Ep. 42: Patrick Parr & The Current State of Men's Tennis

Part 1

Alvin Owusu (00:03.359)
And welcome to another episode of the best three podcasts. I'm Alvin, but that's not Tory. That is author MLK historian, Catawba College alumni, alumni alumni. I don't know how they say it regardless. Patrick Parr, Pat, how you doing, buddy?

Patrick Parr (00:16.622)
you

Patrick Parr (00:21.422)
Hello Alvin, it's good to be with you. I am very excited to talk about what's been happening with tennis and to catch up with you, you know, because it's been 20 years or so.

Alvin Owusu (00:34.835)
It's been 20 years, it's been 20 years in real life, but you know, with the internet, it feels like I've seen everyone, I saw everyone last week. That's what it feels like.

Patrick Parr (00:42.074)
True, that's true. as long as you can keep up with that. For me it gets a bit overwhelming. I get in a storm a bit and I'm like, alright, I need to unplug a bit. But, anyway.

Alvin Owusu (00:52.915)
That's fair, that's fair. also have this, I also sometimes go on this tangent that social media killed the bachelor party.

Patrick Parr (01:02.19)
Yeah, yeah, well done.

Alvin Owusu (01:03.485)
Yeah, because back in the day, people used to go on bachelor parties and it's the first time they've seen their friends in a while and it's all very, but now it's very easy to stay connected, therefore it's very easy for us to like do things together for no reason. Like a 32nd birthday or something like that. So that's for another day, maybe another podcast, I don't know.

Patrick Parr (01:10.766)
You

Patrick Parr (01:23.34)
That's true. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I am notorious for being a little bit off off the grid quite a bit. So ask my wife. Yeah, that tends to be the way I go. Like no Instagram for me and a few other social media things. It's just it's just too much. It's too much for me. I can't take it.

Alvin Owusu (01:36.872)
Heh.

Alvin Owusu (01:48.019)
That's fair. mean, you are you are truly off. mean, you're on your own grid, but you're off my grid. You are calling your I've got you in right outside of Tokyo. Is that correct?

Patrick Parr (01:57.858)
That's right, that's right. Right outside. Been here about eight years. And I do go to the Japan Tennis Open here. Or Kinnoshita it's called. It's great because there's not a lot of people up around in the practice court. So like Alexey Papirin, I don't know if I'm saying his name right. But he was serving and I caught this one photo of him right at the peak of his...

Alvin Owusu (02:13.534)
Right.

Patrick Parr (02:27.842)
a jump and I thought I am like 10 feet away from this guy and I had that the whole week just it felt like it was so accessible.

Alvin Owusu (02:39.593)
So, I mean, you're speaking my love language. I'm all about a practice session, I mean any practice session, but especially at a tournament. And I also saw Alexei, I saw him play at Miami maybe last year, maybe the year before. Did you get the feeling watching him that he seems relatively uninterested in whatever's going on?

Patrick Parr (02:56.75)
Mmm.

Patrick Parr (03:04.91)
get that feeling from him, absolutely. But it's weird because when he is given a challenge, like when he was playing Djokovic a while back, there was this heightened sense that, okay, if I just give 110 % this match and I win it, then I'm gonna get headlines across the world. But then when that interest dissipates, when it goes away, his level just seems to drop.

Alvin Owusu (03:07.71)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (03:14.535)
Right, right, yeah.

Patrick Parr (03:34.864)
It's hit or miss with him, I feel. But I love the guy though, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (03:37.535)
I guess that's the, yeah, I mean that's the task of being a professional tennis player, right? It's not just winning big matches, it's also showing up at a 250 or 500 and winning those matches too, because it's a job. It's the email of professional tennis. You just gotta, you know, every week clock in.

Patrick Parr (03:51.63)
I

Patrick Parr (03:56.162)
Yeah. What? I gotta, I gotta ask at the jump, I gotta ask this question to you, because I've been thinking about it ever. So.

Alvin Owusu (04:03.923)
Yes, please. I love questions.

Patrick Parr (04:07.854)
Semi and Hau, they had Medvedev and Zverev and I was watching that pretty closely because I always like to watch Medvedev getting to Zverev's head eventually. It always happens. It's almost like clockwork. He's just waiting for Medvedev to sting in a way. But I was thinking about their careers. They're so parallel in a way, yet not. And I was wondering if...

Alvin Owusu (04:12.638)
Yes.

Alvin Owusu (04:35.048)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (04:37.808)
I was going to ask you, who do you think has had a more Hall of Fame career at this point? think Medvedev or Zverev? Medvedev.

Alvin Owusu (04:44.915)
That's a really good question, right? So we have a couple things happening here. Zverev has been bequeathed the title of best male player to have never won a Grand Slam, right? That is his new title at this point. whether or not I agree with that, I guess you can make that argument and make a strong one there. Okay, he's been number two in the world, a perennial top five player.

Patrick Parr (04:59.128)
You know.

Alvin Owusu (05:14.527)
He's been to a few Grand Slam finals, maybe three, has won none of them, lots of semis, won some masters, year in, yeah, Medvedev.

Patrick Parr (05:22.872)
True.

Patrick Parr (05:26.915)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (05:27.035)
Wanna Grant Slam. He also finaled one, two, three, four others? Three or four others?

Patrick Parr (05:30.83)
you

Patrick Parr (05:37.624)
Yeah, yeah, you... Very Roddick-like. Very Roddick-like.

Alvin Owusu (05:43.1)
Yeah, that's a comp. That's a really good comp actually. And so if you look at the best three years for either one of them, right, I'm a big three year peak kind of guy, I would say that it's Medvedev, because winning at Grand Slam means a lot. And he reached number one in the world as well, so he's won at Grand Slam, was number one for like two weeks. Those things matter. And he's made his mini-finals.

Patrick Parr (05:48.27)
you

Patrick Parr (06:01.176)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (06:08.674)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (06:11.399)
Semis, Ezreal right there. He's won a bunch of tournaments and he did it all kind of later, I guess later in his career. He wasn't like, know, right out of the pack, one of the top guys. So I'm gonna give it Hall of Fame. I don't think you can get in the Hall of Fame without winning in Grand Slam. One.

Patrick Parr (06:20.414)
That's true.

Patrick Parr (06:29.216)
Okay, that was my next question because here we are, you have Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, and Alcraz and Sinner just soaking up all the grand slams. And in my mind, we're in a new generation of players underneath those five, plus Murray and Warwinka. But I'm wondering...

How do we evaluate them? Because the Hall of Fame is going to get very bare. I feel that at this point we have to start thinking one slam is enough and maybe even year end might be enough or gold medal like Zverev in this way. No? Okay.

Alvin Owusu (07:10.609)
Yeah, mean, you're in no gold medal, mean, maybe, but probably not. It needs to be like a gold medal and some other things. Like if it's a toss up and you want a gold medal, then fine, you're in. I think that's a really interesting point though because the player's born after the big three plus the other two. Big four plus the other one.

before this generation of Alcaraz and Center, right, you have a bit of a void. That void goes all the way back to like Nishakori, right? Maybe even like, you have to include like Monfice in that space as well. Demetrov a little bit younger, but not much. And then that runs all the way up to the Zverevs and the Medvedevs and the Demonors. Like anyone kind of aged,

Patrick Parr (07:51.185)
yeah, absolutely.

Patrick Parr (07:57.997)
Yeah.

True.

Alvin Owusu (08:09.119)
currently age 36 to 26 ish, is walking around with no slamps, short of Medvedev and team.

Patrick Parr (08:14.222)
Yeah, that's about right, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (08:23.995)
I So I think Team Medvedev is an interesting comp actually. Like what do you like?

Patrick Parr (08:29.134)
That's good. Yeah, I didn't think about that one. with T, I feel it all hinges on the US Open, right? But he did make a French Open final. I... And just got thumped.

Alvin Owusu (08:44.369)
as people do.

Patrick Parr (08:45.87)
Right. in that way though, Medvedev's consistency to me has been a much bigger impact on the game. Whereas T-Main, not his fault at all, but he was injured and he had to go away for a couple years it seemed. Just fighting his way back through, you know, challengers, trying to get his stamina back. I really love watching that backhand.

Alvin Owusu (09:03.358)
Right.

Patrick Parr (09:14.222)
I think because when when when he hits that ball my god he is doing every fiber of his body because he's going into that shot and but with full throttle yeah he doesn't he doesn't know any other other way on that on that side whereas medvedev you just feel like sometimes his forehand is almost like a frisbee the way it just slides back and how he no no spin really at all

Alvin Owusu (09:24.479)
Full throttle, full throttle.

Alvin Owusu (09:38.111)
I

Alvin Owusu (09:41.619)
I've never heard of it referred to as a frisbee, but that, yeah. Yeah, it's.

Patrick Parr (09:44.398)
I just I was watching him the highlights with a public just now I Thought yeah medvedev. He hits that ball so flat and it ends up doing really well on grass I think it keeps that ball low, but medvedev's career has been pretty consistent. I feel he's he's battling really hard right now with motivation Same with Rublev. I think both of them they've lost the step and I don't know if it's whether or not they're

I just can't imagine playing without believing you belong or with other people considering that you're being represented with your country. there's so many, all that stuff goes, but sorry, I'm going away from your point, going back to the team, I would say that Medvedev overall has had much more of

Alvin Owusu (10:22.525)
Yeah... okay, okay.

Alvin Owusu (10:30.493)
No, I think that's an interesting one.

Patrick Parr (10:38.542)
substantial career.

Alvin Owusu (10:42.143)
Yeah, think team's issue is just gonna be like lack of body of work at the sustained level of greatness over, I think he was probably the team we remember for like three years, maybe. yeah. And Mevedev I think finaled his first Grand Slam in like 2019, 2018, I can't remember which year it was, but.

Patrick Parr (10:55.608)
Yeah, that's about right. Yeah.

Patrick Parr (11:05.046)
Right, 2019 final with Nadal in Australia. I think it was with Nadal, I wouldn't be sure. The one with Nadal went five, I remember. Right, right. so you might be right. think the US opens first.

Alvin Owusu (11:09.471)
Was the Australian one where, was that the first one or was US Open first?

Alvin Owusu (11:19.091)
I think but well he played a doll in both of them.

Yeah, but anyways, yeah, I.

Alvin Owusu (11:30.463)
Maybe US Open and then I think he might have finaled, I feel like he finaled Australia once, lost to Djokovic and then finaled Australia again, lost to Nadal, won the US Open in 2020, I think it 2021. I mean, yeah, but that was, you we're talking about six, seven years now. And he's still there, like he's still there. He's not one in the world, he's not three in the world, he's 10-ish right now, but he's still tough out.

Patrick Parr (11:43.693)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (11:50.702)
And he's still there.

Alvin Owusu (12:01.184)
Last time we spoke on our false start recording, we were talking about these, the new guys, the new two as they've been titled, Al Coraz and Center, and you started to tell me about how you think of tennis players as painters. So I wanted, I'm very, I've been waiting to hear you finish that thought, and now I wanna hear it now.

Patrick Parr (12:05.422)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (12:21.803)
you

Patrick Parr (12:26.542)
you

Okay, sure. Well, I've, especially the six we've just kind of previously mentioned, not many or any of them, but I would say that to start with Alcares right now to me is Van Gogh. He has this sort of style that story, story night painting. I would say that Alcares is Van Gogh and then I would go with Federer in

Alvin Owusu (12:53.503)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick Parr (12:58.402)
past as like Monet, somebody who is... when he Sunset in Venice, that type of painting, his Impressionism is sublime, feel, better. The way he managed himself, the class that he would always show the crowd at any moment, it's very Monet to me.

With Nadal it's very strange. There's this painter named Caravaggio and he has the... Okay, he's very famous for these up close, bulky type of paintings where there's bold colors and everything. So whenever...

Alvin Owusu (13:27.231)
Okay, yeah.

Patrick Parr (13:38.37)
Whenever Nadal does a Vamos, you know, like this, it's so Carvaggio. Like that part, I feel he's just so intense at all times. And the story that Agassi told in Roddick's podcast about Nadal fidgeting with the locker, right? I feel that Nadal is intense almost all the time. Probably with his family, he's all chugs, but on the court, yeah, it's, there's no messing around.

Alvin Owusu (13:43.091)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (13:54.849)
in the locker room. Yeah.

Patrick Parr (14:08.304)
Like Carpaggio.

Alvin Owusu (14:11.199)
Well, and the colors as well. Like Nike always dressed Nadal in like very vivid, bold color scheme. So that, I think that plays very well there with the artist comp.

Patrick Parr (14:21.442)
That's it, that's it. With Djokovic, it's been interesting. I feel much like switching it almost every year, but I do settle on one and it's this Jackson Pollock.

painting. you know he's the guy who dripped the paint onto the canvas quite a bit and by the end of it you just you don't really see a an actual design at first. Well some art experts they do but Olloc is all about bringing out bringing out chaos and then trying to disguise it as order.

I feel, I feel Pollock and Djokovic, especially when Djokovic is playing the doll in Federer, there is this feel that he has to be like Pollock in order to get them off their games because they both have such clear visions of who they are as players. So Djokovic was the one, I think he really started maybe this distortion age that's really, that's really been starting to hit other players like Bublik, I feel is just.

Alvin Owusu (15:19.997)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (15:30.99)
He's a distortionist at this point. He will go into a match and he will use that first set to put you in another world. He'll say, he just did that to Medvedev, the other Distorter. I thought Djokovic is the one who really brought that in. He was the first Chaos Maker at that point.

Alvin Owusu (15:55.296)
Okay, what do you, I'm take a little break here. We'll get to the center and a caress of it in a second. But the distortionist, what do you, okay, when you say that, what specifically within the game style are you teasing out? Because I hear that and I think players that you cannot predict, they're gonna do things a little bit.

Patrick Parr (15:55.768)
So those are some of them.

Patrick Parr (16:03.64)
Sure,

you think so? Okay. Why?

Alvin Owusu (16:22.067)
differently so are you speaking kind of towards their personality or towards their game style because Mevadev is fairly predictable almost to a fault

Yeah, mean he's gonna hang. mean, grass is different, right? So grass is a shit show all the time, but generally the bag on Meti is like he's gonna just wait you out. He's gonna hang back and just kinda grind you down.

Patrick Parr (16:38.4)
Yes.

Patrick Parr (16:49.954)
But he's going to make you self-conscious about it. That's why he wins. I think he wins, But he wins because you're becoming, in a way, meta as you play him. You're thinking, my god, is he standing this far back? why is the ball is coming a half second later than usual? So now I have to, when I hit that shot, I'm going to double, I'm going to double think. I'm not sure where I'm going to put it. And right there, that's where he has you.

Alvin Owusu (16:53.599)
Well sure, sure, yeah.

Patrick Parr (17:19.948)
He has you thinking in a way that is different than others. That's his strength, think. More than waiting out points. That's the part of distortion I'm talking about. Getting you out of your head psychologically.

Alvin Owusu (17:33.279)
Okay, I feel either.

Alvin Owusu (17:39.657)
And that's actually, that's booblick to a T, so that one checks as well. Yeah, I...

Patrick Parr (17:41.376)
Yeah.

I think he doesn't and this is the year, right? This is the year for him. So,

Alvin Owusu (17:50.676)
This is the year for him. I think we were chatting about Booblick maybe a month ago. And then he does his dance at the French Open and then takes out center this week. it's like, okay, maybe he's found the right balance of focus and chaos that he can manage. And then he becomes a very, because he's a, mean, big serve, big game.

Patrick Parr (18:13.484)
I think so. Yeah. Huge. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (18:20.869)
nice touch, good mover. I mean, he has all the tools. just kinda, he has to put them together all within a given match, within a given week, and that's happening this summer thus far.

Patrick Parr (18:31.726)
Mmm.

Patrick Parr (18:36.362)
It is, it is. I just watched him take care of Medvedev. I've never seen him hit that forehead as hard as he is right now. I feel the grass really accompanies his game right now. And he said it in pressers too. I think his family is really starting to root him to an identity that he's comfortable with. So he's... but...

Alvin Owusu (18:59.891)
Yeah, that's such an interesting, that's an interesting point because going all the way back to Andy Roddick, I always thought of Andy as a bit of a brash, of, not quite a jerk, but he could be a little rough around the edges, especially in matches that he lost during the press conferences, right?

Patrick Parr (19:26.378)
yeah, absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (19:26.905)
and he famously had the Reebok Fig Jam shoe that I wore in college, but it was very much an erotic to a T. But after he got married, you started to see a certain calmness about him, which I think happens to everyone, right? Once things in your life start to settle, you professionally start to settle. As a person, you start to settle, come together. And you see it all the time.

Patrick Parr (19:31.692)
That's right.

Patrick Parr (19:54.766)
That is so overlooked by the media. Maybe they're too sensitive to talk about it, but I feel that the big three, had rocks. People and a team that supported them, especially their wives. Federer had Merca, right? And Nadal's wife was...

maybe not always at the matches, they were very close. And of course Djokovic. So I feel that once a tennis player gets...

gets that community around them, that box. I often tell my wife that when a tennis player has this massive crowd around them, they're not really playing to the crowd, they're playing to their team a little bit more.

Alvin Owusu (20:47.305)
Hmm. Okay.

Patrick Parr (20:48.334)
So I know we get this look and all that and that's a nice performance, which by the way, I don't like. I don't like this, but I don't like it. I'm going to go on the record and say that I don't like this because... Can you imagine? All right, I guess we'll go to that. But I think that Federer, when Federer would win a point...

Alvin Owusu (20:58.27)
you don't like it? man!

Alvin Owusu (21:06.106)
Wow.

Patrick Parr (21:18.104)
he would let that point stand. He would let it just be the art that it was. Whereas calling us to cheer, I just, feel it. It's this expectation that I don't want as a fan. like, I am, I'm invested. Why are you telling me to do it more? So that for me, Algraz, he...

Alvin Owusu (21:38.975)
I mean, there are instances in which, yeah, go ahead, no, ahead, continue, continue.

Patrick Parr (21:43.758)
Well, Elvira has an ability to make it charming, I think. But other players, when they do it, it looks a little bit desperate. Like Draper. Draper, just don't do anything Draper. Just win the point, go back, and let's just keep rolling with it, I feel. Maybe that's what I'm saying.

Alvin Owusu (22:03.842)
Be British. Just be British.

Alvin Owusu (22:08.927)
I said it. You don't have to take the heat. I said it.

Patrick Parr (22:11.758)
Right, yeah, I'll take it though. But because I think Draper, he's figuring out how he feels about the crowd right now, because now he's just got all this shine going on him right now.

but Draper has got some work to do on performance wise. I think if he just does nothing, will be loved. He just needs to keep it in within himself. Anyway, yeah, but going back to Alcraz, he can make it charming, I think other players, actually don't mind what, Sinner does it a little bit, but he doesn't do it too much. Whereas Medvedev,

He flips it on its head. You know if he feels like he's getting Hated he'll be like yeah, how about you know? How about now guys? How do you like me now? And there is this there's a challenge to the crowd out that I don't mind but Yeah, it's this isn't it's the new generation. It's the way of calling to the crowd

Alvin Owusu (23:13.139)
Well, okay, how about, okay, maybe there's a nuanced difference that we're talking about here when it comes to crowd engagement. So Rafa would do his big vamo's and his big fist pumps and the crowd would go crazy, right? Every once in a while when Fed would hit a great shot, he, like, I mean, there's one famously where he hits it and he's like, know, hits the finger wag and there's a few of those, like, or.

Patrick Parr (23:38.83)
That's right.

Alvin Owusu (23:41.092)
when he hit the tweener on Ash and right in front of Michael Jordan, and then goes like nuts. There have been some, but I guess that is excitement and then we join in on the excitement as opposed to this symbiotic call and response that we're getting. I don't hate it because I feel like, mean, those who are not us,

Patrick Parr (23:44.856)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (24:03.086)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (24:10.503)
I tennis is somewhat boring, so I feel like someone like an Alcaraz who brings you into the thing, like you see on his face.

Patrick Parr (24:16.652)
Yeah, no, I...

I think it's important. It's important to do, but as somebody who's been watching tennis for almost 30 some years, I think non-stop. I just can't believe that that is happening now, but I see it as a gateway, as opening a door to a new fan to say, now's the time. Come closer. This moment's also for you.

Alvin Owusu (24:48.323)
yeah, yeah, yeah, it's cool. Alcaraz makes tennis cool. this is, I feel like this is a, this is an Alcaraz thing we're talking about because he, people who don't watch tennis, when they see him play tennis, they go, that's different, that's exciting. I wanna know more about this. And then he gives them the, and it's like, yes, I do wanna, I do wanna come into this house. This is great, this is fun.

Patrick Parr (24:55.96)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (25:06.446)
you

Patrick Parr (25:12.366)
That's true. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, with maybe let's go to Alcara's The Center a bit just to how, yeah, I know maybe you've already talked about it too much, but the French Open final, when I...

Alvin Owusu (25:16.883)
This is fun. And he's like, yeah, come on. This is fun.

Alvin Owusu (25:25.065)
Let's do.

Alvin Owusu (25:33.053)
I can't talk about it enough.

Patrick Parr (25:36.16)
I still replay the 6-5 game in my head over and over and over again. And I think we talked about it a little bit the last time, but it didn't get up. It was that defense to offense point that he did. To me, that stretch and then turns it directly into a backhand cross court winner. To me, I thought new era of tennis here.

Alvin Owusu (25:52.083)
Yeah, with the squash forehand in the corner.

Patrick Parr (26:06.164)
are a new era like right there at that point to for Van Gogh to defeat AI in that way I think

Alvin Owusu (26:20.233)
Sitter is the algorithm.

Patrick Parr (26:23.146)
So Sinner is the algorithm, Alvin. He is. He is the guy who you watch him and you just see almost nothing but calculation, it seems. I don't want to turn him into too much of a droid on the court. know he just did a recording with Andrea Bocelli, right? mean, he's got emotion and pathos and all that stuff.

Alvin Owusu (26:45.919)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (26:50.446)
I think Sinner is truly AI. I can't give him a painting yet. I just can't. I can't give him a painter because I feel he's far more worried about adapting his game. But the strange thing is the more I watch Sinner, especially on grass and clay, the more I believe that man will never...

be able to win on those two surfaces consistently. He might have one year spike, but I just can't see him adapting enough, especially grass, to challenge out grass anytime soon.

Alvin Owusu (27:33.152)
So I'm with you on the grass court. There's a lot of things, like he's almost the perfect tennis player if you take soul out of the equation, right? And where hard court is very, very straightforward. Like the ball returns what you give it, it's very straightforward. Clay has some level of unpredictability and some level of needing to come up with

Patrick Parr (27:40.195)
you

Patrick Parr (27:44.184)
Whoa, yeah, yeah.

Patrick Parr (27:55.214)
That's right.

Alvin Owusu (28:02.788)
more stuff because doing the thing that you normally do does not, it just doesn't have the same result because the points are so much longer. Now, I say that, he was up many a match point in the final of French Open, so I'm not gonna go as far as to say I don't think he'll ever win that one. But.

Grass Court requires a couple of things, and maybe three or four things. He's got them all minus the creativity. Grass Court's for shop makers, making weird shots at weird places. That used to be the serve and the volley, and it is turned into, because the grass has gotten slower, they're playing ping pong in there, I mean a pinball, but you need to be comfortable going fast, and then like,

Patrick Parr (28:32.717)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (28:50.872)
Alvin Owusu (28:53.343)
coming up with something very imaginative at the end and often. So I think it's oddly like Alcaraz's like best surface because of the lack of predictability. Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Parr (29:09.934)
I think it also favors the three to four shots at the beginning, right? You got that serve and the forehand to dictate and then at that point, that's really where that pinball comes in. I think for center, he loves to construct the point a bit more. He loves to make it go back and forth, maybe six or seven shots and then...

give the final blow. But I think in most cases, grass court allows you to at that fourth shot, that four shot better be either a winner or straight to the corner flat, low bounce. And I'm a good, I'm to come in and approach and then take it to the other side. It's center. I, I'm not sure if he's even interested in playing that way. I have.

Alvin Owusu (30:03.007)
Interesting. you ever played on grass? I feel a question. Where did you... This is a...

Patrick Parr (30:06.848)
No, I have, it was a...

It was a junior tournament actually and it was called the Hall of Fame tennis champion. It was in Ohio. I was in the 18 and unders and I realized when I was on there, I was playing there that they... my god, if I hit this ball and flat without any topspin, it's gonna just shoot real low below the knees of the player and then I just started to slice, slice, slice all the time.

Alvin Owusu (30:42.911)
That was the beginning.

Patrick Parr (30:43.064)
we used to say in yeah in at kataba i was the guy who as eric knoll hi eric if any if he's all right he you think so so that yeah

Alvin Owusu (30:51.327)
he's listening. He's definitely listening. I know. I know. know.

Patrick Parr (30:58.38)
Yeah, so I would bring down that Chop. So I would be the Chop artist, I guess. anyway, I don't think I've played enough on grass to really call myself an expert. I I listen to experts and I played a little bit myself to know how that ball skids. But maybe you, what about you? Have you?

Alvin Owusu (31:19.069)
No, no, no. I played on grass one time for about an hour at the aptly named tennis hall of fame in Rhode Island. I was up there for an event. Yeah, I was up there for an event and then we ended up having some time at the end of the day. another coworker and I went out there and hit for about an hour and it was like the things I noticed, like same thing ball does not come up past the knees and, your, my hips were on fire at the end cause you're, you're so low for so long.

Patrick Parr (31:36.76)
you

Patrick Parr (31:48.216)
Yes! Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (31:49.564)
Yeah, so it really favors, I mean, they always say it favors athletes, right? Like you have to be an athlete, an athletic mover to do well and be able to come up with those type of penetrating shots from a very low position with a ball that's not coming up.

Patrick Parr (32:01.006)
you

Patrick Parr (32:06.926)
And that's what made Federer so great, right? mean, on that surface, his squash-like skill that he had as a kid, right? I mean, that quick wrist, just the way to pick that ball up, that was perfect for him. But I think with Nodal, though, and Fed, when they were at Wimbledon...

Alvin Owusu (32:15.612)
Right.

Patrick Parr (32:31.712)
I did you notice that at the beginning of Fed's career, the grass was a bit more permanent, but then it would wear down. And it almost felt like a clay court match by the time Nadal was starting to dominate on that service. I know that Wimbledon in the past was getting some slack for having just one, two shot rallies all the time. And then they started to change the grass and Nadal's forehand suddenly became just as effective on.

Alvin Owusu (32:53.213)
Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Parr (33:01.678)
a grass court as it almost says it was in Roland Garros and that bothered me a bit. I felt like Nothall was playing on a grass court but bringing his clay mentality.

Alvin Owusu (33:04.774)
Right, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (33:18.089)
Yeah, mean, there were, I guess, two things happening at the same time, right? Like, it all was getting better and better on grass each year, and then the grass itself was slowing down as well each year. So, like, they hit a, I guess a, not a crescendo, but once those two worlds met, like, now you start getting those, a rivalry that traveled, if you will, that could happen, like, truly happen on different surfaces, which,

Patrick Parr (33:24.974)
Pops.

Patrick Parr (33:43.916)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (33:47.986)
I don't know, net positive for the sport. I miss specialists. I miss specialists, but I think we're pretty far past those days for a lot of reasons outside of court conditions. The strings, the technology, the rackets, it all contributes to these six four monsters that can move on all surfaces and do everything everywhere.

Patrick Parr (33:51.118)
Way too long.

Patrick Parr (34:03.916)
Okay.

Patrick Parr (34:07.864)
you

Patrick Parr (34:12.438)
That... Alright, I got two more questions and I would love to hear what you think on that. There I was watching Bublik play Medvedev and 6-5 player playing a 6-6 player. And as much as I loved Sinner and Alcaraz, I kept thinking, are we in an era now where the top 10 in the 2030s, they'll all be 6-5 and up?

I'm little worried about that.

Alvin Owusu (34:41.983)
I mean, we're pretty close. We're pretty close, right? I mean, I don't know what the number is, specific number is, but I would imagine most players in the top 10 are over 6'2". Like, Altgraz is kind of short. I think he's 6'6'1".

Patrick Parr (34:56.025)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well that... Maybe partly, maybe partly why we love watching them so much. Because it's almost like the curry, curry bit. If curry was 6'10", I mean do we love them as much? So...

Alvin Owusu (35:01.503)
It's kind of short.

Alvin Owusu (35:11.227)
Right, right, yeah. But yeah, all these guys, yeah, Center's pretty tall. He's like 6'3", 6'4", maybe. But yeah, Zverev, Medi, Bublik, mean, a little further back. But mean, Sits Pass is not short. Jack is tall, like yeah, it's just, if one can move laterally to the corners of a fixed size court, then I would rather take

two steps than three, you know? We're hitting the point now where these guys are moving so well and the technology is allowing them to do things that short guys can't, it just doesn't work. It doesn't work anymore.

Patrick Parr (35:43.886)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (35:52.745)
Right. When I was at my peak, like a 21...

22 years old. I remember in the summer I was playing this one one guy I won't say his name, but I was in the clay court final of this Florida small Florida tournament in Vero Beach and this guy he was about 780th ranked in the world or something. That's what they were saying and he brought these This is kind of random. This is off this off topic my apologies, but they

Alvin Owusu (36:26.505)
We have no topics here.

Patrick Parr (36:29.744)
So I'm playing the guy and my dad was watching at the time and I was crushing that ball as hard as I possibly could because I knew that with this guy was and I thought the only way I'm gonna have any chance of getting some games off this guy is if I just you know do as much as I possibly can on every shot and he was about 6'4 6'5 and every time I hit a ball I felt like

I just I you know I beat in the air like you know now I wish I was like Alcraz but as much as Alcraz is jumping I was just That ball the dude wasn't moving it seemed like he was just this Tarantula who just had the entire baseline covered almost at all time and I would blast his forehead and he'd be like one two all right I didn't know what to

Alvin Owusu (37:20.52)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (37:26.877)
Right, yeah.

Patrick Parr (37:29.584)
knew at that point, but I feel that that's happening with those doll players now. They just get everything. I just feel so bad when I see shorter players play Menvedev. I know what they're going through. On a much lower level.

Alvin Owusu (37:49.491)
from personal experience.

Patrick Parr (37:54.658)
personal experience.

Alvin Owusu (37:57.086)
Yeah, it makes the geometry of our sport where everything, the court is very long, so if you can't get past the baseline, get your ball past the baseline and through your opponent, when these big guys back up and they just get locked into these long rallies, you can see it. The answer is somewhere off the side of the court, but you gotta be able to find that angle somewhere. And that's what Alcaraz does. He'll use the drop shot.

Patrick Parr (38:23.134)
You get the right...

Alvin Owusu (38:26.249)
He'll push them back, he'll come in and find the angle. He is a highlight reel waiting to happen, but he is also a tactician exploring all planes of the tennis court at all times.

Patrick Parr (38:40.27)
And when he plays Sinner, it is so clear that Sinner doesn't give him an option. when Outgrass is not given an option, he usually, that's when he thrives. It's when he's in the moment where, I have to make two or three different decisions at this point. Do I want to do this, this, or this? Which will make the audience erupt or something like that? I feel he has those moments where he's...

beatable with most players but with center since he plays such forceful tennis Alcárez has he's like okay I have to do this and then he does it it's incredible

Alvin Owusu (39:24.009)
That's the, yeah, he seems to be, and that's why I think he's the best grass court player on tour because grass is chaotic. It's very, just shoot him up. What can you come up with? It's almost like an all, it's like the all-start game of tennis. It's not a real season. There's like, you're gonna play like 10 days on grass the whole year and then at the end of it, there's a grand slam. So everyone, good luck. There are no good grass court players.

Patrick Parr (39:34.114)
That's it. Well done.

Alvin Owusu (39:53.312)
We're all just making it up. The weird thing, and I may be off of my numbers by a little bit, but not much. Not to keep harping on Alcaraz, but I think what he's doing right now is really special. He's something on like an 18, 17 match win streak, something like that. He hasn't lost in a while.

Patrick Parr (40:22.142)
Just one Queens?

Alvin Owusu (40:23.357)
It's been a while. Yeah, one Queens, obviously one French Open right before that, one Rome before that, final Barcelona, one Monte Carlo. like, he's kind of just like.

He's doing something right now. He's doing something really interesting right now. So as we move into grass, obviously the draw will come out later on this week, what's your gut telling you is gonna go down at the Alt England Club?

Patrick Parr (40:47.086)
I think at Wimbledon we're gonna have a bit of of let down, I think. I don't think that Sinner and Alcara's will... I just don't see them meeting in the final.

again because I think there was a certain potency to their last matchup that they're still reeling from and that just won't be able to come back to us maybe until a future Grand Slam. I think Djokovic is waiting, he's repairing whatever injuries he's got and I just see him taking it this time and I don't know how

popular that take is but I wouldn't I think you've said on previous podcasts that you think Djokovic is gonna when you were talking to Tory that he was he's going to retire after Wimbledon and I think if he wins that's that's a certainty I agree

Alvin Owusu (41:53.448)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (42:01.392)
I would love to see it. I would love to see it in that, I'd like to be right, but it would be so poetic. It would be so poetic. The man with no home. He's won the most Australian Opens of anyone. He's won a few French's. He's won a few US Opens. He is, I think, for the most Wimbledon's ever, maybe with Fed, right up there. But he's not, Fed belongs to Wimbledon.

Patrick Parr (42:13.934)
you

That's

Alvin Owusu (42:30.439)
necessarily and the same thing with the Australian Open, like he's won the most there but they also deported him at one point. he is a man with no home. But it's interesting, like I just feel like he's right there. Like he's right there, he's the third best tennis player in the world probably. He struggles with center but.

Patrick Parr (42:51.63)
This is true.

Alvin Owusu (42:58.963)
like everyone besides Alcaraz does. And then he did beat Alcaraz last time they played. So what does that all mean coming into Wimbledon? He also got to the final Wimbledon on one leg last year. I am so, I am so interested in this era of Djokovic where he's not a top seed. It's just like where is he gonna land in the draw? Like whose week is he about to poop on? And

Patrick Parr (43:22.022)
I'm not

Alvin Owusu (43:29.707)
Which is kind of like how he started his career. Like when he started his Ascension, he was the third guy, right? So it's like, well, which half of the draw is he gonna fall on? Is he gonna fall on the dolls or Federer's? now we're in the same thing. We're in the exact same place. Whose quarter is he gonna fall in? Are we gonna get center versus Novak in the quarters? Are we gonna get Alcara's versus Novak in the quarters? is Novak gonna go through all top players to get to the end and win the Grand Slam?

this is what he's supposed to do. He is like Jon Snow trying to kill everyone at the end and he's probably gonna die in the process but whatever. He's going for it and I think he's still a threat. I think he's still the second best, he has the second best chance of winning this thing but a lot of that depends on where he falls in the draw.

Patrick Parr (44:02.218)
not sure

Patrick Parr (44:24.27)
Wimbledon is it for him. I don't think he can endure five set marathons like in the US Open and when the heat is insane. Whereas with Wimbledon, it favors old people. always remember Jonas Bjorkman made the semi finals of Wimbledon. And if he can make the semis, Jokvich can make the semis, it's just he has to keep those

Alvin Owusu (44:40.285)
Yes. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (44:45.256)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (44:55.643)
low impact and then when he plays Alcaz I really hope the crowd goes strongly for Alcaz so that Djokovic can I'm gonna give you some nightmares but I always remember in 2011 when Federer was up 40-15 5-3 and a fifth and you know and Djokovic starts nodding he's like oh I see I see you guys want I see who you want I see and then he just blasts that winner and I

Alvin Owusu (45:16.392)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (45:24.0)
I think Djokovic is at his chaotic best if he's got a sense that the crowd doesn't really want him.

Alvin Owusu (45:34.185)
That would make for, so that bit of theater would make for an interesting match, let's say if he played Draper in the quarters.

Patrick Parr (45:34.68)
Bye.

Patrick Parr (45:42.61)
yeah, absolutely yes yes I hope that happens that would be fantastic yes yep if he plays Draper and then everyone's like no it's gotta be Draper it's gotta be Draper don't mess with his his rise and then Jokers was like no this is where like you said the poop comes in

Alvin Owusu (45:46.643)
Right? Right?

Alvin Owusu (45:51.891)
Yeah, that would be good.

Alvin Owusu (46:03.679)
And I keep saying this to people, it's like Djokovic is the, like on grass, he is like the old guy playing pickup that's just gonna go back to the basket like on these young dudes. Like he can't do that on hardcore because they can all run around and hit the ball, right? But grass is that one surface that it's a nice combination of.

Patrick Parr (46:19.118)
I used to I it the but now I'm the past. I to do it in but now I'm past. I'm doing doing I'm I'm I'm I'm it doing it I'm but I'm it I'm doing it I'm

Alvin Owusu (46:31.539)
You don't get a lot of time on it, right? Like you might play, you'll play one warmup event, you might play two, but if you're playing two, you didn't do well on the first one, And he's played on it for so long, like he doesn't even play warmup events anymore. He'll screw around at the boodles event and then rock up, hit for a week at the All-Lincoln Club and he's ready to go. And he can do things to these players

on grass that really shuts down their ability to make him run. He literally finaled this tournament on one leg last year. So I feel like this is the one where he can like kind of hook and ladder his way through the draw and then get to the middle of the second week and then we're looking at him playing against one of those top four seeds potentially. Like imagine Taylor Fritz against Novak in the quarters, like, cause that could happen.

Patrick Parr (47:09.408)
That's it.

Patrick Parr (47:24.01)
you

Patrick Parr (47:30.286)
Do I want to imagine Taylor Fritz playing Novak? I'm sorry but Taylor Fritz Taylor Fritz Taylor Fritz See the think with

Alvin Owusu (47:44.871)
Taylor just won a tournament he he won it he won an event last week he seems healthy What's your what's your beef with Taylor?

Patrick Parr (47:52.206)
I don't want it to be beef but every time he plays him just this big high stakes match after it you know I always watch the post match interviews and

I wanted to process the match with a little bit more detail, but he always says, I just didn't serve well. You know, I didn't serve, you know, and he always thinks it's on his racket just to serve. Like, I didn't serve well. The game is so much more complex and I know you know that and we know that. Just play it out.

Let us know that you are thinking about the combinations that joke which is thrown at you and that you're you're not responding to I I feel Fritz Doesn't show the work he puts in in in the interviews after the match But I'm frustrated by his game. I've always been frustrated. He just he's a little I know he's owning sir. It's a bear at this point, but

I feel he and Zverev, they have the same orbit of mentality. Where they just, when they hit that shot, it's not close enough to the baseline, or the sideline. They need to take a little bit more risk and be a little bit more unpredictable. They need more distortion, is what they need.

Alvin Owusu (49:04.999)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (49:16.671)
Well, they need more distortion. How about this, let's take a break and then we'll come back and wrap up. I've got a few more things I wanna talk to you about, but this is where I plug in ads, like if they actually existed.

PART 2

Alvin Owusu (00:04.475)
Are we back? I don't know. I'm not sure if we're back I can't I can't really tell but regardless we are back. I'm still Alvin that's still Pat So before the break we were we were chopping it up and we were talking about I figured well what we were talking about

Patrick Parr (00:05.9)
Yes.

Alvin Owusu (00:23.099)
We were talking about Taylor Fritz. We were talking about Taylor. And Taylor being the American version of Sasha Zverev. The things that we talk about, we talk about it like it's very simple. Like, hey, you should try to get the ball to go off the side of the court as opposed to through the baseline all the time. And be a little more cerebral about why you're losing tennis matches to some of the greatest tennis players of all time.

Patrick Parr (00:23.572)
yeah, right. Yes, Taylor,

Alvin Owusu (00:52.655)
So I fully am aware that tennis is hard. These guys are very, these are the best players in the world, right? So it is, the things that we are talking about as being fairly obvious are very hard to actually execute. With that being said, don't, Tigers don't change their stripes. I think that's kind of, this is why the ones that are special are special because it's so.

hard to just be good and a lot of players are good and to be great you have to be special. That's what I see.

Patrick Parr (01:25.642)
With Taylor, you're...

Alvin Owusu (01:32.491)
with Taylor, with Sasha, with Rublev, like all these guys. Like it's just hard to be great. And these guys are really, really, really, really good. And maybe that's just good enough. Someone's gotta be number 10 in the world.

Patrick Parr (01:38.702)
That's true. That's true.

I think with someone like Tommy Paul, I love watching Tommy Paul play. And I feel that his game is unique enough that when he doesn't play someone for quite some time and then he goes up against them, that first set is usually his. It's to a point where they're like, my god, these ground strokes are so different than this other player. And Paul also runs down shot.

and he's able to vary his game maybe to a fault. Paul is able to get as much as he can out of it. So I almost feel...

that his career and how he has laid it out. I put him above Fritz as far as ceiling is concerned. I think he's got one and a half, two more years of something going on there that we'll be happy to follow. I think with, since we're on Americans, think Tiafoe.

This has been a good year. Last year was good, but this year I feel there is maybe a motivational thing going on. I don't know. I'm worried about Tiafos' passion at this point.

Alvin Owusu (03:15.834)
You know, this comes up a lot and I start to take a step back and go, okay, you could strive to be literally the best tennis player in the world. You could aspire to be one of the best 10 players in the world, right? But if you're like 20, man, that's a really good job. Like it's a really good job.

Patrick Parr (03:31.572)
That is,

Alvin Owusu (03:45.563)
You travel the world, play tennis, you work outside. And I think because of, and you see the same thing, you see it in the NBA, right? I think we've gotten to a point where people, when players make, when they cross a certain threshold of money made, in the NBA it's salary and then it's prize money on the tennis tour, but after a certain point it's like,

It's a good job. Like it's a really good job. And this is a cool life. And the goal is, for some, is to win Grand Slams. And I think everyone would like to win a Grand Slam. But if you're not really in Grand Slam contention, the goal is just stay out there as long as you can, Keep living this life.

Patrick Parr (04:34.328)
Well done.

Yeah, true. You're right. You're right. I guess when I compare comparison is not the right way to go at this point. Especially with tennis players who are all individualists at this point. And like you're saying, getting the most out of that 10 year slice that they can. So that's true. That's true. That said, back. That said,

Alvin Owusu (04:56.079)
Yeah.

Patrick Parr (05:05.103)
I love watching Tiafoe play, but the spirit that he's playing with these last six, seven months...

There's something missing in this game. It's also with Rublev, it's also with Medvedev. I think there is a certain turning of the corner. Maybe you're right, maybe it has to do more with, okay, I've accepted who I am on the tour, and this is enough. I've made my money, I've made my sponsorships, my deals. This is good, this is a good life, and it's true.

Who am I some some guy living in Japan right to say you know hey, you know you're not playing with as much passion as I should I should check myself, but I think in that still as a fan. I want to see Tiafoe At least in the public sphere fall in love with the game again

Alvin Owusu (05:49.21)
Haha.

Patrick Parr (06:12.398)
Maybe he's sitting there, if he's listening to this, my apologies. But I think he's so fun to watch. He and Alcares, when they play, my god. I'll set aside everything to watch that.

Alvin Owusu (06:23.161)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (06:28.334)
Yeah, they make good tennis. Like they just make good tennis. there are certain, mean Alcaraz plus a lot of people make good tennis. But those two, the court coverage, the shot making, the crowd engagement, like it is what you look for. with him, and I'll even go back to Rublev, I have this thought that players have a three year peak, right?

Patrick Parr (06:52.334)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (06:57.922)
when you get to your high, no one stays at their career high forever, right? Francis went for it, kinda backtracked, and then like two years ago, like went for it, and he kept climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing, got into the top 10. I think he got into the top 10 before, maybe before Taylor did, I can't remember, but those guys were all kinda like poppin' in and out of the top 10. But he got there, and then he hit the wall of like maybe top eight.

Patrick Parr (07:17.578)
you

think so.

Alvin Owusu (07:27.874)
and couldn't go any further. So what happens there? If you hit a glass ceiling, right, the only thing that can happen is for you to come down, and he's not necessarily coming backwards. There are other players whose ceiling is higher, who are younger, who are just coming up and then slowly starting to push you down, like the Jakub Mincek or the Jalton Sekas. I use those guys as examples a lot because they're quite young, but.

Patrick Parr (07:52.11)
It's not funny.

Alvin Owusu (07:56.953)
That's what happens in this game. Like players show up and then they get to a certain spot and then if they don't keep going, like all the way to number one, eventually people will pass them and they will keep falling. Sitsipass is a great example, right? I think he got to world number three? He's not, and he's literally the same player. So what happened? Everyone else just got, just showed up and they were better.

Patrick Parr (08:16.504)
Yeah, he was up there.

Alvin Owusu (08:26.146)
So now he's like 20, I don't know, like how it goes.

Patrick Parr (08:29.038)
I know Rude just had a problem with his knee and he's gonna be, taking a few months but do you think Casper Rude is similar in that regard? Do you think he's like Sysapass, like he had his window, he did a couple French Open finals, he did a US Open final. Can Rude challenge in the future? No? Okay.

Alvin Owusu (08:51.84)
No, I don't think so. I think it's kind of the same thing. It's kind of the same thing. Actually very much so the same thing. Because he doesn't have the, he doesn't have the high end that let's say Taylor Fritz has because of the serve and the big forehand. But Casper's, mean Casper I think will be a top 20 player for as long as he decides to play. But his opportunity to win at Grand Slam has come and gone. Yeah, those days.

And he even lamented as much. He and Sitsipas both spoke before the French Open talking about how the game has changed. I think this was actually during the Australian Open that they have seen the game change while they've been on tour. And that's just like in the last eight years. Not even that long, seven years? But that's real. Like that's real. And when players behind you are watching you on TV as juniors, right, like this is the.

Patrick Parr (09:19.886)
you

Patrick Parr (09:40.984)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (09:47.705)
This is the Fonseca-Minsik argument, right? Those guys are 17, 18 years old. They were 13 when Alcaraz won his first Grand Slam. So they saw it on television while they were becoming players. So the way they play tennis is influenced by the top of the game, and now they're here.

Patrick Parr (10:10.892)
That's true. Do you feel like we're in a time where the peak of a tennis player is a little younger?

It used to be 20... In my mind I thought 28 was always like 23 to 28 used to be when it seemed like that was the window for the player but it feels like the success of all players tends to be a little bit earlier.

Alvin Owusu (10:42.81)
I think you're looking at, I still think you're right. mean the numbers would bear this out that a player's peak is between 25 and 28. What you're seeing right now is a reflection of a vacuum. The players who are between 25 and 28 just aren't that good right now. The players we've been talking about. so Alcara as in center are just kinda like.

Patrick Parr (10:47.158)
Okay.

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:10.55)
they have not hit their primes yet, and yet they're winning the Grand Slams. So I think that's what we're seeing. And commentators have said it as much like, this is what we're seeing, and these guys haven't even hit their prime yet. And it's not them that are so, I mean, they are unique, and they are somewhat otherworldly, but it's really more so the rest of them that just aren't special.

Patrick Parr (11:11.074)
Viva,

Patrick Parr (11:41.326)
That's a good one. Every time I... Indeed. But I think with Rude, Casper Rude, I love watching him play. Because I love the way he carries himself. I love how he seems like a Nadal light.

Alvin Owusu (11:43.322)
They're not special.

Alvin Owusu (12:03.918)
Sure, yeah, he trained at Null's Academy, so that tracks.

Patrick Parr (12:05.294)
But every time I watch Rude and then every shot, especially on play, all I think about is, because I've been watching the game so long, I remember when his father played. And all I think is...

Alvin Owusu (12:20.441)
Right, yeah.

Patrick Parr (12:24.846)
This is not nice, did his father ever want to make Casper left-handed? Because if he had, oh, I think he's got three grand slams right now. If he could have just done a total carbon copy, like a Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan type thing, and he wouldn't, I think Casper, he's left-handed, I got that guy up in Alcaraz, Centerland. I don't know, but that's just a fairy tale I've

Alvin Owusu (12:53.914)
Huh.

Patrick Parr (12:54.8)
but I think his predictability is due to the fact that he's right here. often, you can almost put the shot selection of Casper's with the dolls and you can almost see the exact same choices being made but it's just that there's just that little bit that he's missing and I often think maybe it's just he's not left-handed.

Alvin Owusu (13:10.968)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (13:21.572)
that you don't.

Patrick Parr (13:24.75)
I forgot we were gonna talk about the five sets we were gonna talk about the five sets but yeah I don't know but that

Alvin Owusu (13:24.794)
I'm gonna chew on that one for a few days. This is what I do. Before we get out of here, I'm gonna ask you this. And I think we can check back in on this. Wait, what did you think I was gonna ask you?

Alvin Owusu (13:41.978)
Ohhhh

Let me hear your position. Okay, so I have stated previously that I believe that if we were going to alter either men's or women's duration of Grand Slam matches, women to five sets or men to three sets, I said that my choice would be getting rid of the five sets of the men's side and let everyone play three. If that was the only option.

Patrick Parr (13:54.974)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (14:17.142)
That is obviously in the world in which we have all the options, that's whatever. I have come back around after hearing many people smarter than I pontificate on the same subject. And there is a certain, when we talk about the greatest matches that have ever been played, they all happen to be best of five set matches. There is a certain thing built into our scoring system in tennis that

does not allow for back and forth momentum swings in a best of three set match, not really. Like we can only get tied at once at all and then play a deciding third, right? Five sets allows for the roller coaster of you can be tied at one one, you can be tied at two two, right? And that length is what allows the legend of the match to grow. And it's unfortunate that that is only available to the men and not available to the women.

Patrick Parr (15:09.902)
think it's bit of swastika.

Alvin Owusu (15:14.732)
So I think I've landed on, I guess this is splitting the baby, right? It would pain me, but if we played, everyone played best of three through the round of maybe 32 or 16, maybe 32. And then round of 16, four, played best of five. I understand that there are logistics involved here, like longer matches across the board within a two week tournament, it's just not gonna happen.

Patrick Parr (15:25.664)
One, two, four, five, six, four.

Wow!

Right.

Alvin Owusu (15:44.473)
Like you can't really do it. There are a lot of other matches to be played. But I think once you get to that, you know, the back half of the tournament and length is out a little bit, it's possible. But, and this is my last thing and then I'll let you speak. But winning 21 sets in two weeks is a yeoman's type of undertaking. Like that's what it means to win a Grand Grand Slams are special.

Patrick Parr (15:54.858)
It's good. No, it's good.

Alvin Owusu (16:13.486)
They take a lot, it's not just forehands and backhands and serves and volleys, right? You have to be able to manage your body. You have to be able to keep your mind dialed in and loose enough to play high-end tennis for two weeks, 14 days, right? It's 14 days in a Grand Slam. So I would hate, I would hate for someone to play a new version of this Grand Slam.

Patrick Parr (16:30.542)
sure that.

Alvin Owusu (16:39.77)
where they play best of three for a week and then best of five for a week and their Grand Slam is of equal value to someone else's Grand Slam.

Patrick Parr (16:48.878)
Well put. That's good.

I agree to a point, but I think we have to preserve the five set as being the entirety of the tournament. If we split the tournament in half, players are going to be fretting about their conditioning, about how to prepare. I think even match plans, the way that they prepare, they want it to be the same, I think, throughout the entire tournament. That would be something.

that would be problematic. I think women yesterday need to change to five seconds. They have to do that because I have to see before I die, Sabalenka play Ostapenko in a best of five. I have to see that. Because, yeah, because they're...

Alvin Owusu (17:44.378)
That's a very specific matchup. I'm here for it. I love Panko. I'm here for it.

Patrick Parr (17:55.398)
I just, I think it would be an explosion of tempers, but I also do think that game plans would be adjusted. They would figure out ways to show their game in a different light. I think Ega would be fantastic in a five setter. Coco would, of course, I just would benefit her of all people I think the most because she's...

Alvin Owusu (18:22.234)
I agree, I think she would be an amazing Vesta five set player. Amazing.

Patrick Parr (18:27.628)
Right, yeah. And how I understand about the argument about prize money and placement on courts and night matches and all that that happened during the French Open. Let's just make it five sets and then let's bring that...

bring that financial argument back on. But the five-set thing has to happen. It has to be five. And it's a mountain. The Grand Slams have to be outsized. They have to be the peaks that we all aspire to end. So, hmm.

Alvin Owusu (18:49.484)
Yeah, I'm coming your side.

Alvin Owusu (19:03.458)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (19:07.744)
I think that, I would actually, yeah, I don't want any changes to the men's format at all. I don't want that. So if we were going to change one, I'm now starting to come over to the side of your, with the position you just stated, I would love to see the women play best of five.

Like I would love to see it. I think it would make, it would change the way we look at not only women's tennis but the individual players. Like, cause I think it would, there's a sameness about the women's tour because the format never changes. Like inherently the first round of the US Open is no different than the first round of Cincinnati. Like it's the same. There's just more people in the stands.

Patrick Parr (19:41.558)
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Patrick Parr (19:57.932)
Right. We're not letting the women show their entire game by having it best of three because

Again, a comparison is problematic, I know, but in the men's game, get, we just watched a five and a half hour classic men's tennis match between Sinner and Alvarez. You watch that whole thing in its entirety, which I did, you just begin to live with their mindset as they're going from game to game. And in those five hours, I feel like, I know Sinner a bit more, not only as a player, but I even just in some small 1 % way,

person. see his thought process a bit more. Alcares too. In my mind Alcares needed the fans as much as the fans needed him. Like that synchronicity that was going on, I felt wow. I mean that's only achievable in a five set format. Whereas on the women's side, one hour three minutes, whoa what just happened? Like that first set went by in about 23 minutes.

Alvin Owusu (20:49.348)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (21:01.689)
right.

Patrick Parr (21:05.998)
Where are we? Who is this person? They remain a little bit too protected in this way. think women need to be given a few more hours on the court and we'll start to understand each player in their own way a bit more.

Alvin Owusu (21:29.496)
I love that. Let's leave it there. We're gonna put a pin in it. Pat, thank you so much for coming on. I'm gonna check back in with you. I feel like we have some more onions to peel here, especially as we matriculate through the rest of the Grand Slam season. But, yep, I'll say as we normally do, best of three, we are out.

Patrick Parr (21:44.046)
Sounds great.

Patrick Parr (21:52.29)
Thanks, Alvin.