Jannik Sinner vs Carlos Alcaraz: Execution, Margin, and the Next Phase of a Rivalry

Alvin Owusu (00:01.144)
And we're back welcome to another episode of that's a three podcast. I'm Alvin That's Tory and we are we're gonna make it quick today because we're on location on that in the studio But when Carlos and Yannick get together and tussle It's it's much watch TV. So we we then must come talk to you about it. So first and foremost TH how you doing?

Torrey Hawkins (00:05.912)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (00:21.376)
I'm good, Alvin, I'm good. How about you doing?

Alvin Owusu (00:24.035)
I'm good now. I'm good now that I'm here with you and we finally got one, right? I think that's been the kind of conversation going on over the last few months. Like we were, as tennis fans, we've been a little over-served thinking that this is the norm where these guys get together all the time. we've gone, know, right. It's been almost a good six months since we've seen these guys against each other since a year in Turin last year. But...

Torrey Hawkins (00:25.922)
Yeah. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (00:42.19)
You don't appreciate how special it is when you go without it for a little while. 100%. All right.

Alvin Owusu (00:53.585)
you know, up to this point they had split like every tournament that they both participated in one of them won it 2-2 and this is the fifth tournament that they both participated in this year and lo and behold we got these guys in the finals again Yannick center coming out the victor 7-6 6-3 I to get your thoughts on this match and not necessarily this specific match but

We almost have to look at these as like installments now of a longer narrative that is being, that's gonna be played out hopefully many, many more chapters, but what made today, yeah, yeah, seriously. I mean, there's not really a lot of, they're not really getting so much resistance from the rest of the field right now, but what did this particular, yeah, what did this particular chapter?

Torrey Hawkins (01:23.854)
Sure, iterations. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:31.854)
Could be over the next few weeks leading up to the French.

Torrey Hawkins (01:42.158)
They're leaving, Phil, right now. Resistance from the... is futile, unfortunately. is... Here's my thoughts. First and foremost, good to see you and I know you're traveling these days and appreciate you making time for this whole thing. This is now, because they are both A, healthy, B, they're finding stride. Obviously, Yannick just coming off the Sunshine Double.

Carlos, you know, taking out the years earlier Grand Slam. I mean, they could not be in better form to start the year. I thought, I'm calling this Don't Blink Tennis. Because if you as a fan blink, you miss something. I mean, if you just blink long enough, you miss the go behind. You miss the drop shot that the other guys saw coming. You miss the phenomenal lob in the backhand overhead. You missed the third, fourth, fifth pattern.

of the play, because the first two got matched and neutralized. And so now we're so deep into it. As a player, if you blinked, you might have had an opening that just got neutralized. I think Carlos was up a break in both sets, you know what mean? And ended up losing it and ended up losing his lead. And you could say he squandered it, but it was just great tennis all the way around. I mean, you could even say that.

You know, each thing was pretty well thought for. I'm calling it Don't Blink because I don't think it was so much either person lost. I think it was just a matter of Yannick in the end just played a little steadier when it counted. And I felt like Carlos, if Carlos dips his level album just a tad, he and Yannick are even. If he raised his level a tad, he's a little bit better. If he comes in a little bit less than his norm,

Alvin Owusu (03:27.331)
Right, right.

Mmm.

Torrey Hawkins (03:37.74)
He will get straight-setted like he got today, at worst.

Alvin Owusu (03:40.433)
When you say if Carlos dips his level, I'll push back on that one just a little bit because I feel like Yannick's baseline level that he brings, his eight out of 10, is probably a little bit, I think it's a little bit higher than Carlos's baseline level, like what I show up with every day. Yannick's floor is higher, yes. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (03:57.262)
I would say his floor is higher. I would say his margin of, oh God, and his level of, my dad worked for Boeing for years and back when they were going through this whole phase, they called it the total quality control. I can remember him talking about it it was yesterday. And it was this whole PQC, was this whole thing, I guess before the six, know, lambda, all the whatever things that they have nowadays. Anyway, they were going from inches to micrometers.

Alvin Owusu (04:13.624)
yeah! ...lean, secure air!

Torrey Hawkins (04:25.836)
Right? They were trying to get it down to the millimeter. They wanted that every piece of part on the planes and whatnot being so good that they had efficiency. This is back when Toyota, Honda, they were all pushing. This is when the, you know, the cars from Japan and even Korea as well were starting to get so good and so efficient and did not break down. They all attributed to this total quality control. Now, why do I mention that? Yannick has TQC times 10. I mean, his

Alvin Owusu (04:47.323)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (04:54.734)
his efficiency is down to the micrometers. I feel like Carlos is still like a bit like you know your old American V8. Buddy when it is on it is unbelievable but there's some gaps in there you need to always tune it up a little bit. That's what I mean. You get a little bit extra sway in the back. It's a lot of power but buddy as that back ends fishtailing with that 450 it can lose traction. Here's the point.

Alvin Owusu (05:11.875)
Yeah, you can lose the back wheels pretty easy every once in a while. Yeah, a little bit of sideways.

Torrey Hawkins (05:25.246)
Alcaraz I feel has just a tad bit of a higher level, another gear if you will. But if he ain't on, that darn Yannick thinner is going to get him. And any close match. And McClay just slows it down enough for that extra level of time to not be a factor. And Yannick's footwork is just so darn clean. He's starting to slide better on McClay. He reads the drop a little sooner now. He's going behind him a few more times. He just

He's catching up. What did Neo tell the sentience? Upgrades. It's like when he found upgrades. He knew that they weren't, that what he did before wasn't gonna work. And I think that's what Carlos saw today. I'm just happy to see it because I think Carlos, like Neo, has an extra gear. He has an extra level in him to go. But trust me, thinner.

Alvin Owusu (06:03.098)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (06:21.548)
Sinner is like the twins, you know what I mean? In episode two and three of The Matrix. He has caught up and in my opinion, he's starting to really take, you know, Carlos through the depth of his chart, so to speak, of his combinations, of his patterns. And I'll be honest with you Alvin, it's gonna take a very solid patient and a very surgical effort to have.

him lose on the clay to Carlos the way Yannick's playing right now. That's my opinion.

Alvin Owusu (06:55.109)
I'll say even specifically, even narrow that down to a further, a smaller subset of matches, two out of three is not, like if it's a two out of three set match, giving that to, I'm gonna give that to Yannick. He's gonna have the advantage there because of his, because you mentioned, like his margin, he doesn't really vary that much, right? So in a match like this today, Carlos, okay, I'm not gonna say that he squandered opportunities when he was up a break in both sets, right? You're going to, you're gonna hold, you you're gonna get broken. It's gonna happen, right?

Torrey Hawkins (07:22.872)
Yeah, right.

Alvin Owusu (07:24.849)
The thing that I noticed was when trying after those after both I guess all three of the times that he was able to break When he got broken back he was just and he had game points, right? But was not able to make first serves when it came down to it, right? and that's that that's kind of the the second serve on clay is that that's kind of the that's the turning point between these two right now because

Torrey Hawkins (07:40.066)
Right. Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (07:51.801)
As much as we talked about Janik coming out of the Sunshine Double and how he's like, effectively the best server on tour right now, he's also the best returner on tour. And specifically on that second serve, it's like the entire match was a game of, and you see it with these two, it's who can get their toes closer to the baseline in any given rally. And Janik was like just trying to not necessarily play hardcore tennis against Carlos, but he's like, I'm not coming off this baseline. You're gonna have to force me off this baseline.

And if Janek has a chance to look at a second serve, that means he started, he was not going back to try to rip and roll it, right? He was coming up, taking the hitch kick backhand and like, I'm going to sacrifice a little bit of pop on this return to apply leverage onto Carlos and stay on him. I felt like every, and pressure, and pressure. that's, know, in those moments when Carlos was able to get up in the first set, up in the second set, you start to just kind of look where the points were ending.

Torrey Hawkins (08:27.832)
Bye.

Torrey Hawkins (08:37.986)
and stay on and pressure. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (08:49.531)
Carlos had Yannick on the back, like four or five feet behind the baseline, and he's able to like, lot of space for that drop shot as the match wore on, not as much space for those drop shots. Yannick's getting to them now, he sees them coming because he's also starting much closer, much closer.

Torrey Hawkins (09:04.27)
Yep, much closer. The other two things I saw, number one, the breaks came early, right? They were early enough that they really didn't hurt you that much. know, if I break, we, you 2-0, and I was the other one, think 2-1 or whatever, it was 3-1, it was so, yeah, 2-1, 3-1, it was so early that it didn't really hurt him overall per se. Still a break, but it was a management break. If you're gonna get broken, get broken early, and Carl, especially on the clay, it's not like you're gonna serve bombs and serve your way out. The second thing, I felt like,

Alvin Owusu (09:12.123)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (09:16.529)
3-1, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (09:30.136)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (09:34.582)
I felt like, first of both players played great. I didn't think there was that much of a dip in level. But Alcáez is continuing to be the aggressive player and always go for the big inside in, the big step up, the big going back behind, the drop shot to kind of force some pressure and force something to happen. Well, at some point, you better have the goods to close the door or to finish that pattern, or you leave yourself vulnerable because now...

You've given a guy who's fast, a guy who's consistent, a guy who's pretty solid the chance to counter you. And the problem I felt was, I felt like there was about five or six points. It was a, you know, small, just simple things. And Carlos normally makes these kinds of shots. There was that short lob in the breaker, right? Where he had him, roped him on the the dropper, great point. And Carlos, Yannick really got there. You and I both know Carlos makes that backhand lob with the teardrop.

Alvin Owusu (10:06.715)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (10:19.608)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (10:27.798)
you know, saw your Duncan style, brings that thing back down over the back corner, brings like eight, nine times out of 10. On a bad day, seven times out of 10. Today that thing fell a little short and he let, you know, Yanick get the overhead. Little shots like that. Went to the dropper a little bit early, where he let Yanick know the dropper was coming. Little bit of bailout, right? These are points where I feel the accumulative of Carlos' attacking patterns.

Alvin Owusu (10:28.881)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (10:47.249)
Almost bail out.

Torrey Hawkins (10:57.614)
are starting to get answered. And it's not in a way that you're countering, like you can't do it anymore, I mean, it's that, okay, I'm gonna get there. What else you got? I'll see you one and I'll raise you one more. And now you put you, I would say, five times out of 10, he was able to have the goods, right? He pulled one more forehand. He hit one more ball off the line. But if he left one hanging, if he hit one just a little early, he just didn't finish the deal.

Alvin Owusu (11:00.965)
Hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (11:24.396)
And I felt that happened in the latter end of the first, and through the breaker. And obviously it happened a lot in the second. And I just feel like that ended up the pressure of him having to do it over and over and over again is what was his undoing. It wasn't necessarily that it didn't work. It didn't finish him and he needed the other play. And in this match, he didn't get in and close off the net like he's done before. Maybe it was his too much respect for Yannick's passes.

Alvin Owusu (11:44.017)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (11:53.326)
Maybe he got in late, maybe he just was watching a little late and didn't get in when he could have. Or was it your opportunity and that's where your boy was out on the race line? You're right. My point is whatever it was, he didn't get in enough to seal the deal when he had him and that made the patterns go three, four patterns deep. Bottom line, I feel like this is what I love about these two's game is that we keep seeing how good they both are the more they play each other. They keep pushing each other to this point where

Alvin Owusu (11:57.361)
or not getting the opportunities. You can't just come in on hopes and wishes, right?

Torrey Hawkins (12:22.914)
You don't know what they're gonna do. They don't know yet what they're gonna do and it's still early. You know, reminds me of the early days of board and macro where they were both pushing each other getting better by playing each other. Pete and Andre, know, early Fed and Nadal. You start seeing this push-pull relationship where they're pulling the best out of each other. You know what I mean? And that's the part that people, I don't think maybe the average fan can appreciate. They're learning each other the more they keep doing this. That's why it's so fun each time.

This is number five, as you mentioned. We'll probably get 15, if we're lucky. Their 15th is gonna be amazing. We think we've seen good. It's gonna only get better.

Alvin Owusu (13:02.045)
But that's the thing we have to remember when we think about, we always want to compare this to Fed and Rafa, whatever, whatever. But there were occasionally duds in that matchup. Occasionally. Especially on Clay, when they got on Clay. Even towards the back end, even after Fed got a hold of that rivalry a little bit post 2017, there was still that one French Open where I think

Torrey Hawkins (13:09.676)
Yeah, right.

Torrey Hawkins (13:14.377)
for sure.

Alvin Owusu (13:30.607)
Rapa tore him up like 101 or so. was bad. It was windy. was in semifinals. It was a whole thing. I was almost expecting a bit of a dud today. We've got to be due for, mean, the Cincinnati Yannick was sick, had their retirement, whatever. But I feel like we got both players playing the best that they could play today. And I think that first set was, I mean, remember the whole match. The score was a little lopsided in the second set, but that was.

Torrey Hawkins (13:31.906)
Right, right, it was, yeah, it was,

Torrey Hawkins (13:57.614)
percent solid.

Alvin Owusu (14:00.229)
That was a little bit of like, you know scoreboard pressure maybe got to Carlos a little bit towards the in that second that Third break in that second. I got broken three times in one set That's a lot But it's so let me let me let me push this back on you then as you say like as we continue to go down this You know, they continue to match up. They continue to learn from each other. They continue to push each other Let's so look got it has won the last two in a row, right?

What does Carlos need to do? We anticipate they'll meet again probably in the clay court season. I would imagine if they're both in Madrid and or Rome or French Open. What does Carlos need to do differently to be able to get himself through Janek in a best out of three set match? Because I'm going to hold the best out of five set match up. That's going to be... He'll have more time. He'll have more time and I think more time...

Torrey Hawkins (14:34.338)
almost home effect.

Torrey Hawkins (14:50.447)
the edge goes to Carlos all day. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (14:57.553)
He has the ability to find more magic. Doesn't get tagged as much for the little mistakes in that longer format, in best out of three.

Torrey Hawkins (15:03.438)
And Yannick has the ability to get tired.

Alvin Owusu (15:07.889)
That is also, that's a thing that has happened before. I don't know if he's tired, if it just happens, but it's happened. But so yeah, in two out of three, how do we assume that Carlos, how do you think Carlos needs to adjust here to maybe wrangle one back?

Torrey Hawkins (15:09.546)
especially with the elements. Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (15:21.08)
Simple, Three things, hold serve. Number one, hold serve. More first serves. Yannick's not missing many returns and he's not killing on the first serve return, but he's tagging second serve returns. Make more first serves. just quit hitting first serves for the majority of match. This ain't hardcore and you're not necessarily, that's not your best weapon against him. It's a great serve of yours, he has a good serve. Don't put yourself in a trick bag. Number one. Number two, finish the pattern.

Alvin Owusu (15:32.347)
Right. All over the second serve.

Torrey Hawkins (15:49.954)
Whatever the pattern is, I don't care if it's your inside out, inside out, Yankee inside in, have a play behind it. Whether it's the go back behind him volley, whether it's the inside in, move up forward with the dropper, you gotta start putting pattern completion in your training for guys that are treeing and playing out of their mind or Yanuk center. Number three, cause he's a composite, right? He's all parts of who you'll play.

Alvin Owusu (16:11.505)
The tree.

Torrey Hawkins (16:19.808)
And the third thing I think he needs to do is I think he needs to play at least two points a game, at least two points a game where he's allowing Yannick to be the aggressor. He plays so much aggressive, take first strike tennis that he doesn't give Yannick the enough times to be the aggressor and risk. And I feel like he actually gives Yannick a little bit more of a preferable matchup and puts all the burden on himself. He needs to.

Alvin Owusu (16:45.393)
Mmm.

Torrey Hawkins (16:46.306)
to roll a little more. I didn't see as much roll in this match as I've seen before, especially on Clay. And I felt one of his best matchups was yourself in last year when he rolled so high and heavy. He took Yannick out of his strike zone. He gave Yannick not much pace until he was ready to deliver pace. And at that ball, he really got Yannick moving. He also came to the net quite a bit in that match. He did not do so as much in this match. I felt like he went bigger. Maybe he thinks he can't because it's Clay. But I'm going to tell you, I feel like he gave Yannick the preferable matchup.

by always taking the chances and it's a little easier for Yannick to defend and counter than it for him to be the aggressor and finish. And he did not give Yannick enough chances to be the aggressor to put him in those situations. He took it all. He took the risk all himself, which at some point, you know, any risk manager, God would tell you, you put yourself in risk 100 % of the time, that's not a good situation for you long-term. So those are my three. Hope, nerve. You know, obviously you got the best return in the world. You know.

Alvin Owusu (17:37.84)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (17:43.854)
Do more pattern completion and then let the other guy have a few cracks at offense and don't take all the risk yourself or your diamond. Those are my three.

Alvin Owusu (17:52.305)
Let's say the one difference between, even to further down on the first serve part, right? It's not just make more first serves, right? Because we'd all like to make more first serves. It's to your point about the risk, bring down the risk on the first serves that we're gonna take off some of the MPHs and trying to build off of that first serve because he wasn't really building off of it to begin with. So the downside is it's clay, right? So it's almost like a baseline game. Let's just feed that thing in there and get after it.

Torrey Hawkins (18:00.376)
Damn.

Torrey Hawkins (18:04.344)
crazy town.

Torrey Hawkins (18:12.718)
And it's clear.

Yeah, feed it in, go body if anything, and quit trying to, he had so many seconds, and again, the messes were minimal, they were small, but they're still messes, right? And he, Yannick, just moves up a little more. He is just an automaton when it comes to second serve returns. You know he's gonna drill you, and it's just a Herculean effort to get out of that second serve quicksand that you're in, especially if trying to hold serve.

Alvin Owusu (18:43.825)
I will say one thing that did that Yannick did a better job of today than he did at the US Open, specifically on the backhand side. You saw it on both the second serve returns and whenever Carlos did try to go high heavy to the backhand, Yannick, there aren't many players that forced Yannick to hit that hitch kick backhand, but Yannick got a lot more depth on it today than he did in New York. That was the thing, I think that was the first time we saw him have to use it, because Carlos kind of pulled it out of the bag in that final.

Torrey Hawkins (19:10.36)
Yes. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (19:13.393)
I think he, feel like he saw it coming and he actually got more depth on it. You saw him like Carlos would go inside out with it up to Yannick's back end. Yannick would kind of step in, hitch kick and take the thing right back down the line. Like being a little more aggressive from that somewhat of a vulnerable position, but I mean, Yannick's so good.

Torrey Hawkins (19:24.078)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (19:31.822)
Do you think that he did that because Carlos' pace was too high and not heavy enough? Because in my opinion in the open, I thought it was thinner. I thought his ball was higher, almost softer. And I felt like his ball today was almost too big. For me, when I looked at it, I'm like, he's hitting a little big for the on the rise ball that Carlos, sorry, that Yannick was delivering off of that shot.

Alvin Owusu (19:45.221)
Yeah, it was a little- it was also a little windy today.

Torrey Hawkins (19:58.414)
And maybe that's just maybe it's my eye, maybe it's the clay, maybe it's the angle, but it just didn't seem like the pace. It seemed like it was so much pace that it helped Yannick. That's all I'm saying.

Alvin Owusu (20:09.093)
Yeah, when they get it, the higher the tempo of the rally, the better off Yannik is. Because he zones in. Happened at Wimbledon, it's happened in matches prior, it didn't happen at the US Open. didn't get into it. He also, Carlos had a lot more sliced backhands in that match as well. Not as much today's either.

Torrey Hawkins (20:24.92)
Right. Correct. Did not change the pace up near enough today.

Alvin Owusu (20:31.409)
I mean, you could maybe say maybe it's tactics, right? Maybe it's tactics. Maybe it's like, we don't need this one. Maybe we'll try some things here and then we'll save it for French Open. I mean, I have a feeling, especially on Klay, these two are kind of head and shoulders above the rest of the field right now, not just in the aggregate, but especially on this surface. I feel like if they're both playing in the upcoming Masters 1000 events.

Torrey Hawkins (20:50.785)
for sure, for sure. Right.

Alvin Owusu (20:58.253)
We're probably gonna see them in the finals. Maybe I'm guessing probably Rome We'll see both of them Yeah, I did want to say like one thing that I noticed going back Yannick's match against Zverev actually one round prior Sasha's very backhand right? world-class world-class, He does one thing very different on the backhand side than Carlos or Yannick does

Torrey Hawkins (21:00.59)
100%.

Alvin Owusu (21:25.135)
When pulled out wide, not necessarily pulled out wide, know, ball in the outer, 25 % of the court, Sasha will use his long frame. He will cross over and hit that ball where Janik and Carlos will hit it open stance, right? Every single time Sasha Zverev stepped over to hit that backhand, he hit it cross court and Janik tagged him wide every single time. It's like, you're not fast enough.

Torrey Hawkins (21:37.856)
of competence. Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (21:48.76)
down the line, every time.

Alvin Owusu (21:52.965)
You're not getting back. You're not getting back from that shot, especially when you hit it pretty clean. But now you got to get that whole frame. He makes that crossover step with the right foot, right? It's that back end. Now the left has come around and now he's got a crossover step again, which is the same reason why we hit the open stance back end. Right. So you just say you save yourself two steps. That is a that is like when we're talking about the upper echelons of the men's game, right? That it's it's that it's two steps. It's two steps.

Torrey Hawkins (22:09.422)
We're set. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (22:19.15)
It felt small, 100%. Every single time, it's almost like a person running around a forehand going line that Novak made the whole tour pay for for 10 years. I agree with you. I thought about that same thing when I saw that same thing as well. Do remember Andy Murray used to take that hard, yeah, I know your name, Andy Murray. He used to take the backhand hard, almost inside, like middle cross body.

Alvin Owusu (22:22.031)
And Yannick read it every single time. was like, you crossed, I got you.

Alvin Owusu (22:37.915)
course.

Torrey Hawkins (22:45.504)
and he would nail it at you almost in a low shovel. You couldn't do anything with it it was low. You couldn't do anything else because it was hard and it couldn't, it didn't come up. And so you had to, and he would just feed you this nothing burger at 88, 90 miles an hour backhand, loaded to your frame, right? And I feel like if Sasha used that ball more instead of trying to go bigger cross.

Alvin Owusu (22:51.537)
I'm only sidespin.

Alvin Owusu (23:07.194)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (23:07.502)
that would be the better ball that he would have. I've seen Schillers use that ball from time to time and he's really done some good things in patterns. He's a little bit, he can be a little hot or cold on the next ball. Of course he's darn near late 30s, early 40s, but my point is, is he has that ability to crush backhand. think when Meti was playing well over the last few weeks, he has that hard ball at your body backhand. Then we go back hard cross, Yannick is just too adept at hitting that wide ball in any direction. He goes line so well, it's, it's, it all,

Alvin Owusu (23:24.997)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (23:37.418)
ought to be illegal because he had he's so good at either one you got to jam him up and not go back cross and I felt the same thing that where I felt the same thing today in today's match I felt like because you know that you almost end up over playing a little bit because you know he's so good at countering with you that that line so you end up doing some things and maybe that was part of the pressure we were talking earlier with with yet without with Carlos he he almost went inside in before he got

redirected out of line, right? He almost went dropping before he got to him a chance to, you know, and maybe that's part of that's part of the genius. I will say Darren Cahill is a tactician with the best of him. And that's not to say that Carlos' camp does not have the equivalent. It's just to say, I feel like there's been times where Yannick will make an adjustment, a tactical adjustment much faster.

Alvin Owusu (24:17.39)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (24:32.383)
and much more effectively than Carlos will. Carlos still has a little bit, I would give him the edge with athleticism, so he'll still be able to play and use his hands, his feel, speed to find another level. But at some point, you're redlining, aren't you? You're getting to that point where you just don't quite know, you're just a little bit of that comfort zone where you're trying harder, but you're not getting much more out of it. And that is to me where I saw a little of that go today. I saw a little bit of it go redline.

because he had to stay with his foot on the gas because he was a little bit worried if he didn't, he was giving that ball back to Janek. And unfortunately, I thought at the end, that was the only real mistake is that it forced him to go for more than he should have knowing that if he didn't, you know, he was probably going to get ran anyway. and lose control at that point. think that that was the reason why he was doing what he did and going for so much serves as well as.

you know, all the aggressive shots. So I love to see this. I would love to see Carlos's camp come back with a counter to what it is that Yannick can't do. And I would love to see them, you know, look at the tape, look at some things that he's not so good at and really start to kind of find out the ways that he was, where he really was vulnerable and really speak to that. Cause I feel like if he does that, we're going to be in for a treat over the next several matches and months.

Alvin Owusu (25:50.737)
So.

Torrey Hawkins (25:56.202)
in years, let alone the next few weeks.

Alvin Owusu (25:58.641)
So that's thing, I don't think that there is a, like I was thinking about that same process, like, okay, well, Kay Hill is, I think you give probably Kay Hill the coaching edge here, right? So if they go separate ways, they go to camp, they come back, I feel like right now Kay Hill is, well, even if Juan Carlos was still there, I'm still gonna give Kay Hill a bit of the edge there. But when you say, what does Yannick not do well, it's like, I don't really think it comes down to what he doesn't do well because he kind of plays.

Torrey Hawkins (26:06.84)
mouth for fear.

Alvin Owusu (26:28.145)
He kind of plays the same all the time. Like he's going to, like you mentioned, his floor is extremely high. His ceiling is not much higher than his floor. Like, and that's the beauty of his game. It's effective and it is safe and it travels well. Surface to surface, week to week. Like there's no frills about it. It is just extremely effective all the time. So you have to be special on the day.

Torrey Hawkins (26:36.035)
Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (26:42.946)
And it's consistent. Yeah. for sure.

Torrey Hawkins (26:55.448)
Academy special.

Alvin Owusu (26:56.433)
It's hard. mean the guys won three straight Masters events in a row like it We're not

Torrey Hawkins (27:00.8)
He's playing and he's number two in the world and won what? Three or four slams. We're not talking about the way of it. Right. So to my point, this brother's back. There's no question. Novak played him pretty strong in Australia by going back line every time he went line. Novak played him more aggressively than I've ever seen anybody else play him aggressively. I was impressed to see that. Now again, it's hardcore. But Novak isn't necessarily the

Alvin Owusu (27:04.369)
He'll be one of the World Cup tomorrow. it's, it's, we've, now we're, the race for Turin is, the race for Turin is on.

Torrey Hawkins (27:29.234)
the barn, you know, the barnstormer, you know, big hitter that you would think. And he beat him. I thought obviously longer match hands down in a tactical matchup that I felt that Yannick did not like the matchup that, that he brought him. Now I'm not saying that Carlos can play exactly like Novak and be that patient, that tactical and be that patient, but I felt like he gave him his own medicine. He Novak gave.

Yannick his own medicine with the redirects and the down the line. Did it earlier, did it sooner and he attacked more line, did a lot of double line and a lot of his patterns and I said, okay, he wasn't going to get into the old rope and go up cross, cross, cross. I go line. I'm going to let you kind of out counter me cross. He did that back to him. I'm going to go line early and I'm going to go line again and stretch you out and not let you get the chance to counter me because I know it's what you want to do and I felt like not only did it pay off for me, I obviously got

Alvin Owusu (28:08.411)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (28:28.014)
no backer chance to get into the final. But I felt like that style, it did not let Yanuk get the footing. I'm not saying he has a weakness. He didn't have a weakness. None of these guys have any weaknesses. But there's preferences that he doesn't, that he has, and then there's tendencies he doesn't like. And those are the areas I'm talking about where he's a little more vulnerable than the other way around. And that's all I'm saying. I feel like that you got to go back to that tape and watch all those points. Use play side, use whatever and start to just dig deep.

Alvin Owusu (28:49.979)
So let's.

Torrey Hawkins (28:57.334)
and find out what those patterns are and really hone in on those. And even go back to last year's US Open and kind of say, okay, he hasn't fixed that much. He's just caught up to what I've been doing to him. And that he's raised his level. I haven't necessarily raised mine to match. What you gonna say?

Alvin Owusu (29:14.193)
Well, I think that's the tactical nuance we're talking about. Like, one, you know, between the Cahills and the Alcarazes camp, Novak's supercomputer probably trumps all of them, right? So what did Novak do in the last two Australian Opens, right? He pulled some Novak magic from a tactic standpoint against Carlos, made him play from low inside the middle of the court and come up. That was another piece of genius last year, right? This year, he did a similar thing to Janek by not getting into those...

those kind of like, pong rallies, just like, I'm gonna keep you kind of in a box. It's not the middle of the court box, it's on the lines, right? So, and then you go back to Carlos' performance at the US Open last year, right? Not getting into that, like, not allowing the other player to do what they want to do. Okay, what are the three, what's the common denominator in those three matches? They're all in hardcore, right? And they're all best out of five. I think when you start to get into a best two out of three, right, or best of three.

Torrey Hawkins (29:49.72)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (30:11.187)
huh.

Alvin Owusu (30:12.177)
And on clay, it's harder. It's exactly click, subscribe. It's harder to like play as much straight down the line tennis, right? It just doesn't work. So while I think as good of a much of a click or maestro as Carlos is, it almost feels like that goes against him when he's playing against Yannick, like running around and hitting. Yannick would love to run around and hit, especially here on clay court, right?

And let's not pretend like Yannick didn't have Carlos dead to rights in the French Open final. He did. He had him dead to rights. Yeah, Carlos won the match, but Yannick had him dead to rights. So when we started to look at all the compilation of matches over the last 12 months, it's like the win-loss record says one thing, match by match, set by set. It's like, we're right there.

Torrey Hawkins (30:41.934)
Exactly.

Torrey Hawkins (30:47.124)
100%. Should have won. mean, that's the thing. Should have won. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (31:07.505)
You know, it's a point here, a point there separating sets and these separation of sets make matches. So I think it would be good for us to go into the French Open. Maybe good for everyone involved if Carlos can get one, like if they were to match up again in Rome or something like that, like or Madrid, like get one against him before we go into the rolling errors. But I'm here for it. What I'm not here for, it might be counterculture, Mr. Contrary here, but.

Torrey Hawkins (31:28.334)
Alright.

Alvin Owusu (31:36.785)
I don't like all this buddy-buddy after the match. Like, I don't- I'm not here for it. I need Carlos to be a little more pissed. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Torrey Hawkins (31:40.142)
Oh, come on. These two guys are feeling themselves and sharing private jets, man, and doing stuff like that only one or two in the world can do. I'm with you. I know what you're saying.

Alvin Owusu (31:46.073)
Yeah, but like it's neat.

And that's fine, but I need Carlos to be a little more pissed about losing these matches. He seems like it's like, yeah, it's okay, it's fine. It's like, I love the thrill of like being there for the competition. And that is the thing that should be driving us, but like get a little salty, like take it a little personally.

Torrey Hawkins (32:08.794)
I'm with you. just pay to me. Hey, the proof of the pudding's in eating. You know what mean? Bring it next match. I care less. If you can hang out with him, you know what mean? You can pull a Lawrence Taylor, you know what mean? As far as I'm concerned. Just bring it the next match. I'm with you. I know what you're saying. The coach of me never likes a guy hanging out with the opponent that just kicked his butt and straights.

Alvin Owusu (32:21.329)
That's fair.

Torrey Hawkins (32:35.276)
me and him are gonna go, we're gonna go shoot, we're gonna play putt-putt afterwards. Really? Really? You know, now you guys are cool. Trust me, I hated that too. But we're talking about two guys at the top in the world and you it's a whole nother talk show. I just wanna see Carlos bring it the next time they play. And I really wanna see.

Alvin Owusu (32:39.035)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:46.373)
Yeah, yeah. I'm reaching, I'm reaching.

Torrey Hawkins (32:54.922)
some tactical differences. What I don't want to see is the same inside out dropper, the same inside in forehand, the same him trying to ace you off court on clay. I don't want to see that replayed because at that point I will get worried that he's not taking it serious enough. And at that point, I think Yanuk will take will take the lead over the next several. If I see him tactically play, you remember after he got beat in Wimby?

It seemed like Carlos was pissed off and went on a tear for like the next like hardcore season. Like he came into the US Open with a mission. Shaved his hair. mean, everything changed. Like, buddy, I am taking no prisoners this whole tournament and Yannick, I'm looking for you. And you just knew he was locked in the entire tournament. That's what I want to say. I want to see it be, I want to see it mean something. I don't care what they do after the match. That's a couple of guys under 25 years old feeling themselves.

Alvin Owusu (33:28.336)
Yes.

Alvin Owusu (33:35.888)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (33:54.846)
know, savoring the moment. I get all that. I'm talking about in the, on the tennis side. I don't necessarily want to see him with the haircut again. The haircut was with little boobabuns, but I just want to see him. I just want to see the work. I want to see him, DJ Khaled, you know what mean? Put in that work.

Alvin Owusu (34:04.292)
it got the work done. It got the job done.

Alvin Owusu (34:12.657)
So when you look at this, okay, so if you go back to last year, right? So I think Wimbledon and US Open almost cancel each other out because each player, like post-French Open, Jannik was a little pissed. He came back and brought the heat in Wimbledon. Jannik got, I mean, Carlos was pissed, came back, won Cincinnati, and then brought the hammer at the US Open with a very, I mean, no back in the semis.

Torrey Hawkins (34:33.464)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (34:42.777)
Yannick in the final, a very disciplined approach to his match against Yannick. And then Yannick was like, gotta get better. And so then Yannick goes away, comes back, beats him in Turin, right? So like, but when you look at this matchup now, do you view the matches in between the slams differently? Or like, are you focused only on the, like,

You know what I'm saying like they're playing so often that like what's the Are we using these as warm-ups? Warm-ups with like little like maybe little appetizers as in like both players see that the thing that matters is when they match up in Grand Slams

Torrey Hawkins (35:11.308)
I agree with you.

Torrey Hawkins (35:23.214)
I think both of them, yes, for maybe a first or second round match with the other guys, but not with everybody else. I think it's all about tactics for the top 20, top 10, and even more so with each other. mean, those are, that is bragging rights, is points chased, that's number one. And they both know that that edge is the other one's edge into the next slam, which they both know they both want.

I think they're both chasing slams from each other. And so any edge that that gives them leads to the other one's edge. Right. So, you know, and I think you want to hold that edge as often as you can. You want to have as many edges in your own bag, you know, to get the other player. So, no, I don't think it's practice. I don't think it's advertised. I think they are 100 % going after each other. And I think that if a tactic, if a tactic worked, it worked. And therefore that means and you'll see it again. Trust.

Alvin Owusu (35:58.8)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (36:20.43)
And I think that's what's happening now. And I think that's why this match today, I think was so pivotal. It's the first big one, first big play. We got that. That's what Monte Carlo is. But now we're going to see, you know, I think, I think the gauntlet's been thrown down, you know, in Carlos's direction. All right, bro. Got you. You know, now what you got?

Alvin Owusu (36:37.969)
Yeah, it's, I mean, three masters on the trot in a row right now for Ionic. That's sick. Carlos has won the last two Gram Slams. Okay, so we're getting a dose of, you know, not necessarily one-up spins yet, but like they are obviously, they had the tour in lock for the last 30 months, right? So God bless, it's, Jesus, man, it's just.

Torrey Hawkins (36:49.954)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (37:03.982)
I think I'm more worried about the rest of tour right now because they're literally leaving them all right now. When you said that earlier, I like, I got to push back on my album. It's not that they're not getting resistance. They have just...

Alvin Owusu (37:13.265)
Yeah, it's... Alexander Zverev is effectively the Jessica Gula of the men's tour right now. Jessica Gula just, she has three losses this year and she's lost to Lena Rybakina. All three, like those are her three losses. Zverev has lost the center three straight tournaments in a row. And then he lost to Carlos, the one prior to that. So it's like, okay, I am number three. This is, I am three.

Torrey Hawkins (37:36.526)
unless I do something very different. And I think that I still feel like Zverev is the person that can do that. know, I've just, historically I love JPEG. I'm gonna always hope that she has that in her to go that distance, but I just feel like the other two are continuing to show you the next year they have. And it's, you know, that's no shame on the rest of the people. It's just where they are.

Alvin Owusu (38:02.193)
Well, I want to support that statement though, because we've made that statement before. think you, myself, even Patrick, we've all shared sentiments about feeling like Zverev has the best chance to unseat these guys. However one of you know that right now, I just assume he's going to be in the semifinals of the French Open. And people in the comments have chimed in. It's like, how can you say that he has the best chance? He keeps listening to them. It's like...

Torrey Hawkins (38:14.211)
No doubt.

Torrey Hawkins (38:21.71)
Thank you all.

Alvin Owusu (38:30.021)
Well, you can't beat someone if you're not there. I guess who's always there. He's always there. Same thing with Jessica Bagula. she, okay. The rest of them, right? It's Mehmet, Mehmet has a good week and then he flames out and gets beat double bagel by a baritone. But who keeps showing up? Zverev keeps showing up. So you can't win if you're not there.

Torrey Hawkins (38:32.782)
Yeah, him. And guess who ain't there? The rest of them. You know what I mean? So that's... Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (38:49.858)
Yeah, I would know that all day, all day.

No.

Alvin Owusu (38:59.025)
So I'm not saying anyone has a good chance of winning, I'm saying the best chance is the person who's there. Who's there the most often? That guy has the best chance.

Torrey Hawkins (39:02.937)
But who has a chance is the guy that's in the semi. That's right. He's got a 100 % better chance than the guy that lost in the quarter.

Alvin Owusu (39:13.233)
Yes, insert anyone else, the rotating door players who show up in the quarters. It's Carlos, it's Yannick, it's Alexander Zverev, and then somebody else pops in. Valentin Vachero shouts the Valentin Vachero. It's his home slam, but obviously he came to the forefront of all of our minds off of his run at Shanghai. That was fantastic.

Torrey Hawkins (39:30.562)
Yeah. It's his home slayer.

Alvin Owusu (39:41.925)
He's had a wild card in this event plenty of times before. It just goes to show you that 250 in the world is, that guy's really, really good too. And it wasn't like Valentin worked his way into the top 100 and then worked his way into the top 50. He almost won a reality show and was like, you get to be a tour player for a year, what are you gonna do with it? He's like, well, I'm gonna make quarterfinals of events regularly. That's what I'm gonna do with it. I'm gonna show you that 250 in the world.

Torrey Hawkins (40:01.39)
directly.

Go.

Right. Because I'm here.

Alvin Owusu (40:10.245)
Since I'm here, I like it, the food's better, I'm gonna stick around for a while. I'll win three matches pretty regularly, week in, week out, and look like a tour player every once in a while, Papa Simi. Yeah, I just, like, that is...

Torrey Hawkins (40:19.086)
Look like I know what I'm Yeah. I'm not a top 20 player, but I play one on TV. You know what I mean? And boom.

Alvin Owusu (40:25.303)
Exactly, and if I'm only playing matches on TV, it's little easier than playing on Challengers. It's a little more straightforward.

Torrey Hawkins (40:30.106)
Hey, man, God, he's been playing well. Anyway, I give you a point.

Alvin Owusu (40:32.879)
Yeah, can't wait to, yeah, I'm so happy to see what he's done with the opportunity. And it's not like he's just living off of that Shanghai, those Shanghai points. He's gonna be pushing, think he's gonna be, he's in the top 20, he'll be in the top 20 next week. He's, with nothing but, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (40:41.805)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (40:47.724)
He's just his hat's on. Older through, coming through this, you know, what's my song? All the way up, you know I'm saying? just, know, all the way up.

Alvin Owusu (40:53.947)
College player. Yeah, go for it. Go for it. I can't wait to talk to Chris Eubanks about this because, you know, Chris had a similar like big pop and then found it hard to, yeah, I found it hard to, you know, replicate it week in week out. And maybe there's a difference in when it happened in the year. Like, you know, it happened to Chris in the middle of the year. It happened to Valentin at the end of last year. So we had this entire year to...

Torrey Hawkins (41:06.21)
Yeah, big media rise after that tournament, yeah. For sure.

Torrey Hawkins (41:20.206)
Right, but the both were a little bit older-ish in that state. They weren't late teens, early 20s, you know what I mean? And I think that's the same thing. Vashro came out, almost came out of nowhere. Like Chris, there was a great sign I remember, and I know I'll let you finish your point. It said, like all overnight sensations, we've been at this for years. And I love the whole, I just love the whole concept of that is don't think this is this guy's first tournament. This guy's been out there for a while.

Alvin Owusu (41:41.04)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (41:48.334)
You know what mean? He had a breakthrough. It's the first time you've heard of him. But don't sleep. This guy's been out there for a minute grinding. And I think that's, know, we talked about Spazeri, Elliott, you know, in Australia. Some of these guys are just coming through, man, just waiting on a break. You know what I mean? They're hungry. They're out there trying to master the craft. And yeah, there's still some things they do or don't do well. But man, you just appreciate other players were being competitive with them at 250 and 180.

Alvin Owusu (42:13.605)
Right, for sure.

Torrey Hawkins (42:14.638)
50 and quality in the enemy that wasn't like they just every other guy just froze and said hey this guy's got a cool name Let's just let's let this guy win this week. No, buddy Listen, you know everybody's grinding and so to see a guy not just not just come from that level but get his chance and just and just the box has just been great to see and And he helps you really appreciate the ones that have kind of that have broken through and have gotten there You know, as I say, it's a little momentum. It's a little bit of you know, people say he's playing well right now Yeah, I've talked about that before but

But it's also now at staying power. Once you do that for solid six to nine months of a year, you're pretty much accepted. There's no more fluke to that. You know what I That's your normal now. That's your new normal.

Alvin Owusu (42:53.041)
Yeah.

And that's where Mr. Vashro is. Well, I think that's good. Let's put a pin in it there. The clay court season is officially off and running and those two are doing what those two do, which is entertaining us and continuing to put the rest of the tour on notice. Yeah, it's getting silly. It's getting a little silly. A little worrisome, honestly, but also, I'm not, yeah. I'm gonna keep that one to myself. I'm gonna keep that one to myself. I mean.

Torrey Hawkins (43:10.327)
and setting the bar, right? And setting the bar very high, you know what I mean? So, there it is.

Torrey Hawkins (43:23.935)
I'm looking at the aggregate. Just appreciate the... The day was awesome. That's right. Well, understand.

Alvin Owusu (43:25.009)
We're on podcast, I shouldn't I am. I am. Today was really fun. That match was fun. And if I don't look outside of that match, everything is, everything is great. Everything is great. Everything is great. Cool. Yeah. Let's put a pin in it there. I'm Alvin, that's Tori, best of three. We are out.

Torrey Hawkins (43:41.752)
Yes,

Torrey Hawkins (43:46.68)
Peace.