Ep. 59: US Open R3 Deep-Dive: Sinner vs Shapovalov, Ben Shelton Update & Taylor Townsend’s Surge

Alvin Owusu (00:00.926)
And welcome to another episode of the best three podcast. I'm Alvin, that is Tory, that is also Ashley and it is Saturday night. It is Saturday night, which puts us in the thick of the third round of the US Open. Almost done with the third round matches. We got a few on right now, but we're gonna roll this bad boy anyway. So tonight we're gonna talk about kind of week one on the whole.

Torrey Hawkins (00:01.251)
Boom.

Torrey Hawkins (00:09.741)
When I pass.

Alvin Owusu (00:26.222)
Get look at some of these third round matches. Talk about some of these fourth round matchups and anything that our collective hearts desire. I'll start with Ashley. Ashley, how are you doing this evening?

Torrey Hawkins (00:33.901)
Mm-hmm

Ashley Spicer (00:37.068)
doing great, you know, I am still repping the Longhorns after a tough football loss today. I'm happy to talk about tennis and switch it up. You know, just a great Labor Day weekend, great sports weekend for me and my household. So I'm excited to be here tonight and I'm excited to talk about tennis.

Alvin Owusu (00:42.35)
Hahaha

Alvin Owusu (00:53.572)
Fantastic, fantastic, yeah my Tigers, my LSU Tigers, let me be specific. We got Tiger versus Tiger tonight, down in Clemson, up in Clemson from here, Battle of Death Valleys, but yeah, but we're doing this instead. TH, how living, man?

Ashley Spicer (00:57.59)
Yeah, you gotta be specific where you're at.

Torrey Hawkins (01:09.261)
I'm good, man. I'm good. I was just thinking about Ashley's, hook horns over there. We got to get Michael center on the, on the podcast. And I haven't talked to Michael in a couple of years, so we good to.

Ashley Spicer (01:18.07)
Right, just launched a new book. I'm excited to read it.

Torrey Hawkins (01:21.653)
Just launched this book. was just talking with some coaches about him. It'd be great to catch back up with the former coach. You know what mean? I'm sure he's got a lot of things to comment on on lot of levels. But bottom line, maybe that's for another time. But shout out to Michael Center if you're watching. Hit us up. Let us give us some dates. Look forward to talking to you,

Ashley Spicer (01:28.425)
in.

Ashley Spicer (01:34.657)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:42.02)
Hook them, hook them. So I did a secret coin toss earlier before you guys get on and it landed on tails. So we're gonna start with the men tonight if that's okay. We're gonna make you guys wait for the good stuff when we get to the women. So full disclosure, I just got back from the US Open today. I was there on Thursday and Friday, know, middle Thursday, Friday. Had a great time. It was really, really good. I hadn't been to the US Open in

Ashley Spicer (01:43.778)
Okay.

Ashley Spicer (01:53.196)
Love that.

Torrey Hawkins (01:54.305)
Done.

Ashley Spicer (02:00.276)
time.

Alvin Owusu (02:11.511)
gosh, it's 2008, and it was so nice to be with the people. still, Tori, I still stand on this. I prefer Charleston over over flushing. It's all a lot, but it is, it's a ton, it's a ton.

Torrey Hawkins (02:25.483)
Yeah, yeah. A lot man. It's a lot. And it only gets bigger and more busy. I mean, you could get you could spend a day in each little nook and cranny of the open. You They literally need to have a 14 day pass just to let you you know at all. I'm sure. But just to understand and the level of matches. I mean, you can hang out on court 17.

Alvin Owusu (02:46.118)
I'm sure they'll sell you one. They'll sell you one. Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (02:48.437)
Ha ha.

Ashley Spicer (02:54.485)
My favorite place to be.

Torrey Hawkins (02:54.662)
and that whole section and be fine. You can hang out at the new grandstand. Louis is much improved and a whole different experience. I was shocked when I went in there. I hadn't been in Louis in years. Louis might be the best court to play in. 100%.

Alvin Owusu (02:56.846)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (03:01.997)
man.

Alvin Owusu (03:06.128)
Louis might be the perfect tennis court. I was gonna get to that. I had a couple matches in Louis. think I did day Louis on Thursday, day Louis on Friday, and then Ash on Friday night. And normally I would not do this, myself and my friends, we all traveled in, so I'm like, know, worst case if we get rain, we got a roof, right? I don't want us to walk away with no tennis.

But the Ash versus the Louis experience, I saw Novak versus Cam Norrie in Ash and then Taylor Chowdhuston versus Mira Andriva. And this is the largest tennis stadium in the world, right? And even when it was loud, it felt cavernous, right? Like it's so big, there's so much negative space in the building, right? Like court up, like all of this space. So like, even when it's loud, you don't...

Ashley Spicer (03:37.173)
very different.

Ashley Spicer (03:46.805)
Go.

Torrey Hawkins (03:47.435)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (03:53.321)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (04:03.971)
from the stands you don't feel like it's all around you. You feel like it's just kind of like noise in the air. Whereas Louis, when I was in Louis for Ben's match, man, it felt like you were in a high school gym. Like it was great. It was great. Yeah, yeah and like the way, I guess the way the acoustics are set up, like it's bouncing around. Like it felt like very, it felt intimate even though it was a, you know, it was a stadium. that was the old like center court, right? That was the old like stadium, stadium.

Torrey Hawkins (04:07.178)
Yup.

Torrey Hawkins (04:12.501)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (04:15.072)
Yeah. Yeah. You're right on top of right on top of it there. feels like

Torrey Hawkins (04:21.195)
Yep.

Ashley Spicer (04:22.082)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (04:33.403)
Old, old, old, old. Yep. I find Châtrier is like that too in the French for those that haven't been there. It's like a massive coffee cup. You know what I mean? And the sides go up strong and you like your while you're sitting on top of the person in front of you, but it is very much the noise and the volume to your point, the acoustics much, much better. And I find labor to be a smaller ash. It's

Alvin Owusu (04:34.807)
Great. Okay. Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (04:34.946)
Hold, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (05:00.011)
It's just it's massive. It's massive in there too. Not as high, but it has that same level. It's a concert venue, right? Every year for their big events, except for those Tweets of the Year in January slash Feb. So anyway, to your point, I get you. Are you talking 92 Approval versus 85 Luita Ash? Are we talking?

Alvin Owusu (05:03.129)
It is. No, no, no. Yeah, I went a couple years ago. Yeah, it's...

Ashley Spicer (05:08.96)
Yes, yeah, exactly.

Alvin Owusu (05:28.557)
I'm never going in Ash again. No, I'm never going in Ash again. I'm never, I'm never.

Torrey Hawkins (05:29.035)
98 to 80. Wow, okay. That's a bold statement.

Ashley Spicer (05:31.818)
What? That is a strong take, Alvin. That's a strong take.

Torrey Hawkins (05:36.052)
Wow.

Alvin Owusu (05:36.569)
Caveat, caveat actually, unless like semi-finals and finals tickets fall on my lap. I'll twist my arm, I'll go.

Ashley Spicer (05:41.155)
So I've been lucky enough the last two years to attend the women's semis in Ash. And I have to say, for client experiences and things like that with my day job, and I have to say from that experience, right, being able to take a behind the scenes tour, be able to look at the...

Alvin Owusu (05:59.534)
Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (05:59.947)
at the grounds from what I would say maybe like the non tennis person fan, right? Fans, like not necessarily playing background. Ash is like the pinnacle, right? It's like the era's tour of tennis, right? So, like that experience, right? With the food and the drink and the fun and the atmosphere and your, know, celeb spotting and all this. It is fun from an entertainment perspective as well. But I understand like,

Torrey Hawkins (06:00.299)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (06:14.275)
Sure, sure.

Torrey Hawkins (06:19.486)
Yep. The sweets. Yeah.

Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (06:29.474)
As a tennis fan, I'm actually out on court 17 to be very honest with you. That's where I want to be all day. I want to be bouncing from the practice courts. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (06:30.137)
from a tennis perspective.

Torrey Hawkins (06:33.46)
Yeah, Court 17 is definitely a better and your ash you hit on something. It is Mercedes Benz Stadium for tennis. That's what it is. It feels like with there are so many club level seats and other things going on in there. I mean, it's it's a it's a show man. It's a show and I think that was the whole point, right? But I will also say that as far as for the fan of me that wants to watch give me man give me four or five and six man give me

Ashley Spicer (06:51.458)
Yep.

Ashley Spicer (06:59.808)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (07:00.874)
You know, right there I can watch them be right there court side for a bigger event. I'll even take grandstand over Ash. know, give me anything that's in that level. I love Court 17. Absolutely love Louis. They were, so I was there. The mixed matches were either in Ash or in Louis. And I went from Ash over to Louis. And first of all, we had a debacle. The lady with.

security in ash was so tight. We're sitting there with lanyards and literally a card from the from the tournament director saying, yeah, yeah, this is us a coaching. They have they have the coaches seats in these two boxes, right? Nope. Need a ticket. So I spent the first hour of the hour and half in ash trying to get in the ash. It so tight. And I'm like, you got to be freaking kidding me. So I ran over to Louis like, man, bump this.

Ashley Spicer (07:41.697)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (07:44.089)
Ha

Ashley Spicer (07:47.83)
you

Torrey Hawkins (07:55.402)
because you didn't need to take it over and in Louis. And I said something similar to you, Alvin, why the heck would I ever go back to Ash again when the seats are better and I ain't got my girl over there, the Gestapo over there with the tickets and the tennis arguably was better. Just saying. Now, anyway, we can move on.

Ashley Spicer (07:56.737)
Right, right.

Alvin Owusu (08:02.498)
Thank you. Preach. Preach.

Ashley Spicer (08:15.01)
Different experiences for sure. Different experiences for sure. I mean, kudos to the USTA for creating the layout at the open. think, obviously going from 2008 to now, it's like basically a totally different layout, different fan experience. I do have to say that I can appreciate what they're doing.

Alvin Owusu (08:29.431)
Alright.

Torrey Hawkins (08:29.928)
100%.

Ashley Spicer (08:35.106)
from a fan experience wise. think that you know the casual fan can go there and have a great time. The diehard tennis fan, the former players can go. All of us can find our little space and I think you know the USDA for creating an environment where all of us can kind of find our own little home.

Torrey Hawkins (08:37.917)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (08:46.619)
annual space.

Torrey Hawkins (08:50.93)
I agree.

Alvin Owusu (08:51.96)
It's the Lollapalooza or the Austin City limits of tennis, right? Or the Coachella, if you will. It's just a fun time. It's a fun time. like, I've heard, I have a family that attends Burning Man annually. That's for another episode. anyways, so being on site, that was my kind of takeaway from the fan perspective.

Torrey Hawkins (08:56.519)
It is. ACL. Yep. It is.

Ashley Spicer (08:56.674)
Take ACL over that, yeah.

Ashley Spicer (09:01.986)
As long as it's not Burning Man, Alvin, as long as it's not Burning Man.

Torrey Hawkins (09:05.665)
Hahaha

Ashley Spicer (09:11.458)
You

Alvin Owusu (09:21.56)
put the coaching hat on and how being there allows you to evaluate players. And this is the same, it's kind of the same as going to a smaller tournament of 500 or something like that where you can get up close. It's like you can really get an understanding, for me specifically, why a player, why they are who they are. Why their ranking is what their ranking is. You can really see their limitations as a player because they're all.

Torrey Hawkins (09:43.208)
in.

Alvin Owusu (09:49.421)
good, you watch them on TV, they can all work the ball and they can all move and it's the little things that separate the top players from the next players and then the next players from the rest of the players. And kind of specifically I was with, actually I don't if you remember, shout out to Norm Houston, former colleague of mine, we were watching Mardukostik.

play against, who was she playing? I think was playing maybe Sanmez in her match a couple days ago. it was like, know, Marta is, pardon me, yeah Marta's tall, she moves well, back hands out of the corner all day, like she's in the fight. But then that forehand is just a little thinner than you want from someone who's gonna be approaching the top 20, right? Like that's kind of like, that specific thing is her limitation. It's fine, the forehand's fine.

Torrey Hawkins (10:44.262)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (10:45.696)
But you can't really necessarily see that on TV all the time, whereas when you're courtside from the side, you're like, that's best ball she can hit, and that shape's not hurting anyone at this level. There's going to be a ceiling that she will run into until that changes. And I say that she's in the fourth round of the US Open, so what am I talking about, right? What am I talking about? And then someone like Cam Norrie watched his complete match last night against Novak, and...

Torrey Hawkins (10:49.852)
Right.

Ashley Spicer (10:55.682)
All

Torrey Hawkins (10:57.063)
Right.

Yep.

Ashley Spicer (11:06.178)
You

Alvin Owusu (11:14.476)
for all the things that Cam is really, really good at, right? And the continuing conversation around his horse lungs, right? Cam's kind of is lacking fast-switched muscles. He doesn't sprint well. Right, it is what it is. That's his own limitation. You see him try to hit a running forehand. Right, yeah, the drop shots. Get there.

Ashley Spicer (11:21.82)
you

Yeah. Never mind. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (11:26.716)
Yeah. He never has. Yeah. Yeah. I saw a couple of drop shot gets that to your point and and man, I was like, get there. Come on, Ken. Come on. You got it. But to your point to your

Ashley Spicer (11:38.587)
He's loping to the ball. You're like, whoa, there he goes. Got it. Get the engine going a little bit. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (11:45.722)
Right. And, to your point, he's, you know, I don't think anybody would confuse him for a speedster out there. I was happy that he slid on the hardcore. was like, Hey, can slide as on a double bounce. But my point being he slid to not run into a double. He did not get there on the first bounce is one point. And I was happy. He didn't fall into the net. That's my point. And I say that to say, and this young man had a phenomenal win beat and kept it close and took a set of Novak. So, I mean, I'm just saying this.

Ashley Spicer (11:53.015)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:54.361)
He slid, he slid but he cannot slide.

Torrey Hawkins (12:15.291)
These are, it's a great point. It's why you have to see these guys in person.

Alvin Owusu (12:18.914)
You gotta see him in person. You gotta go see him in person. Let's start from the top. So we're looking at round four tomorrow. Starting on the men's side, we're just gonna start from the top. Yannick Sinner, I watched pretty much all of his match today as I'm in transit to the airport, I'm in the airport, I'm on the plane, there are shots to Delta for your live television on the plane. This match was less about Yannick Sinner and more about

Ashley Spicer (12:19.202)
Absolutely. Yep.

Ashley Spicer (12:41.314)
Sponsorship.

Torrey Hawkins (12:42.469)
Hahaha.

Alvin Owusu (12:47.852)
Dennis Shepovolov. And I put this in the rundown, the mercurial Dennis Shepovolov, I watched him play a couple days ago. And then I was like, you know what, he's just kind of all over the place. He's all over the place. The theatrics, he doesn't really do anything conventionally. Everything is kind of like out there.

Right? But then you hear a center talk about it before the match and he's like, he's very unpredictable. That's what makes him tough. And he is almost the poor man's version of Carlos, which is he's very athletic. He can hit through the court, right? He can put center in positions where a center found it very difficult to kind of control from the middle of the court and

Ashley Spicer (13:22.242)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (13:30.855)
Mmm.

Alvin Owusu (13:44.834)
direct traffic to the corners. Shapovalov had him doing the work early and there must be something about his ball that Yanuk doesn't like because he missed some balls that were a little uncharacteristic for him. But I think the ability to extend points, like similar to the way Carlos does, and then the fact that he's unpredictable, he doesn't do what you think he's going to do, he just does whatever he's thinking about doing, which is kinda like Carlos and that is very anti-Yanuk Center, what say you Ashley?

Ashley Spicer (14:12.738)
Yeah, I agree. think, you know, for me, when I Apple Olive, he is creative on the court in a way that I find entertaining. I think what I would like to see from him before I can really get behind him is the consistency in making the right choice and winning the right points. Right. And he almost has this, there's a hint of Gaye Monfee that I see in him. But I'm like,

Torrey Hawkins (14:40.788)
That's what I was going to say. Yeah. He's a, he's a lesser white Gale Monfeece. Lefty. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (14:42.03)
okay,

Ashley Spicer (14:42.442)
the athleticism is there. His level, when his level is on, it's unbelievable. But if you can only do that for a set and a half or three sets, you know, a couple sets, it's just, you're always gonna fall short because it's the actual consistency of the centers. Even the Alcaraz's, right? He provides a consistent result. And I'd like to see him make...

cut back just a little on creativity in favor of winning points consistently at that level. I think that's my little like, that's how I feel when I watch him.

Torrey Hawkins (15:17.189)
Is that your Christmas list Ashley? Is that your Christmas wish list? It ain't happened in nine years. It's probably not gonna happen anytime soon. hear your point though.

Ashley Spicer (15:23.936)
Well, but as a coach, as a coach, what do you, how do you coach that, right? Like to me, okay, well there's your answer.

Torrey Hawkins (15:29.284)
You don't.

Alvin Owusu (15:31.573)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (15:31.898)
You don't let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. And you make an excellent point. You don't coach how he plays now. And you're trying to look at a very unpredictable, a very I'm going to say, you, McCurial was a great word. I think he likes being a contrarian. He likes not doing it the right way. So if I'm his coach, right, you've got to look at coaching him differently.

Ashley Spicer (15:52.352)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (16:00.962)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (16:01.348)
You know, I look at what John Williams has done with Taylor. You know, I'm going to meet you where you are. All right? I'm going to meet you where you are. This is who you are. And I'm going to tell you right now, it's not going to change. But so the consistency you talk about, that's his kryptonite consistency and training and outlook and percentages. But that's also why he does it. And I think there are a bunch of players like that in his boat.

Ashley Spicer (16:18.636)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (16:19.669)
And so, and.

Torrey Hawkins (16:29.602)
I think the Curiels is in that same boat. There's about 10 % of the players in the tour that are in that same boat that just do it their way. And I got to tell you, that's kind of like watching I'm thankful for them.

Ashley Spicer (16:31.679)
Absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (16:41.463)
Well, it's fun for the fans, right? It is fun for the fans. They all play and you talk about, okay, Shep Valov, you talk about Monfiche, you talk about Kiris. He's some of the most exciting players on the men's side on any given day. The crowds for his match against Royer were like, they were nuts, but then so was he. It's all over the place.

Torrey Hawkins (16:44.644)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (16:51.321)
Right?

Ashley Spicer (17:01.036)
Yeah. But do they ever have a chance of winning a Grand Slam? I understand they're entertaining.

Torrey Hawkins (17:01.453)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (17:04.821)
Also, here's the problem. Here's the problem. I think as a coach, what you are then tasked to do is to raise their floor because the players with the highest floor are the ones that are able to get through. Like Tor, you talking about, you have these days throughout the course of a Grand Slam where your level is somewhere between one and 10, whatever. He's gonna hit, his worst day is gonna be a two and that's not good enough to win a match in a Grand Slam.

Torrey Hawkins (17:08.653)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (17:30.232)
Nope. Nope. Nope.

Alvin Owusu (17:32.619)
We need to get him to a point where his worst day is a four or a five, and that's the difference between a Shep of Olive and a Carlos. If Carlos is not playing well, assuming he's not checked out, which I think we're past that with him, he's still gonna be able to get through it. Dennis is gonna be yelling at everybody. Yeah, he's gonna be yelling at everybody.

Ashley Spicer (17:46.648)
Yeah. Cry some burn.

Torrey Hawkins (17:50.469)
He's gonna beat Dennis. He's gonna beat Dennis every day. You know what I mean? And 100 % and you heard it right here. The players that are consistent don't like that. know, just saying. Yannick didn't like the first set today. You know what I mean? Drop shot it on first strikes. Certain volley. Oh my God. No doubt.

Ashley Spicer (17:52.908)
Dennis the Menace, right?

Ashley Spicer (17:59.811)
It's true.

Alvin Owusu (18:01.089)
Well, that's his match today with Yannick, right? Yeah, and that match was...

Ashley Spicer (18:07.394)
Yeah, he's very much a weather the storm type player. Like he's gonna get hot, just weather the storm, keep putting the ball in the court, you know, and at some point he's gonna cool off and then you can kind of turn the tide and, you know, hopefully that doesn't take, you know, all five sets and you get to save a little bit of energy at the end, but you know.

Torrey Hawkins (18:18.744)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (18:22.719)
Right, then, I mean, there came a point in today's match where it's like it was three all in the third set, and it's like, okay, you need to hold right here, and he did not, and then he just kind of lost it. And he hadn't said anything, much of anything, and we were at like a two, maybe two 10 mark at that point, and he had it put together, and then when it got a little bit, when the resistance was there, and he had to like lock down, he could not lock down, he kind of lost it. And, you know, it's...

Ashley Spicer (18:32.148)
is done. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (18:32.43)
went away. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (18:50.615)
Probably more credit to center because he's gonna force you to do that, right? It's not really about Dennis, but we could use somebody like Dennis to keep the top of the men's game interesting because help me.

Torrey Hawkins (18:54.625)
Right.

Ashley Spicer (19:00.802)
Exciting to watch.

Torrey Hawkins (19:02.884)
We had one, he needs to retire. I get tired of seeing him continue to try to make this comeback effort. And Nick, one of my all time favorite players to watch, but God bless it, brother. Do your thing. I'm not sure that I want to see Nick continue this, you know, 10 year retirement plan either. You know what I mean? So let me say this. I think we all, and we're all tennis players, we're all

Ashley Spicer (19:18.37)
you

Ashley Spicer (19:22.082)
you

Torrey Hawkins (19:32.813)
former coaches, we all have a pretty, I'm going to say a fairly astute opinion of tennis than the average fan. Our fallacy, I know it's mine, is to tend to watch tennis through the eyes of Novak, through the eyes of Yannick, through the eyes of Carlos from the highest level down. When I am there, I can be critical on Novak. missed that backhand a little short right there. As if we're the, you know,

Ashley Spicer (20:00.982)
code.

Torrey Hawkins (20:01.208)
We're the automatons of tennis, right? And then I stepped back from it and I watched as a fan and I am just excited to watch the qualities and see how high the level is. And so then I'm watching it to say, and this is the qualities. This guy is 200 in the world and somehow got in the qualities and he looks ridiculous. And I'm like, and just wait until the guys actually get here next week. It's going to be even tougher. This guy may not last a round or two. I say that to say, I saw your buddy, Kim.

Jerome maybe Kim last night who played who played Taylor a pretty decent match. And I'm watching this guy from Switzerland. One of my shout out to my boy, Julio Sassy, who's my head pro here, River Club, who told me about this kid. And I'm like, never heard of this kid before. Right. And Alvin, I have to tell you, Kim looked pretty good. He looked very Taylor Fritz like. Now, does he have the same consistency? Does Taylor have just a few more nuances? 100 %

Alvin Owusu (20:37.162)
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Torrey Hawkins (21:01.196)
But Kim was right there for dare I say for two thirds of the match. to the point I'm making, I think if I'm looking through that match through Kim's eyes, I am saying, buddy, keep working. You're so close to top 20 material. Just keep working. You're right there. You're knocking on the door. If you can go back, fix a few things, manage that first surface a little better. Keep leaning on the point of backhand, but pick your times to use them.

We were having a similar conversation having about Ben Shelton, but this started the year, if you recall. And so, and so now we're, now we're looking at other young, what younger guys coming up. I would certainly put Kim in that same conversation. Yeah, we need, we need to have a whole little small five minute segment on Ben. but I say it to say there are so many guys like him that are doing that are comp that are up and comers that I am very excited to see. and, and I, and that's my point is I don't want to reduce.

Ashley Spicer (21:32.576)
When we talk about Ben, my poor Ben shall die.

Alvin Owusu (21:51.019)
Well...

Torrey Hawkins (21:58.657)
to anything other than he is a creative genius at work who we love to watch. Will he ever threaten for a Grand Slam Ashley? I doubt it. Does that mean that I will not go watch him play over somebody else? I will go watch him first, you know, and I think there's a certain element of him, Gael, and others like him that I love to see because it's unconventional. And I hate to say it, I'm a little older than you two.

There was a time when Mats V. Londer had tennis on lockdown in the middle to late eighties. And guess who was, had it kind of on lockdown before him was a guy named Ivan Lindell. They were so good at almost being tennis robots. Tennis Darn near died. Now here's what I'm saying between the no expression of the face, making so many balls, playing so much hot percentage tennis.

You longed for a time of John Mcamory on Bjorn Borg when it was exciting to watch. say that and I go into it I just want to say this last part. And then came Pete and Andre. And all of a sudden it became fun to watch the opposing styles. That's my only insertion of this is let's not forget that the variation is also fun for the game. And is it?

Ashley Spicer (22:58.06)
Well, but I think.

Ashley Spicer (23:17.538)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (23:20.146)
Is it ever going to be a grand sledge? You can't play that way seven times and win, but it doesn't matter in the total. Go ahead.

Ashley Spicer (23:24.054)
Well, think if I could, yeah, if I could clarify, I think what I would love to see, and I'm a huge Gamma Feast fan, I'm just gonna kinda talk about him for a second. I want to see those guys do it, put it all together one time, because I do love the style of their game, right? And I think what I would love to see is not for them to dampen their creativity, but to be able to be creative.

Torrey Hawkins (23:35.233)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (23:40.273)
One time. Fair. Fair.

Ashley Spicer (23:48.191)
and execute consistently with that creativity, right? Like I want them to almost like not become tennis robots, that was super boring, right? But like merge into that where it's like, man, like, holy cow, it's mind blowing tennis out there. you see it, you get these little tastes of it you're like, ooh, I want more of that. Ooh, that tastes, I want more of that, right? And I think that's, know, the tennis fan in me is like, come on, man, just put it together. Like you're right there, you know?

Torrey Hawkins (23:55.371)
Sure. God. The worst.

Torrey Hawkins (24:15.295)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (24:16.992)
There are two things that are true about tennis, tennis, especially at the professional level. One, this is an entertainment sport, right? It is entertainment. So these players, what they do bring outside of winning and losing is extremely valuable, right? That's the thing. That's why people buy tickets. Two, all tennis players are flawed. All of them. Every single one of them, right? The real difference between like Coleman,

Ashley Spicer (24:23.906)
Absolutely. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (24:44.578)
and Taylor Fritz is Taylor has shored up a few of the, he's just shored up the holes, They can all hit forehands and backhands. They can all cover the court to a certain extent, right? It's like when the chips are down, who believes that they can hide their weaknesses better than the other? And that's what happened, I was passing through Louie last night and when Taylor was getting all mixed up in that match and it's like, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:47.176)
is much less flawed. Right,

Ashley Spicer (24:51.552)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (25:13.706)
But at some point someone's going to blink and it's probably not going to be Taylor.

Torrey Hawkins (25:15.572)
Right. He he never was in threat of losing. He was in threat of going five. He was in threat of extending it longer than he could. Then he should have. He was in threat of getting broken. He was never a threat to lose it. And again, no disrespect to Ken played a great match, especially for him, where he's at in his career. And I think to your point of they all they are all flawed. They're all human as we all are. I say they are much

Ashley Spicer (25:15.966)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (25:25.014)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (25:45.258)
There are those that are much less flawed than others. And actually, I want to say this to make sure we're on the same page. I saw Gael grow up. I saw him fling around the quality courts, couldn't even make the main draw of the junior. I have seen Gael, him and Sco are the same age. I have seen that young man since he was 15 years old. So you appreciate there may not be a bigger Gael Monfee's fan than this man right here. So please understand me on that one.

Ashley Spicer (26:00.579)
Yeah?

Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (26:10.497)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (26:15.007)
Um, I will give you a quick 10 second story. Ah, 30 seconds. I'm standing next to police. I'm standing. I'm in Australia for the first time at Oh four. I'm standing next to one of his coaches. And I hear on the cell phone cause I'm standing next to the guy who has physio and coaches meeting. He says, hear Monfee Monfee Monfee. I'm like, what's happening to Gail? He gets a call from the French federation saying Gail is cut. That's it. No more tennis for Gail.

Alvin Owusu (26:19.061)
I'm gonna count you down. I'll count you down.

Torrey Hawkins (26:43.462)
As soon as he's done sending back to Paris, I'm like, whoa, come on now, Gale, come on. The guy looks at me says, he's had three years. He can't get it done. He says the good news is he's still in the tournament and they'll let him keep playing as long as he's in. I said, well, man, thank God. This is before the Australian of 2004. Gale Monfiste wins the tune up. Gale Monfiste goes into the Australian junior and ends up winning the tournament beating

Ashley Spicer (27:02.945)
Yeah

Ashley Spicer (27:06.41)
you

Torrey Hawkins (27:12.256)
who they thought was gonna be Jocelyn Juana was gonna be the next French heir apparent right behind Matthew Moncourt and others. Jeremy Chardy and others came next. When I tell you he was that close from getting cut because of creativity, because of too much, right? There is my quick story to give you some background on Gayle. That it's turned into now a what? Darn near 18 year career, right? Of the young man, 20 years, however long you wanna call 21 years. And I say it to tell you I...

Ashley Spicer (27:24.374)
Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (27:34.144)
He's what lasted a lot of people.

Torrey Hawkins (27:41.535)
could not be happier for Gail for knowing how close he came and knowing where he's at now. Trust me Ashley, we're on the same place. There's my 30 second song, but I just want to that in there for everybody to know.

Ashley Spicer (27:50.338)
Absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (27:50.87)
Well, I'm gonna swing that over into the tournament present day though, right? So speaking of Gaelle, he's obviously one of the elder statesmen on tour, one of the five oldest people in this draw. We're having a little bit of the old guy stand right now on the men's side, right? Obviously Novak is doing what he's doing. He is old, but he's also Novak, so maybe he doesn't really count. But Jan-Linus Shroff, right? He's having quite the tournament. Takes down Francis.

Ashley Spicer (28:06.85)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (28:19.239)
and he's actually playing good tennis. I, know, Francis's remarks after the match, you know, we, we, we, I don't know where we are with Francis and I think we'll, we'll get to talking about him, but between Novak and Struth and Manorino, I was, okay, we're gonna have a conversation about Ben Shelton and about Francis Diablo. I guess maybe we'll have it at the same time. But I was, I love seeing the elder statesman be able to, you know, put it together.

not just on the back ends of their careers, but in these big, large stages where people who came to see these young Americans specifically, Francis isn't young, but they get to see these other players who are doing things maybe a little bit differently in Manarino's case. And Struth, a guy who's never really seen the upper echelons of our sport, but he's still showing fans that he is one of those players that can hit a ball too.

Torrey Hawkins (29:00.254)
get to see these other players who are kind of being a little bit differently in their newness case. So it's Chuck, know, down here, everybody's seen him for a couple extra longs in our sport, but he's still, you know, a player. He's good player, but he is one of those players.

Ashley Spicer (29:17.964)
I think you're seeing experience kind of like come into play here a little bit of they don't really have, they're at the back half of their career. They don't really have anything to lose at this point. Like they're gonna play lights out. And I think you're seeing their maturity on the court really pull them through. They know who they are. They know what their weaknesses are. They know what their strengths are. And they can just play with that and like.

Torrey Hawkins (29:36.702)
All right.

Ashley Spicer (29:39.063)
All the stuff that happens in the young careers and people who are up and coming and what do they have, what don't they have, and they're trying to figure themselves out. People are putting labels on them. People are constantly changing their opinions. These guys have seen it all. They're like, this is who I am. This is what I got. And let's give it a good ride, right? And I think I'm enjoying seeing them play with that little bit of freedom. You can almost see just a little bit of freedom in their style right now. And they're just kinda letting it hang out. I think when I watch Monfils again, back in the day, you'd see them get all tight.

Torrey Hawkins (29:49.928)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (29:56.168)
Right.

Ashley Spicer (30:09.196)
like, no, he just plays man. He's like, this is what I have today, you know, and it's all good. think you're seeing the same thing in Strzok. You know, I think even Djokovic has a little bit of that, right? Like he, he's kind of like, I don't play anything but the slams, you know, and I'm going to give it my best shot and I'm going to, yeah, like, like he knows who he is. He's securing himself as a player. He's obviously secure himself, you know, as a human, but as a player, he knows who he is. He knows what he's got and what he doesn't. And to me, you know, I love seeing, you know, players

Torrey Hawkins (30:11.632)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (30:21.961)
Which is a flex. Which is such a flex.

Torrey Hawkins (30:25.436)
He's earned it though.

Ashley Spicer (30:36.864)
kind of turn that curve on the freedom, right? That they can just be themselves.

Alvin Owusu (30:40.723)
Yeah, yeah, and while we're here, there were only a few things I had left on the agenda on the men's side. One being, actually, when I didn't get to that one, the American men right now, right? The Ben Shelton experience, which I got a chance to partake in again yesterday, he's that dude, right? He is that guy, he's marketable.

Torrey Hawkins (30:54.91)
Okay.

Ashley Spicer (30:55.744)
Ashley Spicer (31:03.99)
Yes.

Alvin Owusu (31:07.369)
He has the personality. He wins enough tennis matches. He plays a brand of tennis that Americans really like. It's Smash Mouth. It's just Smash Mouth tennis. and he's a big, and personally, I he's a big dude. he's, yeah, he's...

Ashley Spicer (31:14.08)
Yes. Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (31:16.306)
Smash Mouth all day.

We got, yeah.

Ashley Spicer (31:22.134)
but he's fun, he's funny, his media is awesome. The way he handles the playoff, I love Trinity coming in asking him a question, his playfulness, right? You see that shine through in his media presence, his social stuff that he's doing on TikTok, this, that, and the other.

Alvin Owusu (31:29.182)
All the things.

Alvin Owusu (31:37.18)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (31:40.657)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley Spicer (31:47.059)
He's got all the pieces and it's really, really exciting. You saw was his first round match. The stand was packed for him. I mean, absolutely packed every single one of his matches. He is bringing the crowds. He is the I think a great balance of entertainer and high level tennis player. And, you know, I respect his decision, you know, to say like, look, like something's wrong here. I'm not going to keep pushing it. Understanding that he has hopefully a very long future ahead of him.

Alvin Owusu (31:48.799)
He's got all the pieces.

Ashley Spicer (32:15.848)
And to kind of see the fans get a little disappointed, like, man, could he pull it through? Was that the right call? It's an interesting point.

Alvin Owusu (32:24.169)
Yeah, well mean Brian was pushing that one. So Brian was right in front of me. Yeah, yeah, father coach, he's like, cut it. There's nothing that we need to continue to go for. We're talking left shoulder, right? That's the money maker. And if left shoulder can't go, we're not going anywhere, so let's just shut this bad boy down. But it was so cool to see that place was standing room only. There were people sitting on the stairs.

Ashley Spicer (32:28.286)
As any father should, right? As any father in any coach would. Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (32:37.526)
Yep. That's the money they can't tell that. Yep.

Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (32:44.667)
Right.

Ashley Spicer (32:49.43)
Yes. Yes.

Alvin Owusu (32:52.085)
general admission people were just flying in trying to like, even close. Not even close. like the.

Ashley Spicer (32:53.906)
No one else is bringing that level of attendance in the first week. Not the center, not Al Kharas. I mean, he's so special.

Alvin Owusu (33:02.737)
Not even close. It's, yeah, but the kicker is like, so we were talking about like, yes, he's great for American tennis, he's great for tennis at large. Taylor's also, Taylor is a top five player. Francis has made the semi-finals of Grand Slams before, but is that gonna be enough for the American audience? Like there's a little bit of a, there's a ceiling there, right?

Ashley Spicer (33:28.854)
We just need one. We just need one. I mean, honestly, I will take one at this point. It has been such a drought for American tennis, for dominant American tennis. Men, of course men's only. We are only talking about men right now. I'm the first one to say men. We're in the men's category right now.

Torrey Hawkins (33:36.176)
It brings up the crack.

Alvin Owusu (33:38.535)
Men's American tennis, men's American tennis, men's American tennis, men's American. Ladies are crushing. Fair.

Torrey Hawkins (33:43.2)
We're always on the line right now.

Alvin Owusu (33:47.583)
Hehehehe. Hehehehe.

Torrey Hawkins (33:47.928)
As a resident female, no doubt, no doubt. Get them, Ashley.

Ashley Spicer (33:52.011)
Anyways.

Torrey Hawkins (33:53.212)
I'm gonna chime in, I'm gonna chime in. No, it won't be enough, it hasn't been enough for 20 years. Let me say this, Andy Roddick, which I was happy to see some of his old clips and things come about.

Ashley Spicer (34:01.972)
Andy Roddick was not anywhere close to what Ben Shelton is. I'll say that right now. Love you, Andy.

Alvin Owusu (34:06.964)
from a fan standpoint.

Torrey Hawkins (34:07.13)
Wow. Wow. Wow. In what sense?

Ashley Spicer (34:12.8)
think that Andy Roddick brought the level of excitement from the average viewer that Ben Shelton does. Andy Roddick wasn't packing ash on a Tuesday night.

Torrey Hawkins (34:20.09)
Hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (34:28.283)
Different time though. I agree with you in terms of all of the buzz around Ben. I'm going to push back a little bit Ashley just because, and please understand that I totally not only agree with you on some levels, I know both players fairly well. Know Brian, go back 20, almost 30 years. So I've known pre-Ben, so to speak. I say it to tell you Andy was

Ashley Spicer (34:31.05)
Agree.

Torrey Hawkins (34:59.775)
Andy was exactly what Smash Mouth was 20 years ago. And I think my thing that I want to make sure we don't lose in today's social media, you know, frenzy is that for all intents and purposes, he's probably a better overall tennis player at the peak of his career, which Ben is yet to reach. I will also say that he, Andy, brought us the end of a drought.

At the last drought, right? And gave us hope that there was more on the way. We didn't know that we were stepping into the greatest of all time era with Fed, Nadal, and now Novak. And I think we're in a similar era now where we don't know. We're about to step into another great run with Carlos and with Yannick. And I would love to see Ben get one, to your point. I don't know when that'll be. The longer it goes, right? Maybe he'll

He'll pull a Delpo, maybe he'll pull a, you know, uh, who, uh, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a,

He's got so many things he can still get better at. That's what I love about Ben. The fact that he's packing on crowds and Dave, Trinity, Rodman, all that. that's great. I made an analogy the other day, Alvin, about he's a lot like Dennis Rodman. A little unconventional, you know, a little bit. He's an athlete. I'm going to... Here's what I'm going with. Dennis was not smooth. There was a lot of basketball players, Alvin, that were smooth. Dennis was an athlete beyond athletics.

Ashley Spicer (36:39.186)
I think, I think Ben

Alvin Owusu (36:41.288)
I'm not going there. I'm not going there.

Alvin Owusu (36:52.499)
I'll take that.

Torrey Hawkins (36:52.899)
The man, the man found ways to out rebound guys, six, six inches taller. The guy hard, he worked his butt off. He was never what you would say smooth, but he was a champion and he dedicated himself to get better at the package he was given and truth be told was probably overachieved. And I see a little bit of that coming from Ben. I'm not going in there with the whole family dynamic. I get all that. He's he, he has a lot to work on. He's only getting better. That's my point.

Ashley Spicer (36:59.382)
Here's.

Ashley Spicer (37:16.002)
I think what Ben has though, I think Ben.

Ben has a likability factor. You brought up Roddick. I grew up going to same academy. I was coached by Roddick's brother. For all intents and purposes, I should have been looking up at Roddick. Ben has a different likability factor than Roddick ever did. And I think that's the difference for me in saying, think that because of that, if Ben can keel, and we're putting a lot of pressure on this guy, don't listen to this, Ben. You never hear this. It's fine. No pressure. Do your best.

Torrey Hawkins (37:49.924)
Nahahaha

Ashley Spicer (37:51.547)
you know, because we've had the, top two, top four, you know, big three, big four, think if bit, an American is part of that conversation now, that's the difference. Right. And that like ability factor, I think, I think turns it for me.

Alvin Owusu (38:07.316)
I'm with you as far as the personality differences between the two and how they do, okay, Ben is, what, Ben's 20, he's 21, 22? He's quite young, right? At this point, I Andy had already won Grand Slam, right? So, but for their ages, both being young, yeah, Ben is more likable. He's more, I'm not gonna say marketable because Andy won at Grand Slam. That's a highly marketable thing. He was on.

Ashley Spicer (38:20.063)
yeah.

Alvin Owusu (38:36.606)
talk shows and dated Mandy Moore. He was that dude. mean, he was that dude, but we're talking about a very different time. This is damn near pre-internet. This is definitely pre-social media.

Torrey Hawkins (38:49.097)
Okay.

Ashley Spicer (38:51.158)
This was in the era of MySpace, right? MySpace was just coming on, right? A little bit.

Alvin Owusu (38:53.972)
Andy's only a year older than me. It was close, but it was definitely before Facebook, let's put it that way. So it's a very different space and marketability is one thing, personality is one thing from a tennis standpoint. Right now Ben can't hold a candle to what Andy was able to do, like Tori mentioned, yeah, what Tori mentioned, and think actually actually brought this up.

Ashley Spicer (39:01.921)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (39:05.401)
In the same time frame.

Alvin Owusu (39:23.642)
Last time we got all the three of us got together, there is so much space left for him to improve. There's so much space and he is, he is there. He's in the conversation with these guys. He's losing to these guys at slams. I'm sure this retirement this week, but he's got some work to do, but he's continually to, he's adding things every year at this rate already. I don't see why he won't continue to get better. Will he win? Will he win a slam?

Ashley Spicer (39:29.026)
Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (39:54.425)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Write it down. 100%. Write it down. Absolutely. 100%.

Alvin Owusu (39:54.591)
Meh. Absolutely, I don't even write this down. Okay, it is August 30th in the year of our Lord 2025.

Ashley Spicer (40:02.258)
I think he's just still on the climb with that bell curve. Lots of potential, absolutely. I'm with Tori on this one. We're united on the-

Alvin Owusu (40:06.674)
Yeah, weird things happen, weird things happen. Weird things happen.

Torrey Hawkins (40:09.081)
Weird things happen. He, he will, he will win one. Absolutely. I think he's top 10 a year ahead of schedule. I think he will be top five within, with, with, this injury will only hopefully it's just a small one will only be the kind of setback he needs to work on some other things. I was on this talk show, Alvin, this podcast with you talking about the things he needed to improve to break in the top 10 to get rid of so he could start having to your point, Ashley.

some more consistent results. And I'll be darned if he hadn't fixed every single one of them. Now there's still more to go on. And my whole thought, I don't want belabor my point about the Rodman analogy, was that there, he's never been smooth. He's never, you heard right here, Alvin, Emma, his older sister, was a smoother tennis player than he was, right? And he's just always had the competitive drive that would not stop. Brian talked to our USDA coaching group about it. And he talked about a time

when Ben had been sick, he playing for Florida and he had not been able to play. And he was like, you're not going to play. says, and Ben says, dude, I need to play. And he was like, you haven't hit a ball in two weeks. He says, I don't care. I'd rather go compete than I would sit and back and watch. He says, of course he went out, got beat. He remembered the guy that beat him. And I'm laughing as a dad and the coach, Ben wanted to play. You know what I was so impressed in this match?

Ben probably got hurt midway through that match and decided to play anyway. He was so competitive. He thought he could beat Mamarino hurt. And I say that to say you tell me this guy won't win a slam. Absolutely not. This guy will win at least one, maybe two. And unfortunately for him, he's going to do it with two of the best players currently playing the game. And many others have failed. It's his competitiveness that I am.

Alvin Owusu (41:40.052)
Third set, third set, yep.

Torrey Hawkins (42:06.828)
doubling down on Alvin even more than his game and his likeability. That's my point.

Alvin Owusu (42:08.72)
Okay. Okay, all right. I'm gonna let you in with that one. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna switch over to the women's side and we'll start tackling some of those matches.

Alvin Owusu (43:02.772)
Okay, all right, we're back. Over to the women's side. We're gonna clear out here because I think right now the biggest story on the women's side is Taylor Townsend, right? And we, lucky us that we're recording this podcast tonight because we've had a Taylor Townsend kind of week.

Torrey Hawkins (43:06.485)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (43:30.337)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (43:30.46)
where obviously the incident with Elena Ostapenko happened, right? We all knew, I think we predicted it here, that was gonna be a special match. I think we got a little more than we bargained for, right? It was on ESPN. It was on the national news. The whole thing, it's been covered, right? But from a tennis standpoint, Taylor went back to work.

Ashley Spicer (43:44.054)
Yep. Yep.

Ashley Spicer (43:50.143)
It has been everywhere.

Torrey Hawkins (43:53.675)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (43:59.174)
She won her double smash the next day. And then she took out a top five Miria Andreeva the following day. Yep, please go.

Ashley Spicer (44:04.342)
The fact, I could not be more impressed with the fact that she has not allowed the drama, the conversation, all of that to even slightly break her focus. In fact, I think it's helped her focus even harder. I've been so impressed by that. You can see that fight in the fire in her eyes. I love the fact she went out the next day, played doubles, won. She's just took down the number five seed as well. She's playing some of the best in us, I think I've ever seen her play.

you know, in a very long time at least. you know, it frustrates me sometimes as the tennis person of like, that's got to be the thing that pops off and, you know, makes the rounds, you know, the drama that unnecessarily happened. But at the same time, I love how Taylor's responding to it. I think that speaks to her as a person. I think that speaks to her maturity as a player. And I think that this happened, you know, eight, nine years ago.

Any player would have fallen apart and to see her turning around and use it as motivation, I could not be more proud.

Alvin Owusu (45:06.675)
And the part that, know, kind of following the hard court swing this summer leading up to the US Open, Taylor's been playing some good tennis. And you you get Oste Penko in the first, was it the first round or the second round? Doesn't really matter, second round, right? We all saw that match and was like, okay, that's going to be one to watch. She played well, like after the first 25 minutes of that match, she played really well and she locked in.

Ashley Spicer (45:15.426)
Absolutely.

Ashley Spicer (45:22.124)
second.

Torrey Hawkins (45:22.853)
second.

Ashley Spicer (45:27.51)
top.

Absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (45:36.39)
and she won a match against a former Grand Slam winner, right? So that is a tennis thing. And then the other stuff happened. And I think it's good to kind of take it from a macro view of like who Taylor Townsend is and what she's been through with the organization that puts on the US Open, right? It's a very long story of her at a very young age being a very good player with the best players in our country and not being embraced by this system. You're also seeing it now where

Torrey Hawkins (45:49.14)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (46:03.03)
you

Alvin Owusu (46:06.159)
she doesn't have a clothing sponsor. She's doing things her own way. She's making her own clothing and blazing her own path. And she's playing doubles and playing singles. She's always done things her way. And I was a little shocked because I had Ash tickets last night, right? I was a little shocked that she got that spot. But then I thought, man, this is such a great opportunity, right? The whole world is watching after what happened against Panko.

Torrey Hawkins (46:09.684)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (46:28.473)
Right. Right.

Ashley Spicer (46:33.302)
Bye!

Alvin Owusu (46:34.215)
The USDA goes double down. Okay, fine. We're gonna put her prime time Friday night, US open, Labor Day weekend. The whole world was watching and she was lights out from damn near first ball and completely owned Mira Andrava. And then everything else is falling into place, right? The cameras are in her face. She's delivering every time someone's coming to talk to her. She's showing that personality. She is being.

Torrey Hawkins (46:37.947)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (46:55.893)
you

Alvin Owusu (47:02.851)
everything that you want out of an American tennis star and she's doing it her way and I think like right now like I'm gonna give her her flowers right now because you don't know when she's gonna lose if she's gonna lose but I'm so glad she was able to back up and she met the moment like meeting the moment is huge and she did that in space. Tori go ahead.

Torrey Hawkins (47:07.882)
Yep.

Ashley Spicer (47:17.206)
Yes. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (47:19.082)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (47:24.731)
Not only was I impressed with her level of play, I was impressed with how she handled the whole Panko situation. She didn't get down in the dirt with her. She simply repeated what she said, called her out and said, I'm not backing down from this. And you know what? I beat you in Canada before that's outside the US brand. We'll do this again. And I like the fact that she kept it about tennis, even

As it seemed that Yolanda was trying to cheapen her win. I also want to say this. I don't think Yolanda was inherently racist with her comments. I think it was more of a cheap shot as a player who was losing. I think the media may have blown it up a little out of proportion. Let's make no mistake about that. At the same time, sharing the same color as Candace Taylor, I completely understand what the inherent, pseudo,

Ashley Spicer (48:11.426)
Thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (48:23.068)
racist tropes are for long time. The no education, the no class, you should have put your hand up on the let cord. Really? You know what? Even if I do do it, I'm faking it. I'm doing it because I have to because tennis etiquette says so. Alvin, if you and I are playing a breaker right now and I had a let cord at 7-6, I'll put my hand up and right behind it, I'm going to say, on, and I will shake your head.

Alvin Owusu (48:34.544)
Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (48:36.226)
Right.

Ashley Spicer (48:48.066)
Sometimes that fist bump's gotta come out first and you go, sorry, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (48:48.435)
Exactly.

Torrey Hawkins (48:51.476)
No, to my point, depending on how hard fought that 7-6 was. I say it to say, if that's what you had to say, Yolanda, you know what? Put your girl, put your big girl pants on and let's try to figure this out the next time. I wanna also say, and this is the best quote she said after the match, talking to another first, which is Chris Eubanks being the one to interview her after that match. She said, I kept the main thing, the main thing. And that meant to me she had moved on past drama.

Alvin Owusu (48:51.805)
Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (48:54.818)
Exactly, exactly.

Ashley Spicer (49:02.402)
Exactly.

Torrey Hawkins (49:20.816)
and embrace the moment as you said Alvin, but she did so talking with her racket. That's what I loved about it. She stepped up and played with her racket. I had never seen her backhand look that clean. She has a great backhand. She did as much from the back court Alvin as she did from the front court. We all know Taylor and Volley. So that's what was really impressed to me was how she handled that before. Didn't let it distract Ashley, point. But she talked with her racket the next day. But I think she's starting to play

Alvin Owusu (49:26.941)
So let's.

Ashley Spicer (49:32.77)
Absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (49:38.831)
yeah, yeah.

Ashley Spicer (49:39.326)
yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (49:49.831)
coming into her own and you know what Alvin, who's to say that it wasn't meant to be this way for her to earn it like this her own way and to tell her own story.

Alvin Owusu (49:56.605)
Well, let's keep going down that path of keeping it about the tennis, right? Because I think her next round matchup is very, it's very apropos that she's playing Barbara Krachikova, who might be the model for what Taylor is trying to do. Barbara multiple time Grand Slam doubles, like women's doubles and mixed doubles champion, right? A lot of it with Sinyakova. And then decided to forge her own path in singles and make a go at it.

Torrey Hawkins (50:09.147)
Next.

Ashley Spicer (50:10.336)
Yeah. Yep.

Ashley Spicer (50:17.004)
Yep, absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (50:17.267)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (50:26.333)
put the focus there and then wins two Grand Slams as a singles player, Lots of craft, lots of skill around the court, obviously can finish at the net. We're talking about different versions of a very similar game style though, Like Krijikova versus Townsend, so I think it's very appropriate that they're meeting each other. Also, Barbora is, she's on one right now. If she's fit, she's the threat. And if she's fit,

Ashley Spicer (50:50.369)
Yes, sir.

Torrey Hawkins (50:50.563)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (50:56.275)
plus scrapping out matches, watch out. Like taking down MN of RO at the US Open is like, know, that's no joke. The American crowds are very, very real and she got herself through a tricky one. Anytime Barbara was getting past the first week, my antennas are up. That's where I live with that. And I'm excited for that match, that's gonna be a fun one.

Torrey Hawkins (51:01.341)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (51:04.671)
So, thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (51:19.339)
Right. Yep.

Ashley Spicer (51:20.0)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And know, Barbara, you know, coming back from a set down against Navarro, right, and being able to close that and relatively, you know, four and four is not you're walking over, right? It's not as if Navarro had a meltdown. She did, you know, rise to the occasion and beat her fairly. I'm excited to see that. Obviously, I'm going to going to lean towards Taylor on this one.

Alvin Owusu (51:29.128)
Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (51:45.027)
and just hope that she can keep putting it together. do think, Tori, to your point, you have to look at it as, this the way it was supposed to happen for her? This maturation arc and things like that. I would love to see her put the pieces together and make a really deep run here into the second week. I'm looking forward to seeing that. On the single side, let's be clear. She does it on the double side.

Torrey Hawkins (51:53.021)
Yeah. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (52:04.019)
Look, she looked like she's got another she looked like she's just now starting to find herself in a groove in the tennis and the single side. And again, I think that continue to talk with the racket. I think it speaks volumes. It speaks volumes that we're able to move past it. And the fact that she put an exclamation point behind it, it was even better. Unfortunate for me, she got kind of caught up in a lot of it right now. I don't think she's still young, right? She may not have understood.

Alvin Owusu (52:05.554)
up.

Torrey Hawkins (52:33.778)
some of the, you know, if you will, some of the cosmic energy that was fueling the other side. And I think Mero is not quite ready just yet. She looked like she was every bit of, you know, a bit of a deer in headlights a little bit with a very amped up, very passionate, very focused and determined mother of one, you know what I mean? So this young lady has dealt with many things so far in her young career. She has not dealt with that.

Ashley Spicer (52:38.22)
strip.

Torrey Hawkins (53:01.926)
You know what I mean? She's not dealt with that sort of situation. And so again, hats off to her. We will see much, much more from here. I have no doubt. But it's something that, you know, Alvin, we were talking about this against the, was it Peyton Stearns? That played Venus in that match in DC, right? So I was like, I don't think Peyton was ready for this, for this little bit of a media frenzy and to play a Venus, a former multi-time Grand Slam champion. You're not ready for this shit. You think you are. You think it's about the tennis.

Alvin Owusu (53:15.846)
First round at DC, yeah, very similar.

Torrey Hawkins (53:31.762)
You know what mean? But it's a little bigger than that tennis from time to time. And I think this is one of those matches.

Ashley Spicer (53:31.778)
Yeah, and it's not.

Alvin Owusu (53:37.341)
You know, and speaking of mothers and former Grand Slam champions, Naomi Osaka has, Naomi Osaka, I mentioned this coming out of Canada, even though she lost to Vicky in the final, she's found something. She's found herself in her game right now, and she's, I'm not even gonna say she looks like the old Naomi, but she's,

Ashley Spicer (53:43.266)
I was just about to bring her up, you meddled my mind.

Torrey Hawkins (54:00.614)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (54:07.502)
she's looking at the world like the old Naomi. Like I am one of the ones you need to worry about. And she's carrying herself like that. And her tennis is following suit. And I watched today's match kind of back and forth with the center match very intently. That thing almost got out of hand. Like it almost got out of hand. She came out guns a blazing, you know, really.

Ashley Spicer (54:30.005)
Yep, I did.

Alvin Owusu (54:35.794)
putting her game plan against Daria Casquena to the, like, when those two match up, it should be like that. Like, you're going to get a lot of short balls, step inside the court, force, force, force, corner, corner, corner, and then naturally Daria catches up, right? We get knotted in, and then we get into this third set, I say four, five second set, gets broken. At that point, you could assume, like, okay, maybe we crumble.

Ashley Spicer (54:46.902)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (55:04.122)
Maybe Naomi of six months ago shows up. Yes, yes, but she came out refocused in that third set and was right back on Daria and I was like, okay, all right, this is where it all started, right? This is where, we were back, we were back in New York where it all started, go ahead.

Ashley Spicer (55:04.159)
Right. The recent, the recent Naomi crumbles on that. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (55:08.805)
Yep. Yep.

Ashley Spicer (55:18.209)
Absolutely.

Exactly. We said that, you know, in our preview show that it's all up to Naomi. She could decide to quit tennis tomorrow. She can decide to go win a Grand Slam tomorrow, right? It's all going to be her mental mindset you're spot on that her mentality is leading her and her actual playing and game is kind of following along as with most players, right? But I think it's particularly evident with her because she's been

honestly, you know, very vulnerable and transparent about the ups and downs that she's had mentally with her with her mentality and her focus and her kind of desire to do it. I also you know, I think that she's been a very thoughtful ally to to this whole drama, right and kind of, you know, had a very measured approach spoke, you know, spoke on behalf of both players. And I think everyone everyone on tour has done a really nice job of that.

Torrey Hawkins (56:06.491)
You did.

Ashley Spicer (56:08.929)
and kind of understanding that clearly it was a heat in the moment kind of a thing. But.

Her ear for her to come back after that second set. I thought she was done I I was like I at the end of the second set I was like, I don't think I think Osaka's done. She's had a good run You know, she'll kind of pack it up and for her to come back out exactly refocused still hitting her spots Still looking hungry, right? It's been a long time since I've seen her really look hungry to win and she looked hungry to win So I'm excited to see what happens. It's definitely different than what I thought was gonna happen at the beginning of the tournament I kind of got new

to her lack of desire, frankly. And to see it return here, it's exciting. She's a great player and a great planner. It's exciting to watch, for sure.

Torrey Hawkins (57:02.978)
It reminded me, Ashley, first of all, your points about her in the media stepping into that fray alone shows maturity. She didn't hang Yelena out to dry. She actually even explained Yelena a little bit on to the most people in a way that I don't think Yelena would even mind, right? Had she been in the same room, she made up, she took up for Taylor in a, you know, again.

Ashley Spicer (57:23.114)
Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (57:30.032)
Naomi's dad's black. We get her understanding on the color side of things. But she didn't. She stepped into the fray in probably a way that only she could and also spoke to it very honestly and very openly without nailing, without vilifying one and vindicating the other. She just spoke to it. And I thought that was a very, I like your word, measured. Let's not forget she did beat Daria 6-0 in first set. So let's not talk about.

Ashley Spicer (57:49.076)
Absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (57:58.377)
She did.

Torrey Hawkins (57:59.384)
She came out and bagel my girl and play some good tennis. And the last thing we were talking about Naomi a few weeks back was how she didn't give in vocal enough credit or mention her in the in the speech. Another time honored tradition of of of etiquette right there. We're supposed to adhere to and here's a four time Grand Slam champ saying I can't believe that it's taken me this long to get back to my form. You know you guys have and I think I was very pleased with her.

Alvin Owusu (58:12.379)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (58:28.865)
Even her attempting to step into that fray with the media being what it is. And I also thought, thought, and you both said it already about her coming back. I think this is a new Naomi. This is a, I'm not sure if I was just playing really well and was young and I was so focused and dialed in that that was, that was all that life had for me. And quite frankly, like Jordan in the first three championships, maybe even got a little bored with it. Like,

I beat the best of all time doing things. You know, I'm to get into management. I'm going to get in. There's so many things I want to do only to come back to it to realize the next three were actually the most, the most difficult because age now kicks in. And I feel like her being a mom now as well. I feel like her, her maturity is coming back, change coaches. She has shown me that she is trying her best to become the best Naomi she can now. We can't

Ashley Spicer (59:23.937)
Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (59:26.785)
We can no longer look at the old Naomi or measure her to the old. No, that time has gone. That time has passed. And by the way, those trophies still sit in her case, by the way, she's that will never taken away. But it's we we're in a different era where she's at a different time. And to me, the fact that she's still trying to put it together and is having some success, mind you, I think that that is great for tennis. I think her story is great for tennis. And I think that it's.

Alvin Owusu (59:32.443)
Well, let's.

Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (59:53.268)
awesome that she's recommitted herself because that was also the issue I had. Was she going to recommit to really do it? Not just dip her toe in the water and bounce.

Ashley Spicer (59:58.603)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:00.092)
So, okay, so I'll stop you there then. Let's get right into it though. She's got Cocoa Golf in the next round, right? Talk about, I mean, you can take this a lot of different ways, right? But what the hell are we doing? What are we doing? Cocoa is somewhere where, mean, her game is somewhere, but she's in the fourth round. This feels like a classic,

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:12.43)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:30.065)
Cocoa Golf, beautiful mess kind of tournament. How does that work with Naomi Osaka here at the US Open specifically?

Ashley Spicer (01:00:40.833)
I think Naomi's very dangerous to Coco right now. think if you're, if you're Coco, you can not, you're, it's going to be a test. Right. And I think, you know, to Tori's point, like Naomi coming out, this is, this is where she does shine. Right. And this is where she, if match is going to happen is where a match is going to happen for Naomi. And Coco needs to really make sure that she digs in and has a really great game plan and really, you know, kind of looks at how Naomi has been playing the last two matches.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:41.518)
Mm.

Ashley Spicer (01:01:10.879)
I think Coco's gotta tighten it up in order to get past Naomi at this point.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:15.505)
So I watched that match, like I said, I watched that match today, Naomi's match against Kazukina, and I was thinking about Coco being the person on the other end, and I just feel like that actually works really well for Coco, because she's comfortable on defense. She's gonna make Naomi hit a million balls. Like, can Naomi sustain that level of concentration and execution?

Ashley Spicer (01:01:34.923)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:35.677)
So, I'm make the ending.

and they'll be staying in that level.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:44.944)
for that long against a player who's that much faster than Dario Kazakina. Like I think, I don't know about you Torb, but I think that's kind of where the matchup, like that's where this match lives. Can Naomi hold on and play offense? It's on Naomi, yeah, but that's a hard, I mean, it's on Arena Sabalinka, right? It's always on the other person with Coco.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:49.481)
Naomi

Ashley Spicer (01:01:57.026)
But it's on Naomi's terms. It's on Naomi.

for sure. I think, think, I think what, just to jump in there real quick is to say like Coco is a great player. but I think it's, it's dependent on can Naomi sustain.

that high level of tennis, again, through the duration of a match against a fierce defender like Coco, she's clearly capable of it, but will she be able to do it this time? I think we're not necessarily looking at Coco saying, here's how Coco is gonna hurt Naomi, besides her obvious great defense mentality.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:41.483)
I think this match is gonna come down to a few more X's and O's. You've all heard the fable of Briar Rabbit in the Briar Patch, right? Naomi's biggest mistake if she makes it is to play offense against Coco. Coco has had, it's been well documented, serving issues to the point that she hired a new mechanics coach two days before the open. I feel, aside from attacking the return of serve,

But she did a great job against Kazukina doing. I feel if she comes out and plays a very solid mental match and says, no, no, no, no, no, you're the two seed. Yeah. I've got four slams to my end that I sent my case back home, but, you're the top player. You beat me. And I think if she comes out with a different mentality, saying, I don't have to beat you. That was her problem with them Boko and in, Canada, she tried to beat the younger.

Ashley Spicer (01:03:29.11)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:40.301)
player who excelled in defense instead of saying, can you beat me though? Can you take it from me? I'm still pretty fast. I'm still pretty good on the backhand side last time I checked and my serve is not terrible. So used to be one of top in the world. I was able to play defense against a Serena when she was phasing out, uh, going toward the golden, the sunset, a part of her career. I think if she approaches the match like that, Alvin, she could be the absolute worst nightmare.

for Cocoa Golf because she has every shot. If she comes out and tries to out hit, go through, she will single-handedly help Cocoa get to the finals of this event because of tightening her up a little bit. And I'm hoping for Naomi's sake that she plays a smarter match and doesn't put Briar Rabbit in the Briar Patch.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:30.202)
wouldn't.

Wouldn't that be the first time though for Naomi to like, I mean I understood right, 2018 right when she beat Serena in the finals of the US Open, that's a very different version of Naomi, even a very different version of Naomi in the 2018 to 2021 period right, like that Naomi, that was the beginning right. Since then, Naomi doesn't play defense, like she doesn't play to weight on anybody. I have a hard time.

Ashley Spicer (01:04:45.514)
Exactly.

Ashley Spicer (01:04:50.625)
thousand percent.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:02.544)
foreseeing her going that route, the Badosa route, Badosa Australian Open route, right? That was the blueprint of just let her fall apart.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:14.508)
Let her fall apart, match up heavy on the forehand side, attack the second serve, roll if necessary. I just feel Alvin. He just had this bit of taste in Canada and what was it, Montreal? Just a few short weeks, was it Toronto? Just a few short weeks ago. And I think if that sour taste is still there, she realizes that Coco is just a little better version of Vicky. And I'm not saying she will do it. I'm saying if it's in her best interest to do it.

because Coco is like a younger her. How would she play her younger self? She would not play offense because that activates the faster, more instinctive, more, I need not to think too much. I need to just grip them. I need to just cover court and hit open spaces when I see them. And that would actually turn the tide in my opinion. If Naomi wins this match, I see her going deep in this tournament because I think she's, that would give her the confidence she needs.

The flip side of that, if and unfortunately she's had some serving issues, she's been emotional about it. I think we all understand this is not the best, sorry, Coco, this has not been the best Coco golf tournament that we've seen up to this point. She's somehow managed to get through and I said on this podcast before, she needs to spend more time on some of those things that have been perennial issues for her. This is not the first time her serving foreign have been issues. We've been saying this for five years, maybe longer. And I am one to think she has a huge upside.

But I would like to see her spend a little more time on some of those things and not let them get to this point. She hasn't really played phenomenal since French, right? And here I am now saying she's at the, she's at the sprint. There's one person that could expose this when her name is Naomi Osaka. And there's one person that will benefit and either of will benefit from the others not taking advantage, right? Because tightening up Coco will send Naomi to the conference she needs and beat Naomi will give Coco.

Ashley Spicer (01:07:00.405)
Thank you.

Ashley Spicer (01:07:05.643)
Yep. Okay. Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:08.383)
the confidence she needs to continue to push forward and be like, I'm good. So this match to me has a lot of momentum and inertia for either person, whoever comes out on top. In my humble opinion.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:23.248)
In your humble opinion. Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's a really interesting matchup. You can't take out the crowd factor, mean Naomi is a, she's won this event twice. She feels comfortable here, the crowd loves her. And yet, she's playing against our top American player, the one who American tennis kind of relies on right now. And just one thing about the Cocoa Golf.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:48.57)
shoot.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:52.655)
The last thing about Cocoa Golf that I'm gonna say is everything that you said, Tori, is every Cocoa Golf tournament. she, this is exactly how she won the French Open, it was the same. It was was the same, and that's her superpower. Like, when all is happening, the forehand's failing, okay, the serve is failing. Okay, what is she doing? she's still winning. She's still winning. I'll try better next round. And then she's still winning.

Ashley Spicer (01:07:59.298)
It's always the same.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:05.93)
for a set.

Ashley Spicer (01:08:20.085)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:21.956)
So I'm not gonna get caught up in this. This whole how well Coco Golf is playing at any given moment in time is irrelevant. Her brain will be there, her legs will be there. And if those two show up, she's got like 80 % chance of winning this match, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:36.532)
Yep. Yep, and our back end will be there. Yeah.

Ashley Spicer (01:08:38.099)
It is, is depending on how, which Naomi shows up, right? And, and, and is it going to be strategic, mature Naomi? Or is she going to, potentially get, get sucked into, you know, battle of? Exactly.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:42.808)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:47.082)
That's right.

I gotta play like I played four years ago, five years ago and beat this young girl down. I agree.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:55.483)
I know what Coco's B game is, and C and D game. Let's see if Naomi, it's the same, news flash, it's the same. Let's see if Naomi can get to hearse. Let's see if Naomi can get to hearse. What have we not covered? What have we not covered? I think we might be good. I think we're good. We've covered a lot. We've seen some good things from former Gladiator Champions. Rebecca is playing really, really good tennis right now.

Ashley Spicer (01:08:57.345)
Ha ha.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:59.752)
Yeah, it doesn't change much.

Ashley Spicer (01:09:03.923)
It's thinking.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:24.718)
Watch out. And Carlos is putting on a clinic right now. Von Drisola's coming through. There's a...

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:28.266)
Well, Vondrasova as well, by the way. let's not add Krugikova for sure, but you cannot forget about Vondrasova. She is.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:35.33)
Ega just snuck through, she just took out, who is she playing? Kalinskaya, that's a good win to get herself back on track. Yeah, I'm excited for the rest of event. You'll see more from us kinda as we get closer and closer to the meat and potatoes this event. But yeah, if you guys haven't, like, subscribe, do the thing, follow, email, text, carry pigeon, whatever. Yeah, smoke signal, yeah, yes.

Ashley Spicer (01:10:00.417)
Smoke signal. All good.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:02.406)
Hehehehehe

Alvin Owusu (01:10:04.196)
Chimneys work, all the things, all the things. But yeah, that's it. I think we can put a pin in it. That's Ashley, that's Tory, I'm Alvin. That's three, we are out.

Ashley Spicer (01:10:06.625)
you