Ep. 71: WTA Top 25 of the 2000s Era: 10 – 6 -- The Vacuum Queens & Modern Giants

Alvin Owusu (00:00.806)
And welcome to another episode of the Best of Three podcast. I am still Alvin, that's still Tory. And we're back at it with our WTA talk. We're getting down towards the, we're in the top 10. We're in the top 10. So just a quick refresher for those of you who haven't been with us. I'm not gonna go through the entire list. I will leak the playlist or the...

videos that came before this of our list, but we have been going through the top 25 WTA players of the last 25 years, starting from the year 2000, going all the way through 2025, pretending like the only tennis that ever existed happened in these 25 years. We've had a lot of fun. The comment section over on YouTube has been, it's been on and popping, TH. It's been on and popping.

Torrey Hawkins (00:53.168)
I agree. Hopefully you'll be able to share some of these because I got to feel like this next this next segment it'll start getting a little dicey. You know what mean?

Alvin Owusu (01:02.35)
Yeah, this is where we might lose some followers, we might make some new friends, I don't know, I don't know how this is gonna go. But yeah, like I said, I'm not gonna run through the entire list that we've covered so far, but we've gone 25 all the way up through 11. So we are at number, we're hitting the top 10 right now. And I guess one refresher is we both made our lists separately, and we have not shared what is to come with one another. So we're revealing these live.

Live to you guys, live to each other. I do have one question for you though, TH. So in the last episode that we did here, I guess we finished up with number 10. I guess we actually did number 10, Kim Kleister. For me, Naomi Osaka for you. we had, there've been some kind of comments and pushback about, you know, where I think you went Ash Barty at 12, Kim Kleister at 11, Naomi Osaka at 10.

and I had, let's say, Naomi at 11, Kim right in front of her, and I had Ash a little bit higher. I think specifically there were some, people raised some questions, I'm gonna say questions in quotation marks here, questions around reasoning for Osaka above Kleister's for you. And usually I don't get very, I mean, we're in the weeds here talking about 10 and 11 versus 11 and 10.

Torrey Hawkins (02:12.304)
I like that. Questions?

Alvin Owusu (02:26.722)
But when I went through my own personal list, I remember drawing a pretty hard line at, you know, in between 10 and 11. Like, Kleister's felt like that was a different class when we started to get into, you know, that level of Grand Slam champion year, weeks at number one, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So help me, remind me, why did you have Naomi ahead of Kim?

Torrey Hawkins (02:50.927)
Great question. She's still playing. And she still has, in the grand scheme of things, a chance to still get one more. Clasters was done. I still feel Naomi could eke out one more if she continues on the trajectory she's been all year. It was a very, very close toss up for anybody who's watching knows that I, first of I love Kim Clasters' game. I met Kim on a few occasions. I think the world of her, just a wonderful person, let alone her game. But one reason.

Naomi still playing and still has a chance to improve her mark. That matter, I've got another lady in this next 10 through list that I think is still playing and she could get a bit higher. But currently, if I had to peg it right now, she's in that side of that top five tier and he's a current world number one and has been off and on for the better part of this year. So boiler alert, but just saying.

And why? Because I feel she's still playing and that's why I think she could still continue to move to the next echelon while she's not there currently as she could. So same reason.

Alvin Owusu (03:54.735)
Okay, so it's more of an interpretation of the exercise because I would, my pushback would be, okay, but we're going through the year 2025, the year is more or less over, she can't win anymore Grand Slams in this exercise. So it's done at done.

Torrey Hawkins (03:57.998)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (04:02.382)
Right, right, right. An interpretation, I like that an interpretation of the exercise and if there was a tie break, the tie break is she's still playing.

Alvin Owusu (04:16.94)
Okay, all right. I guess I can live with it. I don't really have much of a choice, so.

Torrey Hawkins (04:22.162)
And whether or not the listeners and viewers at large agree, hey, even better, you know what I mean? Let's say this, this is a good problem to have. Each one of these players are phenomenal in their own right. I'll be honest, Alvin, I had a hard time with Ash Barty. I I felt like she's a phenomenal player. I mean, was very tough for me to kind of come to terms with where she is with her greatness. She came at a tough

time and all of this, know, she was, know, both, you know, COVID was in the middle. There was so many different things when she was at her, at her level of greatness. just feel like, you know, some of the others were, were, they had to push through some of the other greats to get there. And that's, and that's another one that I think that we, you start looking at finals, start looking at impact down in the game. So I'm looking at that. There's a lot of, lot of factors that go into it and that, and that's not Asha's fault, right?

Alvin Owusu (05:10.776)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (05:16.416)
It's just she came into my opinion a bit more of a vacuum than she did the way around. So that's where it's tough for me.

Alvin Owusu (05:21.678)
No, that's fair. Let's go ahead and go. I wanna dig a little bit deeper on Ash because I think we already talked about her in the previous episode, but I've also got her at number eight, so we'll put that out there now. when I go back and think about it, there is that, okay, why did I have her at, let's say, eight and you had her down at 12? In this particular exercise, that's a pretty big swing in the view of where we put this player.

Torrey Hawkins (05:28.087)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (05:49.774)
I'm with you in the fact that once she did fill a vacuum and she didn't really have to go through anyone, she was in that post-Serena but pre-EGA arena space, not even having really to deal with Naomi all that much. But I think the biggest con for Ash is we're talking about not even four full years at the top of the game. 2019 she wins her first

Grand Slam, right? Grand Slam, she turned pro in 2011, right? Went away from the game 15, 16, came back, didn't do much of anything at the Slam level until 2019 wins her first Grand Slam at the French Open. Obviously 2020 was a mess and then picks up Wimbledon in 21, picks up Australia Open in 22 and then calls it. So we're talking a very small, they calls it, right? But.

Torrey Hawkins (06:44.556)
calls it. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (06:46.911)
That seems like it's a small window of dominance at the top of the game, as if, you know, she was on tour for, you know, better part of 11 years. So, but I think that the thing is though, she was dominant 120 plus weeks at number one. Like that is a, that's a big number. That's a, that's a real big number. There aren't.

Torrey Hawkins (07:04.855)
Yep. Yep. But the time frame still, Alvin, and I'm with you. And again, I'm not saying that it was, again, I take nothing from her. I take nothing from her. That's why she's as high as she is. But just saying. So again, I get it. I get it.

Alvin Owusu (07:19.181)
Okay, all right. So I realize, we tipped into, we covered number 10 already in the previous episode, but I had Kim Kleiser's, you had Naomi Osaka, we had them flip flop 10 and 11, I think that's why we covered 10 there. Number nine, who you got at number nine?

Torrey Hawkins (07:36.971)
Lindsey Dabinport.

Alvin Owusu (07:38.317)
So the Lindsay Davenport experience is interesting in, you go ahead because she's also in my top 10. So let's get into it.

Torrey Hawkins (07:51.18)
I want to say this at the beginning of this on the segue from Ash Barty. Similar number of grand slams. I feel like one of the things that pushed Lindsay over was the context, the gears, the overlap. The biggest context is the Williams sisters that she played both of, right? Or that for that entire, you know, late nineties, early 2000s decade, if you will, of tennis.

feel like she not only was her game that dominant, not only was she that good player, there was also several finals that she played in. I felt like her overall body of work was.

frankly, you know, should deserve should be deserved because top five comparatively, if you take out two or three players out of the top. But unfortunately, we have one or two at the very top that have just been, you know, leveled beyond in terms of their total bodywork. And so I felt like she not only needed to be mentioned, but I see just three slams. That's quite a few album. And if I'm not mistaken, I want to say she was in seven finals, if I'm not mistaken. that's that's that's quite a bit of it. So

Alvin Owusu (09:03.713)
Yeah, was four finals losses and three wins.

Torrey Hawkins (09:06.836)
Right. And so that you were, there are very few, if any, that have that many, that number of finals lost. And then one of the player who was a little higher in my trajectory has also had seven finals lost. And that's a, that's a big number. So to me, she was that relevant that much of a time. So that's my segue with Lindsey Davenport.

Alvin Owusu (09:27.533)
Okay, yeah, I'll even back you up there. just because I had, you have Lindsey at nine, I have her at seven. Like I feel like when we look at this exercise and her inclusion of this list maybe breaks one rule but then is furthered by what she did later on. So I would say her actual prime was 98 to 2001, right? She won three grand slams, finals, two slam finals in that period.

Torrey Hawkins (09:33.748)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (09:56.908)
I think the most interesting thing is like she made so many slam semi-finals. Like she made five US Open semi-finals. She made two at Wimbledon, at the French Open and then another three at the Australian Open outside of winning them, winning a few of those. And year end number one, I mean she had 98 weeks at number one. And like you said, it right alongside the Williams sisters coming of

Torrey Hawkins (10:01.183)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (10:26.474)
Correct.

Alvin Owusu (10:26.765)
becoming who they were. like they would, mean, Venus hit the tour in like 99, 2000, something like that. So Lindsay was right there and she was kind of the figurehead of what was then claimed as big babe tennis. And the Williams sisters both had to like go through and dethrone her to then go on and launch their own careers. And I think one of the things that gets a little lost in the sauce there is like, yeah, after 2000, which you say her prime kind of was in that space.

after she finaled the US Open there, she then battled back later on in her career, know, tacked on four more slam semi-finals and grand slams, but then got to two finals in 2005, like Australian Open and Wimbledon. So I think now you're looking at a body of work that, you know, breaks our rules a little bit by going into the late 90s, like 98 for her first slam win, right? You counted to Vratalova and maybe even Margaret Court, I don't know.

Torrey Hawkins (11:20.834)
I wanted to cut it

Alvin Owusu (11:23.957)
But so I'm going to give Lindsey, you know, an extra year or two there.

Torrey Hawkins (11:28.17)
I definitely didn't include Margaret Court. I wanted to. Her and Suzanne were in there, but I was like, let me hold off right here. Shout out to Yvonne Goulagang too, by the way. And Billie Cheffy.

Alvin Owusu (11:33.005)
Okay, a little Billie Jean, Billie Jean King would like a word as well. Because she's still around, she's still around, she's not playing, she's still around. But yeah, but Lindsay stretching all the way to 2005, like didn't, I mean from 97 to 2005, she made the semi-finals of a Grand Slam every single year. So like that's, that is something, that's actually a lot of something and that's why I have her.

Torrey Hawkins (11:42.409)
She's still around. She might play one more.

Torrey Hawkins (12:01.086)
don't know.

Alvin Owusu (12:02.016)
just a smidge higher at number seven. So we'll come back to that one later. Actually we can come back to it now because I had Ash Barty at eight, who we've talked about, Lindsey Davenport at seven, who we've talked about. Who do you have at number eight?

Torrey Hawkins (12:17.106)
Tina Higgis.

Alvin Owusu (12:19.358)
Ooh, Hingis at eight. Hingis at eight. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (12:24.489)
And I'll disclose seven if you want just while we're here. All right? Okay. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (12:27.754)
Well, before you do that, let me go back half a step, because I think this might actually touch your number seven. I kinda misread my own list. I have Arena Sabalink at number nine. Right. And that's your seven. And that's your seven. Okay, now you tell me, so I've got Hingis a little bit up, so why don't you let me know why you've got Arena ahead of Martina Hingis? Same reason.

Torrey Hawkins (12:40.165)
And that's myself.

Torrey Hawkins (12:53.684)
Same reason. Same reason. She can still, she's still playing and she could continue again, interpretation, whatever. I try to stay consistent throughout there. She had the ability to win one more. She obviously had just won this, this year's open and had been in three finals, Alvin. So again, you can't, you can't, she is establishing in my opinion, the

if you will, the Lindsay Davenport kind of body of work situation here where she's been in a lot of these finals. She's continued to be relevant all year and at her current trajectory, I could honestly see her doubling the current number she has right now. And I feel like that's not really overselling it. mean, four right now, you know, is and what I forgot how many finals. mean, let me look at my notes real quick. Is it three? Three. Or is it more than that?

Alvin Owusu (13:40.78)
She's lost in two, three. It's now, no, it's two. It's only two. She's lost to Coco in two finals. that's a lie. She lost to Madison earlier this year too. Okay, so it's three.

Torrey Hawkins (13:48.304)
Only on two of the finals. So I had two. didn't know if I...

Torrey Hawkins (13:56.885)
I thought it was one shot, bottom line, and that's end counting. And that's why I gave her that nod. Again, I thought Hingis was a phenomenal player. Hingis also came through a little bit in that tennis vacuum. The unfortunate time during the Williams sisters, sabbatical slash they were making purses and trying to establish some other careers during that time, showing up on the Cosby show and so on and so forth. I just feel like during that time and hats off to her, she absolutely knocked out the box.

And I'm a doubles player too, I might add. just feel like because of that, once they came back, he did not hold on to that same dominance. Again, that's where I had her and that's why I feel like she, that's why I put Arena just a tad bit over Martina.

Alvin Owusu (14:45.58)
Okay, and so this is where I'll push back. Even though we've gone through this interpretation of the exercise thing, I feel like the gap between them is quite large. Like it's quite large. And you talk about Martina doing a lot of her damage within a vacuum, I mean within this vacuum of tennis, right? Like kind of pre-Williams sisters, but kind of post-Graph and sell us is kind of where she racked up, right? Like, mean, 97, she wins her first grand slam. She wins three in 97, know, gets a, wins one in,

98 gets a final in 98 gets, you know, wins 199 final, two finals, two more finals in 99 and then one final each in 2000, 1000, 1002. Okay, so that's a lot in a six season period. Yeah, it's six seasons with five slam wins and seven finals, right? That's big old chunk, right? Along with 209 weeks at number one. So like even,

Torrey Hawkins (15:43.335)
And seven finals, I mean to your point.

Alvin Owusu (15:46.229)
Right, yeah, but even if you compare that to Irina Sabalenka, who's got four Grand Slam titles and three losses in finals and 60 weeks at number one, right, I feel like we're in different, like even different categories. And also, let's look, let me entertain this. Is Irina Sabalenka existing in somewhat of a vacuum right now?

with a lack of like truly dominant players. You would say she's probably the most dominant, but I think we both have her behind Eega, who is her contemporary, but they never even play in slam finals. They didn't even play in Grand Slams, rarely. So like.

Torrey Hawkins (16:25.095)
And whose fault is that?

Alvin Owusu (16:27.624)
I mean, you could, you could blame both of them. I think we both have Eega above Arena in this con- in this particular conversation, so...

It's closer for you than it is for me. Yeah, just don't.

Torrey Hawkins (16:41.479)
There you go. And I know you love, I know you love Hingis. And don't get me wrong. You know what my problem with Hingis was?

Alvin Owusu (16:50.166)
Please tell.

Torrey Hawkins (16:52.858)
I don't think Hingis would have had the same career length at Sellas continued. And I don't think when everything went down, when the Williams sisters showed up, she was rarely as dominant after that point in time. And that's, and I'm not here to lay shade or to do anything else. The reason why I put, and again, I in retrospect, wish I had to put Lindsay higher because I feel like just the total number of slams just weren't

Alvin Owusu (17:08.054)
Fair.

Torrey Hawkins (17:22.151)
quite high enough to justify it. However, she, to win them, but she was more relevant post the ascent of Venus and Serena. And mind you, Venus was more dominant early on, Alvin, as you know, maybe even Serena was in the early years. They had a bigger rivalry with each other than they had with Hengis. So to my recollection and to what my view of the stats were, now I say that to say, that is.

Alvin Owusu (17:23.286)
Sure, yeah. You have to win them.

Alvin Owusu (17:46.316)
That's correct.

Torrey Hawkins (17:50.124)
no slam on any of this, it's just to say why I didn't put her in it.

Alvin Owusu (17:55.883)
Yeah, it's just that I'm okay with it. I guess I'm okay with it. I I understand where you're coming from. had, know, I will go ahead and put that out there. I have Martina quite high, quite high. Maybe too high, but I have her quite high. And no, let's put it out there. I have her at number two. I have her at two. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (18:09.585)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (18:21.973)
Wow, that's hot.

Alvin Owusu (18:25.328)
It doesn't get much higher. If my math is right, there's only one pass number two. I just, have a, yeah, exactly, right. I just have a hard time overlooking, like you can only play against the players who are on the other side of the net, And the same thing we said about Ash Barty, right? But like Ash did it for not as long and wasn't

Torrey Hawkins (18:26.768)
Yeah, I think I know you're number one.

I think I know you're number one. At least a better base.

Torrey Hawkins (18:44.07)
No doubt, no doubt. And I hunt for simply, I'm with you on that.

Alvin Owusu (18:54.892)
as dominant. I really like when I look at the amount of finals and the Grand Slam performance from 97 all the way through 2002, yeah, the game changed on her. She hung, like she wasn't making finals and winning them, she was making semifinals and getting to the finals. Like she was still there. And yeah, the 200 weeks at number one, that's something like

Yeah, 97 to 99, like there was nobody else. Like it was, was her. It was all her. So take it all. Like take it all.

Torrey Hawkins (19:28.016)
Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. Hey, I am with you 100%.

Alvin Owusu (19:34.176)
I mean you're not, you got her at eight, I got her at two, so you're not with me 100%. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (19:36.869)
I'm with you in your line of thinking. I don't think she's that high. Alvin, we can agree to disagree, I mean, it's 100%. You mentioned a vacuum and I hear you on that. But my take on that vacuum is she's the Hoover in the situation. She's the Dyson. She is the Serena. So to your point about vacuum, I feel like she has ushered in her own era.

Alvin Owusu (19:47.126)
That's true, that's true.

Torrey Hawkins (20:06.968)
And she is that player to beat. She is that front runner. And every one of these girls are in a sense, the current girls I'm talking about, the Cocos, the, the Eagas. I hate to say it. Eaga to me is more of the Hingis of the current era where I feel personally that Arena is the Serena of the current era. And that being the case. Now you, may agree to scream me on that, but that's also why I put her in said, in said status.

Alvin Owusu (20:27.467)
Ugh.

Alvin Owusu (20:34.879)
Yeah, yeah, I'm, maybe I'm just fighting, I might be just fighting the urge to be a prisoner of the moment. Like I know what I'm, I know how I feel about Arina Svelinka, the tennis player. And I have, you know, stood with you screen by screen on this podcast, waxing poetic about her being the modern day version of Serena. But I also think that the modern day version of women's game doesn't really allow for the gap between, you know,

Torrey Hawkins (20:36.507)
And again, I really disagree. But that's why.

Torrey Hawkins (20:45.849)
Yeah. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (21:04.487)
the rest of them and that Serena quote unquote Serena type figure, which is why I have a tough time thinking that, thinking that Arena's actually going to double her slam count. Like does she finish with eight? Ugh, I don't know man. Like it's, that's tough. That's tough.

Torrey Hawkins (21:24.645)
How do you, how, let me, let me, let me push back on that. Tell me, tell me, current view in the moment. Tell me how many other players inside the top four, and you can arguably say those four have a pretty good chance at each at winning at least one more.

Alvin Owusu (21:27.829)
Please.

Alvin Owusu (21:33.151)
Yeah?

Torrey Hawkins (21:49.199)
Does she match up well to the other three?

Alvin Owusu (21:53.868)
Sure, I mean we're talking about Eega, we're talking about Coco, we're talking about who's in top four, Anna Samova, mean, Pagula's right around there, like, I mean, Miria Andreeva's on her way, I don't necessarily consider, not yet, not yet, those four are the top four. Yeah, those four are the top four. But I think it's the...

Torrey Hawkins (22:09.06)
On her way, don't think she's top four yet. And I love Mira. I'm just mentioning those four are the top four. Does she do well with those on almost every surface? Is there a bad match here and there for sure? Has she consistently been doing the work this year? And in my opinion, this year, she was a little bit slim on slams.

But she still continued to get results after results and almost every tournament she played. So to me, that says not just durability, not just consistency across surfaces and different slams. The few she got beat by, the few she got beat by, she has good records against those same players and other times. So to say she won't win.

And I'm only protracting her career out another three or four years. So I think it's very likely she could win one for the next four years. I think she could win more than that, to be honest with you. I'm just being conservative because I think she could win two in a given year. And that would also alter some of those standings.

Alvin Owusu (23:18.249)
Yeah, I mean that's the thing though, right? So even if you look at just this year, two finals, one semi, one win in Grand Slams, right? And she's world number one, like 60 weeks now and counting over her career. So the loss against Madison, I'm willing to throw that one out. Madison played a match and tournament of her life, right? So let's, no one was beating Madison. Obviously no one was beating Madison that tournament. She beat everybody.

Torrey Hawkins (23:27.918)
Mm-hmm. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (23:47.211)
the match against Coco. Coco's beaten her twice in Slam Finals now, right? So like that's not nothing. That's not nothing. Yep, that's a real problem, right? Okay. She loses to Anna Samova at Wimbledon and then comes back and beats her again in the, avenge that loss at US Open. So it's not any one player that is my concern. It's the fact that I believe in that top five.

there are players that can hurt her. There are players that can beat her. And also given the format of the women's game, right? Grand slams are the same as the Masters 1000, effectively, like we're doing the same thing. You're every other day until the back of the tournament. I think that's why Jessica Bagula now is able to pick up wins against her. She doesn't scare her anymore. And I think that's the, that is my, it's the field that I'm concerned about. It's not her.

Torrey Hawkins (24:28.215)
Yeah. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (24:45.861)
one slam a year for the next four years. Okay, maybe that's possible. That doesn't seem out of that. That seems fair. And she could get two at a year, right? I could see her winning Australian and then maybe picking up.

Torrey Hawkins (24:57.059)
could see her winning two in a year more than I could see her career lasting for the next four to be honest. mean, I don't know how old how old arena is she's got it. What is she 2026? Right. So to my point, and that that and that's where I'm at. And again, I'll and again, I'm not here to

Alvin Owusu (25:06.379)
Probably 20, it's like 25, 26, something like that.

Alvin Owusu (25:14.475)
She's 27. She's 27. She's 27.

Torrey Hawkins (25:18.163)
Which tells me another reason why I could see it more likely she putting two in a year than she putting going to the next four. But I still don't see her being outside of that number. And I'm saying doubled is a possibility. I'm standing by that number, but I'm also standing by pretty good possibility. It's a possibility for her to win three. Just all things being considered. I'm saying, I'm just telling you, just because.

Alvin Owusu (25:20.884)
close.

Alvin Owusu (25:41.291)
Wait, in a year or total?

Torrey Hawkins (25:45.844)
that she has been in three other finals. So it's not like she hasn't been in at the scene. That's all I'm telling you. If this were a situation where like early days Nadal where she wasn't even getting close to the US, you can write that off. She was just good and on the dirt. I could see that. Again, if we were early days, know, early 2000s, mid 2000s, said, mid to late 2000s Nadal before he actually proved he went on hardcore.

Alvin Owusu (25:50.911)
Yeah, okay.

Torrey Hawkins (26:11.693)
She has done well on each surface. That's all I'm trying to say. So I'm just mentioning to you, I see her having an issue with a match up or health as a possible derail of the eight, then I see it being the surface. But that's a huge thing. She brings her own game. She doesn't need a match up. She is the match up, right? And yes, Coco is starting to...

Alvin Owusu (26:31.4)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (26:40.246)
find her footing and looks great. think Bagula will always be a thorn in her side at to some level, but I don't think JPEG has got the overall game to beat Arena when Arena's playing her absolute best. I feel like it is, it could go a tough third, but I just feel on paper. would take, I would take, if I'm not betting man, but I would take Arena in that matchup. And you look at the other ones she lost to.

I don't see Madison returning to quite the same top form as much as I was happy for her to win one for herself. So I'm looking at, I don't think Iga is as big of a threat as she used to be. So it's gonna be someone else. It's gonna be someone else who's gonna sneak in. It could be Amira. It could be an Emma Navarro who comes out of nowhere and has just the term of her life and dethrones and just kinda didn't see her coming and didn't realize how good of a It could be Amanda.

It's going to be a situation where they're going to have to come for her. She's going to do her thing. And at each of these tournaments, Alvin, she has held up her end of the bargain. She's gotten beat by a player who just flat out beat her at that moment. But she has done it all year long. So I just feel like she's committed to her fitness and her team. She's committed to changing things in her game. Game's technically sound. She's playing high percentage aggressive tennis. We already know she has the weapons.

Alvin Owusu (27:43.338)
She'll show up.

Torrey Hawkins (28:07.228)
There's not much of weakness. The biggest weakness was here. She's fixing slash has fixed that. He's got slams to her credit. I mean, she's only going to get more comfortable. So that's all.

Alvin Owusu (28:16.894)
Yeah, the one thing that I do have to, I think we should bring up is I do have a personal belief in the three year peak. I feel like most players hit, they have this peak of three years, they lead up to it, they hit that peak for three years and then they start to come down. If you look at it, you can make an argument that she probably has peaked. She's at the right age, she's had three the three shit years in which she's won at least one Grand Slam.

Torrey Hawkins (28:27.809)
agree with that.

Alvin Owusu (28:46.634)
saw the finals of three of the Grand Slams this year. And she is 27, so at some point it does have to tail. Let's say it's maybe she has two years left. Two years left. But at some point something's gotta, but I think to her credit though, that's one thing that she doesn't do, is she doesn't lose the chumps at Grand Slams. She's gonna be in there the last two days of the slam, she's going to be, it's gonna take one of the top players to beat her.

She's not gonna lose, I mean hell, she hasn't lost before the quarterfinals in a grand slam since like, know, 2022. So that was the French Open. like, yeah, that's an interesting one. I mean, we've spent a lot of time, I figured this was gonna happen because she is a current player. But yeah, this is interesting to watch. It's outside of this exercise, but it is.

Torrey Hawkins (29:34.752)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (29:44.178)
It is interesting. I can't believe you have Hingis that low. Okay. All right. We've already covered my number seven, which was Lindsey Davenport. Who do you have at number seven?

Torrey Hawkins (29:54.416)
so we are we are covered. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (29:55.219)
you had a read it, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well then let's get into it then. Number six.

I've got Maria Sharapova.

Torrey Hawkins (30:07.776)
Yeah, think you put her way too low. That's another talk show.

Alvin Owusu (30:12.264)
No, it's this talk show. is literally, this is the talk show. It's this talk show.

Torrey Hawkins (30:18.93)
And that was a tough one for me. The six versus the four is what it came down to. It is what it is. And I feel like

Full disclosure, I don't, I see her winning one, maybe two, max going forward. I feel like she's that player that needs some help in the draw given the other two. I just don't like the matchup that is continuing to happen between the other three. I see it more likely for Amanda to knock her off. I see it more likely for another player coming from outside of the top four.

knocking off and I see her knocking off the other three to me on that top four. She's fourth in the court of public opinion. I think but her six you just actually can't both current. So there was a tiebreaker was their slams was my was my rationale. That's what I had to go with.

Alvin Owusu (31:13.434)
And also, then I've got her, yeah, and also.

Torrey Hawkins (31:15.932)
and a darn good player. Let me not forget to mention that part in there.

Alvin Owusu (31:20.68)
And also 125 weeks in number one. we're not, let's not just talk about right now, right? Because obviously, Arena's the number one player in the world right now, but before Arena, it was two straight years, almost two and a half straight years of EGA dominance. And you you could make the argument that was off the back of, know, French Open dominance, but you know, she did win a US Open pretty early on. And outside of those...

Torrey Hawkins (31:44.32)
Yep. And one of the women this year.

Alvin Owusu (31:47.196)
in one Wimbledon this year, right? she's shown the ability to win on all surfaces. Even this year, which some would consider a, I mean, it wasn't a down year. I think she had a pretty good year. She lost to an on fire Madison Keys at the Oshawaite Open. She lost to Arena in a fantastic match at the French Open. Juan Wimbledon, yeah. Yeah, and then wins Wimbledon and then loses in the.

Torrey Hawkins (31:48.842)
Yeah. Yeah, all four.

Torrey Hawkins (32:07.197)
Yeah, really, really good match. Match the tournament in my opinion. No offense to Coco.

Alvin Owusu (32:15.689)
quarterfinals to, who did she lose to in the US Open? it, it, she lost to, was Jessie? She lost to Pagula? Maybe, I'll look it up later. It's not overly relevant right now. But yeah, that's, and that's why I've got her just a little bit higher than you have her. But, so we can, can, we can.

Torrey Hawkins (32:26.355)
Remember, like a.

Alvin Owusu (32:42.493)
I think the EGA conversation is interesting because she's also three years younger than Arena. That's the part that I, like when we go outside of this.

Torrey Hawkins (32:49.083)
And, and ascended to the top a bit faster as, as that type often does, uh, you know, again, we're talking Hingis to the same, or I think in a lot of ways you can say Ash Pardons to the same, uh, and they're that type, that style, I think does that. And I personally think, and I agree with you, that type tends to have that closer to that three year window. And that unfortunate doesn't bode well for EGAs future. If you're talking about the three year.

Alvin Owusu (32:53.586)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (33:16.959)
span because that may have now happened. However, I think she's just, I she's gonna continue to bring some nuances and bring some things to her game. She's too competitive not to keep working on her package and her arsenal of weapons. What she did that was so impressed with me this year, Alvin, was I thought she was going away. She had a bit of a losing streak going into some of these tournaments. She kind of fell out of the top three or four for having been a Grand Slam champion.

And she literally picked herself up and willed herself back into the top four, not only relevant and not only winning Wimbledon, but did so not having the best of that. She had some clay courts here that wasn't the best for her to be the so good on clay. And then she played the match of the tournament of her life at the French and played great. And I was like, wow, I had not seen her play that well before.

I personally, she actually played a little better than the French that she did Wimbledon and she won Wimbledon. I just say it to say, you know, obviously she knows how to play on the grass. Her returns are just deadly. I mean, she, by the time you've landed from your serve, the return is on your shoe. I mean, she just, she has some of the best timing and returns that we've ever seen. But to your point, feel like that through your window is what's going to, may apply to her just as well.

Alvin Owusu (34:15.279)
Right, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (34:38.249)
Okay, yeah, and she hasn't really had that, like, I mean, when you say, what was her best, even what was her best year? It's like, I guess, maybe 2022, she won two Grand Slams, she won French, US Open that year, and semi-final showing up. Okay, but all the other years, she, well, yeah, that's a fantastic year, but all the other years where she won the French Open, she didn't really do much else at the other slams. So, like, this year, two semi-finals and then winning one Grand Slam, that's actually,

Torrey Hawkins (34:54.179)
Pretty good, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (35:08.019)
her second best year she's ever had on tour, right? It's just now she has a true, like there's someone else that is also producing at a high level to push her out of that number one spot. I think maybe this is another exercise in vacuum, right? Like what the post-Sarena world lives us with, you know, maybe there will be no dominant player for more than a season because they all have the ability to, you know, close that gap so quickly, change things up.

Yeah, that's an interesting one. It's an interesting one. And now that I'm looking at this pair, my five and six, between Eega, actually, we take a break here? You think we should take a break?

Torrey Hawkins (35:52.263)
Only up to you.

Alvin Owusu (35:53.982)
Yeah, let's take a break before we get into before we get too far especially into your number five actually, okay, let's talk about No, let's not talk about Maria Sharapova. I think we're gonna talk about Maria Sharapova After maybe in the next episode, I don't know. We'll take it We'll take a break here and then we'll come back and we'll we'll talk about that at another time. I think yeah

Torrey Hawkins (36:14.119)
Done. Done and done.