Ep. 70: Asia Swing: Novak’s Turning Point, Valentin’s Rise, and Coco’s Command

Alvin Owusu (00:00.654)
And we're back another episode of the best three podcast. I'm still Alvin. That's still Tori and we are, we're back at it again, TH. It feels like we've been like passerbys in the night lately, but we are here. It's another late night edition Sunday night. We're on the heels of I guess, Wuhan and on the women's side and Shanghai on the men's side, but wanted to get together and just kind of talk about what's happened in the last, like call it

Torrey Hawkins (00:12.819)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (00:30.446)
two and a half weeks in Asia. You know, the men had been in Shanghai for a minute, women were in Beijing, and then on to Wuhan. So we've got some fresh set of Masters champions. But before we get into that, TH, how are you?

Torrey Hawkins (00:45.571)
I'm good, Alvin, I'm good. It has been a very, you know, the the Mrs. and I are empty nesters now. So that still takes some getting used to and every, you know, after about four years or so, you know, I'm used to, you know, the kiddos being gone to school and being and not being here, but it's starting to feel a little more. I'm not going to say empty. I'm going to say a little more permanently empty. that's a it's a good feeling in some ways. And it's a weird feeling in some ways being a

Alvin Owusu (00:54.296)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:13.745)
of some older kiddos. And so it's, it's, it's, I'm getting used to it. You know, I'm getting used to it. I've got, I think that's, that's what I'll say. I'm, it's, it takes each, each phase as many of the listeners and as you now know, you know, with your two, just when you get used to one phase, there's another one coming, right? Just when you get used to, you know, them being, you know, Gigi and Ash are now.

Alvin Owusu (01:35.34)
Right, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:42.442)
Six and eight. Six and eight.

Torrey Hawkins (01:43.038)
We're not about to say, I'm about to say 90. yeah, six and eight. They are, you're, you're now dealing with, you know, we've just got, you just got good at, at, at, at seven and five and now, you know what I mean? It's just, it's just the next chapter. And it's like, they, they, uh, you just got comfortable, got decent at that past phase, you know, and, it's, it's kind of like tennis in some ways. You feel like I just got used to what you were doing. And then the second set started and you're like,

Alvin Owusu (01:53.23)
You

Alvin Owusu (02:09.291)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:12.828)
Now on to the next. And so anyway, that's how I'm doing. How are you doing? How's the kiddos and how's things on the ATL side effects?

Alvin Owusu (02:24.27)
Yeah, it's all good. Like you said, opposite side of the coin here with the kids situation. I might be much younger. I'm inundated with kid-related activities at any given point of the day, the week. It's always kid stuff. But that's the lens through which I live my life these days. We're getting them through things. Yeah, it's not too bad. It's not too bad. What else would I be doing with my time?

Torrey Hawkins (02:30.845)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:35.389)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (02:40.424)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (02:43.911)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:49.086)
Pretty cool lens, by the way. Pretty cool lens. know what I mean? It's a... Right, right. I think we appreciate Larry and Hilda and, you know, Dix and Vicky a whole lot more than we... The more, the older we get, right? We appreciate what they went through. You know what I mean? So I had a... My brother, I'm the Alvin.

Alvin Owusu (02:54.934)
So you're 40 something years old just hanging out.

Alvin Owusu (03:06.626)
Sure, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (03:13.886)
my brothers and Travis, you know what I mean? So trust me, I get it a lot. I was just talking to my dad before I jumped on the pod. You think that he's changed and really it's probably you. You me, I'm the one who's changed. It's kind of a neat moment. My dad used to tell me about this Mark Twain quote, and I'll get back to Tennessee, he said, when I left home at 18, I thought my father was the stupidest man alive. When I returned home at 21, I thought he was the smartest person.

Alvin Owusu (03:26.221)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (03:43.888)
live and you know, in Mark Twain fashion, funny how much he learned in three years, right? So, you know, man, and so I'm living the extended part of that is, you know, I'm realizing the some of the just the common sense stuff, the same things through through those lenses. And while, while certainly not infallible, and not always 100 % correct, certainly had a good read on on the main things. And so, that out to pop shout out to Dixon Uso, who still

Alvin Owusu (04:08.78)
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (04:13.273)
still to this day is one of my favorite parents and just as you know, I just loved tennis and obviously, know, through and I look at you, you know what I mean? So it's I look at I look at all that all the some of the time sometimes the first coach slash the first inspiration in your tennis is your is is one of your parents, you know what I mean? And so it's just a neat neat full circle moment. You know, I mean, really is.

Alvin Owusu (04:34.53)
Right, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (04:39.288)
Yeah, yeah, Dixon's still an avid listener of the podcast. Also, still, I was with him a few weeks ago when we went to visit my family and he's still got tennis channel on all day long. It's, yeah, it's a, and it's a shock. It's no wonder that I'm sitting here yakking on about tennis, but in the land of things, let's pop over to the men's side, right? So, this is more of one of our, yeah, so we're,

Torrey Hawkins (04:42.588)
Oh, there you go.

Torrey Hawkins (04:46.695)
Yeah. I love it. I love it. wouldn't be, it be Dixon if he didn't. You know what I mean? 100%. 100%.

Torrey Hawkins (05:03.665)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (05:07.79)
So coming out of Beijing on the men's side, going into Shanghai, I guess Beijing and Tokyo, but those 500s not coming into the Masters 1000. I think the big news was like, Carlos is like, I'm good, I'm skipping this one. And then early on, Center gets dinged up and has to bow out against Tallinn Creek Spore. And then so that kind of leaves what you think is Novak to do the thing that Novak said he was gonna do.

Torrey Hawkins (05:20.998)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (05:37.358)
I'm gonna maybe clean up at some of these, you know, best out of three events. But that's, that ain't what we got. That is not what, that's not what happened.

Torrey Hawkins (05:43.577)
Nope, nope, not at all. Not at all. And I will say this, Alvin. I don't like

giving a young player too much credit too soon. When I use the term, and you and I were just talking about this young man before we got on, when I use the term baby Chilich, I think Moran Chilich is one of the best players, you know, outside of the top three and you know, and the big five that we've had. Dare I say he should be included in the big five if you had put an asterisk in there and taken

you know, and could put six instead of five, right? I mean, he's, his resume is up that close with a couple of slams, including the other couple of guys. He's just wasn't quite that level. So when I say this two time grand slam champ is a solid player, and I'm now giving this young player for Monaco, his props, you have to appreciate that I have fully seen matches this guy's played. He not only.

took out Novak, I'm talking about your boy Valentin Bachelorette. Not only did he have the composure, you know what I love the most about him? When he won that match, Alvin, he was as humble and was almost apologizing that he looked as if he was just happy to have played one of his idols on the court.

Alvin Owusu (06:55.297)
Valentin Vasharov, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (07:18.079)
Right. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (07:19.004)
You could just see the humility in his eyes. Like he didn't want to speak. He was just like, look, sir, you speak. I know I won the match, but I know you were a shell of yourself today. I'm just happy that I was able to keep my composure to do your legacy, the justice it deserved. And mind you, he, he took your boy to the tool shed, but he did it in his own fashion. And Alvin, got to tell you.

earned also just another ounce of respect for Novak. He could have pulled out. He was dinged up. He gave the fans what they came to see. He enjoyed the battle. I think deep down he knew this guy's on fire tonight, but he did not. He took his medical. He took his medical and hit like he normally does, just ice the kicker as Novak is always going to try. But it seemed to me that he realized, you know what?

Alvin Owusu (08:00.589)
You know...

Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (08:14.895)
Don't fella, if you can, if you're good enough to take it from me, you have to do it. But if you do it, good for you. And I just, I just liked that. I just liked the vibe that he gave the match toward the end, especially. And I just wanted to say that.

Alvin Owusu (08:18.359)
So, let me ask you this then.

Alvin Owusu (08:27.565)
Right, and I didn't have any intentions on kind of going down this Novak path tonight, but while we're here, let's talk about it a little bit because Novak playing this event was a little kind of eye-raising to begin with. Like, what is he doing here? Like, why is he playing? I mean, it's a Masters 1000, yes, I understand, but he often, like, well, he'll skip a Masters 1000 with no problem. it's his... Yeah, yeah, it's like...

Torrey Hawkins (08:42.395)
Thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (08:51.226)
Especially on his way to what are that six Kings or whatever he's probably gonna play, you know, it's it and it's not about the paycheck. So why?

Alvin Owusu (08:57.197)
Yeah, it's not the right direction either. It's like it's like so why was he here? Okay, then it's it's it's Shanghai. It's hot. It's it's humid. It's gross He did well to get to the semis but walked in with like pretty much dead legs But now we're starting to talk about the same thing, right? Like this is what's been happening in Grand Slams, right? He get when he when he gets in the meat and potatoes against the big boys He is you know, he's he's out of juice and he seemed to you know, we're in the we're in the semifinals and again, he's

you know, add a juice for whatever reason, right? Conditions, know, wear and tear. Sure, yeah, but we're...

Torrey Hawkins (09:29.69)
There, there, round of 16, three sets with Munnar. He then went, I want to say, didn't he have another long match? He had a close one with Burgs, and then my point is to your point, to you about Dead Legs, and he had some tough matches just getting to where he got. You know what I mean? And then before you got to Basherow.

Alvin Owusu (09:45.102)
Right, right. but like, so like, what, what, do we like? mean, Vashro did what he, you know, what the other players probably couldn't do. And he took advantage of the situation. You know, you've got to, you've got to, uh, uh, wounded Novak here. You take him down. He played, he brought his game to him. Kudos, but like the same things keep happening to Novak. Like we're, getting the same result kind of all the time, like getting to the semifinals. And then we, hit the wall, whether it's, you know, best out of three set matches over the course of

Torrey Hawkins (09:56.212)
100%. Wounded. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (10:07.79)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (10:15.149)
at 11 or 12 days, semi-finals, or we're talking about best out of three set matches over the course of, you seven days.

Torrey Hawkins (10:21.37)
Yep. And maybe that's part of the reason why he played it because it does have a little bit of a spread out schedule. He was able to play, you know, um, the one thousands do spread it out a bit, right? Over the, over the course of the, of the, the I'm going to take a different, a different plug number one. And you have to appreciate, am. If I have spanned the gamut on Novak from incredulous to.

Alvin Owusu (10:33.645)
They're starting to, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (10:49.174)
impressed to you got to be kidding me to to wow to do he's he's the real deal to he's the best ever to to you know you know he should retire I mean you you can't I mean only a 20 year plus career could could have the same number of epiphanies and revelations I've had on Novak Djokovic and the level of player that he is I feel very similar to the way I felt about Serena

Alvin Owusu (10:57.515)
He's the best ever, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (11:19.289)
Number one, why does she, why does she still play there toward the end? You can say she's chasing that number. In her case, that number was a 24. was chasing 24 and nobody's chasing the 25. You can say that. And that's good for all the record books and this and that. But I think deep down, the record was the record. Sure. Why not go for it? But I think the bigger reason was I haven't been knocked off yet. I'm still here.

Alvin Owusu (11:25.997)
I think he's going for 24, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:45.985)
Right. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (11:48.73)
And until yeah, I've lost a couple of matches. I mean, yes, I've lost a step, I'm still Serena the queen and Novak. I'm still the king. You have, you have started to get my attention and yes, I'm not near the player. was 10 years ago, maybe even five. However, I still feel good. I have a shot. And to your point out of it, he's still gotten to a few semis of some slams to his credit at his current stage. So I

Alvin Owusu (11:55.735)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (12:18.521)
I'm coming at Novak a little different.

And I have to say players like Vacheros have perhaps helped to put him in a place where he feels comfortable. To start to let tennis move on without it until then, until the Vacheros started to do this. He could easily say, and quite frankly in good faith.

Alvin Owusu (12:37.228)
Mmm.

Torrey Hawkins (12:48.375)
I'm still the number three player in the world right now. Only the top two have my number. Yeah, I've lost an occasional match here and there. Jakub got on fire in that match in Miami. Other players, I've lost a match. I wasn't feeling this, wasn't feeling that. I've had some tough ones. Sure. I'm still Novak. And I think this match here, mind you, dinged up, mind you, KT tape all over them and whatnot. We saw that. But I just feel like if this happens two to three more times,

Alvin Owusu (12:50.836)
Right, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (13:17.695)
Novak will finally feel tennis as caught up to his level and he's able to walk away. And I know that sounds strange, but I think when you've carried the game at such a high level for so long, I feel like it's almost your personal obligation to feel like, okay, now it's time. And I'm not saying he's going to make that announcement soon. I don't want him to get into that whole speculation. I'm saying

Alvin Owusu (13:31.916)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (13:47.479)
He has the right to assume in a sense that the future of the game is going to be okay without him. As long as he got beat on the way out by those who are ready to take up the mantle in his place. That's what I'm saying.

Alvin Owusu (14:05.068)
That's fair, and I don't know that. I'm with you, I don't know that necessarily, know, Valentin is the guy or one of the guys, but I'm with you, I'm with you. Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (14:13.496)
Probably not. Probably not at 204. But a player like him and if five other players, I think the point of making with Valentin is that if 204 can do it on a given day, two out of three great sets, right? You know, know, Yannick can do it. You know, Carlos can do it and both have done it. And we've we talked about this in our previous podcast at the French and at Wimby.

Alvin Owusu (14:30.986)
Right. Right.

Sure, sure.

Torrey Hawkins (14:42.328)
But now we're dealing with them playing. He's playing, not them. And now that is, and that's all I'm saying is that if the other players are starting to notch their belt on him and he's starting to realize, oh, okay. Because I don't think, I think he's been playing to be that benchmark for that long. It's, yeah, it's 25, but let's be honest. He doesn't really.

If he doesn't win 25, he's still the best of all time. So it's not like he's got to break somebody's record. He has the record. I just feel like in his own way, he's going to say, I'm going to play for as long as I'm able and tennis still needs me. And until the game can, in a sense, move past me, I'm going keep playing. And I think that he's starting to get, he always has known that Father Time, even these comments he's made, Father Time is undefeated.

Alvin Owusu (15:11.647)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (15:38.456)
Maybe not five sets, maybe two out of three. Well, maybe not even two out of three now. So I feel like what Valentine did was helped him to understand, if not now when, but more importantly, hey, look at what you've done. You've gotten, even top 200 is inspired to play the tennis of his life just to make a competitive match with you. And while I was very happy to have my career win against you,

It was also an honor to have played you. And I think that's what I saw. I saw a, and I'm not saying he's a Naomi, I saw Naomi giving deference to Serena when I saw Valentine walk up to the net today, the other day against Novak. It was deference, it was humility. was, thank you for being one of the best in the world. And I am honored to have won this match. That's what I saw, and that's all.

Alvin Owusu (16:33.036)
Well, it's even more so, mean, you could even couch it and say, know, Vashro had a, he's having a career week, right? Like, and that was one of the most clean matches he, like, one of the more routine matches he had all week, actually. Like, similar score against Lazlo Gera in the first round, but you know, the players that he beat, he beat quality players from Bublik, and know, Mahatch did a Mahatch thing, but then he also, you know, took out Tal, and he takes out Holger, he takes out Novak, and then,

Torrey Hawkins (16:41.953)
No, 100%.

Alvin Owusu (17:02.476)
and then plays against his cousin in the final and a pretty fantastic match. you know what it reminded me of though? This kind of run, so he goes from 200 to, I think he's gonna be 40, something like that next week, 40? mean, yeah, you get a lot of points if you wanna master his 1,000, but like, right.

Torrey Hawkins (17:07.51)
Solid match.

Torrey Hawkins (17:16.758)
Yeah, I heard that. Yeah, 36, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:22.871)
You also come from 204. So I'm just saying.

Alvin Owusu (17:25.004)
Yeah, but so that's a really that's really good timing though because now that sets him up really well for the rest of for next year, right? He's gonna be a direct entry into all the Grand Slams probably all the Masters 1000. So like at age 26, we're gonna find out. Okay, what kind of player is he? Is he a 200 level challenger player or 200 world challenge player that had a good week or is he this level player who just needed this is this quote unquote breakout and it really reminds me of You makes this run

Torrey Hawkins (17:30.966)
100%. 100%.

Torrey Hawkins (17:43.126)
Right, that just had a good week. Right, yep.

Alvin Owusu (17:54.468)
at Wimbledon a couple, was three years ago now? But then in the subsequent 12 months, had a tough time backing it up. Yeah, backing it up, so I think.

Torrey Hawkins (17:54.678)
Yep. Go Wendy. Yep, yep, Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (18:01.623)
defending. Sure, sure. And we'll see that right you mentioned cousin also teammate right from from A You know back in college and so I just feel like you're absolutely right Alvin and again I don't want to put any more roses on on Valentine Vasharov then then he has to then he has yet to earn as I said I'm giving him pretty good props by comparing him even to Chilich in his style of play.

You remember old school, never nervous, Purvis Ellison from back in the day. He just seemed like he was, he was so, he was so composed. So his composure in that match to me was what won me over because how do you stay composed playing Novak Djokovic, number one, and number two, playing well, knowing that anytime, you know, Novak could turn it on or at any time you feel like your play could fall off. it's new.

Alvin Owusu (18:31.744)
yeah. Never nervous, always at your service.

Alvin Owusu (18:54.742)
fall out of the tree every single branch

Torrey Hawkins (18:56.054)
Right, right. So it hit every branch all the way down, right? So I feel like he did such a masterful job of not only staying in that moment, he absolutely owned it. And then of course, backing up with a great final, he was actually going away in that match and hit this backhand up the line against his cousin. I mean, when I tell you just took a return, like I'm taking this back at the line, you know, to heck with it. And that one backhand return turned his whole set around, let alone the rest of the match.

Anyway, I say it to say this guy is who he showed his hunger. He showed his tennis level play well all week, which is not easy to do. Right. It's not easy to play a week to 10 days, good tennis and play that focus and that solid and to have that kind of belief. Right. But I also feel like he did that and hats off to him. This to me was more about Novak on, you know, waxing, you know, than it was, than it, than it was him waning, you know, but it certainly was a great tournament.

I'm just, I'm excited to see his next year. I'm excited to see what Novak will do. And I think that's where I'm at with this. I feel like if, you know, again, a 204 can do this to number to the greatest of all time, you know, to me that that should give him a little bit of pause to say, okay, okay, I don't need to be, I don't, I don't need to be everybody's good career win my last six months on the tour. It's how I'm kind of taking it. What do you say?

Alvin Owusu (20:12.789)
Well, we-

Alvin Owusu (20:18.827)
But also, think, I look at it, I hear you, I also have to think about it, me, Novak shows up in Shanghai, we haven't seen Novak since US Open, right? So he hasn't played a tournament in six weeks or so, something like that, right? That's a pretty good, that's a pretty good layoff. So like, does Novak's plan for the rest of the year? Like, is he using this event to get himself like, ready to go to Paris? Is he gonna play in Paris? That's in a couple weeks, or a couple days.

Torrey Hawkins (20:34.216)
Yup, yup.

Alvin Owusu (20:47.401)
And then there's also like year and finals, is he planning on participating there? So like, if that's his plan, then okay, you gotta get one of these under your belt, get some matches. got, you know, five matches here or whatever. That's, that's, then maybe that's, that's job done if he's, if he's making a run at, you know, is he trying to get himself into that number three spot, solidify, go into Australian Open, like with a, with a really, really nice, with a real opportunity for him to get a, you know, a cleaner start into that tournament or, you know, even further into the tournament. So,

Torrey Hawkins (20:55.625)
Yeah, yeah, sure.

Alvin Owusu (21:17.835)
That's my no back of it. No real takeaway, just kind of like, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (21:20.306)
Yeah, yeah, and that's fair. And there is that one, right? But I think it's certainly relevant for us to talk about it and to just, you know, quiet and muse. You know what? This could add yet another straw, you know what I mean, on the proverbial camel's back to what he may do in the future. I would not be surprised at all if he calls it a day in Australia. I really won't. He's won that event more than anybody.

Alvin Owusu (21:32.629)
What does it mean? Like, put a-

Torrey Hawkins (21:49.555)
That's been his favorite slam. I think it was his first slam. Clearly it'd be a good place to wrap it up. Unlike, you know, not unlike Nadal did at the French. So, and again, I think that I saw some other things about it from the Australian side of things. They'll be prepared if that happens. So I just feel like.

He will be.

The match took on the, the, the minor significance of the game is now in a good place. If you want it to step aside now, it's okay. And that's the, and that's the place that I, that's, that's the view. That's the lens under which I saw it. It's almost, there was a couple of looks after a couple of big points that he was looked over and he was almost smiling, like kind of happy for.

for for Vashirel. He was kind of like, you know what man? Great match. Good for you. Like, yeah, and it wasn't not pissed at himself for I'm not or I'm not healthy. It was I'm good. And to your point, what does that mean? We don't know. But it just it looked it he looked dare I say, this is a very un Novak like quality content.

Alvin Owusu (22:55.659)
We don't know. We don't know.

Alvin Owusu (23:05.579)
Right, yeah, yeah, and he usually doesn't look that salty. He handles losses with a lot of grace. From a loss against a guy like Vashro to a loss against Carlos to a loss against Yannick. He always seems to, once they get to the net, he carries himself like the elder statesman of the game. Class act 100 % of the way there. Before we totally switch gears, I wanna just quickly.

Torrey Hawkins (23:25.03)
MP and ES. Yeah, 100%.

Alvin Owusu (23:35.209)
call out, met, had himself a nice couple of weeks. He did back to back semi-finals, in Beijing and then Shanghai, get himself.

Torrey Hawkins (23:39.473)
He did. Yup.

Torrey Hawkins (23:45.619)
and how to drag out with RenderNash in this semi.

Alvin Owusu (23:48.491)
In the semifinals, yeah. So like, does it mean anything? I don't know, but he's in this part of his career now, like he's got a new coach, he's working with Thomas Johansson now and trying to figure out like, okay, what's in this stage of his career, what does he have left? Who is the player he's going to need to become evolve into to, you know, he's 29 years old, about to be 30. He's passed his prime, right? And is he gonna be on the tour for five more years? I highly doubt it.

But what can Danil Medvedev be in 2026 and beyond with the, know, he's won 20 titles in his career, he's won a Grand Slam, he's been one of the world. how, lost a few finals, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:30.948)
lost a few finals, know what few Grand Slam finals, you know? So that to me is, that to me is B plus, honorable mention right there. So it's one thing to win one, it's another thing to win one and lose two finals. I think it's been two. I mean, so that in itself, that in itself is big, so that he's been there and done it again. So no fluke, right? But you know what? As long as he continues to improve, I've always felt like the Neal's issues were not coming to that enough, not.

Alvin Owusu (24:43.923)
He lot, yeah, at least.

Torrey Hawkins (25:00.253)
finishing what he started. has punishing groundstrokes. We all know that. He can get out there all day long. We all know that. He's taller than you think, faster than you think. Unfortunately, as far as the time lets you know, that can't go on forever. And so it's just something that I'd love to see a new wrinkle. When the dog got older, you saw more slice. You saw more coming to net, of all people. Novak got older. You saw more serving volley. You saw a lot more taking a few inside outs, you know, to try to

Broke the court, saw a few more rolls, a ton more drop shots and so on. You kept seeing these different nuances and different ways to win. I don't feel like, I didn't feel like, and he showed at this tournament, he's coming forward a lot more. He's hit the ball to come in a little bit more. just didn't, I always felt like DeNeal was still trying to out, hit you, outlast you, outstead of you in times past and kind of letting the experience he had that you might miss. And I'll go back to that learner 10 max that he lost.

Australia almost a year ago now. He just didn't seem like he had anything behind it after that was the case. And ironically, I think he beat Lerner in this tournament here and did a nice job. So many times, right? It's almost like the way the computer puts them there together. But my point is, I felt like that was a tough matchup for him and he handled that match quite well. So that was, I just say it to say, look forward to Deneil. He's always been a fun player to watch. Look forward to seeing this next chapter of his.

Alvin Owusu (26:06.57)
They've played so many times like this year. It's weird

Torrey Hawkins (26:26.193)
and his buddy Rubel Aspyn, who I haven't seen in a few weeks, but I felt like Daniel has done a really bang up job. And kind of back to his pride, back on the indoor hard courts, and where he thrives.

Alvin Owusu (26:39.338)
Right, yeah. Yeah, just kind of before we go over to the women's side, I was taking a look at the winners of the, Vashro obviously coming out of nowhere and winning this Masters 1000. I was thinking, I feel like there've been a lot of randomness, like a lot of one-off winners in Masters 1000s on the men's side this year. And of the eight events, we've had six different winners and none of them were named Novak Djokovic or Yannick Sinner, right? So obviously.

Torrey Hawkins (26:57.937)
This year. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (27:09.15)
Yannick missed a couple of them due to the suspension and I guess he missed three of them. But it's, it's, I'm not going to say it's a sign of parody. It's, I don't know if it's a sign of anything. I didn't really, you know, reverse research this to see how abnormal it is, but I mean, Carlos has done his job. He's won three of them, but then you've got other players like Draper, Juan Andean Wells and Minshik in Miami, obviously Vassarro here. Then Shelton won Canada. And then,

Torrey Hawkins (27:09.243)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (27:38.228)
Casper snuck in Madrid, right? So.

Torrey Hawkins (27:40.177)
Yup, To his demise in the French, I might add. But...

Alvin Owusu (27:45.166)
Right. you take what you can get. You take what you can get. But it's just, it's interesting. I was talking to someone tonight at dinner, and he grew up in the Cincinnati area, going to the Cincinnati Open, so we just kept talking about tennis a little bit. We were talking about kind of like what seems to be this chasm between two and the rest of the, like the top two and then everyone else. And I feel like that's the biggest question mark in the men's game right now is like, how is that gap going to close?

Torrey Hawkins (27:57.999)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (28:14.652)
and is it going to continue to widen until new players, like are the players who are there now, are those gonna be the ones that actually close that gap, are our hopes better spent on someone who's currently 16 or 17 years old right now, who will then become the one to challenge them?

Torrey Hawkins (28:29.562)
Yeah, it's tough to say because off this match today, while I too agree that the gap is widening between two and everyone else, including number three, I feel like the gap between 204 and top 40 just got pancaked. So to my point, feel like, and this started back in Australia, Alvin, you're not talking about this about all the upsets and things that happen.

With all of the withdrawals, with all of the retires, with all that happened in the French. I want to say, wasn't it something crazy, like 20, some odd, 18, I think, some odd players that, the seeds that went out early for whatever reason, matches, injuries and what have you. I feel like, well, now you've got a whole nother set of players, 18, that have probably gotten two, three more rounds in slams than they normally would go. So that creates a little bit of a vacuum. Now this Vashra character comes in out of nowhere.

Alvin Owusu (29:21.843)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (29:26.266)
You know, much like Jakub did in Miami, but he had to have the term of his life. But this guy's not, he's not, he's not a complete no name. He's been out there for a while. He top player at A cousins and teammates and friends with Render Nets and Render Nets himself, you know, not as as a solid player. So you're looking at what, what has been in his, is he, is he 30, 20? What, what is he, what is he in the world right now?

Alvin Owusu (29:49.802)
in the world, ready to connect, so I'll keep going, I'll pull it up, we'll find out,

Torrey Hawkins (29:52.24)
Yeah, my point been solace what I'm saying that he's certainly not not a not a not 110. And so and he's been out there and had a handful of big matches this past year knocked off some good players. Didn't been the next beat. It's very been the first round or two of was that was it windy but what was what was his big win that he had he beat somebody earlier this year I thought it was I thought it was very early maybe second round.

Alvin Owusu (30:15.446)
Possibly I mean he's coming out

Torrey Hawkins (30:17.78)
or maybe first round French. Anyway, my point being, I thought he had a big match where he knocked off a seed early. And to my point, clearly, nobody's walking the park and I just said to say.

Alvin Owusu (30:26.508)
yeah, you nailed it. Yeah, he beat Zverev first round in Wimbledon

Torrey Hawkins (30:30.64)
I so. remember, I remember that match. I remember like, and I think he beat him pretty good. I think he like, it was, I say it to say, you're, when you're, let's just say he's 30. I don't know what quite what his ranking is. Let's say somewhere around that, around that range, maybe a little bit better. When that level is knocking off a top four five seed, that shows you that that level is getting closer. When a Vashiro at 204 is getting this deep in Shanghai, forget,

Alvin Owusu (30:52.328)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (31:00.545)
Getting into Shanghai, let alone, know, quality then right? Let alone getting this deep it after the qualities, let alone winning the darn thing. You start realizing that there's a lot of upsides and misplays that are out there. I think it's too early to talk about the next number three, who's going to challenge the top two. I think we're looking more at a situation of who will the next two be. And that's where I think we should be looking at our in a sense our

Alvin Owusu (31:01.694)
He quality in, quality in, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (31:29.295)
putting our periscope down that far. I just feel these two are going to continue to move on as long as they're healthy. They'll be where they are. Alvin, it could be three or four years. And at that point in time, will they start to come down a bit? Will the tour catch up to them? Yes, it will. Do I think it'll be in the next year or so? Not really. But do I think that they'll eventually catch up? They always do, Alvin. They always do. They'll catch up. Who will it be? I just think the tour at large will catch up. I don't think it'll be a player.

Alvin Owusu (31:29.756)
Alvin Owusu (31:50.378)
Well, okay, that's the thing, like, who, who?

Alvin Owusu (31:58.026)
So that's the thing, I think I'm with you and I think this is one of things we should celebrate with someone like a Vacheros popping and winning a major title and beating good players along the way is like someone who's 200 in the world is damn good, right? There's not that much of a difference in any given match between 200 and 30, right? Like Renekrinesh is 40 in the world. there's your sample right there.

Torrey Hawkins (32:21.144)
There you go.

Alvin Owusu (32:24.871)
But what I think is happening is like, yeah, that level looks better, but it's also probably a reflection of maybe the top outside of the two is coming down a little bit. that gap is closing from let's say five to 200 as opposed to the gap between five and two. That gap doesn't feel like it's closing at all. It's the other gap that is, which makes, you know, let's take the Carlos and the Yannick out of it, right? Like what they're doing is obvious and we talk about it a lot at Nozim here on this podcast and a lot of other places.

Torrey Hawkins (32:43.714)
Right. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (32:54.537)
I think this is an opportunity to celebrate what you should be doing when you're at tennis tournaments in the first couple days is go out to court 18. There's great tennis players out there. The next guy that's gonna pop through and win a random 500, 1000 is out there on court 18, court 17 grinding away against Rublev or something and you have an opportunity to go sit on the sideline and watch them. So go do that. Go do that, enjoy that because these guys are ballin' all over the place.

Torrey Hawkins (33:02.008)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (33:12.654)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (33:16.46)
Right. That's right.

was at a at I was at I want to say it was 1614 15. I forget on some outdoor courts court old court six and seven at the US Open. I saw Jessica Bagula when I won one of our first matches at the open first round and Alexander is very on the plate on the same quarter right next to each other. This is years ago, 10 plus years ago, Alvin and I'm telling you, I remember saying to myself,

this verification is gonna be good. And I said the same about Jessica, she's got a shot, you know? And I wanna say at a similar tournament a year or two later, I was watching, we were there watching the qualities and I saw Naomi play one of the American girls there. And so to your point, and you just saw the way she was hitting you like, girl's gonna be good one day. Like she's got everything, everything. It's just a matter of time for her to put it all together. And to your point, that kind of player you like, I kind of pride myself on having seen these players when they were.

Alvin Owusu (33:59.806)
Right, yep.

Torrey Hawkins (34:17.197)
you know, when they were up and comers and kind of tagged them, so to speak, you know, like you get to watch this one, she's going to be good. And I, I think that this is exactly to your point. It's going to keep happening. I don't think, I think the tour is just getting that much better. And that's my point. I don't think it should be looked at as a negative. think people should realize the tennis that they're, that you're watching. If you had put two different names on that final and they had been some names you'd recognize, so to speak.

Alvin Owusu (34:45.253)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (34:46.221)
you would have had us, you'd have had, the crowd already looks sold out, but you would have had more eyes on that screen. But that match was a good match, Alvin. These two, I had no idea until after I checked and looked up some things, they were A-related and B-teammates. I was like, man, he got really emotional for this being a routine match. I don't speak French, so I'm not sure what he was saying, but he's getting really choked up. And so that's when I, you know, when I looked up, I'm like, oh, that all makes sense.

Alvin Owusu (35:03.44)
Hehehehehe

Torrey Hawkins (35:14.775)
while he was, you know, giving them a lot of props there. But I say it to say that was a quality match. I mean, just a great match. It was no let off from the match with both with the Neil or from Novak the match before it was quality. And I'm looking at this land dude. If this guy proved himself that he is certainly worthy of being top 50 and then some we'll see what the next year brings. Right. But I'm just telling you Alvin.

that the level has grown. Now, what will that do to the next year? That will push them a little further. Now, now they keep getting a little stronger over time and it may take a year over time. feel 10 through 20 will start to push that much stronger on six through 12, so to speak. And then you're going to have six through 12. One of them is going to just start saying, you know what?

somebody's got to this match, might as well be me. And then that one of them is going to end up serving and maybe have been serving bombs and just going through a draw on the right day. might be Taylor, know, feeling like, you know what? I beat you once before I can do it again, you know, and then you beat him in Davis Cup. What was that that he beat him in? What match did Taylor beat Carlos in? Not long back. Labor Cup, Just saying.

Alvin Owusu (36:14.269)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (36:35.529)
A laver cup, come on, come on. laver cup. And then Carlos tuned him up like the next week in a real tournament.

Torrey Hawkins (36:41.561)
To my point, he's in that slot. Could he? That's all I'm saying. Could he? And I'm just telling you, could it be? Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (36:54.313)
don't even want to think about it. just want to, we got, we were forced to talk about these guys a lot, in the, especially around the Grand Slams and usually around these Masters events. It's kind of refreshing to go like, you know what, Valentin Vachero and Arthur Rindicanesh, like thank you. Thank you for entertaining us. The tennis is still good.

Torrey Hawkins (37:06.226)
Yeah, it could could. buddy. Yep. Thank you. Thank you for giving us a great week of tennis. My one thing I'm saying I don't think we should be looking at one player. We should look for the tour in mass to catch up over time. That's my point. And that's all I'll say on the on the subject.

Alvin Owusu (37:24.969)
That's fair. That's fair. That's could be death of a thousand cuts.

Torrey Hawkins (37:27.692)
It'll be a death of a thousand cuts for some of these guys to finally get there. But anyway.

Alvin Owusu (37:30.185)
Yeah, mentioned Jessica Bagula, you've seen her at US Open, so I think that's a good time to segue over to the women's side. I'm gonna kinda wanna take a look at, obviously, the Wuhan 1000 wrapped up today. Cocoa Golf beat Jessica Bagula, four and five in the final. But also, we didn't really talk much about the women's event in Beijing the week prior, where Amanda Smova takes that title. But I'm looking at both of them.

Torrey Hawkins (37:53.238)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (37:59.497)
in a, you know, kind of together because you had all of the top players were there either in both events or, you know, some of them like Amanda played Beijing and then decided not to go to Wuhan. Irina Sabalenka did not play Beijing, showed up to Wuhan fresh. Um, I think you're, you're, you're starting to see, I don't know that I'm really starting to see anything to be honest with you or learn anything, but it's, it's really just a testament. feel like it's a testament to the, the top of the women's game.

having a lot of parity right now. Like one through eight, they're all, one, they're all showing up, right? They show up and they usually come to these events. Ega had a rough couple of weeks there. She looks a little bit burnt out and maybe indoor's not the best place for her tennis. know, Coco, she got blitzkrieg by Anna Samova in the semifinals of Beijing.

And everyone's like, gosh, what's wrong with Coco? was like, okay, well that's probably more about Amanda because Amanda on her good day is gonna give everyone problems and Coco as well. Like she'll step into the court and just, she'll bully her. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (39:10.443)
stay on a hard court with the true balance and that backhand. And if Coco tries to match up back in the backhand, that's a bad matchup for Sabalinka. You know what I mean? You know it's a tough matchup for somebody who doesn't have that same serve and doesn't have that same strike. You know what I mean? that's just, that's a problem.

Alvin Owusu (39:20.741)
Right. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (39:32.883)
Coco's best shot is her backhand cross. And then where's that going? That's going right into Amanda's backhand anywhere. She'll take that backhand off the line and now it's going to Coco's weakness, the forehand side. But it's not even like it's going there. It's going past, it's crossing the baseline that way. The hell with rally. We're not changing the rally, we're ending the rally going that way. But then Coco backs it up, gets to the final, plays a great match today against Jessica. But then you've also got, and then Jessica, semifinal last week, final this week.

Torrey Hawkins (39:46.763)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (39:57.515)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (40:02.6)
Cocoa, semi-final last week, final this week. Paolini, quarter-final last week, semi-final this week. Our top players are showing up, which is great because they're going into WTA finals in two weeks, something like that, maybe two weeks, week and a half. I'm excited about that tournament. I think it's gonna be great. I think they're in Riyadh this year. Everyone is, know, Andreva looks a little, she looks a little burnt out, a little tired. Ega looks a little...

Torrey Hawkins (40:11.093)
going up consistently. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (40:22.975)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (40:30.527)
Yep, yep, long ear fur.

Alvin Owusu (40:32.774)
a little, hell, she won a grand slam this year, whatever, it's fine. But yeah, and Samalinka takes care of pretty handily, which is always good to see after a pretty extensive layoff and then played another tight match against Jessica Pagula, where Nojesty was able to pull it out seven, six and the third. So I say that all to say women's tennis is a fantastic product. It's in a fantastic place right now.

any week that there is a 500 or 1000th event, you turn it on and you know it's going down. And that's what excites me about the women's game right now. like, who's gonna be the last show to open? Hell if I know, but it's gonna be great. It's gonna be great.

Torrey Hawkins (41:17.002)
Tune in and find out. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And you better bring it. And I think that's to carry over and to complete the segue. That's what's happening all across. This is not a bad thing, Alvin. This is a great thing. It's a great thing for tennis. I used to get so mad at the commentators who seemingly wanted to frownce the career or the quality of the previous match by

Alvin Owusu (41:34.056)
It's great. It's fantastic. It's fantastic.

Torrey Hawkins (41:46.217)
putting it to the stopwatch test and another match from Serena. She dispatched her opponent in 37 minutes. And I'm like, you know, the girl is not that bad. Number one, she just hasn't played Serena before or hasn't played on Arthur Ashe before or whatever the case may be. And you got to appreciate how good Serena is, but to dispatch that person like they are

47 minutes worth of someone's time and attention. And this person has been playing for the better part of 10 to 15 years. To me was always doing the rest of the tour of disservice. And I got really upset back in the day. The commentators, we won't go there tonight, but on continuing to diss the rest of the players. I feel like the tour at large has had to now take this upon themselves to say, look here.

I know you haven't heard of me yet, but check this out. I got something to say and I'd like to get an hour and a half of your time and attention just to let you understand that I've been working hard on my craft and maybe you'll remember who I am after this match. And I love the fact that it's not just parody, it's a show of quality of skill that's taking over. And the fact that all of these women are starting to knock each other off.

Alvin Owusu (43:07.624)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (43:11.784)
Not because they want to, trust me. Sabalinka would love to have these ladies just heel over in the second set or go tight and go away in the third. It's just not happening, you know what I mean? And I gotta say, Coco looked as good as I've seen her since she won her other two slams. Looked as clean as she moved well. mean, looked like she had a brand new set of Pirellis on the sports car today. I mean, was just looking. Jessica could not have had longer rallies, Alvin.

And Coco was like, I'll see you one and I'll raise you two. I mean, when you start hitting on the run winners and at ball number 18 in a rally, that's already been pretty high tempo. That just shows level of fitness. Her serves look pretty good, Alvin. We already know the backhands all day. She did that after a week before of some solid tennis, which just shows me that the girl is just in the prime shape right now and really look good and JPEG.

Alvin Owusu (43:45.83)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (44:11.144)
Have to say JPEG at JPEG gotta be she she's got to be close to 30. She's not a little bit or maybe a little past. Oh, does Jessica now? Not quite. Got to be getting close. Got to be getting close. If not, I was gonna say maybe a little past 30. My point being she's she's 31. I thought she was pretty close. She is looking pretty fit herself, right? I would never confuse her with the with the Olympic track star. But I would always say she

Alvin Owusu (44:17.863)
I can pull it, but I think she is probably, she's probably 30, early 30s.

Alvin Owusu (44:27.399)
31, yep.

Torrey Hawkins (44:40.007)
hits the cleanest ball that she manages the court better than anybody with that skill set. And the fact that Coco just had to flat out play her today to take it from her. I was, was again, a quality match. And that was on the heels of her beating Sabalinka and I think Golfy who should be in Palin, know, and one before. So just some good tennis, just some real good tennis, man.

Alvin Owusu (45:01.573)
Yep, And that's one of the, kind of like two things there, that's the nuanced difference between like, Jessica Pagula and Amanda Anisimova, right? Like Pagula hits a clean ball, but that ball won't necessarily hurt you. It's that extra, exactly. And that's the player that sometimes gives Coco troubles. I'm gonna say give Coco troubles, Coco's three in the world, right? So like she's,

Torrey Hawkins (45:17.328)
Right, won't penetrate you. Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (45:25.266)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (45:28.679)
We're going back to back, you know, semi-final final of one thousandth in a year, which she's also won Grand Slam. She's I think she's this is her second, maybe one thousandth win of the year, I believe, maybe. If not, she's finaled a few of them. But yeah, it's like the nuanced difference between Pagula and Anasoma is like just it's kind of like little stuff like that. And I think Coco did a really great job today of adjusting and like using the slice forehand to get herself, you know, out of awkward spots, you know, mid

Torrey Hawkins (45:35.869)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (45:54.472)
We're set.

Right? More importantly, if I can add and to not give Jessica the shot that she normally hurts her with. She went back body with that slice to the backhand. Jessica would prefer to have a running forehand and to strike a ball like she can on the run and then run and then run, Coco, and then maybe come to net and try to come behind it. Coco said, not today. I'm going to give you this ball back right at you in this backhand corner. Create a shot from there.

Alvin Owusu (45:58.28)
a little shorter than... Please do.

Torrey Hawkins (46:28.102)
Create a shot from there that does not go back to my backhand. You know what mean? And from there, we'll see. It's like when you get a bad shot in pool, you know what I mean? And you give them the same bad shot back. You're like, ah, you try it now, now your turn. So at some point you gotta go for your shot. And at that point you come back through me. So I thought she played a very tactical match today. And you could tell they were doing a lot. They know each other's games well. These former doubles partners and whatnot, they know each other's games very well. I was very, very happy to.

Alvin Owusu (46:53.167)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (46:57.228)
see the tactical X's and O's go through that match. It was just good fun to see.

Alvin Owusu (47:03.591)
Yeah, and I think we'll hold off on our, last year, I remember at end of last year, we did a kind of year in review and we also did a little breakdown of where is American women's tennis snapshot and I'm looking forward to doing it again later on this year because, so I'm gonna go back and listen to that previous episode because I think a lot of the things that you called the Anasumova out of nowhere, I feel like you mentioned last year that you were excited to see about her coming back and if she's healthy, can.

she can make a run at it and oh hell, she's four in the world, she's making a run at it. But yeah, it's exciting times, American tennis like crushing it right now on the women's side. yeah, it's quarterfinals on out at any of these major women's events. It's popcorn. One more thing, we've talked about these two tournaments kind of together, Beijing and Wuhan. The women play a bit of a more condensed schedule.

Torrey Hawkins (47:42.501)
the set.

Alvin Owusu (48:01.477)
with a few more masters events than the men have. But they go back to back on these Masters 1000s pretty often. Doha and Dubai are back to back. Indian Wells, Miami, obviously both genders back to back. Madrid and Rome, again, both genders back to back. then also same thing for wherever they are in Canada and then Cincinnati. But then this Beijing, thing again, it's back to back. So while it feels like a part of the season that is often slept on post US Open,

Torrey Hawkins (48:20.282)
and it doesn't have it.

Alvin Owusu (48:31.451)
It's still hot, it's still on and popping on the women's side. Coming off of the US Open, we worked really hard and then I went to Africa and then I came back and I'm like, all right, where are we in the tennis calendar? And she's like, it just won't stop, it won't stop. But it won't stop, then also, it can't stop, won't stop, but then also, I was like, oh, you settle in, oh, well, this has some good matches.

Torrey Hawkins (48:49.072)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't stop, won't stop. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (48:59.207)
Palolini's in the quarterfinals of another big event. All right, cool. Let's keep going. The women continue to create a fantastic product for us as fans to enjoy and talk about. So I'm a happy camper right now.

Torrey Hawkins (49:02.502)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (49:10.726)
Yep. I am too, Alvin. And you know, it's so much, I'm going to say the term distressing news. This has been a very great escape for me personally. You know, I make it a point to stay neutral in all things political, but I have to say the tennis has just been a great oasis away from some of the things going on. And just to be able to

I have a sense of normalcy in the sports world and it's just, it's just really, really good to see, not just because it's a, it's a distraction, so to speak, but it's also being, being the game that I love. is the quality has not been this good round for round match for match has not been as good in a long time there I say ever. And it's just really good to watch. mean, you got, you got some, you know, you got there, there are quality players.

that are just outside of being seeded that are dangerous to the person who is the seed. You know, you have low seeds that have worse draws, unfortunately, and they're the seeds, right? You've got top players that are number one in the world that have three icebergs in their way, on the way to where they're trying to go. And when has that happened, right? When has that happened that

Alvin Owusu (50:19.802)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (50:36.581)
Ooh, who's at her side of the drawing though? Where you're not thinking, oh, she'll pretty much take care of business here, buddy. You don't know. You know what I mean? And I think that's a great thing for the game. It's a great thing. As you mentioned for the product itself. I really feel like the timing is really, really well done for doing hats off to them on the scheduling. They were doing some of this stuff 10, 15 years ago, Alvin, when they were starting to make some of the changes on the tour to put some of these

to make it to where some of the girls could get, some of the ladies could get points quicker if they were that good. I think the men were still kind of stuck in this futures and challengers kind of a, kind of a, because there were just so many of them, right? They had to have a way of kind of sifting through all the players. mean, back in the row was playing a challenger, you know, two weeks ago. I mean, this guy's, you know, he let alone a tour event, a challenger, you know what mean? So, and the women have turned their challengers,

Alvin Owusu (51:12.39)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (51:26.737)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (51:34.666)
their challenges were high in futures for what the men had even years ago. And then they were getting more tour events in early and just the way the point system would go. I've heard some things back and forth after our last podcast about the tour and the events and the WTA and ATP might merge and I did that. They're having talks about it. I hope that they adopt the WTA's point system. And to your point, the back to back 1000s would actually help in my opinion.

And, we'll see, we'll see what that does to some of the unfortunate two 50s and five hundreds. You know, lot of two 50s and states that have gone away because of some of these five hundreds. But I really feel like there's there's a, there's a cleaner path to get to the product that you're looking for. If you went that route. And again, to me, I'm all for quality of tennis. So whatever that's going to do and can make the play we're seeing sustainable. I'm all for it.

Alvin Owusu (52:30.778)
Yeah, I think it's all about, we often talk about how many players should be able to earn a living while being a professional tennis player and my answer's always like, mean homeboy, this is an entertainment product. So it's really about what is the thing that we can put forth that people want to watch on television and people want to buy tickets to watch and can actually sustain the sport. maybe it's not 100, maybe it's fewer, but it's gonna be what it's gonna be, but I think.

Torrey Hawkins (52:50.296)
Right. Watch to support. 100%, 100%. Right.

Alvin Owusu (53:00.358)
specifically on the women's side, like anytime you get to the last three rounds in an event, you've got multiple Grand Slam champions having to go through each other to carry a trophy. In China, I think it's fantastic. It's in a great spot.

Torrey Hawkins (53:08.429)
Yes.

Torrey Hawkins (53:13.699)
Yeah. And great turnout that you saw the crowds like I did talk about great turnout. I mean, it was, uh, you know, and this is China. mean, you're thinking that, I mean, there was, looked like every seat in the house was, it was full. I mean, I'm like, I mean, very comparable of both sides. mean, very, you can almost kind of get a feel for watching the tournament all the way through. kind of see the crowd kind of get behind a certain player or not. And, and, and for, for them to get behind so many of the different players that were there. I mean, I thought the crowd was very even.

Alvin Owusu (53:17.115)
Yeah!

Alvin Owusu (53:35.93)
Sure, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (53:42.851)
for Coco and for Pagula. And I was just like, you know what? was just a very, you could tell there's fans like us all over the world. And that also was refreshing. You know what I mean? I've said it before, there's a whole lot more that we agree on that we disagree. And I think the world would be a better place if we focused on that a little more than elsewhere.

Alvin Owusu (54:02.822)
Absolutely.

Alvin Owusu (54:08.551)
And the world would also be a better place if all you people who are listening to this podcast and haven't subscribed go ahead and actually subscribe too. Cause I know the numbers. I know you're listening. I know you're out there. You just hit that, just smash that subscribe button. Okay. Do we do us a favor, do us a favor. And with, with that, I think we'll let's, let's put a pin in it. I think we, we had, we had fun, but that's another episode of the best of the podcast. I'm Alvin that's Tory. We are out.

Torrey Hawkins (54:12.611)
You

Torrey Hawkins (54:26.179)
Absolutely.