Jannik Sinner and the New Tactical Standard in Men’s Tennis

Alvin Owusu (00:00.968)
And welcome to another episode of the best three podcasts. I'm Alvin, that's Tory and winner winner center dinner. Mr. Yannick center is your first sunshine slam double winner since 2017, almost 10 years. Mr. Roger Federer was the last to accomplish that on the men's side. We have this thing where arena and

Torrey Hawkins (00:01.121)
huh.

Torrey Hawkins (00:07.909)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (00:15.312)
Yeah, in about 10 years. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (00:29.718)
Yannick seemed to go, anything you can do, I can do better, and it's kind of cool. Really, really kind of cool. But before we get started, we'll talk about Center, probably a decent bit, and then bounce around the men's tour and capture our thoughts on the first quarter of the year as it comes to a close here. And we are officially heading over to the clay court. But before we do that, TH, how you doing?

Torrey Hawkins (00:53.968)
I'm good Alvin. I'm good. It was a good tournament. Shout out to James Blake. Jimmy B did a great job as tournament director. I thought the whole tournament went off. Obviously, Miami, you're going to get some rain and had it tonight as well. And I thought they did a nice job of trying to work their way through the South Florida weather as they could. And I thought it was a, did a nice job, had a lot of big names, had a lot of, know, I'm going to say

some surprises on both sides of the draw. The fact that they pull that whole thing off in Miami Stadium, you know, situation is phenomenal to me. But bottom line, it was a good, it was a good, whatever it is, 10 days, 12 days, the term is. It's a long time, both for these darn Masters, 1000s, like, you know, like the Sunshine Dublin. And I'll, I'll be honest, I thought it was a treat. And I always think, I always think it's a very good.

Alvin Owusu (01:37.326)
12 days, two weeks, a fort, I don't know, it's a long tournament.

Torrey Hawkins (01:53.296)
It's a very good kind of, as you call it, putting a pin in the hard court season, right? For going back in, I wish it were later. wish it, the tennis commissioner and me wishes it would all be part of a certain season, but it works. It is what it is. And quite frankly, this year's iteration was phenomenal in my opinion. So.

Alvin Owusu (02:00.009)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (02:16.181)
Yeah, and it seems like it doesn't really matter where you put this tournament. If it's on hardcore, it feels like Yannick's coming for it. It does kind of irk me a little bit. Like I feel like we should be leading up to something. Miami has its own history, know, not just this location, but the keep us game location primarily, but it is what it is. We start with a grand slam. We end with a couple of masters.

Torrey Hawkins (02:28.238)
Right. does.

Torrey Hawkins (02:37.36)
Right, you start and finish with 1000s, right? Where most of them you start with a few 500s, go up to 1000, then you end up with a... It is what it I remember going back to way back when it was the Lipton, my first time being there, it was the NASDAQ, you know what I mean? Early 2000s and obviously it's been Miami Open for the last several years. But it's really a good, it's a great tournament. you know, I'm...

Alvin Owusu (02:43.852)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (03:03.472)
I feel like they continue to keep it relevant. It's in a great location at the Hard Rock Stadium, but more importantly, I feel like this year's iteration was slam packed with a lot of storylines. I know you are a big storyline kind of guy, but we were treated today. I was trying to find the Italian version of Claude. I was in the bracket.

And the nearest that, you know, Siri would give me is Claudio. So my new name for Yannick Center is Claudio because he seems like he is a learning AI with the tennis racket, with the head speed, you know, graphene, MP, whatever spec of that head he's got because there's his super computers learning how to play you.

in match about as fast as any other supercomputer I've ever seen and I don't want to make light of his progress. He's human like the rest of us but I have to say there are times he doesn't look so human and it's not to say that his any I don't want to take anything away from what he's earned and what the level he has risen to but you heard right here Alvin at some times if I'm the opponent I am darn near

I am darn near, I'm not even frustrated. I am, I'm fighting for dear life and I'm playing well and I'm trying to lose respectably. There was a point at which Yuri hit, I think the players call it a dang these days where they take the reverse overhead. You have to be good enough to miss a dang and look good doing it like it's a shot you actually have.

and not look like you've never seen it before in a losing effort. I mean, that's what we're talking about. You have to look like you know what you're doing in a losing effort going away. And that's how bad the situation is. It's just like, you know, it's just the pressure, the points, the depth, the returns, the serves are just taking over at every point. I was a big Star Trek fan years and years ago.

Torrey Hawkins (05:25.144)
and he's like the boar. It's like at every time they just, they match your every move. There's nothing that you can do. And again, hope for a bad day, hope for some hot temperatures, something. I know we'll get into the matches, but overall, and I want to give him his full props. Congratulations on the sunshine double, but he is raising a bar pretty darn high. And I want to put this back in your court before I hand it off back to you.

Your favorite term is a certain profile that, right? And he is making the profile that is possible to beat him even smaller or even more inopportune. So you're going to have to create a way. And I say create, you know, because you don't necessarily develop this. Every way you play, he's got you. So you're going to have to find a new way, a new tactic.

The basic styles, no, throw them out because he's so good at throws, he's looking for you. You know what I mean? And I wanna, with that, wanna throw it back to you.

Alvin Owusu (06:34.989)
Yeah, so from a standpoint of like, I can kind take this in a few different directions, but Janek, not to be hyperbolic, right, but he is doing everything that you would ask out of a tennis player at about a nine out of 10 right now. Obviously he is beatable, right? This month, no, but prior to this month, he did lose in the semifinals, the Australian Open, right, that did happen. He did lose early in Doha.

Don't forget, Mincic did beat him. It can happen. does take a couple of, one, need the, yeah, do need the right level, and then you need to have that level be firing in all cylinders on that day. And you need a little dip. You need a little dip there. That scenario happens to all players in a myriad of situations.

Torrey Hawkins (07:05.872)
All right.

Torrey Hawkins (07:11.8)
Other world. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (07:19.024)
And you need him down a court low, just a court low.

Alvin Owusu (07:34.082)
Yannick right now, it's like the profile. Let's start there, right? If we were going to put together the profile of the player that beats him. I think you look at someone like a Mensic, right? Even take a look at what Lahechka tried to do today. And you take a look at, let's think about some matches that haven't gone so well, right? Basically, you have to serve big.

and you have to hit spots. And this is something that I've become so impressed with Janik. Janik is, when you look, and I'm give you this player, when you look at the two of them, you're gonna go, what the hell are you talking about? But when you start to look at the numbers, Janik Sinner is serving like a modern day Pete Sampras. When he is down love 40 on his serve, you just know three first serves are coming in, and they're not just gonna be in with pace.

He hits spots as well as anyone else in the tour. Novak has gotten to this point in his career, being able to spot serve as well, but Yannick can spot serve with pace and he's done it. He's been able to harness that ability at a much younger age. mean, this is something that you've seen from him has gotten better, markedly better, even since the US Open of last year when he had to tinker with the serve a little bit, had to dial it in.

Torrey Hawkins (08:57.488)
I Since Australia in January, Alvin, it's gotten better. I mean...

Alvin Owusu (09:02.591)
Yeah, mean, some of them weren't there when he needed them in Australia, but...

Torrey Hawkins (09:06.448)
But he did play the best returner of all time in one of back joke of it. So a previous version of AI, you know what I mean? I might add. So, you know, this is now Claudio and, you know, chat chat Novak PT. I mean, I'm just saying, we're talking about the highest level of returners in the game and he serves. I take the Pete Sampras. They mentioned that they had a

Alvin Owusu (09:10.837)
Right. And had chances.

Right.

Torrey Hawkins (09:32.248)
a storyboard up there as well that they mentioned it was Pete and I think they mentioned Roger both and I think he's serving at a level compared to both of them. It's a difficult comparison for the purist in me because their games are so different, but spot on comparison in terms of serving, holding serve, hitting spots. So I take that very well. would even tell you, I would even put in a few other players in that that served very efficiently.

Alvin Owusu (09:45.739)
Yeah, and that's why I say it looks...

Torrey Hawkins (10:01.052)
and, and, and didn't really get broken that all that often. And, know, and I say that to say, totally agree with you. And while he's not, well, he doesn't have a howitzer. He doesn't need one because his darn is just so accurate.

Alvin Owusu (10:13.229)
Well, that's the thing. That's why I give him the the Sampras and even the Fed comp and that they weren't as a sample is probably a bigger server than Fed, but there were bigger servers, but not better servers. It's the pace versus precision conversation like Yannick can do a lot with a 125 serve. I saw Yuri hit a 135 early in the match and Yannick put that damn thing like

Torrey Hawkins (10:26.788)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (10:43.053)
four inches from the baseline in the middle of the court. the heat is not the, the heat's not everything. It's the placement of the heat. Cause all of these guys can get a stick on it. If you, if you put it in the, if you put it in the, in the, in the shot radius there, yeah, they can all get a stick on it. And with these, with the, with, you know, advancements in racket technology and string technology, they take a step back, they can actually take a cut at it. And.

Torrey Hawkins (11:05.08)
Phenomenal hands and feet and head.

Alvin Owusu (11:06.797)
Right, yeah, you're almost worse off going 135, you know, right to the slot. I'd rather you go, you know, 117 and put it out here. And that's what Yannick's doing. He is mastering precision without sacrificing the pace. And you see the guys that he is above, they know the ATP has this composite score for servers and it takes together, it's this.

It's a rating and it's a combination of like first serve percentages points one off first serve second serve percentage, yada yada yada so on Composite the whole thing throw it all together put it in a blender and he's he's number one. He's also number one in returning as well So that just kind of shows you goes to show what it takes what it's gonna take on any given day to disrupt him You need a little different him like any other player but then you've got to you've got to force the force the issue and I kind of takes me back to

Torrey Hawkins (11:41.264)
Holds.

Alvin Owusu (12:03.454)
US Open final against Carlos and we talked about it for that match how Carlos was coming in off of balls that didn't even look like he could be coming in off of it. I he was willing to sacrifice quality of approach shot for presence at being at the net. It's like my best bet is to not get into one of these side to side pong rallies with this guy and use variety and that means ball shape, ball spin, like he used the slice a lot.

and then get in behind it as well. I'm gonna say, you saw Laheska trying to do the same thing today, and it's like, yeah, you just gotta, you can't, you're not going to win from back here. You're going to have to do something else. Maybe there's two other players in the world who can beat him from back there, one being Carlos, one being Novak, maybe, maybe, even Carlos isn't doing that.

Torrey Hawkins (12:34.8)
Go ahead.

Torrey Hawkins (12:53.168)
No, I don't think so. I don't think you're gonna beat him. Let me, because I like I cut you off twice. There are two decisive ways to beat him from the back of the court. You have to change direction first before he does. And you have to give him less pace. I am convinced, Alvin, that there's a third way, but it's more nuanced and it doesn't get you very far.

Alvin Owusu (13:22.732)
All right, let's start with the first one.

Torrey Hawkins (13:23.032)
and then through it, okay? First way, redirect first. You have to go redirect, big shot, corner. He's human for about a second. You better connect and you better connect well. Go behind him, go in front of doesn't matter. But you better move him to the outer, not even the outer thirds, Alvin, the outer two feet of the court to stretch him.

Alvin Owusu (13:51.072)
Yeah, get a foot in the alley.

Torrey Hawkins (13:52.418)
out wide. You've got to, if you're not a racket length from the alley on either side, off of the first strike, you're in trouble and you need a serve that gives you that ball. Number one, redirect. Number two, you better come in on the second strike on the follow-up, the plus two, because only then is he on the run enough, moving enough, ball's low enough, preferably even a shorter ball. You mentioned Fed.

Alvin Owusu (14:12.278)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (14:22.308)
Fed had this ability, Alvin, to hit a short slice on the backhand cross. He would draw you in enough that you would either have to go heavy cross back to buy time to go back, and of course he would go line, but he's moving you backwards. If you were dumb enough to go line, he went behind you or cross court in front of you, and he came and he passed you. He put you in this very tough triple threat kind of position that it was really...

Alvin Owusu (14:36.908)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (14:50.0)
You know, it was really the Bermuda Triangle. What are you going to do? You know, and if you didn't have, there's only a few shots. I remember when I was working with Sco, I said, Sco, I've broken this thing down. It's like Rubik's cube. You have to go back hard angle. I said, nobody does it because it's too high risk. I said, but he has you all the other ways. And when Sco played him in 07, Sco had a couple of good points against him off this very rally. And I remember Fed looked over at him when he pulled that play, like, like no one does that to me. And I'm looking over like, yeah.

because nothing else works. know what I'm saying? Well, I say it to say, and know, unfortunately, Scoke was the 0-4 on breakpoint opportunities in that match, and Fed was three of the four breakpoints he had against Scoke, but I say it to say, not that he was gonna beat Fed that day, but he was close enough, it was only a few breaks of serve in that three best of five-set match. The point I'm getting at is you have to look at what a guy does and throw everything else out the window. If you're not gonna go open court,

Alvin Owusu (15:21.292)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (15:48.226)
If you're not going to come forward within the first three to five shots, you can't come in on ball two. He passes too well, but you better get in on ball three through five fairly soon. And I want to give a tip. My cap to Sasha's there for trying this in the opening several few games. He got a little bit away from it midway through the first, but it was working and he did a little bit of it in the second and he was holding serve. The problem is Alvin and I want to go back and recap all three points.

You get to a point where you start to feel it by going big and you think that big is the same as wide or big is the same as I'm hurting him. You're not hurting him. You're only hurting him if you go wide. And so the problem is when you start going bigger, you don't hit it as wide. Yannick Claudio Center loves the pace and will hurt you off your own pace before you hurt him. And that's the issue. So back to my point. You got it.

You gotta move him early, redirect early. You gotta come forward between ball three through five. Okay? And you gotta find a way to either off pace him and make him create the pace. And then when he lull, you lull him to sleep for a ball or two, you can't do that for long. Then you sting him and either redirect or try to get him behind it. Yuri Latch did it a couple of times. Sasha did it a few times. Otherwise you...

you get into the rhythm rally and I'm convinced there's nobody.

Alvin Owusu (17:18.124)
And so the kicker there is like, and I like the way that you laid that out, so just for quick review, right, you've gotta go behind, you've gotta change directions early, that's one. Two, you've got to, the third one, actually I like the third one a lot as far as you have to use shape. You have to take the pace off a bit, because he just tunes into it. And then that third one was coming in on, you have to come in, you have to create opportunities to come in.

And this is the, you can't just do one of them. Unfortunately, you have to do all of them, right? You have to do all of them and you have to take advantage of any one of those three tactics. multi, like you might need all three within one game, right? And that's why the, right. Yeah, true, true. And that's why it is, I mean, that's why he is what he is, right? It's a very difficult task to even grasp even more difficult.

Torrey Hawkins (18:04.43)
Well, boy!

Alvin Owusu (18:16.427)
to pull off and I remember Deminor, he said it well and I think it covers a lot of players on the tour. It's like these two players, Carlos and Yannick, force you to raise your risk profile so much and play in red, effectively red line, right? Because if you aren't, let's say, we're not saying take pace off the ball. We are talking about pace of a different style, right? As opposed to trying to go through.

you're gonna need to go up and out of the court. That is not a hit that same ball with less pace. It is hit a different ball well, right? And for you to go behind him early or go change directions early, you need to hit a serve that puts you in a position to change directions early, right? My case in point from earlier, like Lahatchee goes 135, boom, but it's back on his toes. I'm sorry, he's not changing directions on that ball.

Torrey Hawkins (19:06.202)
Thank you.

Alvin Owusu (19:15.243)
He lost the point in the very next shot. Not only did he not change directions, it didn't work out for him. So it's a high bar. It's a high bar, right? But you've seen, we were talking earlier about the match with Sasha, right? So very interesting in that the same way we talked about Fonseca getting a chance to play center and then Alcara is kind of back to back, right? You get to see, when you see the same player play

Torrey Hawkins (19:15.568)
It worked.

Alvin Owusu (19:44.33)
two guys pretty close to one another, you can see the differences. Fonseca didn't change much between those matches, but you can see the differences between the opponents. Carlos has had the, I mean, sorry, Carlos. Zverev has had the opportunity to play in his last three tournaments that he has played. Played Carlos, played center last, weeks ago in Indian Wells, played center two days ago in Miami, tried something different against center in Indian Wells.

Torrey Hawkins (19:58.906)
Yeah. Multiple times. Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (20:09.562)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (20:13.811)
It didn't go, tried to, he tried to rip, right? He tried to rip. He, he redlined, he tried to redline early, hit himself right out of the match, right? Today, or two matches ago, two days ago, he brought back some of his regular standard ball, but took a different approach to playing baseline tennis. He started upping his risk profile just enough, taking a little bit of, of,

a little bit of game plan one, which is to change directions a little bit earlier, use a lot of game plan to come in behind that ball, even on balls that don't scream, come in behind this one. You just gotta do it because your other option is not gonna work. Not gonna work. Not gonna work.

Torrey Hawkins (20:57.648)
Not viable, not viable. I would even say that Sasha's did one more thing, which I loved. Anytime he had a routine ball, he went hard middle. He didn't go so much wide cross, wide across, because once you get, once you get center into the out wide shooter type cross court rally, his redirect, his is almost, that's why I'm calling Claudio AI with the racket, because it's just, it's just so fine tuned. No one does it better.

you're better off bringing him inside. I'm not talking middle cross, I'm talking dead middle, as if you were to put a three point line, so to speak, the top of the key in basketball terms, baseline. That ball had better be in that center area because he is vulnerable to the occasional on the rise ball that hits too early, especially if it goes deep or if it goes slow. So either the two are tough to time and he's so good at.

doing it out wide, he was early, it goes wider than he wants, which is not bad. But when it goes middle, early is out off either side, backhand or forehand. And I thought Sasha did a great job of that. And he did a great job of going out wide, big, and coming in early. He did a great job of going short, low volley, not giving him a deep volley, let him run down one more pass. He did a great job hitting that hard ball. At times I felt he got away from it. I'll see how well it was.

three and six, whatever, he did, he was right there. He was right there. I felt like if he could have gotten through that breaker, he had a chance in that match because he was starting to find his way a little bit. When to do what, right? But again, unfortunately, I want to go back to a match he played with Elliott Spazier. And we know that match, we talked about it. I'm going back, know, it feels like forever, though. the third round, but whatever it was, it was a while back.

Alvin Owusu (22:40.194)
gosh. Second, second round. That second round. I'll show you it open. The second round.

Torrey Hawkins (22:50.288)
What strikes me now, and you did it a couple of times on a few roles, the pace isn't there. Alvin, you've played matches like this, I've played matches like this, I know we both coach players like this. The guy comes out, your guy comes out playing a seed, right? He's a little conservative, he's rolling balls. A seed isn't as comfortable tagging, attacking, they're more of a counterpunisher, right? You know, I love that term. But they're not ready.

Alvin Owusu (23:10.027)
Hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (23:20.132)
willing or tuned enough to out hit them with the step up. Okay. They miss hit a couple. Okay. Our player, right, starts to go a little bigger. They're starting to feel themselves. They're starting to hold their, right? What do you do? What do I do? What does our, what do our players do? They start going bigger. And what ends up happening Alvin? The seed shows you he's the seed and or she, and they start ripping you a new one.

Alvin Owusu (23:33.493)
Try to fill yourself a little bit.

Torrey Hawkins (23:49.688)
because you gave them the gasoline that they'd been looking for to hurt you with. And that's happened with Yuri Lahashka today. While the serves were big, he was doing great with that corner. His normal ball ain't that big. He's just so solid and so deep and so precise. And when he started going a little bigger, Alvin, aside from the serve, which has to be big enough or you get crushed, but I felt like the bigger he went, the worse it went for him. And I felt like that was, I'm like,

Alvin Owusu (23:54.315)
And there's value there.

Torrey Hawkins (24:18.746)
Don't go big. You're giving him what he wants. it's hard to say. So I reference Elliott Spazeri because Elliott's ball's only so big. And Elliott couldn't hit bigger if he wanted to, which is why the match was so close. And of course, the heat and the roof and all that. But Elliott's ball was just juicy enough that Yannick had to go for it. And his game is so much higher, he had to be the attacker. He's not a comfortable attacker off of an 85.

Alvin Owusu (24:22.666)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:48.154)
deep ball and Elliott's fast and Elliott became Yanuk and that's a very rare profile you need to take you need to have him two courts low and 85, 90 degree weather 90 humidity you get my point I'm not saying that's the that's the way to beat him what I'm saying is that's why Elliott Spazeri had his chances his ball wasn't as fast and I just want to kind of mention those things that's that fourth way was talking about that's kind of nuanced but

Alvin Owusu (24:57.011)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (25:15.938)
It works because he's not as comfortable, but unfortunately, what do our players do? What would you and I do? We try to go bigger, thinking we're warming up. And unfortunately, as to our demand.

Alvin Owusu (25:24.299)
Yeah, well, it's also de facto, like Elliot didn't really have a top gear. Like he doesn't really have anything past that. He's got his brains, he's got his feet, and he can use those in combination to, well, we saw what happened, right? It got away from him a little bit, but he did push. He did push Mr. Center. That's a really interesting one. One thing you mentioned earlier about if you're on the back, especially on the backhand side, if you're early, you're gonna go wide.

Torrey Hawkins (25:42.576)
Yes, you did.

Alvin Owusu (25:53.611)
and so on and so forth. This has nothing to, not a lot to do with this, but when I was on site last week in Miami, I did notice something, and this is why I implore all of you, go watch professional tennis live. Any level you can get your hands on. These players do things in person, some nuanced things that don't translate well on TV at all. And specifically, I saw a multiple.

multiple courts, multiple, especially on the guy's side, multiple players. You assume, we always talk about trying to hit a true topspin ball, right? You hit the ball clean, you wanna see the thing spinning over, right? So many men, so many men, specifically on the backhand side, utilize side spin on purpose, on purpose. Very similar to how, know,

Torrey Hawkins (26:42.554)
Hmm. Hmm.

Alvin Owusu (26:47.594)
We talked about many a couple weeks ago how he shovels that backhand around the court, right? Yeah, just getting that hand underneath it and just kind of just doing some weird things and he doesn't have that true. You don't often see that true Thompson ball. I mean, he obviously has it, but. These these players are so good at manipulating their hands and the ball in different ways that again you don't you don't notice it so much on television unless you're actually truly you're not watching the ball and you're watching them.

kind of slide in behind the back of balls to get it to yeah, to yeah, come in, come in like east to west across the back of the ball or right to west, the east if you're if you're right handed to get the ball to stay low and still travel forward, usually on an inside in back and let's see, don't have time to get around and hit that forehand. Okay, you know, let's just grease that inside in backhand to tail away. It's, I saw it so many times on the car. That's such a it's it's such a

Torrey Hawkins (27:20.078)
Graze it a way.

Torrey Hawkins (27:40.346)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (27:48.147)
when you're that good, it's underappreciated. Yeah, it's undernoticed. You don't even notice it unless you're there, right? But to your point about hitting the ball hard is not always the way to go. I sat with Rocket and Mickelson's team, I was right behind them in his match against Tobillo, Alex was going hard through the court and Alejandro was just, he was on it. That's not a problem.

Torrey Hawkins (27:48.472)
under appreciate.

Alvin Owusu (28:16.242)
Not a problem. mean, Alex is hitting back hands cleaner than Christmas. Four inches over, clearing the net, just darts through the court and Tabilla was just, yep, lefty, boom, got this all day, all day. Not until Alex was able to add some shape. Just get him out of the rhythm a little bit. Did you start seeing those clean forehands get a little bit crunchy? So, yeah, that's the segue. Let's get back to what we were talking about. I even forget where we were, to be honest with you.

Center.

Torrey Hawkins (28:47.012)
you small profile and you were talking about sometimes that backhand graze inside, know, outside to inside is enough to throw off your rhythm.

It doesn't give you the clean ball and it throws you off enough to get the ball they're looking for down the line to run you in that redirect. You know, can't, you can't, in other words, you can't sting, you know, big cross hook down the line because by the time you sting big cross and a player like center and most players can step back in a redirect, you've added or injected pace into the rally and to your own demise. And I think that's also what you're mentioning is that.

the ability to bring that ball inside, the ability to go-dropper at a moment's notice is something that you have to kind of keep an eye on. And I just feel like at some point, you know, to go pace big without realizing this is not what I like to do is to go pace big bigger and then go line. I have to really understand what I like to do well and play to that as hard as that may be to do and as unconventional as it may be

to roll, to slice, bring the outside to inside on the ball strike. These are things you have to do to keep these players at just a little bit, give you one more crack at it before they redirect on you because very few people, Alvin, are good at hitting on the run to targets. And Yannick Claudio.

chat GPT center is one of the best at them. And I just feel like you really have to look at this a couple of balls ahead. We're not talking, it's the mix between high speed, speed chess and checkers, right? You got to really understand. I'm going to go here. He's going to do this back this. I'm going to do this because I'm looking for this back. That's my shot. And that is just a shot or twit, not much farther. And you can't plan much of it out. You just have to know I'm looking for this kind of response.

Torrey Hawkins (30:47.856)
and I'm trying to get away from this kind of response. If I can do that and stay in that wheelhouse, I'm okay. You know what I mean? But as soon as you start redlining and you start going big and bigger and he's caught up to your big, it's over. Over.

Alvin Owusu (31:02.142)
Yeah, and that's the, when you say that, think about, I think about Metty, right? And Metty is, know, he will bear down with the best of them. He will stay in that cross-court rally. He's got the tools to do it, but you even saw, you know, of Indian Wells. Like he, even he had to go like, I can't do this all day. This is, this is not ideal. I'm going to have to pull and do more than I'm used to doing. And he had some chances as well. And similar to Zverev.

But that's you know, that's the kind of the that's where we are right now and as you see like these two players I would say between center and Carlos were a little on serve right now, right? We've they both participated in four tournaments this year the same four tournaments centers one two of them Carlos is one two of them. They haven't played I like it. I like a little time. Let this thing breathe a little bit And I would say they're on serve. I mean, yep

Carlos got the big prize in the beginning of the year. Yet, Senna did not. I think he responded in the best possible way. All right, I'm taking this double. And then off we go to back to Europe for the ClickCore season. before we go too macro on the opening of the year and our of our thoughts and some of the players we wanted to talk about, one of the players I think that we're both feeling really strong about had probably the match of the tournament won Artur Fies.

against Mr. Tommy Paul. mean, there had to be a loser and it sucks the way the TP went out in that one, but we got a moment in that one with a 766776 victory for Mr. Archer Fies. I'm not even gonna say that Archer's back. Archer's back on track because when he got hurt last year, his trajectory was going up. I think we are right back to where we lost him and he's still going up.

Torrey Hawkins (32:32.826)
God damn it.

Torrey Hawkins (32:59.252)
He's climbing big time, looks better than ever. Looks confident. Remember my words, Alvin, he's playing well right now. And you've got to really understand what that means in the locker room. Tommy Paul was up 6'2 in the breaker. I mean, maybe for one unforced error early in one of those points,

Alvin Owusu (33:03.335)
looks fit, looks strong, looks focused.

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (33:20.369)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (33:27.488)
Feast grinded five of those six points to finish that eight-six. He did not, know, Tommy did not choke that match. Feast grinded five of the six, went bigger than he's ever gone. And let's not mistake the fact that Tommy got up six-two in a Herculean effort and Feast just bore down. I mean, I think he was as surprised as anybody when he won it. But back to the macro point.

Alvin Owusu (33:31.496)
Yeah, you did.

Torrey Hawkins (33:55.456)
Arthur Fies is doing very, very well. And we called it last year. I was bummed for him because I knew what I see. I see it in him. He's doing great. Got hurt, pulled out of the French or whatever it was, think, right after the French. I think he got hurt this term last year, right? And then he played the French and then he was done pretty early after that.

Alvin Owusu (34:16.105)
Yeah, he know he because he lost Carlos in the finals of Barcelona I believe and then played the French it was right after that was right after he had that long match with uh, I can't remember the guy's name I can see his face right now, but yeah, like third round something like that fourth round of french open and then he was

Torrey Hawkins (34:21.528)
Right, it's like second to third round of a French, right? Then you pull.

Torrey Hawkins (34:30.032)
And then he was gone. Then he tried to come back and stayed and so on. And I was almost like, yeah, maybe it took off a little too long. And now I'm like, buddy, it was just right. You did great. And that's the other thing. We can't always realize how the toll that the tour takes on these guys. But having said that, I am so not only proud of Arthur, I'm so happy for him and his team, for him to have the success he's having right now. He didn't win the thing, but...

That match had a lot of confidence. He got through the finals, wasn't it Doha against Carlos. He's such good things right now that I feel like he is playing the ball that he can play. And now he's starting to get cracks at bat against those types of players. Right, I think fortunately for Lehechka, he got feasts on the back end of those three time raiders.

Alvin Owusu (35:01.587)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (35:22.095)
Yeah, that's unfortunate.

Torrey Hawkins (35:23.517)
He was a little bit out of court low, but that, and hey, that's not Yuri's problem, but I say it to say.

We're starting to enter in, we talked about this a day or so ago with the women's tour, we're starting to get that second layer of depth in the men's top 20. 10 or 11 through 20, Alvin, are ridiculous. Don't forget, your boy Lehechka was what, 21, 23, or whatever he was in the seed in this tournament, reaching the final, right? You you had a lot of parity. would say, you know, Corda had a surprise win there against Carlos, but you you also had, you know, that match against Tommy Paul was not an easy one for Feese.

Right? A few other top players went out. Minsik had a great match against my against my boy Teofil. That was a great match. There was just we're starting to see some real good quality matches by some quality players that aren't named Carlos and Janik.

Alvin Owusu (36:09.587)
Good one, Francis.

Torrey Hawkins (36:19.792)
And as a fan of the game, as I know you are, I really like seeing that because now there's not just a romp through, you know, and all the wrong calls inside of dry. Yeah, Carlos is still the man and he's and he's still that and yep, Yannick Claudio center is still there. But make no mistake, the rest of the top is continuing to sharpen their sword, so to speak against and be ready. And you heard it right here. Yuri Lehechka is better to

played this match. He pulled out some some holds. He's never had to hold as well as he held today and had to because he had to stay on serve. Didn't get didn't get broken until for all on both sides. I mean he was right there you know and he's the better player now having faced that and I feel like that that could be said for about 10 of these players. Obviously Carlos playing feast in the finals of Doha.

We're starting to get five or six of these kinds of players that are starting to, and Metsik isn't gone anywhere, right? He's not terrible now. I he's still grinding, still, and I want to say Alvin.

Landeluce or however I see his last name and others, they're starting, Yodhar, we're starting to get that next-gen group coming in there that's starting to make themselves apparent. This is starting to be, it's gonna go into a really good part of the next year because again, like the women's game, there may not be, there may not be 32 top 20s like I think there are on the women, but there's 25.

there's 25 that could arguably play top 16 ball and that means that you're going to have to literally elbow on each other out for position at least in my opinion.

Alvin Owusu (37:51.848)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (38:02.089)
Yeah, it's kind of how you look at the way that the levels of the tour, right? It's those two, right? Which I think have detached themselves from the rest. And yes, obviously they're not meeting in the finals of every event, right? They've split the four tournaments that they both played in, they've split them two, two, right? And they have not played each other in the finals. So obviously...

Torrey Hawkins (38:14.768)
for sure.

Alvin Owusu (38:30.003)
they're not going to make the finals of every single event. Things happen. But I think you have to look at, I've been saying this one a lot and I feel really confident about it. No match matters. Not one individual match that you will watch on a day matters. It can go, literally go either way. But it does matter in the aggregate, right? Today doesn't matter, but a few of, a bunch of todays put together.

gives you a good picture of who that player is and where their level is, right? And so you've got these two, right, the new two, those two, and then you've got people who are trying to join them. And that's kind of like how I look at it. Like there are some players who are in that level below and they will stay in that level below, right, and try to make a good match of it. And then there will be some, one or two, that burst through that level.

and beat one of these guys in a final, in a way, a match that actually matters, like a big one, or beat one of them and then go and win the tournament and say, I am one of these. Like, let's say Sebi Korda beats Carlos Alcaraz and then takes a march and then beats Center in the final. Now you've said something, like that is a statement, right? That is maybe not Sebi in this particular conversation, but you know what I mean, right?

We're looking for, I'm looking for progress for those that could or should break through and join and compete for slams, like truly compete for slams. And then there's the rest showing that they can, like maybe they're trying to make World Tour finals, right? Like, you're trying to get that top eight. I'm looking at like your Felix's and your Taylor's and your Lorenzo's and your Ben's, right? Those guys who are like, okay, maybe Ben and Lorenzo think that they could be in that group, but they, I,

Probably, probably not, right? But someone's gotta be top 10, right? And like you said, are, are, there's only one top 10, but there's more than 10 guys who are playing top 10 quality tennis, right? So that makes it for us, fans, right? It's great, it's great. Really, really good matches to watch on any court, every tournament, every week, it's amazing.

Torrey Hawkins (40:39.952)
and that's for me.

One. One.

Alvin Owusu (40:53.96)
I mean, tennis, feel like tennis is really in a healthy, healthy spot right now. And I like to see some of our former high achievers, like Daniel Medvedev, like showing a little resurgence here. I, along with you, love what I'm seeing from Sausage Sosasvaryov right now. He's trying different things. He's coming out of his comfort zone. He's trying to make a run at, like, I won't be mad if he wins a Grand Slam. I kinda feel like,

Torrey Hawkins (41:11.758)
Yeah. Yes.

Torrey Hawkins (41:19.3)
Right? He's due. He's due and the way he's playing, gonna, he's, he's playing like a person that is hunting for it, not a person who's hanging on for somebody's opportune win. I hear you. I'm going to push back on a little bit of it, but I get you in the, in the overall, your, in the aggregate to your point. Here's how I see it. And, and, and I'm, you know,

Alvin Owusu (41:24.422)
The way he's playing.

Alvin Owusu (41:30.882)
Right, exactly. Exactly, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (41:48.08)
We agree on, we're looking at the same masterpiece here. I'm gonna just point to maybe a subtle, know, we're at the Louvre, you and me, and we're splitting hairs on what we see from this ashtray right here. What I see is this, in reality, it's just our opinion and our whatever we're gonna call ourselves, high level of fans, you know what I mean? It's what I call ourselves.

Alvin Owusu (42:03.951)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (42:17.696)
I see two front runners that have taken off and left the pack. And I see.

Torrey Hawkins (42:30.19)
two, give or take three, formers that are trying to stay relevant with old and new. And then I see five, if you will, top tenors that are trying to prove that they are Grand Slam final worthy. And then I see about 10 up and comers. I'm talking 20 and in.

that are saying, I got next. I got something for him. Feas is in this category, Laheshka is in this category. You know, these are the players that are coming up. I don't know if the older players, and by that I mean Novak, by that I mean Dimitrov, by that I mean Mehdi. I don't know if they have perennial top five left in them. Novak is the strongest and he's gonna pull out a

18 more tournaments this year just due to health reasons and physical. He's will and he will still be a chance to beat both of them on a given day. And that's just Novak. He's just that good. You can't ever count him out. And to some degree you can't count on him physically speaking. He's 38 coming 39 years old this year. But he's the monolith. You just put him off to the side as the goat and he defies everything you ever want to say about him.

You know, only he decides when he's done that I'm tired of banking on counting him out and putting a timeline on it. He defies all logic. He is in fact Novak, but also decide he was the previous chat GBT, right? He was, you know, and that's where he is. Meti and Dimitrov, who have both shown some, sparks, right? Need we forget that he, that Demi was two sets to love.

Alvin Owusu (44:12.208)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (44:25.93)
up on your boy and Wimbledon last year before he threw his arm out. I gotta say it because your boy had no answer and I said to say getting hurt and I only mentioned it because he's older. He has shown that he has that level of game and they can play at that level and unfortunately injuries agents and so and so and so on and so forth and we haven't really seen him much since and he got to the semis or whatever. I to say of this term last year, right?

Alvin Owusu (44:28.604)
yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (44:53.168)
and lost to Novak in a phenomenal match by the way, but that no talk show. So I said to say, he's not exactly, you can't put dirt on the coffin for, for rigor yet. Meti shown his resurgence, right? And I thought he was going the way of the dodo, know, midway part of last year, losing to Lerner 10 and so on. I'm like, oh yeah, he's, it's, it's, it's done. It's done. Top 10, top five, Meti done. Not he's done. He can be done. He's a phenomenal player and a grand slam champ. He can be done whatever he wants to be done.

in the court of public opinion, right? Now, let's talk about those five who are top 10 now. You gotta take my main man, Lorenzo, my new BF, my new bestie. You gotta put Lorenzo out, cause he's been, he's, yeah, I'm not buying it. I'm not buying it, but I'm not selling it either. I thought Ben had an opportunity here that he didn't take advantage of. I thought Taylor had an opportunity he didn't take advantage of.

Alvin Owusu (45:35.944)
No, don't try to buy Don't try to buy a Mouseti stock now. There's not available. There's not available.

Torrey Hawkins (45:52.036)
I thought Tommy as a former top tenor was right there. He's had an unbelievable match with Arthur, but that was a wrestling away of the torch. wasn't so much a, he stopped short. Francis is a tough one because he's a former top tenor who is now, you know, maybe just a little bit past his prime. He wouldn't be in the same category, but by definition he would be as high as his ranking has been in the past. And now you're looking at that group of five to 10.

Demon R is another one that you're starting to look at and say, okay guys, are you getting closer to this? Are you getting further away from the pace that the distance that the front runners have set? At some point when you're running a marathon, Alvin, and the one and two to beat are already a minute or two ahead of schedule in the mile time of the 26 miles,

You can't think they're gonna slow down and give you a two minute over mile later on in the race, right? And they're going into the hills. So they had, they're going into the hills of the course two minutes ahead of schedule. And you're sitting there going trotting along at a good clip, checking your wine, checking your heart rate, and you're like, I feel good, I feel good.

Alvin Owusu (46:50.76)
Right, right, right, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (47:08.136)
Well, and that's the thing that bothers me when people, know, it came up yesterday after our women's, you know, our kind of women's Q1 slash Miami Open, whatever, whatever. It's like, when you say a player is catching up, right? It's like, they're catching up. It's like, well, the person that they're chasing is not stopping either. They are also progressing because they have their own goals, right? So if you want to say the gap is closing, it's like,

Well, you need to show me that the person in front is actually moving back for the gap to be closing. It's like we're just, or maybe we're all just going downhill now. You think you're going faster, but you're not. The other person's going faster too. But continue.

Torrey Hawkins (47:49.36)
That's That's right. It's the old me and my friend Eric Dabcha. We have the old, we do a lot of smoking the band references, you know, we're gaining on them. No, you're not. You just didn't play last week. You know what mean? You ain't gaining on nothing. You're finally coming back to relevance. And that's what I mean for lot of these top, the second half of the top five that are in this weird predicament.

Alvin Owusu (48:02.343)
No you're No you're not.

Torrey Hawkins (48:19.02)
out there who I didn't mention, and I gotta keep mentioning because I think you mentioned him earlier and he's, and I've known this young man since he was, he's a younger guy. The problem I have is Sasha Zverev is that one player just young enough, not 36 or whatever like Dimitrov and 38, 39 like Novak. I gotta think Sasha's a little younger.

than many, but they might be closer names than I think. I know you'll probably tell me here in a second.

Alvin Owusu (48:49.927)
Yes, I was just 28 and Meti is 30.

Torrey Hawkins (48:52.592)
So I figured they were close, I thought Sasha was younger. He's just young enough to still be quote unquote in the prime. He has enough looks at both of them to be relevant. He gets looks and he's always in that in in both. He's always getting looks. So he's always in that semi so to speak. He's not losing second third round to some to some you know, to some guys that may or may not be that level.

Alvin Owusu (49:04.967)
He gets looks he gets looks

Torrey Hawkins (49:21.604)
He is the one person why I feel has the best chance with all things being said. He has the big serve. He can come forward. He has a solid backhand. He does handle balls well. He doesn't miss much. He's not so streaky. And if he were to tweak to come forward more, if he were to, he has good hands at the net, Alvin. He is that one person that has the things that you could in fact say.

Alvin Owusu (49:44.347)
He does, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (49:50.266)
The sun, moon and stars were to align. He could beat one and the other. My pushback on you isn't that it's not possible to beat one of them. My pushback is it's not possible to both of them. There is one person that can beat both of them in the same tournament. And that person is Alexander Zverev. Novak cannot do it physically anymore. He showed in Australia he can be one of them if everything goes to plan. We know Novak's stick is without question.

but that will take a toll on the other statesman in the next match. He played a phenomenal set against Carlos and then couldn't finish it at that same clip and was playing phenomenal. It just, at some point by the time kicks in. We know Dimitrov is a question mark and we know Meti. As good as he can play, Meti with all his groundstrokes, he's gonna hit himself in that wet paper sack and he's going to expend so much energy. I've said it before, death of a thousand cuts.

And Meti is a former Grand Slam champion who knows... I'm number one in the world, thank you. And one or two finals of slams, two? I wanna see two. I wanna see two.

Alvin Owusu (50:49.963)
number one in the world.

Alvin Owusu (50:55.335)
Oh god, the one he won, lost there, lost that one. I think he lost two, two or three and then yeah, one,

Torrey Hawkins (51:01.424)
To my point, to my point, as know, he's say, mustered. know, he is 100 % mastered. We don't question his stick, his experience and his track record, his body of work. But that only leaves a couple that can actually do the thing back to back. You saw it with Kort, I don't care if Kort has dinged up or not. Kort with the match of his life, Carlos was a Kort low.

Sebi doesn't have it in him, a lot of 20 and out or whatever players, to do the thing twice. That's his career win. That's not him breaking through. Where I feel like a player like an Arthur Fees just needs a little more, I'm gonna say the long-term physical stamina and mental to get through two matches like Tommy Paul's in route in a two-week setting to get there, but again.

My main man is 21, 22 years old, Fies. He ain't 32 and he ain't 28. And so Fies can still get there. I'm talking about the guys that are on that aging side of things like your Taylor Fritz's, like your Tommy Paul's, like your Demonars. I'm not sure, I'm not sure Alvin, if there's gonna be enough time on the clock with the pace that Carlos and Yannick are setting for those players. The sun is setting a little faster on them than...

than we might think and the new up and comer, so I'm talking the, you know, feature, the Hatchkills, Men's Six, they are starting to make some, make some headway closing that gap. And that's my point. You're not gonna close the gap on one and two. You're gonna close the gap on on top 10 slash maybe top five. And that's what I'm getting at.

Alvin Owusu (52:40.922)
Alvin Owusu (52:45.691)
The interesting part about the Medvedev versus the Zverev conversation, I think Medvedev has more players that he can lose to than Sasha does. It's very hard to beat Sasha's Zverev. He has a big serve and then also makes balls. And can finish at the net. He doesn't get there as much as we'd like for him to, but there's a reason why he's always three, four in the world over like...

Torrey Hawkins (52:56.463)
Admit.

Torrey Hawkins (53:00.292)
really is.

Torrey Hawkins (53:04.377)
group.

Alvin Owusu (53:15.847)
I don't know, last eight years or so, he's just kind of been there. Like before the new two were there, it was him. then, yeah, he was three before, and then was Nadal and Djokovic in front of him. he's very hard to beat, one. So, yeah, occasionally he'll lose in the first round of a Grand Slam. happens to all these guys. It can happen early, right? It doesn't happen often. And if he gets past...

Torrey Hawkins (53:43.084)
He's like Kyrie Irving of basketball. Like he's just, he hasn't had some of the great success that the other you talk about, other superstars you talk about, but you darn sure don't count him out. You know what I mean? You know he's darn good and in his own right. And I just say that to say, I know it's kind of a weird comparison, but that's also why I feel like he is that player that has that.

Alvin Owusu (53:56.87)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (54:00.561)
And he-

Torrey Hawkins (54:09.614)
He has that enriched uranium, I hate to use the term, enough to go nuclear on these guys, if he were to put it together in a two week fashion and he's always there. it's not out of possibility for him to get there again or do it again, clay hard or indoor. So he's gonna be there, I just feel like, but the unfortunate side is there aren't many other players like him that

Alvin Owusu (54:19.857)
He's there, he's there.

Torrey Hawkins (54:38.832)
can do the same thing. I don't think anybody on tour right now, right now, take a snapshot in time right now, can do what Alexander Sveirov can do and can do it in back to back matches. Cause you're gonna have to beat both of them in the tournament at the way the numbers, numerically speaking, work out. You're gonna have to. You're gonna have to beat one in the semi and beat the other in the final. It's just gonna have to happen. And if you are lucky enough,

to get through one of them and somebody does the work for you on the back half, you're still gonna have to take out a Novak or you're still gonna have to take out somebody else who's playing that level of ball and not cough up a choke in the process. And that's where I feel the Alexander's variable things is, that's where he resides. And that's why I'm putting, that's why I'm buying slash, know, putting my, raising the stock on Alex is I feel like he's.

It's not just that he's that good historically. He's playing better ball now and he's trying things that are continuing to test the fences, so to speak, on what those guys cannot do. And I really like that. If anything, I think he's played more consistent ball than Carlos has. And I'm gonna pick on Carlos for a second because Carlos can be shrieking. We know he can be in and out. When he's playing well, it's unbelievable. He's a Michelangelo with a tennis racket. Where my boy, Claudio Claude, you know, GPT.

is a little more, is just the robot with a racket. The Zverev has Tron tendencies. He can go in there and figure out how to make things happen on the computer and he can make artwork with the AI pencil and against my boy. And I just feel like that's a very specific combination, which is why I'm so high on his possible wrecking ball into those twos, you know, as playing spoiler.

one of those two. But the problem is, the flip side of that is, there aren't many other Alex Veras right now out there. And it's gonna be tough sledding going in through the clay season. is, know, it's gonna be tough sledding to disrupt one of them if your name isn't Sasha Svara.

Alvin Owusu (56:49.016)
Yeah, and I'll even be like, not to be overly simplified about it, but like Sasha Zverev, can his bad day level is higher than most players bad day? Like on a bad day, he's still gonna beat most players. That's the thing. he's also in really good shape. he doesn't, yeah, he's in fantastic shape. So I also like bank on him for being there.

Torrey Hawkins (57:11.344)
Has to be, it's got be, it's got to be, it's to be normal shape, you know what mean?

Alvin Owusu (57:18.02)
Like if you're gonna ask me like what's the what's the best ability the the best ability is availability and I'm just I just assumed that he's gonna be in the semi-finals He's gonna be the one there. So yeah at some point. It's got a break in his favor

Torrey Hawkins (57:18.736)
Thanks

Torrey Hawkins (57:31.406)
Alvin, was right there with Carlos in Australia in a four hour, almost five hour match that Carlos took advantage of a couple of, know, he might be in better shape than Carlos, truth be told. But I say that to say, Alvin, and I don't want to keep waxing poetic on the guy, the loss and the semis. I get that. This is Carl, this is Yannick's show. I feel like, but I feel like it's important to mention, it's kind of like we were, people were kind of sleeping on Andy Murray, you know, back in the, know.

Alvin Owusu (57:33.922)
Sure. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (57:42.022)
If we

Torrey Hawkins (58:01.04)
mid-2000s all the way through to mid-2010s. Murray was always that good. You knew there were players like a Gail Monfils, like a Joe Willis Sanga. You know there were players that could, like my main man, Thomas Burdick, and so on and so on. Phenomenal players. That could hang. Guillermo Cagnes, J.C. Ferraro. You know him, I know him. But there were players that you knew were gonna get to that semi.

consistent like a birdie. And I feel like he is that but he's the 2020s version who's that much better. And he's closer to the Murray of things that can steal one, right? Closer to the where Marin Cilic just kind of stole one in the middle and kind of went back. He's closer to the Murray slash Stan Marenka that can steal one and beat both of them in the same tournament, which is a very, very hard feat to me when you're going up against some of the world's best.

And my only problem is I don't see another one like him to add that level of parity, you know, in the draw. And quite frankly, I'm worried about some of the top five-ers, five, six, seveners, that are now coming upon that numerically challenged score, the way the draw points work out, they could play those players in the quarters now, not in the semi. And if they lose to them then, numerically speaking,

Alvin Owusu (59:20.528)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (59:25.934)
they are going to now find themselves in round of 16 territory and outside of the top 10 very quickly. They don't pick up a few 500s, a few 1000s and so on. And it really, puts pressure on your body of work outside of the slams because you know you numerically speaking will come in playing one those guys early. And if one thing I have learned from Yannick Center is that he adjusts so fast.

It's like Neo and Matrix against the upgrades. mean, you just know what you thought worked before don't work anymore. You know what mean? The computer, the architect has figured it out and they got something against you. anyway, I just feel like that almost hurts the rest of the people because they have not had either the opportunity or enough looks at it. And the top who are kind of there now know they can't beat them.

at the current rate. And so now that lead unfortunately expands, you know what I mean? And as I say, it's gonna be some tough sledding. This play court season is gonna be very interesting to see how things sift out.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:36.992)
Yeah, and before we kind of take a look ahead, there's just kind of one, I've kind of had this conversation a few times this week and people asked me about the difference between Alcara's and Sinner and my oversimplified takeaway is Carlos probably has a slighter higher ceiling. He's got that gear that he can get to. But his floor is a little bit lower. so Yannick.

The tennis that Yannick will play in this tournament, Indian Wells, will look very similar to the tennis that he'll play in Rome, which will look very similar to tennis he's gonna bring to the French Open. And if Carlos is off by a hair, Yannick's got him, right? But if Carlos is feeling good and they both bring the best versions of their game together, extra gear.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:26.672)
He's got that 1%, that slight edge. I agree. 100%.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:28.518)
that no one else has, yeah. And he can go there and turns into like Super Mario with a star, right? It's just a little bit different. It's hard to bank on it though. And that's where the lower floor comes into the match.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:36.314)
Yep, yep.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:45.326)
He banks on that, he banks on that star, so to speak, a little too much. And I will add to that, he's also more prone to not just the variance in level, he's more prone to be streaky in routine matches that will drain that extra star power in matches and in rounds he doesn't necessarily need to. And I think that hurts him over the course of a Fortnite. It hurts him in the case of, and as players continue to get better at him.

He knows the match isn't necessarily in jeopardy, but he also can't close you out like he'd want to as methodically and surgically as Yannick will. And that's also a benefit of the two styles, right? Which is why it's a good fire and ice combination, right? Because we as a fan get the benefit of that variance, you know?

Alvin Owusu (01:02:32.739)
Yeah, I'll also push and say that I think we're starting to get into this point now where Carlos views, he's gotten into this, he views the slams a little differently. He'd like to win all the time, but I truly think that from what I've seen over the last five Grand Slams now we're talking, his ability to focus in at the Grand Slams, best of her five, yeah, he's not a.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:57.048)
yeah. He's like, he's like, yeah, you're Yeah. Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:01.285)
It's not a joke, it's not happening there. It might happen here, it might happen in any wells, whatever, whatever. He's ready to get back to the clay, like a lot of these players are, but I don't see that happening in the French Open. I don't see it happening at Wimbledon. You're going to have to beat him, like beat him. Which is why he has not lost the five set match in like five years. give me the aggregate there. Yeah, no, no. But if he's a little off,

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:15.754)
it's a reply?

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:22.052)
Right, right. You're absolutely right.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:32.357)
Yeah, I do trust the machine from that standpoint.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:37.38)
Like, and the 1000s are now like 250s to him, like they used to be. You hate to say it, but he's like, let me get out of here. You know what I mean? One with the jet, I'm out. You know what I

Alvin Owusu (01:03:48.41)
It's like, yeah, it's interesting. They're starting to use this term of big tournaments, right, and like how many big tournaments that Yannick has won, and it's like, it's the Slams, and they're putting in the Masters, 1000s, and they're putting in the ATP Tour Finals, and it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Everyone knows what the deal is. These guys are counting big bucks here, right? They are in Slam or Bust.

category That's it. That's it

Torrey Hawkins (01:04:16.852)
They're going for history now. They're not going for stats and this and that and the third. They are going for slams and they're going for history and legacy and putting their stamp on both. And hey, good for them and good for the game, you know what I mean? what was it? Right.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:30.627)
Yeah, as Yannick would say, let's see what's coming. Yeah, as we look forward to what is coming, just kind of a quick feel. We've got about seven weeks on clay here from Monte Carlo all the way to Endeavor Lingeros-ish, maybe a little bit longer than that, maybe a little bit shorter, can't do math. Anyone that you're, I'm gonna say, not necessarily worried about, like...

you place a lot of stock on what they have to get done over the next few weeks. Someone like, Taylor hasn't had the best bit of run in the last, I'd say six-ish months or so. He's serviceable on clay, obviously not his best surface. He's got his eyes towards grass. But you mentioned Casper last time we got together.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:12.644)
Yup.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:26.403)
I feel like someone like Casper, if he doesn't steal some points here in this South China swing, he puts a lot of pressure on himself coming into the clay court season. Who are you excited about? Who are you worried about outside of these, the guys that we talk about all the time?

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:42.284)
Excited about Arthur Fees. We mentioned Arthur you already know. I'm not going to say anything more about my main man, Svearov, because he's already there. I'm excited about Caspar Rood. We mentioned him before. I'm excited about Jakub Mincek. I'm excited about...

Alvin Owusu (01:05:46.595)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:08.208)
I hate to, Lechka, right? I'm excited about Yao. I'm excited about, I'm gonna give you one more, Lerner 10 and so on. So I'm excited about everybody who might, Rafael Yoder. I'm excited about, even Landa Luce is gonna, I think is gonna show people some things this clay course season. He's starting to really come into his own. Who I'm worried about. I'm worried about Taylor Fritz. I'm worried about,

I'm about Taylor Fritz a lot. I'm a little worried. I'm a little worried about a lot worried about Bublik, right? I don't think he's having the same power that he's had before. I'm a little worried about Kaboli. had, came out, Gang Busters last year. I'm not sure if he's playing that same level of ball right now. I'm worried about players like, you know, catching off. I'm worried, I'm really worried about Andre, you know, Rublev.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:45.797)
Mmm

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:07.248)
that older guard that's starting to slip a little bit. Not worried about D. Menard. He's too physically fit to do his thing and he's too tough to play. I'm not worried about Tommy Paul. I'm not worried about Ben yet. I thought this was an opportunity for him that he stubbed his toe, I feel like the more...

He can go as his serve goes and as his momentum goes, he's only gonna get better on clay over the years. So he's a different track and because his service so darn big, he's always relevant at grass, always relevant on any surface, but the serve except for the top, the most elite elite of returners. I'm not worried about Felix honestly right now. I think he's playing some really good ball could really could turn little and loose nice things.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:52.719)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:54.882)
I mentioned Rude before, he's a veteran, he does his thing. I'm not worried about David Icifakina. He's a pretty good hard court slash clay court player. I'm not worried about Sarandolo, Dardere. I'm not worried about Lerner. All these guys are going to continue to do well. Obviously, your boy, my main man, new bestie, Musetti is going to do well. I'm not worried about those kind of players. I am probably more worried about the outside of those guys that haven't quite done because now

Take a Mickelson, right? Take a Nakashima. a, you know, the, the, that level of player that has not yet broken through yet. And now the other players are coming back or pushing through. They're only going to numerically find themselves in a round of 16, a round of 32 match against these better seeds earlier. And those are the guys I'm a little more worried about. They were hovering at 20, 15, 18, and now they're like, Ooh.

I'm worried about who's my man that's starting to, I'm worried about your, I'm worried about Sebi Korda. This was a great match for him, but I don't see Sebi closing the gap as great as his win was. I don't see him being a clay court special, you know what I mean? Going through this piece and I feel like, he's always been a injury pro.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:14.691)
Ahem.

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:17.008)
Anyway, that's where I'm at. What about you? Where are you with it? I know I threw out a lot of names there, but I've been thinking about this a lot. And I feel, I honestly feel Alvin, there's only three, maybe five players that can surge here. When I say surge from 20 to 12 or from 25 to 13, you know what I mean? There's only a few of them that can do that because the other guys are gonna hold.

Some are gonna hold steady, you know, down one, up one, as they do. There's only three to five players that can surge, and I see more of the former top 10 going down, losing two, three, five, seven spots than I see moving in. Because you know one and two won't change, and you know that three, four, and five are probably gonna be where they are, but that means that six, seven, eight, nine guys.

They have a lot to put up or shut up and that's the group that I see could move down the most and let those other guys kind of open the door and sneak in the back door if they're not careful.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:24.324)
I'll be a little more, I'll be specific on this one. There are some guys that have, I have this, I always feel like you got about three years at your peak, right? And I feel like we've had a couple people who have hit their ceiling. And once you've hit your ceiling and you don't break through that ceiling, there's nowhere else to go but down. You can't sit at number five in the world forever, right?

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:51.19)
I know you sit at five in the world. You know, let's play. Let's put that out there. You don't ever sit at five. mean, five. For you, you're striving to hang on the five.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:55.556)
Yeah, it's it's Right yeah, it's a yeah, it's a five of the turn

Five is a turnstile. It's a nice place to get to, but if you get stuck there, it's only, you're going back down, right? And I'm not just, I'm gonna say I'm worried about Taylor Fritz. I feel like we've had a really, really good run with Taylor Fritz, and I think that's where we about peaked Taylor final at Grand Slam, final of the US Open two years ago, right? Was it two years ago? We lost the center in the final? Is that 2024? 2024?

I think that was the top of his mountain. think, and I, and I say that as someone who has a lot of respect for Taylor and his professionalism and the way that he carries the, carries the pail in the hard hat, every single day. But, I think I feel like the back of tricks is empty and he's got a lot riding on, on Wimbledon, on Wimbledon. Like, and he's not in the, his knee right now is just not where it needs to be. And he's going to take a little bit of time off, but he can't really afford to.

So he's in a tricky spot.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:11.326)
Demon orb maybe similar Maybe similar. I just don't know that like again, like I said, he's at six in the world right now Like is he is he gonna get to five? Is that where he pushes to? Okay, if they it it's either that or he's going the other direction like it's one of the two and

Torrey Hawkins (01:12:27.546)
He was the one guy that I could see staying inside top 10 only because he is six. He could fall down as low as nine or 10 and still hang. And when it gets back to grass or hard court, he's fine. I don't think he's a phenomenal clear quarter. He's not a terrible clear quarter.

you know, and his speed and his fitness are obviously top notch. But I agree with you. I agree with you. Michael Weepin for sure, but he can play a good enough ball to get through. He and Tommy both. But I agree with you on Taylor big time. I also agree with you on Ben in the sense of clay court season. I'm saying Ben and I'm saying Ben for the clay. I'm not saying Ben for grass. I think Ben needs to really get better.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:48.452)
It's the lack of weapons that bothers me.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:00.26)
I didn't say been yet. I didn't say been yet

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:10.806)
at the grass court and really understand his serve and start to really get better at returning to make the jumps that Taylor did a few years ago.

It wasn't that long ago he was losing into Rafa, you know, with that underhand serve situation that he was playing and he was that close from breaking through, beating one of the greats. He, Ben, needs to get to that level. What he showed us a few years ago in Australia, he really needs to make that be a mainstay for him for the grass as big as his serve is. And I want to give it back to you, but I want to just say, you look at those, you're 6'7", 8'9", right? You're, you're Demonard, you're Taylor, you're Felix, you're Ben, you're Daniel, right? That's it.

That's your tip. Those guys to me are, four of those five are in trouble going, three of the five are in trouble going into this clay court season. Taylor, unfortunately for me right now with his health and with everything else, is at the top of that list.

Alvin Owusu (01:14:07.5)
The issue, not the issue with Ben, but the thing that is of concern is that he is right there in between these 23 years old. that puts them right there in the middle between Carlos and Yannick. And he keeps meeting them in Grand Slams and he keeps losing to them. There is a compounding impact there over time. that is what, and it's not, we understand that he is making micro improvements.

That is that, that maybe don't show up clearly on the scoreboard, like taking sets or, you know, stealing, stealing a win off of one of them and a non grand slam. Like that's not happening, but eventually it's going to have to happen before it starts to impact the way he feels going into the matches. Right. Some people like to call it scar tissue. And I feel like that, that word gets thrown out a lot, but it's not like directionally it's correct.

I think directionally it's accurate. So that is something I'm a little worried about. The rest of the guys, I think Jodar, obviously there's a lot of talent there. I think it's just a little bit too soon. Mincek, if I see Mincek fall apart in a deep match again, he's looking better, but fitness is still gonna be an issue with him, which leads to him being a little streaky week in, week out. I don't know if I can trust him, but obviously the high end's there.

Torrey Hawkins (01:15:36.08)
Still, still,

Alvin Owusu (01:15:36.1)
Two out of three sets, yes, but two out three sets, the high ends there, when we're, yeah, maybe not. And then Lerner, feel like Lerner's gonna keep creeping up, he's gonna keep creeping up because he's solid, he's solid, he's Yeah, I mean, you're gonna have to go through him, but I think that's a hard task in itself and that could get him to sniffing top 10 in pretty short order. you know, we are,

Torrey Hawkins (01:15:40.208)
Sure, three out of five, maybe not.

Torrey Hawkins (01:15:50.542)
no weaknesses.

Alvin Owusu (01:16:05.069)
We're gonna close our eyes and we're gonna open them again and you're gonna see red clay, blue sea, Monte Carlo time. It's the most wonderful time of the year.

Torrey Hawkins (01:16:11.696)
we gotta get there. We gotta get there next year. That's one of my, we gotta have a new term for bucket list and that needs to be, we're gonna call it an urgent list or something because that term is just so picturesque. God, I do. But to your point, Micah, we'll give it time. But I agree with you, it's coming into that time of year where,

Alvin Owusu (01:16:29.143)
Yeah. Give it time.

Torrey Hawkins (01:16:39.076)
We'll say this and we'll put a pin in it. You just mentioned the top, I'm calling Claudio, know, a chat GPT center. He keeps finding ways to solve the algorithm, right? It's high time for the five through 25 to change their game such that they are relevant on other surfaces and against the top.

five slash 10 more often. They can't just keep doing what they've always done or they'll get what they've always gotten. They are now, you mentioned Minsik and his stamina slash going deep in matches. We mentioned Lehechka, Lehechka's got to get a weapon or two a little more than what he's got. We mentioned, you can keep going on the list. Feast has to get match tough to do that two more matches for a Grand Slam and they're all showing great promise.

Yao has now faced the top two back to back. He now knows what he's in for. For him to, him and the rest of the next gen, right? Blox, know, Jodar, Landa Luce, you know, and so on and so on and so on. Minsik, Turner, Lerner, all of them, But they have got to now start to take a page out of their book to adjust and be more, I'm gonna use the term, volatile.

in a good way to disrupt the other players they're playing against so that they are relevant. I feel like they have the goods to go one more step.

that maybe some of the players that came before them did not. They have height on their side, they have power, they have serves, they have returns. Can they now just be solid when they need to be and big when they can? Because I feel like that's where they are. That's where they may succeed where others have failed. they might surpass the level of the Demonars, the Tommy Paws, the Caboles, the Catch-It-Alls. Maybe they can push past what those guys can do.

Torrey Hawkins (01:18:43.366)
physically, if they could only be as solid as those players have been perennially. And I think that's what we're looking for in my opinion. Can they adjust a little bit more? There's a great ad during COVID, Adidas ad said, champions, period, adjust, period. And I thought it was one of the best ads slash parts of life. Can they, can these new young...

you know, up and comers become champions and adjust. That's my challenge. That's my, that's the gauntlet I'm throwing down on a lot of these up and coming next gens.

Alvin Owusu (01:19:19.086)
Fair enough, fair enough. And with that, we can put a pin in it. I'm Alvin, that's Tori, best of three. We'll catch you on the red stuff.