Ep. 65: Top 25 WTA Players of the Last 25 Years | #25–21 Breakdown

Alvin Owusu (00:00.27)
Very subjective. Welcome to another subjective episode of the best of three podcasts. I'm still Alvin, that's still Tori, TH, how you doing, man?

Torrey Hawkins (00:00.337)
It's very subjective.

Yeah, ain't that the truth.

I'm good, Alvin, I'm good. I was just telling you, this exercise you got me doing, man, I tell you, I have never been so conflicted. I know you're about to explain to everybody, but this one has me doing a mental twister. You know what I mean? And I feel like at every given player, when you're starting to look at 25 of the best in the last 25 years, it really, it seems straightforward.

Alvin Owusu (00:25.911)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (00:39.806)
but the more you think about it, it's a little bit more complicated than it may seem on the outset because if you were to compare the greats on one hand and then you were to insert and overlay the current in their stead, that's where it gets tricky. And at least that's what I did. And maybe that was my problem. But to your point, I'll let you give the level set and whatnot,

Alvin Owusu (01:06.06)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06.408)
Yeah, Mental Twister is a very, I mean, I'm still crossed up in the game.

Alvin Owusu (01:10.466)
That's what I like to do. I like to keep you on your toes. Keep you on your toes. And like you mentioned, we are gathered here today and for the foreseeable weeks in the future to do a little hard look back. We've done a lot of grand slams over the last 100 days or so, three grand slams that we've packed in. But it is 2025 and I thought this is a really good time to take a snapshot of the first.

Torrey Hawkins (01:39.249)
and talk.

Alvin Owusu (01:39.855)
25 years of this century. So the exercise that I gave to you was let's rank on both men's and women's side, come up with a list of the best 25 players of the last 25 years. And kind of here are your loose parameters, right? Like obviously there are some players who are currently playing right now, but we're going to pretend like they are retiring today. Their career is over, all right? The slam total is the slam total

Torrey Hawkins (02:04.167)
Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (02:09.39)
career high is career high, weeks at number one is weeks at number one. Going back to 2000, we're gonna take players who had either the bulk or the peak of their career from 2000 plus. And that's where it gets a little bit tricky because we do have some players that are kind of on the fringe and you get to use your discretion there. Yeah, discretion is a big one and I think we both took that and addressed the exercise in the way that we

Torrey Hawkins (02:28.915)
Mm, it's a great word.

Alvin Owusu (02:38.638)
The way that we thought was best and you know for the for the listeners and viewers we I gave this assignment quote-unquote assignment to th and then we have not spoken about it as like you just come up with your 25 I'm gonna come up with my 25 and then we will we will we will reveal our findings together in a very Private slash public space because there's a lot of you here We're gonna and we're gonna feel we're gonna we're gonna feel through it. We're gonna so so in this episode We're gonna go from we're starting the women's

Torrey Hawkins (03:00.242)
Yeah.

Republic.

Alvin Owusu (03:08.558)
We're gonna do the number 25, working our way backwards to 21. So we'll release, we'll do five every episode for the next five-ish weeks, depending on what pops up between now and then. And then we'll move on to the men's, and then that should get you to Christmas for all you listeners out there. Okay, TH, would you like to start, I'm let you start first. I'm gonna let you start first, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (03:40.018)
And I have to say this as a preface, any of these are a crap shoot in terms of order. And this exercise, let me flip it back. This exercise made me realize how blessed I had been as a tennis player and tennis fan to watch some of the greats in the game. And when I am,

Alvin Owusu (03:43.458)
Say it, say it.

Torrey Hawkins (04:09.628)
tossing up who was better between these two two-time Grand Slam champs that I have in the 21 through 25. I started to go back and think about some of those matches I attended in person and I said I could not have foreseen a time going forward at that time when it would get that much better. I thought then it was pretty good.

Alvin Owusu (04:24.942)
Mmm.

Torrey Hawkins (04:37.65)
and to see the iterations continue to get better. It's all gotten better, right? So it's relative and yet it's still so significant. So I say this with the most humility and with the most appreciation of what I've been able to see. And I have to put that out there because I've been grateful as a tennis player to be able to watch and even have this space here to speak on.

Alvin Owusu (05:02.126)
Well, let me ask you this as well then while you're going, then how did you kind of attack this? Like what kind of methodology did you put in place to help you make some of the tough decisions if there was any in place at all?

Torrey Hawkins (05:13.627)
So many tough decisions. When you're talking about greats, unfortunately, you have to talk about championships and you have to talk about if there was a tiebreaker here and there, had to be going down to most finals. If it was something in that regard, unfortunately, the top had the best, the most finals as well. that wasn't much of a deal breaker for most cases. I did.

leak into some of the early 90s. There's one player in particular, which we'll get into in a future episode, whose career was cut short, you know, and I feel like had it not been for a very unfortunate stabbing incident, I thought she could have gone well into the 2000s. So I included her and maybe one or two others that I felt were right there. But I also wanted, I also felt like it was important to lean on that 99 going into 2000.

timeframe because that was a very pivotal point considering some of the goats of the game and people played because that was a very very important point a turning point if you will hinge point in women's tennis one that the game would never be the same afterwards so

Alvin Owusu (06:23.927)
coming out of the Graff, Sellus era and right before the Williams Sisters era, we had a lot of changes happening, not just on the tour, but in the game as well. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (06:27.567)
Right?

Torrey Hawkins (06:31.536)
on the first.

Torrey Hawkins (06:36.336)
in the game. so, and you cannot even start this without speaking to, I didn't realize Chris Everloy had been in 34 finals, 34 Grand Slam Finals, can you believe that number? 34. I just settle that for a second. I mean, you know what I mean? And I think Martina had 32. I mean, you're you're blowing away, you knew they were good. I think they have 17 each. You're blowing away by that number.

Alvin Owusu (06:53.965)
Yeah, it's a lot.

Torrey Hawkins (07:05.617)
Most of all time. just, I say that to say that's how difficult a task this was. And now we're putting people because of the time increment, we're not including Martina and Chris, right? But in any list, they would be three and four, arguably higher. know what I mean? So, what that's.

Alvin Owusu (07:16.737)
Nope. Nope.

Alvin Owusu (07:25.057)
And I think that's the value of the exercise though. Like we're in the now, let's slice it up a little bit. We're gonna go just this era, this time period, if you will, the last 25-ish years.

Torrey Hawkins (07:39.514)
So, out.

Alvin Owusu (07:40.525)
Number 25, what you got?

Torrey Hawkins (07:42.714)
Mary Pierce. Mary Pierce, two time Grand Slam champ, finished in her, she was right near the top of her career between 95 and 2000. So that's why she's a perfect, I'm gonna say segue into the whole thing. Saw her match at the open when she won her slam the second time. Knew her brother Brad, had a few hits with her. She was just phenomenal, phenomenal ball striker.

It's funny looking back on it. I see a lot of, she was an early iteration of a arena, know, of a sabalaca with her big strokes and big serve and body frame and all that. Just absolutely, and I feel like I'm not even doing it justice to put her 25 and yet there are so many great ones that I had to leave off. So I feel like it's a good place to start. There's my 25.

Alvin Owusu (08:18.861)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (08:32.961)
Well, with her, like, I mean, you kind of look at her career window. When I went through this exercise, I tried to look at players' peaks, right, to really understand, you when were they really at it? Because I usually assume a three-year peak for any player. And then when you go to look at it, it's like, it's about right. Sometimes longer. The greater the player, the wider the window, actually. And Mary Pierce is an interesting one. And I see why you had her at 25.

Torrey Hawkins (08:51.043)
Yep. Right. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (08:59.629)
Cause I mean, she, she filed her first grand slam in 1994, right? You could argue her peak was 94 to 97, but then wins French open in 2000 and then picked up two more finals at one of the French open, one in the U.S. open in 2005. So that, that kind of came out of nowhere. So now you're talking about it exactly, exactly. So you're talking about a 10 year window here. So, um, that's a, that's, I think that's a good, uh, that's a good use of discretion there. Um, I got no beef with Mary Pierce at all.

Torrey Hawkins (09:11.016)
Boom.

Torrey Hawkins (09:17.935)
When you thought she was done.

Alvin Owusu (09:29.965)
yeah. I mean, if you, if you, even if you look at it from just what she did from 2000 on one grand slam win, two grants and finals that, that'll, that'll, that'll, that'll put you on the list. That'll put you on this list for sure. last time I

Torrey Hawkins (09:30.766)
Hard to argue with her body of work.

Torrey Hawkins (09:46.639)
And that's where, and the second thing I looked at besides championships was I tried to give the nod to the younger player, of course, current players who can still get more, right? They're gonna be, if things are tied, that younger player is gonna go ahead. And I also went with that trend and said, okay, I'm going to all things being equal, the player that came a little bit later by definition may have been a bit strong.

Alvin Owusu (10:05.197)
Mmm.

Torrey Hawkins (10:16.303)
as the game got stronger. while I have Mary at 25, I won't tell you my 24 just yet. I'll let you say you're 25. But at that point, I kind of went in ascending order going towards time with the closer to our current timeframe in that same body of work being a player that I felt would have been 24. was because you could argue Mary could be anywhere between 18 and 25 with two Grand Slams and two prefinals. So it wasn't like she wasn't

Alvin Owusu (10:18.381)
fair.

Torrey Hawkins (10:46.19)
better than 25, through the time frame I had started her there.

Alvin Owusu (10:50.881)
Gotcha. Okay, that's fair. That's fair. The last time I saw Mary Pierce, we were on a golf cart, a longer golf cart at IMG heading from the front courts to the back courts to watch one Sasha Sasha's Vera play at Eddie her that had to be 20. gosh, 2014, maybe. Lost lost in the first round, actually, Eddie her there you go. Sasha's Vera did me and Mary Pierce. Okay, so my number 25.

Torrey Hawkins (10:57.112)
yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (11:04.14)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (11:10.348)
Okay, okay, yep.

Torrey Hawkins (11:17.826)
Ha ha ha ha!

Alvin Owusu (11:19.005)
And kind of my ideology here is, like you mentioned, we've had a lot of one time Grand Slam champions. And normally, normally I look at greatness through the prism of winning Grand Slams, but we've had so many of them. In fact, we've had maybe 12 of them who have won, maybe higher than that, maybe 13 of them who have won one Grand Slam. And so that tells me that in this particular time period, maybe the value of a Grand Slam is a little bit lower and there's a

Torrey Hawkins (11:33.793)
Right.

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:48.493)
There's a better judge of greatness. Yeah, and so I looked at it from a standpoint of did you get to number one? And how long were you there in concert with your Grand Slam resume? So apologies to your Elena Ostapenko's, your Sophia Kennens, your Sloans and your Matties, all of them, all of them. My number 25 is DeNira Safina. Safina.

Torrey Hawkins (12:09.345)
Bianca's and so on. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (12:15.743)
wow, that's Marit's sister. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (12:17.868)
Yeah, that's how I feel about it. Hatter Peak, kind of like 06, 09, never won a Grand Slam, did get to world number one, held it down for about 26 weeks, right? So when you're at 26 weeks at number one, is a clear, to me a clear signal that I was the best player in the world for a minute, right? But yeah, think,

Torrey Hawkins (12:36.205)
Use a call.

Torrey Hawkins (12:41.997)
Yep, yep. And half the year ain't no slouch. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (12:47.328)
Half the years no slouch. And so for me, you take that with, yeah, she didn't win a Grand Slam, but she finaled three of them in a two year period, picked up two more semis. That's a little bit more valuable to me than Emma's hot three weeks or something. Not to poo poo on Emma, but there's a lot of them like that. There's a lot of them like that. I'm looking for sustained greatness and yeah, so on and so forth. Okay. I'll kick.

Torrey Hawkins (13:06.029)
Yeah, I know what you mean.

Torrey Hawkins (13:13.933)
Yeah, I'm with you. I think that's a great one to put in. I remember watching her play. I remember watching Morat work with her and her own coaches. I remember it was a good match that I was at. I had to have been with Sco at Pilot Pen and she was there. This is back when that was the tune up before US Open. And I think she won that event that year. And I remember watching her. I just always felt like

Alvin Owusu (13:27.18)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (13:43.981)
She was, she had so much more potential than she even had. She finally kind of got her own, kind of got her own bearings, know, a little bit like a arena again, you know, a little high strong, you know, a little bit extreme, a little emotional, but man, she hit a ball. I mean, she hit balls sometimes that you could see it in her face. It impressed her and she was like, ooh, I can do that again. And when I say big, I mean, we're talking,

Alvin Owusu (14:08.71)
Hahaha!

Torrey Hawkins (14:13.805)
90 mile an hour, four and some back ends. She played probably as close to Amanda Nisamova as a player I've seen, but a more mobile and athletic version. And so it's funny you mentioned Denara. I love watching Denara play, man. She was such a good ball striker, such a nice person, just very humble, just very, you know, as loud and as bigger than life as Marat was. She was just, she was the constant.

Alvin Owusu (14:24.96)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (14:41.782)
kid sister and by the way I play tennis yeah and to your point and I spent a few weeks at number one yeah yeah just I too I too could could could be good too and just so that's that's a great pick excellent excellent pick there 24

Alvin Owusu (14:44.544)
Right.

I too can be one of the world's.

Alvin Owusu (14:59.677)
Yeah, I'll kick it back to you.

Torrey Hawkins (15:01.588)
Svetlana Kuznatsava.

Alvin Owusu (15:04.328)
I like it a lot. I like it a lot.

Torrey Hawkins (15:05.878)
So you see where I'm going with this. You see what saying? So number one, in my 21 through five, the litmus test was each had to win a couple. I agree with you. One slam is a bit, I'm not going to say anything other than it's phenomenal. But from lightning the strike twice to me sends a statement. And what I felt was important for my list was for, to your point,

They had to be number one, win a slam, ideally both and hold it down for a minute. And nothing says dominance can be more than two plus slams. And especially again, I'm paying homage to those back in early 2000s, but I'm also kind of paying it forward. know, Svetlana did that in spades and I felt like she was a very underrated player. Dad was an Olympic.

cyclist from back in the day. came from great jeans, but I also say she put her mark on and was a darn good doubles player as well, Alvin. So I say that to tell you she's a very, very solid, come player coming in at number 24.

Alvin Owusu (16:15.734)
Okay, well I'm gonna back you up there, because I also feel like she's a very solid player. So solid that I had her ranked a little bit higher than you. I've actually got her a little further down the road, but we can go ahead and sprinkle the flowers on her. You win two slams, you get to number one in the world, you pick up two finals. Actually, did she get to one in the world? She did not get to one in the world. Yeah, career high number two, yeah. But she also had two doubles Grandstand titles.

Torrey Hawkins (16:36.747)
I don't think she got no more in the world. My notes didn't.

Alvin Owusu (16:45.012)
I think once we start getting into, like you mentioned, two slams, that's the real harbinger of like, okay, this is where the meat and potatoes of this list really comes from. Because that's where we start to make some space here from the one and done's. Yeah, got no issues with Svetlana on this list, obviously she's on my list as well. My number 24, this one's gonna be controversial, not gonna lie. Ana Ivanovich.

Torrey Hawkins (16:53.387)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (16:56.969)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (17:09.513)
Okay? Okay.

Alvin Owusu (17:14.824)
I know, this is, yeah, yeah, even, feel, like this is where ideology and methodology kind of butt heads.

Torrey Hawkins (17:27.04)
So tell me your reason.

Alvin Owusu (17:28.812)
She was ranked number one in the world for a week. She did get to one and she did win a Grand Slam. So when you take those two together, back it up with two more Grand Slam finals. And I held a little tighter line on that 2,000 mark. So if I had slid a little bit, could have, she would have been out. She would have been out.

Torrey Hawkins (17:50.12)
Right. Right.

Right, if you, right, where I, you know, I carved, my swath went a little wider. My swath went a bit wider into the 90s. They were still playing in 2000 situations. And that's fair. And let me tell you something, Anna was a great player. She came out the year, her,

Alvin Owusu (18:08.145)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (18:19.163)
And there's another young lady named Shahar Payer. I don't know if you remember her from back in the day. Shahar Payer, when she came out, they came around the same time, right in Scho's ITF, or just before Scho's ITF year. On the boys side, was players like, so Gasquet and Nadal that already came out, but they were the same birth year. Andy Murray was that same year where Scho was. Obviously Monfils, Victor Troicki, and a handful of other, Jeremy Charity.

Alvin Owusu (18:29.388)
Yeah, yeah, that's your,

Torrey Hawkins (18:47.53)
and Matthew Moncourt, a other guys who unfortunately passed away. So many other good ones. Anna Vonovich and Sharp Air. And there was another two others that were pretty good. Oh, you remember this one here, Michaela Krejcik, the niece or whatever of Richard. A others, that was that era. That was that era in 03, 04 came out. So I watched her a good bit, juniors, pro. And so she literally got to that level at the pros when, you and

Alvin Owusu (19:01.02)
yeah!

Torrey Hawkins (19:16.394)
and hit her stride during the time when I was at the open almost every year. So I saw her literally come of age, you know, from junior to pro player during that time, early 2000s to, well, 2005? When did she win?

Alvin Owusu (19:30.668)
Uh, she won... What year did she win that? Let me get...

Torrey Hawkins (19:33.545)
Was it earlier? Was it old? It had to be in between like, oh, how about say maybe 06, 07? Oh wait, there you go. Because she was in the juniors, as said, in 03. mean, so she came out early in 03. It didn't play the 04 year. So that would explain the two or three years to get up to that level. Good pick. Like you said, she just happened to have her overton window of one in the world and a slam.

Alvin Owusu (19:40.3)
Well, she got the number one ranking in 08, so probably right around there. French Open 2008, she won that one. Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (20:03.626)
you know, and hey, how long? A week? A week or 10 or 100, right?

Alvin Owusu (20:05.547)
But no, small correction on my part, it was 12 weeks. She had 12 weeks in number one. So we got, that's three months. That's not bad, that's not bad.

Torrey Hawkins (20:10.089)
12 weeks, even better, even better. 100%, 100%. My number 23 did reach number one in the world. Another two time Grand Slam champ. She was number one in the world back in 2006. She was the tournament director of this past year's French Open, Miss Amelie Marismo. Number 23.

Alvin Owusu (20:20.073)
Yep.

huh.

Alvin Owusu (20:30.475)
Hey now, Miss Amelie Maresmo. Okay, okay. Amelie Maresmo, I like that pic. I like it so much, I've got her higher a little further down the road, but I'll let you wax poetic on Miss Maresmo for minute here.

Torrey Hawkins (20:50.698)
There was a time, and I won't speak to her fellow countrymen who I have quite a bit higher, but there was a time during this time, right, where I felt like the French and the Belgians were coming out with, and the Serbs were just, they had this, it was almost like which version of the top player is better? You had the French had these two one-handers that were coming out playing ball.

I felt like the, know, on Kleister's side, it was just athletic, open stance backhand, almost doing the splits on backhand passing shots and just covering the court, hitting the ball big and big serve. You had the serves with Anna and Jelena from back in the day were just, they were just as athletic and as hardworking. And then their quote unquote, you know, Serbian brother,

Alvin Owusu (21:28.65)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (21:49.575)
Novak, who you knew was a good player, didn't know how good he was gonna be at that time, were all kinda coming on the scene around the same time. Amelie stole a couple of Grand Slams to me and during that timeframe, and for a woman to have a one-hander in general is a beautiful thing to I'm a huge one-hander fan, of course myself, but she did it with a pretty solid group of competition album. You're talking about the Davenports were still playing. We're talking about...

Venus is still one of the top players in the world. You're talking about her sister Serena is starting to take hold and had already won a few slams up at this point in time. Tennis was starting, her fellow countrywoman was starting to put the lockdown on the French. So to win a slam then was, it was a suffocating group at the top. And for her to sneak out a couple of slams during that timeframe and get number one in the world during that timeframe was nothing short of Herculean effort.

And so that's why I felt like she needed to, I think it's almost not, you almost can't appreciate what she did without understanding the context. She did win two, she won two in one of the hardest eras. It'd be similar to saying Dominic team won two or three during Fed Novak, he won his earlier before, you know, wouldn't say before COVID, but you know, five years earlier. It'd be similar to say if, you know, like when Stan won his two or three during the

Alvin Owusu (22:51.251)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (23:12.614)
fed Nadal Novak era. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about that level of competition. So you weren't gifted a good draw. Nobody pulled out, got hurt, and gave you or gave you a free pass. You had to go through two people who could have won the tournament to get to the title.

Alvin Owusu (23:13.887)
Yep, yep, yep.

Alvin Owusu (23:27.051)
Thank you.

Yeah, and she had a bit of a range there, so hits the scene, 99, finals the Australian Open, and then doesn't get to the meat and potatoes of a slam again until the semi-final Wimbledon in 2002, and then backed it up with another semi-final at the US Open. Fast forward a little bit further, yeah, finally gets over the hump, 06, wins Australian Open, wins Wimbledon, beats Justine Innen in the finals of both of those.

Torrey Hawkins (23:46.343)
Yep. And 0506, 06 I think.

Torrey Hawkins (23:56.581)
No. No.

Alvin Owusu (23:58.621)
in her previous final she lost to Martina Hengis. yeah, with just those names, I mean, spoiler, they're gonna be on the list too, right? Besides the one-handed backhand and besides being the French Open tournament director, was tough as nails. Like tough as nails, all court game, not the, I wouldn't say the best volley in the world, but she would come in with some real astuteness and use that

Torrey Hawkins (24:07.845)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (24:28.107)
Dunlop 300G, I think it was. Yeah, that was a tough racket to play with. What was I doing with that thing? But yeah, I've got her a little bit higher on my list. Yeah, well, don't worry about where I have her. I've got her little bit higher.

Torrey Hawkins (24:29.947)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:42.663)
I like it, I like it. The fact that you got her on, I'm with you. I feel like I'm in good stead to have her where I have her and you're putting pressure on my 20 through 10, you know what I mean, which is good. But I got you, go ahead, well who you got?

Alvin Owusu (24:59.467)
All right, at 23, one of my fondest memories of this player was when we were working together at Windward way back when during her magical run in 2010 to capture her first Wimbledon championship. Give me Petra Kvinova at number 23. I got a lot of, you know, this is where I get into the space of like, I value?

Torrey Hawkins (25:08.487)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (25:17.735)
Petra! Petra! Okay, okay.

Alvin Owusu (25:29.163)
getting to number one or do I value Grand Slams one? You pick up two Grand Slams, final another, you got me. And I'm a sucker for lefty, this could be a little bit of bias. I just love, well yeah, when Petra was rolling, I so enjoyed watching her play tennis. she peaked kind of from, sorry that Wimbledon was 2011 to 2010. But like from 2010.

Torrey Hawkins (25:37.575)
to.

No.

None wrong with that.

Alvin Owusu (25:57.099)
to 2014 was kind of like the bulk of her work done there. Yeah, and she would kind of fade in and out, then finaled another one in 2019, I'll show you it open, but for those four five years, she was right there. She was right there at the top of the game, and I gave her the nod for picking up two slams, and you didn't want to see her at SWU 19 when it hadn't rained. Yeah, she was like the male version of Richard Krychek.

Torrey Hawkins (25:58.695)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (26:21.766)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (26:26.15)
Yeah, yeah. I would say going, but yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you and that's all another talk show. We won't skip over to that yet because I'm tipping my hand. I had her to your point. I had her a bit higher, but she may be in the next episode. not, but I love Petra, loved her game. You know I love about Petra? As a coach, I think we always knew, know, Petra's backhand wasn't as solid as most.

Alvin Owusu (26:27.358)
but left-handed.

Alvin Owusu (26:34.236)
Eheh, eheh.

Alvin Owusu (26:43.567)
Okay, okay

Torrey Hawkins (26:56.496)
but that forum was all day. And the serve and this, the cannons she would hit. And I remember watching a story about her. Her dad had worked with her for a long time. And I learned something about that.

Alvin Owusu (26:57.962)
It's a howitzer.

Torrey Hawkins (27:13.446)
Let's not constantly work on a weakness. Let's make the weapon just be great. And just hide the weakness as best you can and go do your best. And she did that in spades, She did that all the way to, I gotta think she didn't meet one in the world. think she was, I think she was little shy of it. But for her to be at the top of the game between the 2011, 2014, I mean, Alvin, she pretty much,

Alvin Owusu (27:31.338)
Two, two, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (27:43.077)
She was a threat, not just with her two slams, but was also a threat on any other given surface if she was playing well. And isn't that really all you can do with given game? You're not, these people aren't bred. They're not spawned. These people are humans that say, know, I can play a little tennis. And not much self-harm can take it. And then they get to this level and then a couple of guys,

Alvin Owusu (28:00.287)
You

Torrey Hawkins (28:12.836)
in Atlanta are as you say, waxing poetical on them looking back at their body of work. And to be honest, I'm just in awe at how many more players have I worked with that I had just continued to focus on the strength and not the weakness, how much better they may have been while, and think that's something that we as coaches struggle with. We continue to see that weakness arguably be.

I saw slash a main source of contention. You gotta fix it. You losing matches. But even the Pete Sampras backhand wasn't phenomenal. He maximized what he did well. And that's all I wanna say to it. So I love Petra's game. As I said, I got a little higher. I think it's great.

Alvin Owusu (28:50.163)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (29:01.382)
To your point though, think it is important that, like not only are we, we're talking about Petra and Pete also had a weapon, a true, two true weapons, right? If you've got two Plan A's or an AA2 and A1, then maybe you can afford to not worry so much about the weakness.

Torrey Hawkins (29:12.407)
who? I would say, thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (29:25.061)
I would say I'm going to revise my statement three. Pete had served forehand on four another run and volleys and Petra had served forehand and was lefty and six foot tall. I mean, you can't, you can't dismiss that part of it. So to your point, again, we're not talking about a hudlow, you know, a local L6 over here in Atlanta. What I'm talking about is, is world-class athlete just saying, and again,

Alvin Owusu (29:32.68)
Valis. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (29:45.502)
Hahaha!

Torrey Hawkins (29:54.276)
one of my favorites. And I just always felt like her poise out there, she was always talking about how nervous she was. I'm like, Petra, you give me confidence because you never look nervous. You're like never nervous Purvis Ellison out there. You never look like it. And you just always handled the moment with such grace. And when she won, was like, you can almost see her kind of like managing things on her own time. she was just a joy to watch. So if that.

Alvin Owusu (30:15.764)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (30:19.418)
And we're both smiling because I think when you think of Petra Kvinova, it just brings a smile to your face. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (30:22.301)
my God. It does. It does. No controversy, no drama. Always get the other player the benefit of the doubt. Did her best. You never hurt her in some shade and some shenanigans. Just a class act. mean, just absolutely just one. And the fierce competitor that you know would drill 120 mile out wide on you and then follow up with a slice to the tee. Like, yep. That's what I do. And if you were lucky to get the serve back,

with blister at 92 mile an hour. You might be part Czech. I think you're part Gdynia and part Czech. That's what I'm thinking. Well, I'm gonna go a different country on you this time out. Number 22, another player that didn't quite reach number one, but boy, she came in a tough time. Leena.

Alvin Owusu (30:53.512)
Yep, yep. I need to get a check flag. Just put it right put it right here. I feel like all my favorite players all my favorite All my favorite players are check Jeez geez all right. Where are we here? All right number 22 what you got?

Alvin Owusu (31:18.834)
OK. OK. OK. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (31:20.132)
Lena 20 I think her time frame was she hit her between 2010 2014 give or take she was right there another two time slam champion another rough area I mean that 2010 2014 with with Petra and others in that same time frame so to win two in that time frame buddy you had to be doing some tough sledding

Alvin Owusu (31:41.576)
I agree, I agree. And she's, I've got her just a little bit, a little bit above, but I'm with you on Lena. Like when she took the, she kind of hit the seed big time back in a 2009 quarterfinal US Open and then falls out of the semifinal, the very next slam in Australian Open and then takes off, right? The very next year, finals Australian, wins French. Two years later, finals Australian again and then 2014 finishes up by winning the Australian. So.

which is technically, their home slam, right? That's the Asian, yeah, the slam of the Southeast Pacific, South Pacific, Southeast, some of that, yeah, official name, official name. But yeah, I got No Beef with Li Na. And again, that's that space and time where like the players who were, there was a weird, like in that same space, like.

Torrey Hawkins (32:13.517)
Yep, yep, the Asian Slam.

Torrey Hawkins (32:19.127)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:36.359)
Francesca Scyffoni also won a Grand Slam and Vera Zavonareva also got to two finals. Sam Stoser picked up a Grand Slam in that space. This is like, what you're gonna start to see here is a lot of the impact, the effects of Serena having other stuff to do. Between a career that spanned essentially for 20 years from 2000 to 2020. Yeah, she sometimes would just take a year off and go model or do.

Torrey Hawkins (32:38.051)
Yeah, I want it. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (32:43.437)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (32:56.547)
99 basically 2019.

Alvin Owusu (33:05.289)
clothing or just like I don't I'm I got other stuff to do and this is what would happen.

Torrey Hawkins (33:07.983)
yeah, right.

Right, nope, you're right.

Alvin Owusu (33:13.449)
weird things like this. All right, this is where I get a little spicy. This is where I get spicy. Not spicy, but I took the, retired today, because it's over. 2022, I mean, my number 22, Coco Golf.

Torrey Hawkins (33:18.989)
How spicy, how spicy are you?

Torrey Hawkins (33:26.701)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (33:33.015)
Wow. Wow. You went, wow.

Alvin Owusu (33:34.665)
Yeah, it feels it it does it feel low? Does it feel lower? Does it feel?

Torrey Hawkins (33:39.595)
No, no, it doesn't feel low. It feels like, I mean, she's one too. mean, so, you know what I mean? So, and has not been number one yet. So I think it's a well-deserved, obviously there's room to move her, right? But I think the piece that, it's not low and full, full transparency here. I have her in my next set, so I don't have her.

Alvin Owusu (33:44.531)
She's won two, found another, and has been as high as two in the world.

Alvin Owusu (33:54.749)
Sure, sure.

Alvin Owusu (34:08.039)
Okay, okay.

Torrey Hawkins (34:08.587)
so so much higher but I think that I think because of her youth and age I put her up a bit higher against all the subs subjective but to your point she fits in this group for sure with her body of work I am simply giving her the benefit of the doubt on age and how much better she may yet get but I'm baking in potential not necessarily current body work your point to your disclaimer

Alvin Owusu (34:18.345)
Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (34:37.973)
if she retired today.

Alvin Owusu (34:39.133)
I think it's more of a test, I look at it as a testament to even though she is so young, look at all that she's already accomplished that I already consider her to be, yeah, can already consider her to be one of the best 25 players in last 25 years and she's only five, six years in earnest into her career. Like she's not even near her peak yet. Yeah, so that's how much I believe in the Cocoa Golf Party.

Torrey Hawkins (34:44.236)
Right. Right, by now she's already in that league. Right, and this can be revisited, can it?

Torrey Hawkins (34:59.872)
Right, 100%.

Alvin Owusu (35:08.105)
that I'm willing to put her in this conversation with the vast majority of her career ahead of her.

Torrey Hawkins (35:12.322)
with you. That's a great comment. It is going to set up a strong, you better have 21, better come with it because you got cocoa at 22. 21 better have some sauce.

Alvin Owusu (35:26.793)
Oh, I've got some nuance to my game here, but I'm gonna... But let's finish up this one with number 21, what you got.

Torrey Hawkins (35:30.37)
I know you do. All right.

Torrey Hawkins (35:40.066)
also a two-time Grand Slam champ, but also had reached number one. I'm going with the player that has had some controversy, some unfortunate controversy. I'm going with the player who overachieved as far as I'm concerned, and between the years of 2016 and 2019 had tennis on lockdown for her small stature. And I felt like Simona Halep is one of the, it was,

If I took mine in chunks of fives and I had to almost re-rank them with what they were and I felt like with all the players and there were some great ones, I had to give the nod to Simona for her body of work, for all she did and how late she did it. Of my fives, only her and Amelie had been ranked number one in that timeframe. I think she had been ranked on one a little longer and she had been in that space a little bit.

Alvin Owusu (36:14.089)
Hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (36:39.554)
more longer and for her to have the same number of grand slam wins. I felt like she got absolutely decimated by the by the band. I was a little bit upset at the situation with the double standard with the annex center. I was vocal about that even on this podcast felt like that was a you know how how are you how do you have that much disparity between the two rulings and the lady was one of the current players at the time and to give her a three year ban to me was just out of the question.

and you give them a player a three month ban, you know, and then in the scheme of things, it just didn't seem right. Long story, Simona Halleb, two time Grand Slam champ and number one in the world between 2016 and 20, sorry, 2018, 2019. And I feel very confident in her being the capstone for this current edition of 21 to 25. What say you? It's awesome.

Alvin Owusu (37:33.833)
Okay, what say I? Well, we'll hear from Ms. Halep again because not only do I feel the same way you feel about her, I feel little bit stronger about her, so I've got her a little bit higher on this list. So I'll leave that where it is. And my number 21, whom you've already mentioned, we've talked about is Lena. Again, I don't think you can take away from how good her high-end tennis was compared to the players that she was competing against in a very

Torrey Hawkins (37:45.697)
No.

Alvin Owusu (38:03.656)
in a very crowded field up top. She was able to pick off a couple slams there. That means a lot to me and I feel that that's a good spot personally for me to have Li Na at 21. So in review, if you're scoring at home, TH went 25, Mary Pierce, 24, Svetlana Kutsnetseva, number 23, Amelie Muresmo, 22, Li Na, 21, Samona Alep. I had 25, Daneera Safina, 24.

Torrey Hawkins (38:05.697)
100%. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (38:25.057)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (38:32.782)
Anna Ivanovich, which is almost kind of funny now. Number 23, Petra Kvitova. No, it's only funny because you put Mary Pierce in there and that guy throws everything off. It throws everything off. It makes everything weird. 23, Petra Kvitova. Number 22, Koko Goff. Number 20, the not yet complete Koko Goff. And number 21 for me is Li Na. I think we're gonna have a lot of fun with this.

Torrey Hawkins (38:36.128)
You

Alvin Owusu (39:03.176)
Do you have any that you wish you had changed? Or maybe, who were your first three out? Let's put it that way.

Torrey Hawkins (39:13.47)
My 26, seven, eight, so to speak. That even kept changing. Denara was in that group.

Alvin Owusu (39:14.92)
26, seven and eight, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (39:28.288)
I kept wanting to go deeper into the 90s because of the work. Aracha Sanchez, I wanted to include her so bad. So bad. All the one and done's. I wanted to know all of them because I felt like when you look at some of the work, all the rest of it done. I literally had to make myself, I'm like, I just can't make a case for Aracha Sanchez Vacario. I just can't, but I want to because.

Alvin Owusu (39:36.424)
You just want to ignore all the one and done's in the 2000s

Torrey Hawkins (39:57.267)
because she was that good. And I felt like at some point I had to stay at least somewhat true to what you had asked. so she was a tough one for me to, I grapple with that one strong. There is one player that I felt that, and I will leave it as a cliffhanger because she's my number 20 that I almost cut. And she was my.

28 give or take and I had to go back and review it and say God I just can't she had a solid body of work and if I had to just Include her for for the link to your point length of time at number one I just and I so she was she was a very controversial one for me that I'm gonna bring up next week So but but I say that to say yo, God. Yeah, of course if I did it again today

Alvin Owusu (40:46.536)
Okay, you don't have to tip it.

Torrey Hawkins (40:52.735)
I'd probably re-rank it and re-sort it and I'd probably, know, one or two of them might be gone. Or if I had to stay, you know, draconian to 2000, I would probably lose five of my players. You know what I mean? So, and that's just what it is. So, you know, I feel like it's a great exercise. I think it's a great thing. And hopefully those watching or listening at home or in the cars or on the way to wherever they're going can appreciate how difficult.

Alvin Owusu (41:05.616)
I hear you. Yep. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (41:21.471)
I challenge those at home to bring up a few that we may have missed and to call out a body of work. Clearly we're going to keep going and so you got to wait until we finish to kind of see where we replace everybody. But I challenge them to follow along at home. What would you have ranked 21 through 25 and why? And because I think once you start doing it, you realize it's a whole lot harder than you think it is.

Alvin Owusu (41:50.857)
It's very difficult. Yeah, also implore you all to, yeah, get your pens and paper out. Go ahead and you try it. It's difficult, one, two, it's a lot of fun and it really forces you to think about how you value excellence in tennis, which again, like you mentioned in the outset, TH, we're all blessed to just be able to watch these ladies and gentlemen perform.

Torrey Hawkins (42:03.464)
Have fun.

Alvin Owusu (42:18.568)
in the sport that we all care about so much. So, but for myself though, my first three out, I guess first three out, holding to my 2000 marker, Karolina Plitskova would have been my 28. My 27 would have been Yelena Yankovitch.

Torrey Hawkins (42:31.728)
Right, right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (42:36.062)
Mmm.

Torrey Hawkins (42:41.022)
Right?

Torrey Hawkins (42:46.652)
Okay, Yolanda, yeah, I mentioned her before, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (42:48.424)
18 weeks at number one, that's tough. That's tough. That is tough. And my number...

Torrey Hawkins (42:51.08)
Solid. Solid. Yeah.

And you had her out and Anna in.

Alvin Owusu (43:01.123)
It's that damn grand slam. It's that grand slam. Like she got the grand slam and number one. Like I can't not have her in. I can't not have her in. Yeah, I mean if I had to flip flop her with, I I couldn't necessarily put, mean, Safina was twice as long at number one than Ana was, but Ana won the grand slam, yeah, flip flop him where you want him. 24, 25, whatever, whatever. And then Alana Rabakina.

Torrey Hawkins (43:09.502)
I'm with you. I'm with you.

Torrey Hawkins (43:25.054)
Right, right, right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (43:30.97)
Okay, okay, wow, wow, current.

Alvin Owusu (43:33.848)
Yeah, and the thing that for her, it's really just not being able to post another deep run in a slam. Yeah, yeah. And she's still like, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (43:41.214)
in between, sure. And she's still playing. her book's not finished written yet. What's so difficult about this exercise when you start to include the current players is that they are all in placeholders because that could all change, right? And so many of them, and especially Coco, I feel, could continue to move the needle and change everything that they've got going.

There was another player that I didn't have, but when I watched, when I looked back to that timeframe, because I'm starting to think about matches and people, there was a player Alvin, and you'll remember this one, because she was on that same era, Anastasia Moschina, who I thought was going to win two more at least, lethal off the ground, but backhand was absolutely a certified weapon, had to get it checked at TSA. I mean, you couldn't bore the playing with it. was, she had her serve was,

Alvin Owusu (44:24.242)
Mesquina, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (44:39.675)
know, quietly okay, the returns were ridiculous. I remember thinking, man, this girl could win two or three more for real, right? And then you just didn't see her again. And there are so many players like that that I've watched. Bianca, you know, Sloan, you know, so many of them that you thought, they're just getting going, that they could win. I don't know about Flavia, but to your point.

Alvin Owusu (45:01.928)
Flavia Panetta. Well, maybe a little less than that.

Torrey Hawkins (45:06.444)
these type of players, felt like there were so many of them that you thought were gonna win a few more and then they didn't. And you're like, yeah. So that's why I leaned closer to the two timers. And again, of course, again, I got one or two big caveats in my next list, but you can appreciate, you can appreciate this as a hard exercise because to be objective, right? It's a hard thing to do, especially when

a lot of them were all competing during the same time. And that to me might be the only slap I have against players of yesteryear, 70s and 80s. The field was very diff, was very more open and it didn't mean, it didn't make the top any less good. It just made them be a little more on their own island. And I felt like, you know, the, from 2000 on, 2005 was rough, 2006 to 2010, a lot.

You know, there were four people competing every year for it. 2010, 2011 to 2015, there were six to eight players that could legitimately win a slam. And just take it from you, depending on the surface and healthy. 2016 to 2020, right before COVID, was rough, Alvin. mean, that was probably to me the best era in women's tennis. And then we had COVID, which kind of came through and decimated things. And then,

Alvin Owusu (46:11.527)
Hmm?

Alvin Owusu (46:21.787)
That was fun. That was fun.

That was fun, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (46:30.926)
I feel like we've actually picked up quicker than you think, Alvin, with having our current list of people. Eka kind of came in and vacuumed. know, Coco was just getting started. Arena was trying to get a hold of Arena and kind of get a mind right. And yet we still have had some great tennis. And now the Rivalrys are picking, and this year alone, to have four different Grand Slam champs this year alone is just phenomenal. And it looks to make next year even better because you know there's

Alvin Owusu (46:53.115)
I love it.

Torrey Hawkins (47:00.028)
four or five other former Grand Slam champs still lurking and should they be healthy, let alone three or four more top 10s, should they get healthy. I mean, you could have 12 legitimate players that could vie for Grand Slam going into a quarter. That's what makes the round of 16 rough, so let alone the semis. So anyway, I agree with you 100%. It's a great exercise and you make sure to appreciate all the tennis you've seen when you go through it all.

Alvin Owusu (47:17.295)
Yep. Exactly.

Alvin Owusu (47:27.912)
Yeah. Um, all right, let's put a pin in it there. Uh, we'll come back. We'll come back next week and we will reveal reveal our, uh, our, our 20 through 16. We'll keep clipping through this list. Um, I'm Alvin again, that's Tori, uh, like subscribe, all that stuff. Rate us, tell your friends about us. Uh, best three, we are out.

Torrey Hawkins (47:34.576)
Yeah, yeah, I read it.