Ep. 69: WTA Top 25 of the 2000s Era: 15–11

Alvin Owusu (00:00.598)
Welcome to another episode of the best three podcast. I am Alvin that is Tory and you are, if you're here with us, I assume this is the third installment of WTA top 25 players in the last 25 years. We've, we've been over the last few weeks. well, as you can see, I'm wearing the same shirt, so it's not the last few weeks for me in real time. It's the, the same day. but for you hearing this, it has been the last few weeks and we're building towards the best.

Torrey Hawkins (00:05.556)
What what up?

Alvin Owusu (00:30.158)
player of the last 25 years on the women's side. I will, yeah, I'll go ahead and read through them again for the people in case you're just catching up with us. Tori and I have been going back and forth, trading lists. My top 25 so far, number 25 I had De'Nira Safina, number 24 Ana Ivanovich, number 23 Petra Kvitova, number 22 Koko Goff, number 21 Lee Na, number 20 Svetlana Kuznetseva.

Number 19, Barbara Kruchikova. Number 18, Garbina Mugarruta. Number 17, Amelie Moresmo. And number 16, Caroline Wozniacki on Tories list. Number 25, Mary Pierce. Number 24, Svetlana Kuznetsova. Number 23, Amelie Moresmo. Number 22, Li Na. Number 21, Simona Halep. Number 20, Petra Kavitova. Number 19, Victoria Azarenka. Number 18, Caroline Wozniacki.

Number 17, Garbina Muguruta and number 16, Coco Golf. TH, how you doing?

Torrey Hawkins (01:33.45)
Yep. I'm good, man. I'm good. I'm good. I'm looking at my list as you're writing it down. And I'm like, yep, yep, that's what I had. And I could have very easily, in my cut and paste on my little spreadsheet, I could have very easily put one here, one there. And again, my error would be in not putting some further up. But I would need more space. That's all. So it's, you know. Let me just say this, Alvin.

Alvin Owusu (01:57.526)
Understood

Alvin Owusu (02:01.794)
That's it.

Torrey Hawkins (02:01.884)
I did this for the men too and the men is quintessentially harder because the current, the last goats that went through plowed up so much land. They were like an EF-10 tornado ripping up everything recognizable of the ATP tour. And as such, there is such a disparity between

24, 22, 20, that the former best of all time at 14, which is unheard of, seems paltry. And then you start getting into the likes of the nines and the eights and the sevens and the lean sixes of Johnny Mac. And you're like, what are we even talking about right now? Why are we even talking? We don't even need to talk about this.

Alvin Owusu (02:54.574)
Why are we talking about this?

Torrey Hawkins (03:00.97)
But I say it to say, the women, fortunately, we don't have Chris Evert and Martina in this mix. I have done my fair share of incorporating all players still playing in 2000, and that's my story and I'm sticking with it. But with that said, it's made the women a tiny bit easier, but Alvin, this is just a...

Alvin Owusu (03:17.006)
How dare you.

Torrey Hawkins (03:30.217)
Herculean feat to be able to put these people in the mix. And I always hate it because you take out the context, you take out the story, you take out how the world, how the scene was, who was playing. But again, we're doing our best. We're doing our best to put some sort of level of appreciation. Let me say that first. And then number two, of ranking the appreciation of the greats. By no means is there any level of

of scrutiny and any level of, there's nothing but love and nothing but appreciation for what we've been honored to see and experience. So let me just say that and shout out to all the players. If you happen to catch a bit of this and you hear your name, what have you tagged or listed in some of this, know that we as the Tennis Faithful have been blessed to have your hard work, grace our eyes, our tickets.

our, you know, our grounds passes, you know, our TVs and such over the last 25 plus years because it, you have made life a little bit more enjoyable in the process by, your hard work and being able to, you know, to, show us your greatness for whatever length of time you're able to do it.

Alvin Owusu (04:28.898)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (04:48.962)
Yeah. and this is in a situation where we're coming up with a 20, 25 woman draw and we open up the, open up the balls and see who's going to win or anything. This is a, you know, as we have a chance to look back. What it's for me personally, when I thought about this, I was like, we were, we're seeing some greatness right now between the Sabalinkas and the, and the Suyatex, but I don't want us to necessarily forget.

Torrey Hawkins (04:59.133)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (05:19.192)
how good some of these other players actually were and then put it in context so that we can talk about the Sabalinkas in the, in Sviatek's and understand that, Hey, we don't talk about Garbina Mugarruth much anymore, but she was, she was a real one too. And then also appreciate how special Arena Sabalinka and Ego Sviatek are. And obviously we feel they are because we haven't talked about them yet and we're, we're getting into the, we're getting into the meat and potatoes of this like.

Torrey Hawkins (05:38.333)
Right.

No, I don't.

Alvin Owusu (05:47.886)
I, when going through my process, I looked at these, you know, some qualitative, I started to say as quantitative as possible, but even started to weight some of these things a little bit differently. And there's a big step up here when we start getting into the 15, 14, 13s. It's like, okay, these are, now we're getting into it, into it big time. at 15, are we at 15? Yeah, 15. I'm gonna go first because we've already talked about our,

Torrey Hawkins (06:08.423)
Yeah. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (06:13.373)
15.

Alvin Owusu (06:16.429)
I've got Victoria Azarenka at 15. You had her a little lower at 19, but the words we shared about her in a previous episode still hold true here. What she was able to do against the top end of some of the women, best women in history, right? She was right there for the, she was right there for the taking one, two back to back to Australian Opens. You know, had a peak in that kind of 2010 to 2000.

13th space but then also tied on another semi-final at Grand Slam ten years later beat Sharapova in a final Beat Li Na in a final. These are ladies that we have talked about and we'll talk about after a little bit later on I believe she lost it probably lost to Serena in a couple of finals there Yep, back-to-back us opens in those same years 2012 and So yeah, that's Vika Azarenka for me at 15th

Torrey Hawkins (06:58.14)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (07:13.002)
And that's a really good spot for her, Alvin. As I told you, if there's anything that I look back on, when you look strictly at the records and the rankings, you know what I mean? I defaulted to my draconian set of rules, you know what I mean, that I was limiting myself to, but it doesn't speak to, I think the highest compliment I can give her is, as I said before, she is the Morat Safin of Women's Tennis Tour.

that could have easily won a few more, no one wanted to play. And the one player who, and I'll put singularity to this, the one player who, those who had more slams than her never wanted to play and never enjoyed playing and you endured or got through it. You were happy that they weren't on that day because had they been on, you'd have lost. And that's, so I, I a hundred percent agree with you. My, my number 15 and again, I, player still playing in 2000 Alvin, this young lady who has coached.

Led, Ville Jean Cup, Fed Cup as it was back in the day. Davenport. I had to put Lindsay in this mixed album and I'm going to give her as the elder stateswoman in the mix. A few other players have similar bodies of work in terms of total number of slams, but I'm giving her that because of age and maturity. However, she is by no means, if there could have been a tie on 17 through 20, oh sorry, 12 through

15, it would have been a tie because each of these women were phenomenal. The fact they all share three slams is something, but she was at a very pivotal point in American tennis, a very pivotal point in tennis in general. And literally her, some of her battles with, or the early Serena and Venus, the early days, in the early 2000s when the tour was really kind of coming into its own in our current big hitter mold.

She, it was, was phenomenal to watch. And so her, her three slams were only the tip of the iceberg as far as I'm concerned. But Leslie Davenport is, is my number 15.

Alvin Owusu (09:22.049)
I'm gonna, I love the inclusion of Lindsay Davenport in this list. I also included her in the list, but a little sneak peek, it's gonna be a few weeks before I have anything to say about Lindsay Davenport, because that's how much I have, that's how much I respect the body of work that Ms. Davenport had. Not just taking into account, I didn't even take into account what she did in the late 90s, just looking kind of like 99 to 2005.

Torrey Hawkins (09:31.643)
Mmm.

Alvin Owusu (09:51.662)
Yeah, so I got no problem with Lindsay being on this list in this era. I feel the same and then some, so we'll come back to Miss Davenport at another time. Number 14. All right, this is where it gets a little strange.

Torrey Hawkins (10:12.165)
Alright.

Alvin Owusu (10:14.775)
three-time Glare Sam champion Jennifer Capriotti.

Torrey Hawkins (10:17.157)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (10:19.073)
had had

Torrey Hawkins (10:21.091)
But before you go anywhere, before you take anything else, I had the same pick. So 13.

Alvin Owusu (10:22.569)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 13. All right, okay, then we, okay, this is what I'm talking about. So just to remind you guys, we did not talk about this ahead of time. The assignment was, TH is what we're gonna do. You bring your list, I'll bring my list, and we'll see where we end up. And we both felt the same way about Jennifer's short, but reign of terror of the tour.

Torrey Hawkins (10:30.459)
So, J Capri out.

Alvin Owusu (10:51.117)
Uh, 13 weeks at number one, I mean, 17 weeks at number one, uh, three grand slams won one grand slam final, uh, a little on the younger side of my tennis memory. Um, but as I'm gonna let you speak about Ms. Capriotti.

Torrey Hawkins (11:08.559)
Yeah. Miss Capriotti is the unfortunate example for every parent who thinks their kid is going to be special. You need to take a step back and look at Jennifer Capriotti's body of work as a junior.

Alvin Owusu (11:20.045)
Mmm.

Torrey Hawkins (11:29.1)
Alvin, I ran the girls 12 nationals for seven years. There was a picture that a buddy of mine showed me from the 14s and that a young Jennifer Capriotti was playing in the 14s and that is at 10. A buddy of mine also showed me a picture of the orange bowl she played at at the ripe old age, orange bowl Alvin, 18U, ITF.

at the ripe old age of 12.

Think about that. And did I forget to mention that she reached round of 16 at the ripe old age of Wimbledon at the ripe old age of 14. So you're talking about, and it might have been quarters. I have to go back and look at it. I stand to say, look at those three benchmarks. 10, playing the 14 you natties. 12, and I wanted to say she did well enough

Alvin Owusu (12:19.414)
So.

Torrey Hawkins (12:31.447)
if not won it at that point in time at at Orange Bowl at this at this level the highest level ITF and now you're talking about Wimbledon I'm pretty sure it's quarters she gets to the court with the semis don't tell me it's the semis

Alvin Owusu (12:45.27)
So let's go back even before that. Her first Grand Slam that she appeared in was in 1990 when she was 14 and she semi-finaled the French Open. She sent me the French. She sent me the... First Grand Slam. So fourth round Wimbledon and then fourth round US Open. And then the next year at age...

Torrey Hawkins (12:55.204)
Semi-final of the French, that's what it was. Semi-final of the French. Semi-final of the French at 14 flipping years old. That's what it was. What is she, was she quarters of Wimby?

Fourth one, I thought it was round 16. I thought it was round 16. I forgot about the same. I thought it was the year after she had French open, but you're right. Quarter, yeah, same as the women.

Alvin Owusu (13:16.064)
Yeah, and then the next year, 15, she goes fourth round, no, she didn't play us, fourth round, Open, semi-final Wimbledon, semi-final US Open.

Torrey Hawkins (13:23.91)
Yeah. That's what it was. I knew the 15 was that year. But I say that to tell you, Alvin, you cannot, you cannot talk about her two to three year reign of terror without explaining her unreal hyperspace from the juniors into the pro tour. The movie, King Richard spoke a little bit to that about how Capriotti, it kind of indirectly spoke to her a little bit about how good she was.

I know Venus and Serena had their paths kind of crossed at some point down there at Rick Macy's, but I say it to say, phenomenal. And perhaps too much success much too soon. And we all know about her little sabbatical, we're gonna call it, and then the best of terms here for what she went through. And the fact that she came back to tennis, reached peak form. It was never about hitting a tennis ball.

It was always about maybe some other things. She was going through some expectations and some of part and lost a lot of her childhood as a result, Alvin. I think it's the point we want to get to. So I just say it to say you have to appreciate her not only for what she achieved, but what she went through early. She could have done a lot of this much earlier, Alvin. That's the track she was on and then went back to have a little bit of a have a little bit of a life, you know, and I'm not going to speak to.

Alvin Owusu (14:30.092)
Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (14:49.505)
some of her walk about a little bit. know, I'm not here to condone or to, we won't keep a tennis, but bottom line, it's very understandable the toll that the early success took is all I would say.

Alvin Owusu (14:55.2)
Keep it tennis. We'll keep it tennis.

Alvin Owusu (15:05.548)
Yeah, and I mean, we're talking about, okay, so this level set here, right? Age 14, her first gram slam of parents, she's semifinals. Over the course of the next four years, right, three semis, six quarterfinals, right? From 1990 to 1993. And that's not what we're talking about. So from 94 to, her walkabout was from 94 to 99. Like she was in the lurch, right?

Torrey Hawkins (15:27.82)
Right?

Torrey Hawkins (15:33.144)
Right? Right.

Alvin Owusu (15:35.712)
a lot of things were happening in her life and a lot of that had to do with becoming an adult a little bit too soon, right? So two years completely off tour, yeah. Yeah, all the...

Torrey Hawkins (15:39.437)
Yeah, yeah. Money, fame, independence, you name it. And childhood loss, let's not forget that part of it for a girl that was that high. You don't get that high in tennis. You don't get that far in tennis and not appreciate how something else was at a loss. You overreach in one.

Alvin Owusu (15:56.811)
hahahahah

Alvin Owusu (16:02.922)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (16:07.53)
you by definition missed something else. You put all those eggs in that basket and there's no eggs in that basket.

Alvin Owusu (16:10.486)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (16:14.188)
Yeah, but what we're speaking to and why we're including her, well, we both included her poetically in the same spot from when she did kind of find tennis again, year 2000, she semi-finals Australian Open, and then the following year, she wins the Australian Open. She wins the French Open, semi-finals of Wimbledon, semi-finals US Open. 2002, wins Australian Open, semi-finals of French Open. And then picked up.

Torrey Hawkins (16:38.648)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (16:41.461)
on three more semi-finals over the next two years. That's why she's on this list, right? You talk about three Grand Slam wins.

Torrey Hawkins (16:47.128)
When I was doing all of the extra work, I was like, I got down to her and I was like, she should be much higher. But I just couldn't, I couldn't, my brain wouldn't let me get past the three, but at the same time, she should have been a bit higher. And again, just because I was already going into the 90s, I felt bad. said, you know what, let me, let me sneak, you know, Jennifer Capriotti at this point, just because of the relevance. that's not a sneak. My point being, she could have easily.

Alvin Owusu (17:11.788)
It's not a sneak. It's not a sneak. It's not a sneak. That all happened.

Torrey Hawkins (17:16.905)
she could have easily been closer to top five if you looked at her body of work, if you include both and then and then.

Alvin Owusu (17:23.988)
Yeah, yeah, I think it becomes a little more cut and dry because the high end, like those three Grand Slam wins all did happen post 2000. And so that, right, yay.

Torrey Hawkins (17:28.417)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:36.46)
For the purposes of this list, if we were doing career results and you included a numerical value of finals, semi and quarters, buddy, you would easily be top 10, easy.

Alvin Owusu (17:45.485)
semi finals, a lot of semis. Yeah. I, I, I wonder, I wonder if I would actually move her because like, I mean, I feel really, really good about the rest of the list. Um, I do as well. I, do. and right.

Torrey Hawkins (17:54.262)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:59.671)
The rest of the list is packed. They have no shortage of talent. I'm just saying, but you don't really appreciate how long her career was, is all I was getting at.

Alvin Owusu (18:10.348)
Right, right, that part, yeah, longevity does matter. So let's move up number 13, and I already, my number 13 is Simone Halep, and we've already talked about her in a previous episode. I think for me, her ability to do it for so long, like when we talk about, like yeah, she did win two Grand Slams, she did final three Grand Slams, and I think she finaled all three of them before she won her first, was number one in the world for 30 some odd weeks.

Torrey Hawkins (18:14.87)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (18:38.636)
Yeah, I mean, we've talked about her, I think in a previous episode, I'm just gonna go ahead and say, if you didn't listen to that one, go listen to it now. But yeah, I had Simona at 13, sorry, Jennifer 13? Yeah, Jennifer 14, Simona 13. Yep, who do you got 13?

Torrey Hawkins (18:50.743)
13.

Yeah, 13. 13.

Torrey Hawkins (18:58.217)
I visited the land of the lefties once again, Alvin. Germany's finest, Angelique Kerber, absolutely, was the, was the crawling forehand of her time. She was a lefty version of her fellow country woman, Steffi Graf, in a different era and was every bit of a marksman and

If anything, and I love Petra, she was in some ways a bit more mobile and a bit better backhand Petra with the same beat serve and the same strokes and could come forward when she wanted to. I loved Angelique's game and I felt like toward the end of her career, she really kind of put it all together. But she was again, also a three slams, also number one in the world between 2016 and 2018. And I felt like

She was another player that helped to kind of put some of the nails in Serena's coffin there toward the end after 20 years of phenomenal tennis. And I felt like she was one of those players that really helped to help you understand how good good was. And three grand slams is no small feat. And I think she had several years of quarters and semis up until that point in time. But Angelique Kerber out.

Alvin Owusu (20:19.403)
Yep. Um, and I'll just, I'll, uh, won't bury the lead. have, I have Angelique at number 12, um, for the same reason that you, the same reason you mentioned, like her peak was probably 2016 to 2018, um, where she picked up through grand slams. Two of them had, she beat Serena in the final and I'll, I'll can, I feel like I'm going to continue to say that like to beat Serena in the final of a grand slam and reach number one. Like that is. Yeah, that was no, that was no joke, Serena. Like that, that was, that was like.

Torrey Hawkins (20:43.232)
Right. During her, during her, her, her rape.

Alvin Owusu (20:49.163)
one of Serena's, think she had like probably three different peaks, but that was one of them. But to be right there with her, to push Serena, continually meet her in finals, I they met in like three or four Grand Slam finals, and she was able to pick up two of them. But again, like that long body of work, right? 2011 was her first semi-final appearance in a Grand Slam at the US Open. 2021 was her last. Like that's 10 years of four semi-finals.

one finalist, three grand slams in the bag. That makes a Hall of Fame career. Oh, yeah, easy inclusion for me here. And you and I had our, about the same space here. You at 13, me at 12.

Torrey Hawkins (21:22.773)
First time. First time. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (21:36.395)
Who do you, yeah, I got nothing else to speak on about Angelique Kerber. Who do you have at 12?

Torrey Hawkins (21:43.655)
Ashley Barty.

Alvin Owusu (21:46.955)
Huh.

Torrey Hawkins (21:48.477)
Ask Buddy.

Alvin Owusu (21:50.187)
Huh.

Torrey Hawkins (21:52.799)
She's the top of my three time slam champs. I felt like she could have won more. felt like, I'm not gonna say COVID hurt helped or whatever. I'm just gonna say I felt like she should have stayed. I would have loved for her to stayed. In a weird way, I look at her like I look at Monica Sellers. I wish she had stayed, you know what I mean? I was looking forward to her playing more tennis. I felt like she's the one player I look back at and say to myself.

How many more could you really have gotten if you went a little deeper in the game and just decided for, not for your sake, for my sake. If you were to continue to push a little harder into the annals of history a little bit, what you really could have put your mark on the end. I thought she did three and we're just getting started.

Alvin Owusu (22:30.795)
For us for us not about you Ashley. It's about us

Torrey Hawkins (22:49.141)
I really did. I felt like her game style when she was putting it all together, there didn't seem to be a player that had the answer to her matrix. And I think she left on top, you know, which was great for her and happy for her, much like the great Pete Sampras did. And she walked into the sunset carrying a grand slam trophy in her hands. And, you know, whether she went to, I don't know, went to... What else was she into?

Alvin Owusu (23:15.115)
She's a golfer.

Torrey Hawkins (23:16.501)
golf, but it was something else. was something else Australian. was like it wasn't rugby. was it was something else she was into that was that she played back but that she played at a high level as a junior. He was really big into wasn't cricket was it was something else. She was like really really good at back man. She just yeah, I almost feel like she wanted to go on something else. You know, I felt like it was like the first three champs for Jordan and he went to baseball. I'm gonna this now. You know, I've already shown you I can win championships in tennis and basketball. I'm gonna go over here.

Alvin Owusu (23:23.824)
It'll come to me.

Alvin Owusu (23:27.825)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (23:46.251)
Cricket, yeah, she played for professional cricket during her sojourn from tennis. I think I'm with you on Bardi. I've got her a little bit higher, so we'll hear about her in another episode. I can spill it now, just my thoughts on her. I think it's, we forget how old she was when she, not,

Torrey Hawkins (23:46.452)
I thought it was great.

Alvin Owusu (24:14.667)
old she was, but how long she had actually been on tour when she actually broke through, right? So, um, Ash Barty's reign of dominance was like 2019 to 2022, where she picked up three, um, three grand slam titles. And again, that's with, you know, 2022, she, she played the first one, won it and peaced out, right? And then she didn't play three of them in 2020. So, uh, COVID was a lot more difficult for those in Australia.

Torrey Hawkins (24:34.291)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (24:37.863)
But.

Alvin Owusu (24:43.403)
than other places, like they were stuck down there more or less. So for her to be able to come back from that, pick up another two Grand Slams before calling it a career for real this time, because she turned pro in 2011, right? And was not a player of note in the four years she was on tour before she left. So 2011 to 2014, you know, never got past the second round in a Grand Slam.

Torrey Hawkins (24:43.859)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (25:04.563)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (25:11.303)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (25:11.549)
I think that's important to keep in mind. It takes two years off.

Torrey Hawkins (25:14.355)
But wasn't a top five, top Grand Slam champ junior either because of her several other sports that she played. And I think that's important to understand that the tournaments, the travel, just the knowing who the players are takes a bit of toll on you. And the fact that she still was out there for that length of time and still yet achieved what she did to me. I'll look at an example of a current one of Amanda Nesamova.

Madam's the top junior all the way through. She won Junior Wimbledon. So to beat Rena in the semis and get to the finals of Wimbledon five years later, it wasn't as big of a, it wasn't the prize. You knew she could do it. Roger won Junior Wimbledon in 98. And then so when he wins Junior, when he was the real Wimbledon in 03, you're like, okay, I can see that, five years, okay. So I say that to not have done that. And it takes you that five, six years.

which is gonna take, right? And then you see her then continue to improve. I felt like she took that two or three years as the ITF would have taken. And then she used, and then to achieve, to me it's actually all the more impressive because of not having the solo tennis focused career that she, that most juniors take.

Alvin Owusu (26:34.986)
So I'm just gonna clear it up just a little bit though, because Ash was a pretty accomplished junior. She did win Junior Wimbledon. She did win it, but she makes it even 2011. that's a pretty good distance though between when she actually, so it's like what happened after that is more the.

Torrey Hawkins (26:44.499)
There you

11, 12, 12, 12.

Torrey Hawkins (26:55.795)
So 2016, what was, give me the five year litmus test that most players take to have that big result.

Alvin Owusu (27:05.588)
What do mean?

Torrey Hawkins (27:06.737)
In other words, what was her tournament result in 2016?

Alvin Owusu (27:10.25)
2016, that's when she was coming back. So she had already retired at that point. So it just kind of feels like maybe it was too much for her. Like, I don't need to, I haven't gone back and really dug through it, like the whys of, you know, why she actually left the tour. And this was probably before I was, what I was doing in life at that time. But yeah, that's a big, you you do well in 2011 and then.

Torrey Hawkins (27:13.331)
Ah, so she's got her...

Torrey Hawkins (27:18.598)
God.

Torrey Hawkins (27:32.134)
Yeah, good point.

Alvin Owusu (27:40.234)
no dice the first few years, right? It's first round after first round after first round exit and grand slams that just like maybe that feedback to a player is like maybe I wasn't that good. Maybe I couldn't get it done. Or I was just not doing it, approaching it correctly. Two year hiatus, goes to the cricket, comes back, gets the thing moving a little bit, a little more progress, a little more progress and then you get the pop in 2019 and then it's, know, then it's the Ash party we know but I think it's more of a testament to

Torrey Hawkins (27:44.55)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (27:48.914)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (28:08.298)
Not all paths are the same. and yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (28:11.171)
or yes, some past or circuitous, you know what I mean? And not straight line. That's well said, well said. I didn't realize she was that good of a junior. And so I'm glad you pointed that out. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (28:17.182)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (28:21.854)
Yeah, all right, let's keep popping here. Number 11, this is our last one for today. All right, number 11. Naomi Osaka.

Torrey Hawkins (28:28.21)
That's one. What you got?

I knew it. Full disclosure, she's my number 10. Why? Why Naomi here? I know you have your, if we were, if she retired today, I got that.

Alvin Owusu (28:39.837)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (28:44.35)
Yep, yep, I give her this on body of work already completed. Everything that happens for Naomi, obviously she had this fantastic semi-finals run at the US Open this year. Anything that happens to Naomi from here on out is icing on the proverbial cake. Her run, she spent 25 weeks at number one, four and in Grand Slam finals.

Torrey Hawkins (28:52.38)
Bye.

Torrey Hawkins (29:05.68)
bonus. Sure. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (29:15.018)
locked it down kind of, I'm gonna say post Serena, because that's a weird term, but from like 2018 to 2021, if there was a grand slam on hardcore to be played, was just taking it, just taking it. I think that, I will say post Serena, because I think that was kind of the, that was more or less the end of Serena, but the combination of power and speed, was like the child, the birth child of.

of Serena and like something we hadn't necessarily seen before outside of Serena. So the fact that I've said Serena four times when talking about Naomi kind of like justifies me putting her this like in this space on this list.

Torrey Hawkins (29:44.069)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (29:52.849)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (30:00.721)
100%. As I said, she's my number 10. So no need to revisit that either. My number 11 was one Kim Kleister. And I felt like was the, and the only reason why is I felt because of this past year, and I'll just speak to my number 10, I saw a Naomi that could return back to top form.

And Mike, if I had to do a tie break between her and Kim, Kim ain't playing anymore and Naomi still is. And by what I saw this past US Open, I think she may notch a few more results in her belt before it's all said and done. So that would then of course, in my draconian five versus four or what have you, there was a chance that she could overtake and break the tie between her and Kim. Kim ain't breaking the tie, we know that, but Naomi could. And let me just say this.

But the number one of Kim Kleister's, Miss Belgium herself was between 20, was it 05 and 11? I'm pretty sure she was number one off and on in those six, seven years and was just a phenomenal player to watch and a phenomenal player to just behold and really was just as gracious of a champion as you had, phenomenal game. Acrobatic, fun to watch, was just absolutely brought a smile to your face when you watched her play.

I can't say enough good things about Kim Kleister's and I'm happy I'm able to speak on one of the pictures I had when I was at the open. had her picture on the wall and there's a picture. I'll send it to you later. It's got Roger, it's got Serena, it's got Kim and I want to say

There's one person in the middle who you recognize and a rando ball kid right in a rando ball boy And I'm like you have no idea the tennis greatness that's that's surrounding you right now in this picture You know what I mean? And you this ball kid from New York He was just probably getting there as a summer job to you know pick up some pocket change to be a ball boy this at this tournament and you have you have one of the best pictures on the walls inside of the

Alvin Owusu (32:02.589)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (32:18.171)
Inside of the Chase Center and I was inside took a picture of it. I'm like that's a great picture We're up there last or several weeks ago at the conference the coaches conference So anyway, it just brought a smile on my face to see her And it was just great to see so Kim Clash was out. is my number 11 four times Grand Slam champ

Alvin Owusu (32:35.995)
And now, yep, I'll follow you up there and I'll also tip my cap since you gave me Naomi. We're just flip flopping here. I have Kim Kisler's at number 10. And I took it, because I took a different path here. The reason I gave her the nod over, and obviously 10 goes in the next episode, but we're talking about it here. The reason I gave her the nod over Naomi is not necessarily because of what I think Naomi can still do. It's four Grand Slam finals.

Torrey Hawkins (32:43.983)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (33:05.961)
as well on top of the wins. So like when you start to look at her, the body of her work, right? First Grand Slam final in 2001, last Grand Slam win was in 2011, right? So she had that period, also had a child, came back and won the US Open after having a child. So I think that with a smattering, rough count, 10.

Torrey Hawkins (33:06.701)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (33:19.715)
Yeah, right.

Alvin Owusu (33:33.962)
semi-final appearances as well. It's showing that she was at the top for a very sustained period of time and then also reached the top as well while there. Similar conversation we had about, I believe, Wozniacki just was able to get it done a few more times. Always around the last two days of the slam, but then again was able to capture the title four times. So yeah, that's...

Torrey Hawkins (34:00.207)
Isn't it crazy? we talk about some of these players as if, you know, as if almost, I got this picture of my sent to you, as if it's, as if this stuff is routine, you know what I mean? And if these players are anything but routine, you know what mean? Anything but routine, you know?

Alvin Owusu (34:16.201)
Absolutely, absolutely. As I'm staring at our composite list here for what lies ahead of us in the top 10 space, I've got a few that you've mentioned. I don't think you've mentioned any of the ones that, no wait, whatever the vice versa of that is. I don't know who you have, so there's no vice versa. I'm looking forward to the next.

Torrey Hawkins (34:26.51)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (34:45.049)
two iterations of this, I think it's gonna be good. But I think we can, I think we're good to stop there for those listening. Let us know what you think. If you wanna take a crack at your top 25 of the last 25 years, I throw it in the comment section. We can debate it out there. Also, if you're still listening, if you think we should drop some merch, just put in like little t-shirt emoji in there. I'm thinking about, I'm thinking we should, if there might be an interest in getting some,

best three merch out there in the world. That might be coming to a Christmas list near you. Yeah, yeah, why not, why not? Tori, anything else for the people before we sign off?

Torrey Hawkins (35:18.988)
I like it. I like it.

Torrey Hawkins (35:24.748)
No, that person on that other pro that was on that picture was one Andy Roddick, by the way. And I will be putting that on my screen on the next episode, just because of the greatness that each one of them had. And I mean, that picture alone, it just speaks volumes. So no, I got nothing else to say, Alvin. I have to say I'm feeling better about this exercise the more we get into it. Because it's...

Alvin Owusu (35:31.677)
I was going to say, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (35:50.963)
Good, good.

Torrey Hawkins (35:54.057)
It's, what's the word? It's therapeutic. It's therapeutic as I'm talking it out because I keep feeling like I'm doing somebody's injustice, but the reality of it is, God, it's difficult. And I always hate these exercises for this reason because you always feel like you're not giving anybody their just due.

Alvin Owusu (35:58.921)
Is it cathartic? it? There you go, there you go.

Alvin Owusu (36:16.318)
Hmm.

Alvin Owusu (36:20.059)
Okay, well, mean, got the, it seems like we got the right people in the room. We're just sitting them in the, we're just sitting them in different chairs. Yeah, that's it, that's it. It's it's, we see them, we see them.

Torrey Hawkins (36:25.995)
Different states. Sure. Sure.

I'm not bringing out Helen, Helen, Helen, was it Mills, Moody or whatever. I'm not bringing out Suzanne Langland. I'm not bringing out the old.

Alvin Owusu (36:40.169)
Thank you, I appreciate you at least having some

Torrey Hawkins (36:47.181)
Some level of decorum.

Alvin Owusu (36:49.321)
Jesus, the Mary Pierce of things here. Don't get me started. Okay, all right, well. Yeah, I guess she was. I think Martina Navratso-Lobo also played in Grand Slammer 2 in 2000. Here we go, here we go. Here we go, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (36:54.603)
He was playing Alvin at 2000.

Torrey Hawkins (37:01.101)
You got that right. And I almost put her in the mix because of that reason. She won number 50 with Leander Pace, Don't Sleep, but that's another talk show. Number 50, Alvin, 50. I hear you. I had to stop her. 96, she stopped.

Alvin Owusu (37:11.262)
God bless. All right, yeah. Okay, fair. All right, let's put a pin in it. I'm Alvin, that's Tori. Like, subscribe, comment, tell your friends, all that good stuff. And we'll catch you on the next one. Best three, we are out.

Torrey Hawkins (37:26.573)
Peace.