, Boom Boom, heck, was his nickname. So we knew about Becker early on, but later he was a better player. Not to discount the first two Wembeys. They were phenomenal and he did a great job at 18 and 19 years old, but clearly wasn't as fully developed and Norris fun to watch. Very one dimensional, but continued to progress. And Yvonne Goulagon, I have to mention her. She was one of best, played better perhaps after her child and became a mom and played for several years afterwards and won a few slaps.

Alvin Owusu (16:25.087)
Sure. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (16:47.206)
I say that to say we've seen this only a few times before where a player has won early in their career, taken a bit of a break and come back. Not necessarily a long break. You haven't seen them in the top of the Grand Slam winners list. They've come back to the game in earnest. I feel like she could do that very, very well. It's just a matter of will she give herself the time and the patience, if you will, to get back to that level. Because it's really, it's not a skill set. It's merely about time.

And then as we segue to Emma Rodercano, you heard right here, she's playing better now than she played then when she won. And I have to say, and so the problem is, right, if she keeps looking back in the rear view, she's gonna run into a tree. She has to keep looking forward. She's playing better tennis now. She's playing potentially the best tennis she's ever played. And it's hard to say that about a Grand Slam champion, but you just have to look at it and say, look.

Alvin Owusu (17:25.777)
absolutely. She's what, three years older?

Alvin Owusu (17:45.982)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (17:46.617)
And that was just a magical two weeks I had back in the day, a la Boris, when he won Wimmy at 18. He wasn't the best player in the world then. I don't think anybody would argue with that. You know, he was just, he just happened to have the sun, the moon, the stars aligned when he played that. And I think Alvin, that's the piece that I think people sometimes forget is that these people are mortal. The Avengers, they're mortal, but they are, but for that two weeks they were on fire. The draw fell just right.

Alvin Owusu (18:09.595)
Yeah, that's, God, that's a big one.

Torrey Hawkins (18:15.844)
The situation happened, they played phenomenal for those six or seven matches. And hey, God bless them, they pulled it out and rose to the occasion. It doesn't mean that they were the top. And especially some of them. Now others, you could say, hey, when Fed won three of the four in a year, you could say, you know what, he's one of the top. These were just great. They were just great too. And so I think that's the fallacy in thinking when you start to go back and say, well, I'm one of the best. think.

Alvin Owusu (18:25.46)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (18:31.125)
That's comprehensive.

Torrey Hawkins (18:43.427)
Those are things that kind of hurt us a little bit. Didn't Danielle win one during COVID? Didn't Kyle win one in Australia?

Alvin Owusu (18:48.661)
Danielle Collins, oh no, she got to the finals of Australia, lost to Ash Barty in 2020, 2020 I think, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (18:51.908)
finals Australia. kind of, right, of, was kind of thinking she was at level and then the next year I think she got bounced in the first round of Australia and I'm like, yeah, but that was a little bit of a, that was a little

Alvin Owusu (19:03.679)
Well, I think that's the thing that people have to like, you know, as a tennis fan, look at names and we look at results, right? And we look at rankings. But when you kind of take a step back into what makes these things, right? It's really like you can look at a tournament and if the person who wins the tournament doesn't beat everybody, they only have to beat six, at most seven people, right? And so that, I mean, people don't, not to discredit what Emma did at that US Open, she won the thing, in straight sets.

Torrey Hawkins (19:20.996)
100%. The person in front of them. Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (19:30.872)
Yeah. Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (19:31.326)
from qualities, right? Let's, no one's done that, right? But she didn't beat anybody. Layla Fernandez had better wins than Emma did. but I think if you're willing to, and I've said this before, and I'll say it again, if you're willing to excuse everything that's happened, like, her career starts after that, not before that. Yeah. Right, right. And I think, you know, she was what, maybe 19?

Torrey Hawkins (19:40.324)
100 % 100 %

Torrey Hawkins (19:52.579)
Right, right. It kickstarted with that tournament. It wasn't that tournament.

Alvin Owusu (20:01.013)
18 when that happened and she's 21, 22 now. Okay, now she's starting to approach where she should be, which I think we agree that she has top 10 game. She has top 10 game. I like to see players at least hit their ceiling. And when I watched her play tennis prior to the last few months when she was playing kind of a lesser schedule and just kind of feeling it out and trying to figure out what she was going to be as a professional tennis player.

Torrey Hawkins (20:01.828)
Yeah, maybe 18.

Torrey Hawkins (20:13.621)
for sure.

Alvin Owusu (20:30.101)
Now she seems healthy, she seems committed to doing this full time. Now we're just seeing her lose to players who are better than her. Which is, think that's what you, that's what you want. That's what you want to see. That's what I want to see. Like so Coco, Coco took her down pretty clean early in this tournament. Not early in this tournament, but I think was like round of 30, round of 16, something like that. like, because Coco's just better than her. She's just better than her. She's going to lose to players who are just bigger than her and can kind of like push her around the court a little bit. And you we looked at them next to each other, like, Coco's a lot bigger than Emma.

Torrey Hawkins (20:32.44)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (20:39.979)
Right, right, as-

Torrey Hawkins (20:50.541)
Yeah. Right.

Alvin Owusu (21:00.181)
Bro, I don't know if I've told you this story before, but this was probably two summers ago. The summer she won the US Open. She was playing in Atlanta, the exhibition event. yeah. And so my office overlooks Georgia Tech's tennis courts and I see her down there hitting. And I was like, Coco's hitting on the courts. Because they use Georgia Tech as a practice facility for that tournament. And so I walk down there and I'm like, I'm just gonna watch her hit.

Torrey Hawkins (21:00.237)
she is but but she's cogs stronger and taller than you think

Torrey Hawkins (21:11.971)
Yeah, that pre-match of the land open, yeah, the XO.

Torrey Hawkins (21:25.389)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (21:29.493)
And I was stunned by how tall she was. She's like six foot six once. I'm like, she is tall. Like, I was just stunned when I saw her as like the first time I saw Maria Sharapova in person. I was standing right next to her I'm like, holy moly. You are, you are a athlete. Yeah. Yeah. Very similar build.

Torrey Hawkins (21:31.875)
Yeah, she's a tall girl.

Torrey Hawkins (21:42.071)
Right. Yeah, Maria.

Yeah, Coco's a lot taller than you think. She's a lot bigger, lot stronger. Sharipova might've been 6'2", 6'3", Alvin, all day. I mean, I remember seeing her. I was going up the steps in the old, when I was there, I my last year, so I was coaching, went there with Jamie Hampton once. It was like maybe 11, maybe 13 or 14, 2014. We're on the steps, heading to the calf, and she's about, you know,

Alvin Owusu (21:56.233)
Bro.

Torrey Hawkins (22:15.587)
flight of stairs ahead of me. Obviously she's tall, can see her, we're coming up. Alvin, I got to the top of the stairs and I kept looking for there to be more stairs. I was going to like, where's that last step that she's on that I need to get it to? And I was already on it. Now I'm like, dude, you heard it right here. She's, I mean, I'm 6'6 Alvin, as you know, and for the viewers, I am not sure. You know what mean?

Alvin Owusu (22:25.052)
Hehehehehe

Alvin Owusu (22:41.141)
Alright, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (22:41.908)
When I tell you I'm looking this girl in the eye, I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. This is a tall woman right here. mean, they say, you know, six foot maybe one, she's six three all day, all day in tennis shoes, you know, not heels. mean, six three. I was stunned.

Alvin Owusu (22:52.135)
Right. Okay, so.

So, yeah, so this might have been the same time. was at, so I was at IMG, so that would have been Eddie Herr 2013. And I'm in the indoor courts, you know those indoor courts kind of on the front side of the facility when you come in off to the left with one of my players. And we're hitting, we're hitting in Maria's two courts down from us on the very, far of that run there.

Torrey Hawkins (23:13.952)
Yup. Yup.

Torrey Hawkins (23:24.758)
Yep, Yep, always.

Alvin Owusu (23:25.461)
Ballet cherry was on the front end, he was at the front court and he was and then she was down there and after they finished up, my player wanted to get a picture with her so we tracked her down she was gonna take the back route out of there. And so I'm standing there to take the picture and I was like, Jesus, Maria is tall and I mean, 2013, she was like at the, know, kind of at the peak of her powers if you would, strong too, like not the little girl, yeah, strong, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (23:47.692)
Right, yep, legs are strong. Right, into the wall. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (23:54.678)
This is another kind of random segue. I we're not really talking about this right now. I was hitting some balls the other day with my brother and these two guys were next to us, beginners. And they were like, they're seeing this hit and they're asking, like, how did you guys play in college? And my brother's like, yeah, I played at George Southwestern and I was like, played at Catawba College. And he's like, oh gosh, you guys didn't even play D1. Like, well, what do a D1 looks like?

Torrey Hawkins (24:19.338)
you

Alvin Owusu (24:19.431)
And I didn't give it any air, because I wasn't even hitting the ball that well that day. And I was just like, I've had this conversation so many times with people. And one of my good buddies, Tommy, I used talk about this. played D2 as well. And it's like D2 players generally aren't, the easiest way to spot a D2 player versus a D1 player is gonna be size. It's size. And we talked about what is it, what is it, what.

Torrey Hawkins (24:45.282)
size.

Alvin Owusu (24:48.639)
What are the difference in levels as you go up? It's like, well size kind of equates to the ability to have more weapons, right? You can be more aggressive from more spots on the court if you are taller, right? Physics will do that for you. But is there a more concise way to go, okay, here's the clear difference between division two and division one.

Torrey Hawkins (24:56.735)
I agree with that. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (25:12.966)
the surface I think size is a pretty good one.

Torrey Hawkins (25:19.336)
also think two big statements have to be said at the beginning. The non college athlete has no perspective of how good good is. That's number one. Number two, you and I both know that size is the easiest thing to see. Right? It's the several other intangibles experience years of playing at a high level that you don't see.

Alvin Owusu (25:40.629)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (25:48.801)
those are the two points I'm going to mention. I'll go back to the first one.

Most don't know how good good is. They feel there's the park, there's some big junior tournament, there's some big college tournament, and then there's US Open, right? Like everything is, wow, that's why those guys are good. If I get good enough, I might be better than that one junior, and he might go on to play college and be pro one day. And you're like, you have no idea. You have no idea how many good players there are in this town, let alone, you don't even realize there's.

Alvin Owusu (26:04.981)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (26:15.356)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (26:23.125)
There's 20 parks like this in Atlanta, Or academies or what have you, let alone the colleges and whatnot. So they have no idea of the depth. So they will never have a sure perspective. And then back to size, Alvin, I went that weekend, I was speaking up to Duke, Alvin, I'm 6'6 and played basketball at Morehouse College. There were...

six other guys taller than me on my college team at D2. Grant Hill is 6'9 and some change. He played small forward. I play power forward and backup center. So I say that to say, mind you short for D2, right? And like you, I get that comment sometimes and people are you must still play basketball. And I'm like, did you play in the league? I'm like, yeah. No, wasn't tall enough. And they're like, my God. I'm like.

Alvin Owusu (26:56.117)
He was a wing.

Alvin Owusu (27:15.113)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (27:17.086)
You don't know basketball very well. know, six six, there are point guards my height. You know what I mean? Point guards, short ones. You know what I mean? And I laugh at Magic Johnson was six nine point guard in the late seventies, early eighties. So you got to appreciate that concept. So when I see Grant, all six foot nine of them still walking through and then he's living head and shoulders above, you know, president or whatever the school and whatnot. is actually taller than I thought. I didn't realize he was that tall. So.

Alvin Owusu (27:22.389)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (27:30.525)
Right, exactly.

Alvin Owusu (27:43.273)
Yeah, he's tall dude.

Torrey Hawkins (27:45.153)
Anyway, as I'm watching these, I'm reminded of, because I went back and because the guys on my team were asking me, Hawk, what's the difference in D1, man? Back in the early 90s, Duke was obviously the powerhouse in college basketball. And I said, guys, everybody is just that much taller than us. I go, they are, I said, to a person. Cabral Franklin was one of our point guards and Cabral was probably 5'8", you know what I mean, 5'7".

Alvin Owusu (28:12.617)
Right. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (28:14.612)
Bobby Hurley was 6'4", 6'5", all day. I mean, they may say 6'3", he was 6'4". I mean, my cousin was about 6'4", 6'5". They were fairly close in height. Leighton was 7' tall and he was a forward. So I see that to say Grant was 6'9". I'm looking at, you know, our center was 6'9". This is their small forward at 6'9". So I see that. Anyway, I only mentioned to say the size is a big one. Coming back to tennis specifically.

Alvin Owusu (28:32.819)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (28:44.72)
I don't think, where size for basketball and football is a huge one, you put the number one player on a D2 team and you put the number three guy on a really good D1 team, I put my money on the D2 number one player, 100%. He's won more matches, he's played good competition and all things being equal. I'm not talking about the number one team's number three, I'm talking about

Give me a number 15 in the country, number three. And you heard it right here. I would put my money on the number one player just because he's been in that seat long enough to know. He's probably European, South American, he's hit enough balls. And especially if that's the case, they might as well be the same player. Now, height for sure. You get to start playing some of these big 10 teams, right? They got nobody in lineup is below six four, right? We get that. If you're playing indoors, that's a huge advantage. And to your point, that's where size kicks in. But give me up, give me up.

a good gritty player from say Florida, Florida State or Miami, give me a good player that played at a really good D2 school. And both are from whatever. They are in a sense the same player, especially they came up playing ITS and playing pro tournaments like most of the Europeans do. And that's the intangibles that most tennis players don't understand. I actually feel like our American players not to get too far off segue off the topic.

Alvin Owusu (29:57.684)
And that's the kicker.

Torrey Hawkins (30:08.894)
We play too many junior tournaments. We don't have a baptism of fire with pro tournaments early on enough. unfortunately, UTR of a 14, that we aspire to be, because we're playing other juniors, is not the same as UTR 14's play futures, challengers, and top pros over in Europe. You give me a 13 in Europe, I'm going to 13.5 in Europe who's playing ball, getting around 32, around 16, and

Challengers and give me a 13-5 in the States has played national a couple of times a couple ITFs and kind of had a little flash in the pan that American kid might play six That European kid will play one 100 they could go on the same team. They are two different players I don't care about the UTR and that's just another talk show but we will have to that episode later as well But you talked to a lot of college coaches. They'll say the same thing. They're just the the ones a little inflated, right?

Alvin Owusu (31:00.533)
You know?

Torrey Hawkins (31:07.367)
as far as UTR a little bit and the others wrong, but they're still very, very good to your beginners next to you down there at the park.

Alvin Owusu (31:13.641)
Right, I'll even finish up, say like when I was in school, I probably told you this, I had a teammate who came in my junior year, he was a freshman. He came in and played, he ended up playing one all four years. Best player I had ever seen at Catawba College and I was like, why is he here? This kid is good, like he's good, why is he here? And it wasn't until last year, so this is fast forward almost 20 years, we were at an alumni event and I asked him, I'm like, Jose, why?

Torrey Hawkins (31:27.888)
Right. Here. Right. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (31:43.189)
you never told me how did you end up at Catawba College? And he goes on to tell me that he starts off like, well, I was at Orange Bowl, I was playing at Orange Bowl, and I was like, I'm gonna stop you right there, buddy. Players at Catawba College don't play at the Orange Bowl. But he says he was recruited to go to Clemson and just couldn't get his scores up to go to Clemson. So the Clemson coach, who was good friends with our head coach at the time, was like, hey, I got a guy for you, he's a good player, he just can't get in here. So he ends up, we threw the bag at him, he came to Catawba College and...

broke all the records and you know, that's a, he was the kind of, he's your example. He plays one at division two school, know, sets all these records. He would have been a three, four player at probably at Clemson. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (32:13.342)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (32:20.093)
That's...

Torrey Hawkins (32:24.893)
100 % 100 % and and my point to that is to put a bow on it regardless of size and I was merely saying that player But my point being and he's probably and he was like orange ball that good I'm sure he wasn't tiny I'm only saying in and people don't understand the crossover. It's not like D1 D2 It's there is a strong overlap in the levels and even even down to down to D3 at some part Although you rarely gonna get a 6-3

Alvin Owusu (32:31.981)
yeah, mean he's also 6'3". Let's not, let's not. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:45.318)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (32:53.189)
you know, orange ball player playing a D3. But you might, especially in the top five, top 10 teams. But anyway.

Alvin Owusu (32:59.35)
Yeah, absolutely. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back, a little bit more about, talk about Bianca, we'll talk about Ega, and then start talking a bit about the men's side and what we've seen there. All right.

Torrey Hawkins (33:10.147)
Absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (00:01.081)
And we are back, Tory. All right, so we were gonna talk a little bit about, I think Bianca and Andrescu, right? Bianca's back.

Torrey Hawkins (00:03.148)
Yup, yup.

Alvin Owusu (00:13.04)
I have, okay, we talked a little bit earlier about Emma Rana-Khanu kind of playing up to her ceiling, right? Like what I would like to see for any player is for them to realize their full potential. And if you're gonna lose, just lose the players that are better than you or at least better on that day. I'm happy with that, right? We can't all be number one in the world. Bianca comes back and I think we're starting to see the Bianca like.

Torrey Hawkins (00:14.498)
What don't you see?

Alvin Owusu (00:41.412)
She's going to lose to players who can push her around a little bit. But I think Bianca's superpower is she is very mentally tough, she's a very good on court thinker, and she's crafty. She will try to hit three if that doesn't work, she'll go high heavy, she will loop it, forget high heavy, she will loop it, and then she'll also come in with a slice for it. So she will do what it takes, and I want the best things for probably everybody, but I think she's got a...

Torrey Hawkins (00:59.65)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:09.445)
a spirit about her that makes you want to cheer for her.

Torrey Hawkins (01:12.238)
Sure. And again, she has a very, in my opinion, a very mortal game and a very abnormal and superpower brain. agree. I agree with you a lot. My question, what don't you see that you think you need to? Cause she's one of the players that I'm looking at that I kind of wonder, did she kind of pull a Martina Hingis and kind of one in the realm of the other players were just misfiring at that time and is her game as relevant?

I made a big point earlier about Naomi. Naomi's game is that good. I'm not so sure about Bianca. I'm wondering your thoughts. me what you don't see.

Alvin Owusu (01:42.32)
Sorry.

Alvin Owusu (01:47.629)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:52.814)
Bianca, okay, so if we're holding her to the standard of her US Open Championship, right? I think that's what we're talking about. Is she?

Torrey Hawkins (01:58.765)
I'm actually holding her to the standard of today's top five. Top three for sure.

Alvin Owusu (02:02.768)
Sure, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, she's not, she's not, I don't expect her to win another Grand Slam. She's not top five material. She's probably not, she is as much of a threat in any tournament I think as Imurata Kanu is. I think they actually have very similar ceilings. I think because of her craft,

Torrey Hawkins (02:26.528)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (02:30.734)
I think that her floor's a little higher than Emma's if you want to compare the two side by side. I think if healthy, she can be top 15 all day because she does enough things. Yeah, she tuned up, what's our girl's name? God, whatever, I can't remember right now. Former Wimbledon champion.

Torrey Hawkins (02:33.716)
Okay? Okay?

Torrey Hawkins (02:41.58)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (02:57.904)
Has some issues with the coach. Russian. Nope, it's not Russian. She's from Kazakhstan. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (03:00.829)
you're talking about, yeah, Who was it? you're going, Fire Gorn, Idan Idanovich. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (03:08.28)
Yeah, yeah. When my brain turns on later, I'll be able to come up with a name again, Elena Rabakina. And yeah, she tuned up Rabakina, but that's not gonna happen often. Rabakina just didn't seem like she was just there for it in that particular day. But if you give that same situation to, well, what happened in her next match when she a junction win, yeah, no, you're gonna get gone right through. She's gonna come up to players,

who can just take the racket out of her hand. And that's kind of the end of the story. But I feel like that's okay. There aren't that many of those players in the world. and I think if she can hold her own against the rest of them, and then eventually, know, poke holes in a few of them, that's a top 15 player. Like, that's what that is.

Torrey Hawkins (03:56.205)
I would agree with you on top 15. I would even like to hedge it closer to top 20. I think Emma has a chance to be top 10. I know it's some semantics and numbers and rankings and tournaments, but here's where I will, just saying. I think so. To me, it's a round. It's a round further in the slams. It's a few more rounds in some 1000s.

Alvin Owusu (04:10.444)
It's not it's not semantics it that's a little difference between 10 and almost 20. Yeah

Yes.

Torrey Hawkins (04:24.263)
Here's the point I'm making, Alvin, is I feel like Andreescu did a phenomenal job, very, very solid game. If you were to tell me, right, my girl Kvitova, Petra is coming back, right? She's retired, she went back. Petra has the goods. She's older now. She's a step maybe too slow. She wasn't very fast to begin with, but she was very strong, massive serve.

Alvin Owusu (04:37.912)
Yeah, love Kavirva.

Yes.

Torrey Hawkins (04:49.74)
huge forehead lefty. So there's a lot of good things going on Petra Kavitova and she was not only a former Grand Slam champ, had the goods then and if she's on, especially for certain tournaments like Wembe and others, she could still play some ball. If you told me who has a better chance going deeper in Wembe, let's just say, Andreescu or Petra Kavitova, I would say, I gotta lean on Kavitova, even though Kavitova's a bit older.

The game is there. You see what I'm trying to say? And I hear you when you say there's not that many people. True. But there are 8 to 12 of them. And they may just be in that draw before you reach the round of 32 or before you reach the round of 16. Certainly by the time you reach round of 16. You will be one of them. In fact, you will be in the minority. They will all look like that as opposed to you. And I think that is something that needs to be said. I hear you.

Alvin Owusu (05:17.839)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (05:29.86)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (05:38.297)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (05:44.748)
I think that's actually what to speak to about a condo again She was doing too much up too much loop too much slides too much change up too much and people just going through her like Swiss cheese they're like We were good juniors too. We know how to handle that, know, I mean and I feel like that's where and I like I'm so happy She's back like you I'm happy to see these these players return back to form it rounds out the game. It rounds out the

Alvin Owusu (06:09.957)
Yeah!

Torrey Hawkins (06:11.288)
the draw, their names and people that you recognize, players you've come to love and watch and follow. And I'm a big fan of her. I just wonder, I just wonder if the game has developed along the way. Anyway, that's where I'm at.

Alvin Owusu (06:27.12)
Well, I I think there's a nuanced difference between like, Rodokanu kind of trying to dink her way at times versus Andrescu doing the same thing. Because I think Bianca will do it as part of a tactic. Like, she will drive, she will roll, she will mix up. I think it's just because, right, exactly, that's what I'm saying. She will.

Torrey Hawkins (06:43.156)
Right.

Right. And can bang it, by the way. Let's not put her in a category if she can't. She can certainly tag. Right. Right. For sure. For sure.

Alvin Owusu (06:54.638)
Yeah, she will bang first and then if that's not working, she will roll. She processes at a very high level. That's kind of what said. That's her, I believe her superpower is her ability to think on court. I think if you look at Emma on the other side of the coin, Emma would sometimes do that from a standpoint of maybe a technical deficiency, right? And so like, right, yeah, her ability to dictate with the forehand from the middle of the court is suspect.

Torrey Hawkins (07:05.736)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (07:12.658)
I can't do anything else. Right. Right. I can't do anything else. Let me try this. Right.

Alvin Owusu (07:22.028)
Right. So I think that is something that she's still working through kind of technically as a player. And I saw making great strides.

Torrey Hawkins (07:25.759)
Right. I agree. I agree. Her forehand center shot and the ability to take first strike, especially off is just not there. It may never be there. Let's be honest, but it certainly is not a weapon. Her back and clean as clean as as my dad would say as a gill fish and they never come out of the water, you know, so it doesn't get any cleaner. But the issue is to me, the forehand strike to me is just not as solid. And to your point, Alvin, I think again, certainly no shade. I would tell you that

Alvin Owusu (07:34.777)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (07:45.027)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (07:55.719)
She certainly is round of 16 and better at most of them, all 1000s on any surface by the way. And I would also say that she's clearly around 32 or better on the right draw of any slam. Anyway, I agree with you. I agree with you. I was just asking of the ones you mentioned, coming back, I just feel like they're coming. Here's my question for you, a quick segue. You've got a couple of players and I have to mention Payton Stearns doing a phenomenal job.

Alvin Owusu (08:19.566)
Yeah, please ask me. What do you got for me?

Ho ho ho ho!

Torrey Hawkins (08:25.822)
You've got a couple of players that are starting to make some headway. Okay?

Are they going to elbow the same players we're talking about? Are they going to elbow them out on their way up?

Alvin Owusu (08:41.156)
You know, you know.

Torrey Hawkins (08:41.802)
And that list is about four, it's about four deep right now and, and coming, right? That are really starting to make some waves to kind of push their way into, Hey, you forgot about me inside that, that future top 10 or the end of the year top 10 for that matter.

Alvin Owusu (08:53.463)
Yeah, so in.

Alvin Owusu (08:57.584)
In December, I sat in this chair and I told you Peyton Stearns is coming. And I felt like I wasn't taken seriously. I felt like you weren't hearing the words coming out of my mouth. And here we are, Peyton Stearns is coming. She takes out Madiskeet, seven, six, and the third. Right, that's big. She takes out Naomi, seven, six, and the third in a match that was like, it was a great tennis match.

Torrey Hawkins (09:06.119)
Right. How did you feel really?

Torrey Hawkins (09:16.135)
Yeah, I don't think she's coming. I think she's here, you know. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (09:25.575)
Yeah. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (09:25.712)
both of them on the rails holding on. And Peyton just showed a little more oomph in that tiebreaker, like willingness to commit to the bit, right? And yeah, her game is like, she is the Jen Brady that we were promised. I think that's what it is. She goes heavy, big on that forehand, she moves well, she yells. I feel like it's for her, it's just like, it's like finding the right gauge. It could be literally like with the string, it could be literally like with her game.

Torrey Hawkins (09:35.495)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (09:41.192)
Right? Better.

Alvin Owusu (09:54.82)
just finding the right balance of chaos and calmness that will allow that ball to really do what it wants to do and let her be the player I think she can be, which I think is top 10. I think she does have top 10 talent. So to answer your question, if I'm buying stock in someone's future, am I putting more money into the Peyton Stearns investment or the Imran Akhomah investment? I'm going Peyton Stearns. I take firepower all day long. Am I going Peyton Stearns over Bianca Andreescu?

Yeah, I am. that's just kind of, like I said, I will take the person, like you mentioned with Kvinnova, I will take the person who has the weapons any day of the week.

Torrey Hawkins (10:35.241)
100%. You just have to. And Payne's tall. Payne's six feet herself. Or if not, she's darn close. I just feel like we're coming to a point now, Alvin, in the game where...

Top five perspective looking down. If I'm EGA.

Alvin Owusu (10:51.12)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (10:55.066)
I'm worried because I'm not while I'm slipping from my current post. I don't mind that if I've got a ledge under me at number four in the world, right? I think it's a bit of freefall between four and 10 right now for her where she's not really getting traction with a lot of players in that top five, let alone losing a bit of her. I'm to say traction with the current number one. Coco is now going through her.

pretty regularly. I don't think she's lost to in the last few events. And to your point, Panko has beat her like a drum the last several times. So you start looking at how many people below her have her number. That means there is a slide down, potentially down to outside the top 10 going into the season. Let's look, let's look top 10. Let's look from the perspective of top 10 and down. There are four or five players out there that are looking to, you know, that are looking to

Alvin Owusu (11:41.263)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (11:52.968)
take a bite out of the apple, so to speak, of in their assent, you know, toward the top 10. That could happen this year. Now I say that to say that doesn't bode well for some of those in the top 10 now that are losing a little bit of ground. Yeah. And I, and, and I say that to say, you know, and I love Jasmine Paolini. I thought she was one those that she could be, she could not be. She continues to fight for her spot all day. So she's like, I ain't going anywhere. I ain't going anywhere. Right. And I'm like, she's like, look here.

Alvin Owusu (12:16.132)
Yeah, Jasmine owning it. Owning it.

Torrey Hawkins (12:23.016)
I don't know if y'all thought I was a fluke or not, but look, I'm going nowhere. You know what mean? And so I'm so happy to see her play ball. So she was the one that I kind of had a little asterisk next to say, yeah, she may, may not. don't know. Pinnacle's on the draw. Jasmine's like, look here, let me remind you how I got her the first place. You know what I mean? And I couldn't be more pleased with her game. So I see that to say, you look at Peyton coming up, I think she is a bigger.

Alvin Owusu (12:26.042)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (12:48.616)
she's part of that next wave coming in that you really have to kind of watch for that I think is really going to start to pronounce themselves both in this French Open, obviously going to Wembee, and then from there on in album, it doesn't get, unless injury or something happens, it doesn't get any easier through the rest of the year going through the US Open.

Alvin Owusu (13:06.882)
Yeah, that's a weird thing about though, before we get to the ego part of it, because I think we need to make some space for the ego part of it. That is a conversation to be had. There are a lot of things that make up these rankings and these results. There are numbers next to the names. Results lead to seeds, seeds lead to rankings. There are people that can win Grand Slams, like your Patrick Avitovich, like you mentioned.

Torrey Hawkins (13:13.457)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (13:36.78)
There are people who have won Grand Slams for whatever reason. You're Americanos, you're Bianca Andreescu, so on and so forth. But those who finished top five at the end of the year, that's a different skill set, right? That is, and doing it year after year is, that's hard work. That is hard work. That is a professional's job, right? Barbara Krachikova, for instance, right, has won two Grand Slams. She won a Grand Slam last year, right?

Torrey Hawkins (13:46.981)
Mm-mm. I agree.

Torrey Hawkins (13:57.447)
So, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (14:08.704)
Barbara can't stay healthy, right? And so that is going to prevent her from defending her Wimbledon title, right? It's gonna impact her seeding. So she's gonna get a tough third round match and it's gonna be hard to see her again in the final on Sunday. So these things matter to a certain extent. The EGA thing. Okay, so.

Torrey Hawkins (14:23.952)
Yep, I agree.

Alvin Owusu (14:33.264)
Ega is, I think this is important to keep in mind, Ega has won five Grand Slams, right? Four Frenchs, one US Open, and she is 24, she'll be 24 in a couple days, I think, into this month, right? That's a Hall of Fame career already, right? So if she puts the rackets down, right, Ega is a Hall of Famer, first ballot, no question, right? But Ega right now is, obviously she's not,

Torrey Hawkins (14:49.412)
All ready. 100%.

Alvin Owusu (15:00.496)
playing her best tennis. She does not look like she's in a good head space, like she does not look, seem like she's enjoying playing tennis. There's probably a lot going on in her life. But I think you have to keep the 24 in mind, right? For comparison's sake, Sabalinka's 27, right? There's a difference when you're 19 years old winning a Grand Slam and your career's in front of you, right? Oh, you're just playing tennis. You're just going. You're playing tennis, playing tennis. Yes.

Torrey Hawkins (15:28.164)
Yep. Playing free.

Alvin Owusu (15:30.768)
And then at a certain point, you are a professional tennis player and you have to manage all the things that come along with that. That could be, she recently lost a grandfather, or grandparent, right, I can't think of her grandmother or grandfather, right, during Madrid, right? That will impact anyone, right? You start to hear the media puts more scrutiny on you as you get older, as you've done more. That's going to happen, right?

Torrey Hawkins (15:44.678)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (15:50.534)
Sure. Habanero grass, mean, you know what mean? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (15:52.812)
Yeah, exactly. start to, yeah, their expectations start to come along with it, right? Your dating life becomes a thing, right? There's things that happen as you become an adult that are not present when you are an elder teen, right? But that is part of the job of being a professional tennis player. It's being, like I mentioned earlier, being able to do it year in and year out, right? So, Ega is, I mean, she's coming up on Roland Garros here. She hasn't made a final of an event since Roland Garros last year.

Torrey Hawkins (16:21.861)
last year.

Alvin Owusu (16:22.136)
She's not playing good tennis. She's in a bad, a somewhat bad spot for her, right?

Torrey Hawkins (16:27.621)
I'd say her confidence has taken a huge blow. I don't think she's playing. I think it does all the time. I don't think it's anything.

Alvin Owusu (16:30.276)
That happens though.

Torrey Hawkins (16:36.074)
I want to step back and make a comment from 10,000 feet. Just because you are ranked that high doesn't mean you're always playing that well. So I need to say that for all of those out there, the ranking is simply a collection of your points up to this point in time. It is a snapshot of where you unfortunately were, not are, were.

Alvin Owusu (16:46.936)
Yes, yes.

Alvin Owusu (16:59.15)
in the last year.

Torrey Hawkins (17:05.445)
So unfortunately it's a lag measure, right? It's not a lead measure. So therefore it's what you did a year ago up to this point in time, that collection. And many, let's face it, you get up to a certain perch, it's just, that's the highest you can go. There are more dings the next year as more than there are points to pick up, right? At certain, especially when you're about Grand Slam champs. You just can't win two 1000s and catch up, you know, to a Grand Slam.

Alvin Owusu (17:34.586)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (17:35.373)
measure of points, let alone confidence to win such. coming back down to our current altitude level, I just feel like I'm not worried about Ega the tennis player. I am worried about Ega, former Grand Slam champ, thinking that she has to play Grand Slam level champ type tennis all the time. And I'm also worried about her from a coaching standpoint. Is she continuing to grow, develop, add things to her game? Is she continuing to

develop things that she doesn't have to get a little stronger. We all know that serve could be a little bigger. We all know that she could develop a just a bigger forehand if she stepped back to hit one as opposed to taking everything on the rise. I feel like she could involve the net. She takes everything early. Her swinging volleys to me are not as, not as, she doesn't induce many and she doesn't from all the matches I've watched over the years, she doesn't hit as many.

Alvin Owusu (18:18.348)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (18:34.115)
where I feel like if any arena takes more swing of all this, you know, then then the ego and I would think if anybody takes the ball early, the natural progression is to take a ball early out of the air. Right. And so I just feel like, there's there's things where she's almost fine tuned what she's already done. And unfortunately, that may not be enough if you have that kind of game. And she's a she's a little bit one dimensional in terms of taking things early and.

That in itself, know, on the rise is more of a tactic than a game style, as far as I'm concerned. I think that's one thing that's going to hurt her long-term if she doesn't develop another way, a B game or plan B to beat some players, especially players that have, that don't have all the same power. You're on the rise, isn't going to be as big. It's going to match up well against big hitters, but even a big hitter knows when, when not to give you the pace that you're kind of waiting on.

to absorb and redirect. So that's where I feel like Ega, maybe that's where the emphasis should be, not on her tennis. We all know she's a phenomenal ball striker and a proven champion. Can she continue to develop her game to fill up some of the holes that she has? Every player has holes. mean, Saba League has got holes. I mean, it's just a matter of can she work on them enough to hide them, to improve them, know what I mean? To get back to where she was and get that hunger back and feel like she's really earned it again, which I always felt like was one of her

Alvin Owusu (19:43.876)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (19:59.256)
her things for success. She worked so hard, she felt like she deserved to win.

Alvin Owusu (20:03.152)
Well, I think that's, know, the tennis part meets the mental part, right? Like you said, she plays extremely aggressive, which is, it's weird to say, considering how good she is on clay, that she plays extremely aggressive, but like her ability to take the ball on the rise and create spin and put pressure on you from such a tight court position is not what you see in typical clay quarters, and that's what puts you under so much duress as her opponent, right?

Torrey Hawkins (20:08.835)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (20:17.515)
Yeah. Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (20:31.531)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (20:32.516)
But there is, I think there's like a little bit of that blood in the water that we've talked about before. There is a tennis related issue that is causing her problems right now. It is now very well known that you can attack that second serve. And so attacking the second serve automatically, like as soon as she hits that second serve and she lands, she does not know, she's not that comfortable backing up and giving space, right? And playing from that level back there and then working her way up.

Torrey Hawkins (20:56.929)
Yup. Yup.

Torrey Hawkins (21:01.965)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (21:02.032)
And now everyone's doing a tour. Like everyone's got the Panko playbook and Danielle Collins ran through her the other day as well. Like it's same thing, like same thing. And so like if you're not, you can't serve 75 % every day for serves, right? So if you're gonna hit those second serves and you're not, you're not ready to get yourself from defense to neutral to offense, that's gonna be tough. And I, know, to your point about like what happens after.

Torrey Hawkins (21:06.848)
Yeah.

Yep, saw that.

Alvin Owusu (21:32.142)
you know, if she falls out of the top four or out of the top 10, like who's coming? think the issue there is there are a lot of players who can expose that. So really, it's really on her to, you know, kind of reset the floor as to steal a phrase from, from Andy Roddick, like reset the floor about what, can she do on her worst day? And the big question for me at the macro level is at the end of Ega's career,

Is she going to be a player who had a really nice run over the course of four or five years? Or does she have the ability to do kind of what Serena did, which is to have multiple arcs, right? Which you don't see.

Torrey Hawkins (22:13.699)
Right? Within that span of almost 20 years.

Alvin Owusu (22:17.552)
10 years. Yeah, exactly. like, you don't see that on the women's side. I guess you don't really see it very often outside of the big four of Serena plus the three. It's like, can she take a bad year and just regroup and then come back and still be effective next year? I think that is the that's the question mark. Have we seen the best of her? Is she like the rest of them that had their run and now it's over? Or can she when she's 27 when she's, we're gonna say Malinka's age.

Torrey Hawkins (22:37.996)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (22:46.966)
Is she a fully formed professional tennis playing adult woman who? Right.

Torrey Hawkins (22:52.467)
Right. Still with room to go, still with things that she's working on to get better. And I really feel like she's too much of a champion not to. I can't think she won't be frustrated enough to work on some things and get better. Again, I don't doubt her heart, I don't doubt her mindset, I don't doubt her work. She's gonna put in the work, period. Up to this point in time, I have not seen it. And honestly, that's the most dangerous spot to be for the

Alvin Owusu (22:58.8)
She's a champion. Yeah, she's a champion.

Torrey Hawkins (23:20.706)
with for the WTA because watch out when you get a pissed off Ega that's got something to prove and what it has a chip on her shoulder coming back. I think that's that'll be a fun fun thing to see. We're not seeing it now. Maybe she needs to take a good thumping, you know, at the French, which is kind of where she's kind of hanging her hat on. Maybe she needs to get one good butt whooping to help her go back to the drawing board and kind of reassess some things and get that serve better and make some other changes because players like that also can be very hesitant to change. You know, I know from working with players, you know, it may not be

Alvin Owusu (23:46.586)
Sure, absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (23:50.101)
It may not be as good as I want, I don't want to change it right now. They're very, I'm gonna say non-open to change. I won't say close, non-open. Can work on that later, you know what I mean? And the women's tour in particular, the girls, man, they know they're in control. They they'll fire a coach over making too many changes, and quick to blame. Rebekah is just the she's the picture in the dictionary on that one currently. Anyway.

Alvin Owusu (23:58.416)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (24:02.885)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:18.53)
There's a lot of players coming up in that, that are in the 30s and 40s, I might add, that are coming. And that's the only reason I want to mention is I think we got, it'll be a very, very solid French Open. It's rare that we've had this much depth, or by depth, mean players that have beaten some top tens that are lurking outside of the seats. know I mean?

Alvin Owusu (24:41.06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:43.266)
Peyton won't be seated at the French unless there's a different ranking system. She has the ability now, she's had a handful of wins on top 10s. you start looking at that kind of depth outside of where that is. If I took, what is it, 30, give or take 32 seats. I look at 33 and out, heck, Magna Lynette is 32, Alvin. mean, and she's got to the...

Alvin Owusu (25:07.864)
Yeah, she's a tough out.

Torrey Hawkins (25:09.378)
round of 16 or quarters of the last slam. you got players here that already that have reached farther in slams than their ranking currently is. Danielle Collins, Anz-Jabor Alvin is 38. I mean, you got a lot of players. Ashton Kruger, 37. Benčić, 39. Peyton Stearns, 42. I mean, look at some of these players. Naomi's 48. mean, there's a lot of depth in that level. Emarada Kahn, 49. I'm just saying.

Alvin Owusu (25:30.51)
Well, yeah, and that's the...

Torrey Hawkins (25:38.795)
Kudama Tova is 50. There's a lot of ladies in that level that have had some starts. McCartney Kessler, 44. My point is just a lot of players in that area that you're like, wow, don't sleep.

Alvin Owusu (25:49.337)
Yeah.

Well that's the part that worries me a little bit. Not to harp it up, we can finish up on Eega, but results make rankings, rankings make seedings. Seedings allow you some space to get into a Grand Slam. If you're seeded in a Grand Slam, you're not gonna get another seeded player until the third round. That's how goes. So as things start to change for Eega, we go a full year, no finals, no championships.

Torrey Hawkins (26:11.99)
Right. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (26:21.2)
She's gonna slip to, I think, like four next week, possibly four. If she does not do well at Roland Garros, like, we got a problem. We got a problem. Now we're talking about dropping outside of the top 10. And now that makes your week one of your US Open a whole lot different than typical if you're coming in as a top two seed, right? So that's just kind of like, it doesn't matter except that it matters.

Torrey Hawkins (26:51.115)
Yeah, especially, especially for the French for her, you know, and that's the time for her to, this is usually her time to shine. So here, we have to do at least a quick, I know you don't want to talk about players currently in the tournament, but we have to say one very brief.

Alvin Owusu (26:51.204)
Right. That's...

Alvin Owusu (26:58.382)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (27:13.696)
talk about my main man Yannick Center.

Alvin Owusu (27:16.208)
All right, let's take one more break and then we'll come back. We'll talk about the ATP side of the house and Yannick, the center of things.

Torrey Hawkins (27:24.256)
the center of all things.

Alvin Owusu (00:00.49)
And we are back. So before the break, we talked a little bit about Yannick Center and, I know Tori, you're excited to have the King Carrot back on the court. Yeah, he's, it seems like all things are back in place when he's there. I know Carlos spoke to it one of his press conferences right at the beginning of tournament. He's very aware of their impact on one another and he needs,

Torrey Hawkins (00:02.36)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (00:11.926)
I am. I am.

Alvin Owusu (00:29.77)
Yannick around to be the best version of himself, almost keep him on his toes, force him to bring the best. Yannick brings the best out of Carlos. I know we're not gonna talk a little bit, we're in middle of tournament and he's still in it, so we're gonna talk too much about the actual results, but how did you feel about seeing him against, I think he played Serendale yesterday maybe.

Torrey Hawkins (00:31.084)
Right.

Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (00:42.647)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (00:50.584)
played Serendelo, yeah he won I think six and three. Even his first match in Serendelo's playing some good ball right now. I watched a good bit of that first set album with Serendelo and you heard right here Serendelo's playing some ball. think there were times where you could tell that he was ready to break the match wide open and give your boy an early Arriba D'Arci, you know what I mean, on the match. And there was this weird

Alvin Owusu (00:53.054)
The Good Surrendalo.

Alvin Owusu (01:15.54)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:18.67)
kind of random break at like three all and it just seemed to give center the break he'd the window and little crevice he needed to kind of sneak in. Alvin it felt like he was getting pushed around moved around still hitting solid but a little bit short not quite hitting the balls clean and then it just seemed like man three all four three four like he now while he still wanted to break because Wendell had to raise his level you just saw a bit of the old Yanuk come back and he was starting to move forward take it early move the ball around

at will and I was like, snap with each ball, he's getting better. And it was just, it was just kind of fun to see. I have one of my college kids back, work with me out of college now. I just finished up at Florida this past year and he's hadn't played much tennis, but he was hitting him with one of the kids. Took about 45 minutes, right? Because then Luda had to pick up a rack in the air and hitting with one of my girls, pretty steady, pretty solid player and rolling ball, slicing, you know, miss hit a couple, right?

Alvin Owusu (01:53.469)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:17.357)
10 minutes in, he found that first forehand, right? I'm watching, like, okay, I'll kind of give him a little wink. 25 minutes in, he took that first big step up, you know, just clean, and you're like, oof, you know? I'm telling her, keep it to her level, right? About 45 minutes in, she caught about, the girl caught about six good backhands in a row, and he stepped in one and just tagged one through her, and she like fell back. And he's like, he's kind of doing this with his shoulders kind of stretched, I'm like, starting to feel it again, aren't you? He's like, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (02:30.525)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:47.799)
Finally found the back end again. And it's just a small story to say he was a 10 UTR before. He was a good player, know, not good enough for Florida, but certainly a good player. And against this, you know, five, six UTR he's hitting with, it wasn't, but he hadn't picked a racket since last fall. It took him a while. My comparison, center hasn't played against that level, let alone a good clay quarter like Sarandolo. And you could tell it took him a minute to kind of catch up.

Alvin Owusu (02:58.578)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (03:18.493)
and about 15, 20 minutes into the match, could tell he, Janek, was starting to feel it a little bit. And it was really, and quite frankly, get tested, you know what I mean? Even with that breaker. So I feel like the Italian is a great tournament. Obviously he's Italian. So that bodes well for him with the crowd behind him and the clay gives him a few more balls to hit, gives him a little more time to kind of get some reps. This tournament is going to be perfect for him. I don't want to speak too much more on him, but I do want to say,

with each tough match he has, it's almost like a great catch up for the three months that he's missed. And then going into the French, I mean, I think he will be, I think he will be, he'll be okay. That's all I'll say.

Alvin Owusu (04:02.513)
Yeah, I think he's gonna be fine. mean, people talk about the layoff and they talk about it, it's like, it's conveniently timed and all that stuff. And we can talk about that another day, but I think the amount of time off is probably overstated, because it was 90 days, right? Yannick, last year, finishes the ATP Tour Finals mid-November. Does not play a warm-up event.

Torrey Hawkins (04:06.572)
No.

Right.

Right.

Torrey Hawkins (04:19.402)
Right, right, right.

Alvin Owusu (04:29.659)
into the Australian Open, which starts effectively on February 1st, right? That is, you know, that's 75 days, right? It's not crazy, it's not unheard of. So like, plays two matches, he'll probably be fine by the end of this week. He doesn't look, he looks like about a, yeah, he's definitely fresh.

Torrey Hawkins (04:36.137)
Right. Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (04:43.561)
Yeah, might be better than fine. You know what mean? Other players are still dinged up. Alcares has a little bit of an abstrain and other things. Other players are trying to get through. Anyway, I wanted to just speak to that. It seems like it's a great term of forum. Shout out to Jasmine, who's also playing in her home country and doing some big things this week and the crowd behind her. I wanted to speak to you, Alvin, on one small note.

I'm getting some of these tennis headlines, Alvin, and I gotta tell you, it really bothered me seeing players complain about the balls. Seeing players complain in general. And I'm like...

Alvin Owusu (05:23.955)
balls court.

Torrey Hawkins (05:25.356)
The the clay's not very good. When I start hearing people complain about the balls and the clay, I'm thinking to myself,

Champions don't complain about stuff like that. It's the same on both sides. It is what it is. Let's get to work. And I feel like, and the players in question, right? One with its boss, right? One was Varev, right? And I'm like, this is what your mind's on right now. Maybe the media just got you out of context. And that's fair. I understand how journalism works. They're trying to get a few things out there.

Alvin Owusu (05:59.7)
Sure, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (06:03.431)
I dinged the tournament, nod, something. They're looking for any soundbite. I get it. But I would be very careful with my words in the media because in my mind, I'm thinking to myself, this is not the kind of mentality I have, nor do I want to project the clay. Hey, the clay's fine. I didn't notice the clay. You know what mean? I was too busy working. I was too busy trying to get my forehand. And I think there are times when there are things, any top player,

Alvin Owusu (06:31.689)
Are you, wait, you questioning Stefano Tsitsipas or Alexander Zverev's self-awareness? Is that what you're, is that what you're, you're, is that is is that what is is is is

Torrey Hawkins (06:38.282)
1000 % and more importantly, they're at a pivotal point in their careers where they're trying to make a statement, Titsipas in particular, Titsi is trying to get back into the top five form that he was before and Zverev is trying to win a slam before he exits stage left. Both of which in my opinion are on borrowed time for a stated goal.

I would be 100 % focused on the job at hand, my goals, and not worrying about anything that is a potential deterrent whatsoever, let alone something as constant and as equal on both sides as the clay and the darn tennis ball, Alvin. You know what I mean? And I'm just saying, it doesn't bode well for them thinking. He got in little skirmish with Fies about a week or so ago in a match.

Alvin Owusu (07:33.159)
Yeah, that one was, that was a, that was, it was nothing. It was a nothing burger. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (07:35.673)
It was a blow up of the media. 100 % nothing. was a nothing burger for sure. But I like how Feast responded both in the match as well as what he said. He used his motivation album and when I hear things like that album I say to myself, that's the right thinking. That's how you think a match. And I don't know what he said or didn't say and what he meant by it. It didn't matter. I like how Arthur responded. And it told me that he's got the right kind of wiring on the inside.

that let me know that he'll be around for a while and he'll play great tennis. And it also let me know that if there was anything, if there was anything to it, again, it was probably nothing burger also, but if there was anything to it for Stefanos, I just worry about some of these things where you kind of looking at it like, I'm not sure you should be focused on these kinds of things right now with where you are in your game. And that's all I want to speak to it. I just felt like I don't take too much out of proportion. It just didn't bode well for me for a couple of guys that have

Alvin Owusu (08:08.766)
Yeah, so-

Torrey Hawkins (08:34.728)
let's face it, underperformed to a large degree of late. And especially with where they have been in times past. And I just, and I thought that was a, it was an eerie, it was an eerie feeling of maybe that is part of your problem. And that's all I'll say to that.

Alvin Owusu (08:43.774)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (08:49.641)
Well, I think it's indicative. You can look back at the last 30 days of the podcast we've done. Who gets more of your energy, more of the airtime? It's not Stefano Sitsipas when compared to Arthur Feast, right? There are players, they can be side by side in the rankings, but moving different directions at different points in their career. Exactly, exactly. And that's another thing that I've been really happy to see over the last five weeks.

Torrey Hawkins (09:07.942)
moving different directions album. One's got the green arrow, one's got the red arrow. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (09:19.593)
I'll use Arthur Fees and Lorenzo Mousetti, right? They both had some really good results, but then they've been able to back up those results with at least a good start to the next tournament, right? You're not gonna final every event. You're not gonna semi-final every event, but if you do make it to the last two days of the event, I I love to see players show up the next week, get that early first W. Like, no, no, I'm here.

Torrey Hawkins (09:37.395)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (09:46.312)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (09:47.418)
And I saw it with Jack Draper this week, right? Who's playing right now, so we won't go too far into it. But he's deep in the tournament after finaling Madrid. Same thing with Casper Ruud, right? Wins Madrid, shows up the next week, back to work. Art De Vries still has made round of 16, I think, or quarterfinals in every event in the last four or five weeks. So that's how champions get built.

Torrey Hawkins (09:50.6)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (10:16.227)
You have to be able to back it up week after week, week after week. Love to see it. And I think I had another kind of a side there. We talked maybe a couple weeks ago about this clay court season being, it's condensed and it's also long at the same time. It's like five events leading up to Roland Garros and all on.

Torrey Hawkins (10:39.101)
Yeah. yeah. And now there's those two, used to be two fifties, there are now five hundreds that are right before the tournament that lot of players are jumping into. Yeah. Right.

Alvin Owusu (10:48.233)
Yeah, Geneva and Hamburg are next week, they're squeezing right in. you know, there are ways to approach a Grand Slam, right? know, some players play a warm-up event before Australia, but there aren't that many of them, right? You might get a week or two, and then you're there. Granted, it's hardcore, everybody plays on hardcore, fine. Wimbledon has, you know, some players will get one event before, there's kind of spread all over, and then you go to, and then you show up and you play on Wimbledon.

US Open has the lead ups, most players usually show up Washington 500, Canada, Sensi, let's get into it. So I'm starting to think, as much as I love the clay court season, the more clay the better in general, in my opinion. But maybe we shouldn't actually pay attention to anything that happens before Madrid. Maybe it is Madrid.

Torrey Hawkins (11:23.4)
Sense it. Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:40.937)
and that's all you should really think about when you go into the French Open. Because Casper was doing nothing before Madrid, and now Casper's a legit contender for Roland Garros because he's right back to where he needed to be.

Torrey Hawkins (11:43.611)
Mmm.

Torrey Hawkins (11:55.688)
I certainly hear you. I certainly get your point. I also feel like the unfortunate part is because there's no breaks, right? Because there's no breaks in the year and the tour unfortunately doesn't allow you to take a break. You're contracted almost to play all those events. I would hate to have this, woe is me, I won Monte Carlo and it was too early. You know what I mean?

Alvin Owusu (11:58.026)
You're so kind. You're so kind.

Alvin Owusu (12:24.947)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (12:25.401)
And I feel like I feel like that's where we could easily We could easily go down that path if that were the case winning a tournament winning a tournament You know me you're playing well you feel good about yourself I don't think enough players win enough tournaments and at times I feel like there's not enough tournaments to be had I feel like the clay court season is long. I feel like there should be breaks in the schedule I told you before my crazy idea about giving each of them their own individual season with the break

Alvin Owusu (12:53.757)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (12:54.841)
and having everything from the challenger lead up to the qualities being longer in some cases to get into the actual event. And each of them should have a more uniform slash longer lead up Australia and maybe in particular. And then you could condense it down a little bit, the players a bit of a break and actually play and they could have time to rest the bodies and what have you. But these players are choosing to play. They're choosing to take that appearance money. They're choosing to get.

Play more rounds and quite frankly get ready. So when they take a little ding here and there, a nap straight in the back, an ankle or something, well, they also are choosing to play those events for that length of time. I feel that's the tour. And as much as I'm a big opponent of the tour, milking the same four to eight guys, you know what I mean? Or ladies, you know, for all, fans and for marketing purposes and to sell those seats and sell those TV rights.

I also feel like the players are still choosing to play. And I feel like that's one of the things that I'm gonna stay with that. I think the clay court season, it benefits many players who are from some of those countries, right? Zverev did well in Germany. He's German, right? So, and obviously, Saner and Jasmine here in Italy. So I think that also, you gotta kinda factor that part of it into it as well. It brings the tournaments home to those countries. I just feel like it should be a bit more uniform and have a lead up.

One shouldn't be two months long is all I'm saying. It shouldn't be two months long leaving the French with some being barely two weeks. I feel like that's, know, and I think still, doesn't Wimpy still pay the most or is US Open paying the most now?

Alvin Owusu (14:22.704)
Yeah, it's-

Alvin Owusu (14:32.265)
I think they're all on par. They're all within like literally the thousands of dollars from each other. It's all pretty close. Now granted when you talk about taxes, it gets a little weird.

Torrey Hawkins (14:37.634)
Right. So my point being, right, right. Different story there. I'm only saying, I feel like for them all to have that much money, know, Jim Curry made the comment, generational, you know, money that the slams can provide, let alone the sponsorships and whatnot that come from it. I feel like each of them should have a little bit of more of their own season to really, just to stratify a little bit better, right? You can't.

get ready for grass in a tournament or two. Two events, one tournament and the EXO. You had to have good on grass. I feel like that's the unfortunate thing with the grass course is being so short. And let's face it, I know there's a limited number of venues that have grass. I get that. But that should be addressed and I think there should be a longer lead up for the Australian. I really do. I think that's one of the travesties of tennis. I think the EXO season and the tour masters need to happen much earlier and I feel like there should be a longer.

Alvin Owusu (15:13.832)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (15:33.989)
But in its current form, champions find a way to win. Champions find a way to get through it and they're not the ones complaining about the tennis balls and the clay.

Alvin Owusu (15:38.995)
Yeah, that's.

Alvin Owusu (15:44.626)
Right, so speaking of champions, probably one of our final things that we can get out of here. Novak, okay, so I went on about Novak last time we got together and I said some things. I said some things. He's.

Torrey Hawkins (15:57.658)
Yep. Yep. You're still standing behind it. You still standing behind it. know you are.

Alvin Owusu (16:03.383)
ten toes down. He's probably still gonna play, he's probably gonna play the French Open, I think. I don't feel any different about what I said about him. Well, who knows? Who knows of this guy? So this week he, so obviously he pulled out of Rome, so I'm not gonna play Rome. Okay, after losing in the first round of Madrid. First, second round, first round. First match. And then takes a wild card into Geneva, so he's gonna play next week.

Torrey Hawkins (16:08.581)
He's edging his bet now.

I think.

Alvin Owusu (16:33.705)
And then also announced that he's parting ways with Murray. So what, what do we, what do we, what do we do? What are we doing, man? What the hell's going on? What are we doing?

Torrey Hawkins (16:36.437)
I that.

Torrey Hawkins (16:39.834)
What gifts?

Torrey Hawkins (16:46.911)
I think, pure speculation on my part, I think Murray says, buddy, you're not playing the same level of ball that you were playing when you were at the top of your game. You brought me on to help you win slams. You can't beat first round fodder. This r-nol-dy guy who you lost to in the first round.

Alvin Owusu (16:51.091)
Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (17:15.001)
This guy wouldn't be good enough to be your practice partner, you know, five years ago. And if you're not really healthy, then you need to be honest with me and honest with yourself. Otherwise, I'm out of here. That's what I think were the words from Andy Murray. I retired when I felt I was at this point. Now, that's your decision. This is me paraphrasing for what I'd speculate Murray telling Novak. You're still hanging on hoping.

And unfortunately, those chances are very slim and very, and none as far as I'm concerned. I haven't seen you remain healthy for the entire length that we've been together since Australia. And even then while I thought you had a chance, I saw some, I saw a nice glimmer in Miami. I have not seen you be healthy since. I've not seen your form be that good since. You think it's going to massively turn around for the French? Really? No.

And that's what I think that I think they parted ways in a very mutual look, play your tournaments, do what you got, but you don't need me. You're waiting on your body to catch up and the time to be right. You don't need me here for that. If you want to bring me back quarters on of the French when you get there, call me. I'll be there. I'll take a first class flight. I'll be there. I'll be in the box. But until we're starting to talk, because that's what we're here for, right? I'm not here. Your team is doing a great job with you by themselves.

you got me back to when you won last to win number 25, right? And that's what I think was the conversation. And I think that's really part of the ways. That's me. What do you think?

Alvin Owusu (18:46.984)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (18:50.953)
I'll take the other side of the fictitious conversation that you and I overheard between Novak and Andy. I think it was Novak going, hey bro, I'm gonna go ahead and let you know that I'm done. And I'm gonna let you get out of here first before this building burns down. And Andy's got his, he's due a farewell, like a return, come back to Wimbledon.

Torrey Hawkins (18:54.911)
Okay. Right, right, right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (19:06.044)
wow.

Torrey Hawkins (19:10.773)
Wow, okay.

Alvin Owusu (19:20.551)
in a suit and be recognized as Sir Andy Murray now that he's retired, right? Because his last match there was doubles with his brother last year, right? So I think with that forthcoming, relieve him of his coaching duties because I think we're done. I said it before and I'll say it again. I think we're done. I think he told, like hey, this is not going on past Wimbledon, so go ahead and make your summer plans.

Torrey Hawkins (19:23.79)
Sure. Sure.

Right.

Torrey Hawkins (19:40.215)
Well, you think he acknowledged that. Well, that's big. That's big.

Torrey Hawkins (19:50.275)
Wow. Right. Go on that vacay with the fam. I got it.

Alvin Owusu (19:50.587)
You get out of here first. I'll I'll fend I'll fend off the I'll fend off the press by myself You don't even want to be around for this

Torrey Hawkins (19:57.698)
Wow, okay. Hey, well said. could both are plausible. I actually would tend to agree with you more on that one. It's just hard for me to believe that he would acknowledge it in those terms, knowing Novak, the fighter, the contrarian that he is. Having said that, very plausible. And I like what you're thinking here.

Alvin Owusu (20:01.192)
Hey, I'm-

Torrey Hawkins (20:24.931)
And you are more than 10 toes in my friend. are, you have literally trapped, right? Man, you have locked in the skis, the boots into the skis on this one. mean, are 100%, it will take a nasty fall to break them things off. I get it. And again, it'll be fun to see. It'll be sad to see. Let me rephrase that. It'll be sad to see, be the end of an era. I feel like we're watching Serena's last US Open where

Alvin Owusu (20:27.081)
I've I've only I've only changed the tone. I'm still ten to I'm still down for this bit

Alvin Owusu (20:46.887)
Yeah, I'm not on-

Torrey Hawkins (20:53.963)
She was a shell of what she used to be. The fact that she was still out there at that age, still playing was phenomenal. But it was cool to see, father time is still undefeated, unfortunately. And to your point, you mentioned in a few episodes ago, that the scent has been swift. And it is for everyone. So that's the sad thing about it. I'm happy to see that the rest of the tour catch up in his descent.

Alvin Owusu (21:00.615)
Yeah, that was such a cool thing.

Alvin Owusu (21:12.733)
Yeah, it is for everyone. It always is.

Torrey Hawkins (21:21.795)
And hats off to Arnoldia and other players like him who are knocking off Novak. That's a career win, It's a career win of one of the best of all time. I want to finish one last comment for you and I want to share this with you. I saving one that you always say it's me. I'm saving for you. I want to read you a brief quote and I want to tell I want to ask if you agree with this quote or not. Okay.

Alvin Owusu (21:36.967)
Okay. All right.

Torrey Hawkins (21:50.88)
Here is the quote. I'm not going to tell you who it's from. I'm going to try to skip over the parts so you won't get any context clues. OK. Here it is.

Alvin Owusu (21:54.569)
Ooh.

Alvin Owusu (21:58.708)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (22:04.284)
Is there a such thing as a goat?

Torrey Hawkins (22:11.372)
Here it is.

The discourse around, I'm gonna say blank greatness, has always rested on shaky ground. It's built on moments, championships, and breathless comparisons that span eras too distinct to measure by a single scale. This is now where the quote comes in.

Torrey Hawkins (22:42.336)
me find it. There is not a greatest player. I'm gonna put myself in there if you're gonna call out a greatest player.

What makes Blank great? Was it because he had media gained MVPs?

blank player is great and didn't even put him on the all time team. I don't understand what people say when they say so-and-so is great when they're not even picked by their peers. Now this player is getting more into the specifics of the MVPs and what have you, but he, the article now goes on to say, has long challenged the narrative that this player, that player is great.

because of the numbers, stats, and championships that that player may have won at that time. And he is talking about the narrative of, is there even a such thing due to so much nebulous statistics, teams, what have you. for clarity, this was a

Alvin Owusu (23:56.476)
Okay, okay, okay.

Torrey Hawkins (24:02.475)
Team sports speaking about an individual.

Alvin Owusu (24:06.345)
Yeah, yeah. I was trying to figure out, is this a tennis thing? Like, no, this actually sounds like basketball. Sounds like basketball. This sounds like the LeBron James and Michael Jordan conversation.

Torrey Hawkins (24:20.127)
This player was actually putting in Jokic in the mix and about how good he was and wasn't even in the conversation. To my point, Scottie Pippen, by the way, was who this quote was for. Salty Scottie. But his point about the errors, the scale who picks, what are we measuring, right? Is worth, is the conversation, and we may even pick up on this one later. I just wanted to get your quick read.

Alvin Owusu (24:29.385)
Oh salty Scotty I oh yeah

Alvin Owusu (24:48.145)
Yeah, okay, so here are my thoughts on any goat-related conversation. I'll even bring this back to, it's relevant for both tennis and basketball, which are the two sports that are dearest to me, but specifically in the men's side of tennis between Novak Djokovic, Rafa Nadal, and Roger Federer, right? If we want to give a greatest of all time title to anyone, it would be easy.

to just look at the numbers and say, there is no argument, right? But we don't go to barbershops and have those types of conversations, right? The greatest of all time is a barbershop, sports center, Stephen A. Smith type of conversation, right? And I came up as a Federer guy. I lived and died with those Nadal Federer matches. And I started pulling for Novak at some point, so Roger wouldn't have to meet.

Torrey Hawkins (25:30.88)
100 %

Alvin Owusu (25:46.032)
roughly in the final of the Grand Slam, right? I was in it, I was in it. seven to like 2017 Alvin was in it. But I think it's a, it really comes down, it's more nuanced, it's more of a like, who is your greatest of all time? It's really more about your value system as a fan and as a tennis player to say who you feel the greatest.

Torrey Hawkins (25:46.664)
Row row row.

Alvin Owusu (26:13.449)
or who exemplified greatness the most or who tennis is built around as opposed to who won the most Grand Slams. That's pretty straightforward and that's not really a fun conversation to have, right? I'm sorry Scotty, you weren't even the best player on your own team. Let's not knock Scotty's greatness but let's not also like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (26:24.222)
Right. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (26:30.118)
Hahaha

for sure. The brother was bad. to your point, but to your point was not, was not, you know, I would have to put others, you know, in the mix. And basketball is such a different sport, to your point, I like to comment about different eras, different stats and what they meant on those teams. I think that's, while that's basketball specific, in tennis, I think the eras have been

in some ways conflicted and the irony of tennis is three of our best all overlapped in timeframe, right? With obviously Roger being the oldest and obviously Novak being the youngest, but they did have about a 10 year overlap, if not longer. But by 10, I'm being conservative because I'm speaking of 10 legitimate years, not-

Alvin Owusu (27:09.424)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (27:15.453)
Yeah, absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (27:21.305)
I would say the true overlap is Rafa because he had all that, he had that rivalry with Roger and then had a completely different rivalry with Novak, with more matches with Novak, which is insane.

Torrey Hawkins (27:23.615)
100 %

Torrey Hawkins (27:29.182)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (27:33.545)
with more matches, for sure. And so my point, so tennis to me is in that timeframe where all three of the grades played around the same time. And basketball hasn't had that while the 90s was some phenomenal basketball with all those grades that played around the same time. I just felt like tennis was a little different. And to be fair, there were four or five players in that timeframe that played during that would have went far more had those three not been in that, we've talked about that before.

Alvin Owusu (28:00.382)
the aforementioned Andy Murray.

Torrey Hawkins (28:01.905)
I just wanted to get your thoughts on it. Is there a goat? If so, why? And if not, why not? Because I think that's kind of a neat thought.

Alvin Owusu (28:08.585)
Well, okay, the job as a professional tennis player is to show up. I'm gonna say Serena is the goat, right? And if we're gonna now talk about the men's side, if the goal is to show up year in, year out, and be productive and win, then, and then also look at this at a very micro level of the goal of tennis. The goal of tennis is to make more shots than your opponent, right?

Torrey Hawkins (28:34.877)
than your opponent.

Alvin Owusu (28:36.573)
then no one's done it better than Novak Djokovic. No one has done it better than Novak Djokovic. Regardless of who's on the other side of the net, regardless of the era, whatever, right? Is he my favorite player of all time? No. I respect the hell out of him as a tennis player. He does tennis the best that anyone's ever done tennis. He is the analytics poster child of tennis. Like this is how you play and win tennis matches. Roger Federer makes me

Torrey Hawkins (28:50.707)
Hard not to.

Torrey Hawkins (29:03.454)
Right? Right?

Alvin Owusu (29:06.067)
feel something when he plays tennis. And that's why he is my...

Torrey Hawkins (29:07.295)
Yeah, it's an art form. The match should be played inside the Louvre, because it's the best exhibit in the place.

Alvin Owusu (29:18.281)
I mean, when you start thinking about like, had this, I have this running list of like weird things to ask you about, like kind of like one of them is like what matches in your lifetime, give me five matches that live rent free in your mind. And I like most of mine are Roger Federer matches. Some of them are specific shots, right? Novak Djokovic, I don't, I have a couple of them in there, but I know one in specific, Roger Federer was on the other side of the court. like.

Torrey Hawkins (29:29.125)
Mm.

Torrey Hawkins (29:36.101)
yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (29:44.614)
Right. I'm about to say, the only ones I can think of is when he played against him, know, against Rodger or Roth in that match.

Alvin Owusu (29:49.244)
Right, so, and maybe we'll talk to someone 10 years younger than me and maybe they'll have a different view on how they feel about Novak, but that's how I feel about the conversation. And the Rafa of it is just it's just a lot of respect, especially as a lefty and someone else. I also play with a bad block racket. It's like, I know how hard that all of what he does is and how impressive it is and the whole thing from start to finish.

But that's where I sit on it.

Torrey Hawkins (30:18.302)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (30:21.712)
I love it. I love it. just had to get that thought in there. Our next episode, I want to do a short on, and this is our last thing, Carlos Alcaraz and his coach Juan Carlos Ferreira. There was an article I read about Juan Carlos was questioning the work ethic of Carlos. And it really brought out a

old school mentality versus the millennial type, you younger type. And I wanted to, I wanted to pepper in the viewers on we're in a different space now. We're in a different mindset, both in the world at large, younger people now see things differently, work life balance, blah, versus the old school. You know, I would put myself in that category. Maybe you're right there on the fringe. I'm not sure, but we are certainly

coming into a bit of a where there's been a bit of a mind shift and it of course affects tennis as well. I want to pepper in an episode in the future about the differences, the mindset and what our thoughts are. And maybe that's one we'll as you like to say, we'll put a bow in it on that one. Because I feel like it's relevant for on court and off court. And I feel like it's also relevant in dealing with people from the different eras, know, as far as how we value work.

Alvin Owusu (31:35.027)
Okay, yeah, let's, yeah, let's...

Torrey Hawkins (31:47.729)
how we value success, you know, and to a large part of time. So Alvin is, it's a big one though, would you agree?

Alvin Owusu (31:52.285)
I got lots of space for that one. It is, it's not just about, when you talk about Carlos Acaraza in that specific vein, I also think about some things that I've said previously about Francis Tiafoe. this is a job, but tennis is also an entertainment product at this level. And I'm gonna leave it there. Tori.

Torrey Hawkins (32:20.145)
Yeah. Alvin, as always.

Alvin Owusu (32:21.374)
Always a pleasure. I'll see you on Saturday at the party and then we will jump on on Sunday and talk a little bit more about Rome as this tournament comes to an end. Yeah, best of three, we are out.

Torrey Hawkins (32:25.479)
great can't wait

Torrey Hawkins (32:31.271)
Can't wait.

Torrey Hawkins (32:36.743)
Peace.