The Future of Men’s Tennis: ATP Young Guns Breakdown

Alvin Owusu (00:00.078)
We can do whatever we wanna do, Tori. It's our podcast. Whatever I wanna do, it's fine, it's fine. Yeah, I'm great, I'm great. It's a little post-Thanksgiving, getting back into the swing of things, but swing of things, pun intended. But we are here, I think last week, maybe two weeks ago, we did the WTA Year in Review, and now we're going to kind of.

Torrey (00:00.518)
I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. How you doing?

Alvin Owusu (00:26.432)
jump over, tackle the men's tour, and we're not gonna do it exactly the same, right? Because that would be uncivilized if we did it the exact same way. And they're very different tours in very different places right now, where we celebrate the depth of the top end of the women's game right now. It's a little bit different story on the men's side, so we need to approach it a little bit differently.

Torrey (00:30.662)
Yeah.

Torrey (00:50.041)
Yeah, I agree with that. It's a Dyson vacuum right now is what it is. Or whatever the high end vacuum you're using down there in downtown ATL. It's just, I will say on a quick caveat was thoroughly, thoroughly entertained by the Davis Cup final. That match with my main man Flavio Caboli and Haume Minar was

Alvin Owusu (01:11.534)
Wow, look at that. Look at that.

Torrey (01:18.917)
I sat in your house, Alvin, months ago. I want to say Munar was playing Yalfonseca, if I'm not mistaken, at Memory Serves. And we were, it was Wimby. And I remember us going back and forth. If not that match, we watched Hamey play somebody else and it was a decent match. And I remember saying to myself, this Munar, Munar is on a given day, top 10. On a given day, he's 60.

Can he beat that version of himself six days out of seven? Now that's the difference with him being inside the top 10. And unfortunately, he wasn't able to come through in that match, but it was some great tennis. I've never seen him play as well for that long. And I've never seen Kaboli played that well for that long. Being down, he's down by a lot. Long story, just wanted to give that shout out. I don't think we give tennis its props without the big.

to the new two that are in there. we didn't have center nor did you have Lorenzo. And as well as obviously, on the Spanish side, Carlos being on that as well. So I was very, very happy to see at least Davis Cup was literally held up by, I don't wanna say it like this, by the second tier. You know what I mean? I mean, those guys.

Alvin Owusu (02:31.735)
Carlos being out, yeah.

Torrey (02:48.165)
clearly gotta be, you gotta give them their props. But I was so impressed, Alvin, at the quality of the test. So it wasn't just like we're watching best of the rest. No, no. Those guys put on a show, man. That was an absolutely entertaining final and was very, impressed to see it minus the new two. I think that's I was trying to say.

Alvin Owusu (03:04.365)
Yeah, I think that speaks to the testament of like, well, one, Jaime Menor, let's put him to the side for second because he gets there. Like his top end is, like you said, like it could be 10 to 15. I think he might've even peaked, know, gotten around 15 to 20 at one point before he kind of went into the woods a little bit. And now he's had a full season back and he's playing good tennis. Like I saw him in Dallas.

Torrey (03:30.99)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (03:31.496)
And he, every time he plays against Ben Shelton, like he seems to own Ben Shelton. He's crafty, he absorbs pace well, he gets a little, he can lose his head a little bit at times, but yeah, he is a solid professional tennis player. And I think that's the other part of my, taking off what you just said there about Davis Cup. Like when you take out the top two, go to any 250 in the world, like you're still.

Torrey (03:35.205)
Yeah.

Torrey (03:44.131)
Right.

Torrey (03:58.371)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (03:59.278)
dealing with the best tennis players in the world. Like they are, I imagine the people who listen to this podcast are very much so aware of this, but you know, the guys who are ranked 600 in the world are also really, really good tennis players. So if it's Munnar, if it's Matteo Berettini, know, former Wimbledon finalist, if it's Zizou Bergs who played a tough one in the semifinals at Daves Cup, like Flavio Cavalli,

Torrey (04:11.812)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (04:20.245)
Right? Right? Right?

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (04:29.197)
These guys are so good. like, not, let's not, just cause we don't mention them all the time on this, in this space and give them, let's give them their, let's give the rest of the tour their, their, their just respect. Cause yeah, these guys can ball. They're all good.

Torrey (04:31.63)
Yeah. Right. Right.

100%.

Torrey (04:43.908)
And I think that's the problem with us fans as well and media in particular. We're so hyper focused on the top end that you lose that depth and that appreciation for, by the way, number two and three, number three and four aren't too bad. And you know, by the way, number 10 is don't sleep. Number 25 is, hey, all day, all day can play at the level of top 10 in the world. And I think that's...

That was all I saying. And I was actually pleasantly surprised and reminded of that watching that match. And it was good that the other guys weren't there because you weren't comparing them head to head like you like we tend to do in their presence.

Alvin Owusu (05:24.589)
Yeah, think that's a really good segue into how we're gonna kind of tackle today's, as we look back on the year and what our thoughts are. I think the only real tricky part is when are we gonna talk about those two? Those two guys. Yeah, mean, let's cover it here so we can get it out of the way.

Torrey (05:46.338)
I think we've talked about them enough to be honest. I mean, let's be real.

Alvin Owusu (05:54.35)
Those two being Carlos Ocaraz and Yannick Sinner or Yannick Sinner and Carlos Ocaraz if you are of the Italian flavor there, whatever. One and two in the world, separated by about 700 points. One played 19 tournaments, one played 18 tournaments. Both won two Grand Slams. Same thing, two years in a row. What else do we need talk about right now? Nothing.

Torrey (06:20.161)
enough say less you know i mean stay less they have proved beyond a shadow without they are the new two it's everybody it's their it's their world we're just living in it and you know i look forward to a great 2026 to see who wants to pick up the gauntlet they've thrown down so you know i mean it's they've blessed us with with some great tennis and in the wake of the the former big three which didn't always hit at the same time right the big three and now that's the beauty of the big three they weren't

Alvin Owusu (06:46.273)
Right, right.

Torrey (06:50.028)
They didn't, they were all there at the same time, but they didn't all hit at the same time. Right. So, but you appreciated their dominance and their, their, obviously their tenure, besides the obvious, you know, quality of tennis. But these two have seen, have seemingly kind of picked up in more of the Borg-McInery, you know, fashion where they've kind of come on, kind of come on the scene and to be honest have gotten better because of each other. Right. And so that's to me, what I see when I see this.

I just hope that it keeps going and unlike Borg and Mack hope they don't stop after five or six and you know and then go the way because that be a shame for the tennis fans and all of us. So who you want to talk about first? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (07:29.399)
Let me ask you this one thing before we get off of Carlos and Yannick of it all. Next year, what do you think is more likely? One of them winning three slams, the two of them splitting the four slams, like two-two, or somebody else winning a grand slam not named center or Alcáez?

Torrey (07:40.811)
Mmm.

Torrey (07:49.333)
you

Torrey (07:54.38)
Tough question. Going with my gut on this one. I'm calling another 2-2. All things aside, injury and whatever, another suspension or what have you and that sort of thing. All that aside, I see it being another 2-2. You know what I noticed? How innately competitive they are with each other that they don't want the other one getting too far ahead. And when you have that,

Alvin Owusu (07:59.032)
Another G2.

Alvin Owusu (08:19.341)
I love it. I love it.

Torrey (08:24.354)
Carlos could not say enough good things about Yanuk in that end of year, the tournament at Turin, but in the same breath was like, I'll be ready in January. And he didn't just say it then, he probably also said it after Wimbledon. He probably came back out of that.

Alvin Owusu (08:37.729)
Watch your ass.

Torrey (08:54.326)
He was determined Alvin all US Open. You could see every match he was looking to take that title. I think he probably got away with one in French, although it was a great match. It was good, but it wasn't great. And I think he threw down the gauntlet with US Open. He absolutely was playing on another level. I mean, it's a complete another level during that whole tournament. And I remember watching that match, it was personal to him. So go back to answer your question.

That will continue. You don't just shut that off. Now, could I see somebody else coming in and maybe playing? Spoiler, it's always possible, just not likely. Not at the route they're going and not at the slams. Do I see somebody beating them somewhere else? Sure. Do I see them at the slams? No, no. These guys have a date with history and they've got a Willy Wonka ticket, you know, with history and they're not turning in that golden wrapper for anything.

Alvin Owusu (09:41.655)
Sure, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (09:54.573)
All right, that's fair. Yeah, I did see the ebb and flow in in addition to the Grand Slam aspect, not even the Grand Slam aspect, but just the kind of last four or five meetings. Obviously the French Open final was, we'll put that in the pantheon, that was what it was. Wimbledon, finally, it wasn't a great match, but I think that a lot of that had to do with Jannik. Jannik played amazing, he served amazing, he was on Carlos. I mean, it took a magic trick for Carlos to win that first set, and then Jannik just like.

Torrey (09:55.392)
Am I humble opinion?

Alvin Owusu (10:24.3)
shut the door, was a fantastic display by Yannick and the rest of that match. And then Carlos with that, keep that same energy, brought it into the US Open. Like I need to get better, I need to show that I can lock it down as well. Very similar dominant performance from him. then one of our listeners commented, and I forget their name, so forgive me. I think it was a she, is Italian and was,

Torrey (10:25.441)
He really did. How do you look?

Alvin Owusu (10:53.58)
kind of given the inside of like, you know, got to take into consideration like, Jannic playing that final, yeah, they weren't playing for necessarily anything from a year end standpoint in Turin, but for him, he had just announced he was gonna, he's not playing Davis Cup, right? He's in Italy. The fans are like, it's a home match. Like, it actually meant everything to him. Like, he needed to get that W. So I think I might have said that at.

Torrey (11:03.965)
Right.

Torrey (11:09.284)
Bye.

Torrey (11:13.152)
Right. Right.

Right. On Italian soil. Sure. Sure. Good point.

Alvin Owusu (11:20.68)
Right, exactly, exactly. So like, mean, there are stakes, right? There are stakes. Every match counts. Every match is a little bit different, but you know, we as tennis fans are, we're the benefactors here. We get to see these guys play tennis moving forward. Speaking of moving forward, actually, let's start with the kind of the younger guys on the tour, right? So I've kind of broken this up into age brackets here. We got our young guns who are, you know, under 21.

Torrey (11:25.227)
Yeah.

Torrey (11:32.649)
One, two,

Torrey (11:39.838)
Yeah, yeah. Yep, yep.

Alvin Owusu (11:47.117)
We got our guys who are unfortunately born at the wrong time, ages 22 to 24. We got a group entering their prime. It's just a conversation to be had about what prime actually means these days. And then we've got the guys who are like, okay, this is it. You are in your prime. Like, where are we going? So, kind of starting with the Young Guns. Got a handful of players here and...

I think some of them, let's start with Artrofice because Artrofice is, he's on the older end here of the Young Guns. He has shown himself to be top 10 talent. Yes, he has played top 10 tennis when healthy. Now he got hurt, Roland Garros, after his knockdown drag out match with Jaime Munoz. You know what, Mr. Munoz, take a bow. You're all over the pod today, all over the pod.

Torrey (12:17.929)
Right. Right. Right.

Torrey (12:36.208)
Once again.

Alvin Owusu (12:42.796)
But I say a little bit of an incomplete when we're looking at his year. But if you look at the first six months of this year and 2024 as well, I think you start to see the way this young man is trending. And I believe we both kind of earmarked him as like if as one of the small group of players who are younger than Carlos and Janik that will look to challenge those two. Still feel that way?

Torrey (13:07.935)
Yep, yep. 100%. I also feel, and I want to say this at the outset, before you go any further with rest of the players, because they all have this ability. They also have the most to continue to develop and learn and add to the game. The players on the other side of the spectrum are pretty, you don't want to say finished, that carries with it such an ominous tone, but they're complete. That's a good word.

Alvin Owusu (13:32.278)
They're complete.

Complete players.

Torrey (13:37.639)
Yao can still develop a new side of his game, even though he's quote unquote made it into a player now. Lerner Tian, I know you're gonna talk about, know, Mensik and obviously Alex and Mikkelsen, they're all great players already, but they can still add a few wrinkles. If Lerner gets a serve, Alvin, it could be a whole different dimension. If Arthur gets healthy,

and just stays healthy and plays the full year. know, he was already on the right track. We have Insane Mensic a whole lot due to some injuries and probably getting dinged up and probably that schedule. Once you kind of break through, your schedule changes. You're in the vents a lot longer, right? You're starting to really kind of feel the throws of the tour. This, which has happened to guys that were already top 10, top 20. So of course the guy who's breaking in top 20, now you gotta play the same schedule. There are so many things if some of these guys can still get better.

So that's the one piece that I feel why I feel that they are so dangerous is that, and they got nothing, they had nothing but heart and I'm gonna try this, know. Where I feel like some of the tried and true and your whole this is it category, they're still hoping that they're good enough is good enough. And they're probably not gonna do anything too crazy or too drastically different than what they've done before. If history serves as any.

is an indication of what we've already seen.

Alvin Owusu (15:05.868)
Yeah, I'm with you there. I'm definitely with you there. And that's kind of the benefit of being, it's the benefit of being young, right? It just is what it is. I kind of want to start with, I kind of want to start with Lerner Tien, right? So Lerner is 19 right now. Obviously this is his first, yeah, I mean, it's his first full year on tour. And I think he might be turning 20 relatively soon actually, but first full year on tour and he's gone from sort of the year at 122 into the year at 28.

Torrey (15:13.883)
A young guy? sure. Yeah.

Torrey (15:23.685)
That's hard to Yeah.

Torrey (15:30.204)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (15:35.564)
back to title at the end of the year as well. It's interesting in that there aren't a lot of guys at his stature size-wise who are actually doing it on the tour at this level. I don't know, I'm not gonna say that I struggle with seeing him as a top 30 player because like you said, if he gets a serve, watch out. And this is kind of like back to our conversation, and you made this point months ago about

Torrey (15:44.007)
Right. Right.

Torrey (15:59.877)
All bets are off.

Alvin Owusu (16:05.067)
like your experience with Novak when he was in juniors. He couldn't serve and he couldn't volley. And then you fast forward through his career and if you're fortunate enough or you're diligent enough to be able to play a long career, you can incrementally get better. Like if you're an NBA player and you have a 15 year career, that's a pretty long career, but if you're a 15 year career and you start off as a 28 % three point shooter,

Torrey (16:12.733)
And the forehand was... The forehand was a dab.

Alvin Owusu (16:34.251)
If you get half a percent better every year, now we're touching close to 40 by the end of this thing. We can get better. We can get better. I think Lerner will get better. He has no choice. don't know if having Michael Chang as his coach is gonna be much, much helpful.

Torrey (16:43.709)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (16:48.989)
I

Torrey (16:55.228)
Yeah, he won't be given a minute you've served it perhaps but at the same time it certainly bodes well for him being in that in that camp and I feel like all the bright tennis minds around him are all going to be saying the same thing right and they're going to be making sure they work on those weaknesses and making sure he gets that up but look at what he's done already he's got the confidence that hey if I'm this good without a serve imagine with the serve and that's all again and there's two other things he could probably get better at in general but

Alvin Owusu (17:18.688)
Right.

Torrey (17:24.785)
Dude, has he not already shown us a, that's some heavy lifting, Alvin. To move almost 100 spots in a year and the other guys aren't getting worse. That speaks for itself. To your point, can he get much higher? Well, we'll see. Probably not without a serve and a few other pieces to his game. But Alvin, this kid's done a lot already and I'm excited to see what he brings in next year.

Alvin Owusu (17:45.856)
Yeah, I think that's the big one, right? And with him, one of the most attractive parts about his game is that it's very dissimilar from everyone else's game. He reminds me of, he's a bit of a throwback in that he's going to play from the baseline, like behind the baseline, but not in a very aggressive manner. was, you know, would say watched him play on TV a good bit. I've seen him in person on two different occasions. Junior Australian Open in 2023.

Torrey (18:05.18)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (18:15.039)
I was on site for week two and the juniors were playing so I went out and watched him and I was like, yeah, handsy, crafty, like as a lefty would be, but lacking firepower. And then you fast forward all the way to Australian Open this year. He's playing in the senior event and he's right there with taking Meddy out in the second round, which I guess was this formal introduction to the general population of tennis fans, which, you know,

Torrey (18:17.808)
Yeah.

Torrey (18:36.604)
Ready? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (18:44.629)
A lot of us have seen it before that, but yeah, the ability to play in spaces and kind of like maneuver his way through points without a ton of power, I think is something that a lot of players would be benefit, they would be better off if they could do it. And so now he just has to add some of these things, which is, that's pretty cool.

Torrey (19:03.312)
Yeah.

Torrey (19:09.575)
He reminds me of a former top five player that also didn't have a ton of firepower. Russian player, I might add. There's my one hint. Never very, not lefty, but was righty. But was, yeah, it's pretty simple. He absorbed pace, was absolute.

Alvin Owusu (19:23.115)
Mmmmm

Alvin Owusu (19:28.587)
Can I guess?

Torrey (19:39.26)
death to play. mean, never gave anything, held baseline, used your pace against you, was pretty good off both wings, but never really overpowered you. You know what I mean? And that's what this game reminds me of. And with just a little bit of a touch of Marcelo Rios in there, but Marcelo was so heavy, but he was handsy. And we're obviously, you know...

David Ingo was a lot more straight through the ball and hit the ball, you know, obviously a lot cleaner, a lot bigger, but he reminds me a lot more of David Ingo than he does of any other player that I've seen in a while. And that style was also, as it was then, was difficult to match it because his ball wasn't pure flat, big, it wasn't heavy and spinny. It was just clean, you know, and because his pace wasn't there, I've always said, I said this about Dominion.

Alvin Owusu (20:17.247)
Yep, yep.

Torrey (20:34.203)
Donald Young was so good because people kept talking about his ball needs to be little bigger. I'm like, I don't know about that. He's pretty darn fast. So my whole foot speed and ball speed equation, it made Donald that much faster because he could run down the ball at the same speed, roughly, know, theoretically that he was hitting at. And so had he hit the ball bigger, you know, you talked about Chang earlier, Chang got a little worse when he got bigger and stronger and he was starting the ball bigger. know, Chang was just fine at the pace he had.

Alvin Owusu (20:44.171)
Yeah, yeah

Torrey (21:04.027)
you know, the way to the French final, know, he was doing great. When he got bigger, he almost out hit himself a little bit. Some of his genius wasn't as good because his ball was not a tad bit better. So I don't know. I just feel that sometimes, you know, don't mess up. Don't mess up the sauce too much. You know what mean? When you're looking at can he he add a syrup for sure? Can he add some other finishing touches? And that he already comes that decent. He has good hands. But can he?

and not take away, right? Can it be a net positive, right? And not just, he's doing this better, but now he's losing the long rally. You know what mean? That to me, take away something from his game.

Alvin Owusu (21:39.947)
Right, Okay, fair, fair. Wanna keep bouncing around here. Yalfonseca. Okay, very similar trajectory actually to Lerner Tien. Started the year at 145, ended the year at 24, was able to pick up a title there towards the back end of the year in the fall. I I was just thinking about him this morning, because I was in the gym and they were, Tennis Channel was replaying his match against

Torrey (21:45.39)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (22:09.17)
Andre Rublev from the Australian Open. What a, that was a great match. Like a, one of those welcome to the party type of like announce yourself kind of matches. Two tight sets, went to tiebreakers. But I think everyone points to him and I guess me included as like that's, this is the guy. He's got all the things, he's got all the tools.

Torrey (22:21.252)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (22:37.874)
seems to have the right mindset. He's got enough distance like from age-wise from the big two right now. do we consider his, from all that we've, you know, heaped onto him in the last 12 months, have we seen enough?

Torrey (22:57.015)
Enough for what?

Alvin Owusu (22:58.794)
I feel like ending the year at 24, like if you start at the year where he was and then you go, okay, what is a good, where should he be Australian Open 2026? And in my head, it's, let's not get ahead of ourselves here, but like he should be seated at a Grand Slam, right? So he will be. He has that kind of talent. Like can he get himself into the top 35 by the end of the year? Which he's done. But he hasn't really blown the doors off at a

at a grand slam quite yet.

Torrey (23:32.612)
Do I think we've seen enough? Yes. Is the potential there? A thousand percent. I take a different track with Yow and I take the same track with lot of players that are like him. They are, I see him being a little more on the long-term track than on the near-term track. And the reason being is he takes so many more chances. He's going to tag the ball, period, end of story. He's going to learn nuance. He's going to learn field. He's going to learn when not to.

have to blow through everybody. That's going to take a little bit of time. He's going to learn how to transition better. He's going to have to, but up until this point, he hadn't had to, right? So he's going to continue to go through two players. I'm going to bring you back to Alvin. One is a Boris Becker who was boom boom was his nickname of all things. So, and it's safe for the two titles he won on the grass at a young age.

Alvin Owusu (24:09.354)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (24:28.536)
He really didn't do much on the tour as far as Grand Slam concerned until about four or five years later until his game got truly good and developed. I see Yao being a little more, a little closer to that track. Another player that I thought that did well and started getting a lot better as he got a little older while he was getting, he was still on the younger side is Delpo. I think Delpo again also crushed the ball, hit the ball absolutely massive and it took Delpo. Mind you, Delpo had some injuries and some other things, but

I felt like Del Poe, got a player that tags the ball as big as he does. And you look at all the big hitters in times past, it just crush. Those guys tend to be high risk, high reward, but occasionally, right? So what I hope we don't do, hope what I don't do is heap so many expectations on this young player that we, you know, almost we're, we talk him into having get good overnight.

He's going to continue to bake and just cook and get better and get better. don't think, do I see him beating one of the top four or five this year? I do. Do I see him winning a slam this year? No, no, not even close. Not yet. And that's not to say that he can't. It's just, I don't think his game is that complete yet. And I feel like in the next two to three years, he'll be there. He'll have the rest of it all worked out.

without sacrificing what he's doing. I could see Lerner knocking off somebody good on their bad day more so than Yow. Yow just has that kind of ball, man. He's just a banger, man. He tags the ball. And I hope he doesn't run into the Rubalev cliff, you know, that plateau. Because I think that's what happened to Andre. He got there so, hitting the ball so big, I felt like Meti reached a little bit higher level success, even though they're both friends and rivals from a long time back.

Alvin Owusu (26:08.212)
Ha ha ha!

Torrey (26:24.535)
because Rubalev continued to double down on what he best, which is pace. And I'm hoping that he doesn't do that. And if anything, I'm hoping he can learn from his elder statesman that, hey, while you can, develop the other side, develop a good B game. And up to this point, we haven't had to see it because that's what he does well. But that's why I'm gonna not place any expectations on him too much, at least not right now, but I look forward to seeing his work in progress.

Alvin Owusu (26:53.226)
Yeah, I'm with you there. The Rublev comparison is an interesting one. Actually the Delpo comparison is a really interesting one. It's almost like big men in basketball, right? It takes them a little bit longer to put the whole thing together. You know, I think, could we, if we look at this same conversation a year from now, if we've seen Yao kind of make second week of two different Grand Slams, because when we start talking about success in the Grand Slams, right, which is probably the ultimate,

Torrey (27:03.554)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (27:23.336)
the ultimate marker of greatness that we've agreed upon here. It's not just the ability, that's just the quality of tennis that you were able to produce. It's like you gotta do it three out of five and you gotta do it for two weeks, right? So there's, when you're night.

Torrey (27:33.496)
against ever better level of competition round to round.

Alvin Owusu (27:37.099)
Right, and there's also a fitness aspect to this too, right? Like he hasn't had a full season playing best out of five, like training to play best out of five set matches. He qualified into the Australian Open where he was able to take out Rublev, right, and then made a decent run to, I guess he lost to Sonigo in the very next round, right? So that's kind of the next evolution for him. Like do we get ourselves ready to make deep runs in Grand Slams consistently?

Torrey (28:03.103)
Right. Right. If he made one deep run into a slam this year and was respectable third round, you know, at the other two of the three, that would be a huge year for him and huge progression. You see what I'm saying? You know, I felt like even when Ben broke out a few years ago and had that phenomenal run. Quarters, right? He lost the no-back in the quarters. Two years ago, was it? is it? Yes.

Alvin Owusu (28:20.927)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (28:30.474)
Semis, semis, yeah.

Torrey (28:32.586)
I almost, and we talked about this, it almost hurt his next year. You know what mean? It hurt his next year because it was, he almost reached a little farther than he thought. Probably before his game was really ready to do. And I feel like in the ensuing two years, he, know, much was credit. We talked about this podcast. He's got the other parts. He's got the slice down. He's got, he's, he's returning better. He's starting to play himself in into matches more. He's not all, he's not all go. He has, he has the ability to make some balls. His back is cleaned up.

Forint isn't always a gripping rep. He's working the point like he should. And he's still hitting that laser beam, still hitting that photon bomb, like always. But I feel like he can't look at that, well, I had semis two years ago, three years ago now, I should be, no, just keep getting better. Take that as it was. now, Ben's legit, knock on the door, top five, if not already, in the world. hey, and I think he's the better for it. You see what I'm saying?

Alvin Owusu (29:09.502)
Yeah.

Torrey (29:32.247)
keep getting there steady. It ain't not that you wouldn't take a semi if somebody handed it to you, you know what I mean? You're not gonna turn it down. I just feel like from the young guns, I'm looking for continued progress in their game, not just in the rankings and their results. Are they getting better? Can I look at them and say, he's two years better inside of a year. That's the ultimate compliment I can give a young player. He's 18 months better in this last nine months. You don't get that and that comes from some wins, some training.

Alvin Owusu (29:51.775)
Right.

Torrey (30:01.43)
A lot of belief, but my point being, if I could keep saying that the next year and then the next year, then this then these, you know, these guys are they're headed, they're headed for top for the top three in the podium, because that's where they're just they're just not stopping the getting better portion of the game. So that's to me. I'm more big on or is that happening more than the more than the rankings in the rounds that they win in slams?

Alvin Owusu (30:26.082)
Sure, sure, but I'll just say that the performance and the Grand Slams, they operate as very nice checkpoints.

Torrey (30:34.115)
there's certainly metrics, nothing wrong. And your valid, your point, they definitely are the metric to be measured. I'm just saying for them and only for them, I'm saying I hope that they keep getting better as much as I hope to see them get deep into the slams, is all I'm saying. Where the other categories, they better make some traction. They've been out there enough to see it, is all I'm saying.

Alvin Owusu (30:50.792)
Yeah, so for someone like a

Alvin Owusu (30:56.016)
Right, yeah. And for Fonseca, mean, he two second rounds, two third rounds this year in Grand Slams. Like, could we turn that into two third rounds and two fourth rounds? Now we're talking about that. That is market improvement, and that's how, if he does nothing else different, that's how he continues to go from where he was at beginning of this year to 24 now. Okay, now maybe we start moving our way into the top 20.

Torrey (31:03.039)
Right. Yeah, pretty good. Right.

Torrey (31:22.569)
That's right. Right. And, right. And defending. We can't forget that. And defending some of the results that he's had, which is always tough for some young players. So, I agree. And I think both the all throw, all these guys are going to do great. you know, I hate, I just want to see them keep getting better. And I like to see them continue to climb. You know what I mean?

Alvin Owusu (31:23.004)
making a push next year into 2020, 2026, 2027.

Alvin Owusu (31:48.042)
Yeah, and I think that kind of takes us a nice segue into both, we'll kind of cover Jakub Mincek and Alex Mickelson here. know, obviously, yeah, let's go with Mincek first, because think he had that kind of jump off the page, Miami Open, where he won the Miami Open, beat Novak 6-6 in the final, like that was his crowning achievement there in the year, and then things kind of got away from him a little bit, but still finished the year top 20.

Torrey (32:03.483)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Torrey (32:14.005)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:18.043)
another one of those guys that has all the tools, all the stuff that you're looking for in a who is this, who's going to carry the torch for the next generation and challenge the big two. But I think the thing that we've seen kind of repeatedly is it seems to be a fitness issue with him. Like he just can't get past some of these Mendoza marks within tournaments.

Torrey (32:43.765)
Let me ask you this, you say got away from him. Had he had not won Miami, would you have said that about the rest of, let's say he lost that match to Taylor Fritz, would you have said the same thing or because he beat Fritz in that long match and beat Novak, did that and his jump off the page, would, does that put higher standards slash expectations on him from you?

Alvin Owusu (32:46.343)
in it. Yeah, go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (33:10.793)
Okay, so you're asking me if he didn't, let's say he lost in the, so he beat Taylor in the semis, if he had lost to Taylor and he semi-finaled the event and didn't win it, does that change my expectations of him? mean, geez, if he doesn't win that event, like we're talking, we're probably still talking about him. He's probably gonna finish the year somewhere around 40 if we don't, if he doesn't, if he didn't get that 1,000 points there. So.

I think that's a really, really good question.

Hmm. Are you asking me is it closer to the player? that this was that an outlier? Was that an outlier is that?

Torrey (33:44.745)
Because to me, I see that as a feature.

Torrey (33:50.357)
think at least this year, at least this year and and don't get me wrong. I think he's gonna be great. I just again, he's these big these big hitters man when they get hot. He could he could stay hot for that for that seven eight days. You know what I mean? And or sorry, almost done in two weeks with with you know with the sunshine slams the mini slams. I don't know. I think that was his Ben Shelton semi of a few years ago and of the Australian Open. It was a little bit.

taller cotton than he may have been ready for at the time. I think he's a semi-finalist-ish and talent for this year. Just happened to be playing so darn well and took everybody by storm. To me, his, if you will, lost his way a little bit, was a little closer to his low end and not, and he just happened to have his high end while he was during Miami. And that's not taking anything away from him. It's just to say, you when you're at that level, Alvin,

your range as a player is pretty substantial. You could be top 20 on a given day, maybe higher. You could also be 70 on a given day as far as the consistency of things.

Torrey (35:07.61)
What I'd like to see from him is not just the fitness, but start to just get the year, your year fitness in. Be able to play, what's guy's playing? 80 to 90 matches a year? You know what mean, give or take? Can we get 80 matches a year tough? Can we really start to understand where we're trying to go with all of this? And then out of that, and we'd like to have 10 to 12,

Alvin Owusu (35:22.515)
Yeah, some of them, yeah.

Torrey (35:36.671)
many peaks around some of the slams. And then, of course, you'd like to see him, to your point, make some dust in some of these slams as well and start to really, especially the hard courts, which he seems to be a little more comfortable on. So I think Yacob's gonna be great, I really do. And I think he's got the confidence from that. Again, just feel like I don't wanna, hence my question, are we measuring him a bit too much off of one of his outlier?

performances. If you had told me after that semi of Ben that I think Ben was ready to be top three or four in the world, I would say absolutely not. He's not ready. Do I think he will get there one day? I think one day very soon, but not then. And here we are two years later, almost three years later now. Guess what? know, Ben is knocking on the door, if not already, as a top five in the world player and getting sets off the big two, which to me is a huge deal, which I don't think he was.

technically there. He kind of got routine by Novak in that tournament. You know what mean? Where I could see him now. He's as I said before, he's one of the up and comers, up and comers, not by your chart, that can actually take down a Zverev, a Novak and so on because of what he has to offer where he was in my opinion, a years ago, was Australia, not even close.

Alvin Owusu (36:54.333)
Yeah, I think we have to judge these players, like kind of back to your original question, based off of what they show us, right? So very, very similar to a, what has happened in this, even in this year, going back to Indian Wells, right? Jack Draper won Indian Wells, and then Mnzik right behind him wins Miami, so like, now we judge them through that lens. Granted, Jack, in the prior year, semifinal,

Torrey (37:03.891)
for sure.

Alvin Owusu (37:24.073)
US Open, beat Carlos in the warm up event before Wimbledon had shown that he had the ability, which is kind of the same thing that we're talking about here with Mensik, right? Like, you show me something and then all I can do is judge you against your own performances. And it wasn't just that he won the event. My man was serving at about 80 % first serve clip, winning tire breakers left and right.

Torrey (37:34.595)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey (37:39.949)
Yeah,

Alvin Owusu (37:52.11)
Mr. Miami out here. It was it was a fantastic performance fantastic performance take it away and He's still yeah, he's still a top 40 player at the age of 19 that we're still taking a look at But with that it's like okay now the the expectation the bar is just a little bit higher

Torrey (37:54.413)
Yep, 100%.

Torrey (38:03.286)
Right. Right.

Torrey (38:08.344)
The bar is little higher and that's fair. Ask me how many tournaments a guy can serve 80 plus percent for seven to 10, 12 day straight. I'd be like, very few, but that happened to be his. That's all I'm saying. I think he's gonna be great. I really do. But to me, it also explains the other half of the year to me a little bit, because you can't play that well that often. So I agree with you, but I think he's gonna be very good and he's huge. mean, so it's not guys.

Alvin Owusu (38:16.873)
I mean, like.

Torrey (38:38.257)
He's not short on much. I look forward to seeing him progress this next year as well.

Alvin Owusu (38:44.221)
Yeah, kind of last one here, Alex Mickelson. Kind of popped on the scene there, takes out sets of pass in the Australian Open and not just took him out, like took him out like he didn't even see Stefanos as competition. Like Alex was walking around that court like this is my court. I own this space, which was awesome to see. we've got some, we might be getting some of the Mickelson camp here on the pod in the next, during this off season a little bit.

Torrey (39:09.803)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (39:13.053)
friends of the pod, but yeah, but not, I think Alex went through the rest of the year still kind of same story, learning how to be a pro on the pro tour. And that is, there's all, there's the stuff that we talk about, which is the exciting stuff, the exciting matches, the exciting results, but this is also a job, right, for these guys. And you have to learn how to do the job and part of the job, the vast majority of the job is not only being a good tennis player, because all these guys can bowl.

Torrey (39:24.693)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (39:42.739)
but can you manage yourself throughout the course of a year so that you give yourself the best chance to perform? And we've talked to some people in his camp and they're working really, really hard right now and fitness is obviously a key focus for a big fella like that. You gotta be able to move and move repeatedly for 45 weeks out of the year at a very high level. But from a tools in the bag standpoint, your thoughts on Mr. Mickelson?

Torrey (40:02.324)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey (40:09.535)
All day, all day. There was an old Western movie, Peter Fonda played in it called Cool Hand Luke. And it wasn't just that he was a gunslinger, it was the cool way that he did it. He was just so laid back and that's what Alex reminds me of. Just very chill, very, he has a little bit of a, he and Taylor have similar personalities in that way. And I think Alex is even more, he can get fired up.

but he's a little more, even a little more, a little more cally, little more laid back. And I just like his approach to the game. And I think that he, he'll, you know, surface style, he'll, he'll ride the waves when they're there and then think too much about the losses if they, if they come. And and I liked that approach to him. I think his, you know, huge forehand, serve and he's a big kid. You can always build off that. I think again, are the things he can continue to get better at for sure. All big guys need to work more on returns as far as I'm concerned. obviously,

being subtle the backhand side and just defending off that side. I think he's going to be great though. It's tough to get a bigger guy to learn how to defend when he or she hasn't defended much. And they get to this point now they have to now, right? And you realize that it's not they can't do it. They just haven't had to. And now that they have to, right? You start to see what they can develop.

Alvin Owusu (41:25.628)
Right.

Torrey (41:37.43)
to my discussion earlier when I was talking about they can still get better. So I think you can do it. think all these guys and almost with the exception of Lerner, every one of these guys are a good bit at six feet. If not, I know Minsik and Alex are six four, six five. mean, these guys are some big boys. I think we're old at six, six two, give or take. you got that they're big enough that they cover a lot of chord and they have the opposite.

Alvin Owusu (41:52.078)
Big dudes. Big dudes.

Alvin Owusu (41:59.081)
This is probably, yeah, I it a lot too.

Torrey (42:07.382)
the limbs to create a lot of leverage. to me, let him get his legs under. Let him be able to defend and get a full year or another year under his belt. I have no problem with Alex. I could see Alex being top 20, top 15, end of the year, no problem with his talent. Now the only problem is you got the other top 30 guys to worry about who aren't getting pushed out anytime soon. So you're have to elbow somebody out. know what I mean? And that's what makes this.

This game's so difficult.

Alvin Owusu (42:38.248)
That's a really good point you raised though about having to build out new skill sets that you haven't had to use before. We use basketball now, we use basketball here a lot on the podcast as a of a comp for tennis, but same thing with big dudes. Like, you take Shaquille O'Neal being the biggest example of this, just like, all right, I'm big in high school, I'm big in college, I catch the ball down low, turn around dunk on people. But when you get to the next level,

As you continue to go up levels, you meet the other big people who then push you out a little bit further. You gotta add the jump hook, right? You gotta add some of the spin moves. You gotta learn to work off the ball, like all those kind of things. And you don't have to, you don't have the ability to learn these things until you're kind of put in position where you have to learn these things. And I think it's great that you've got Lerner and Alex, know, Team SoCal stand up. They're holding up that Carson facility by themselves right now, with Taylor as well.

Torrey (43:08.617)
Yeah. Right.

Right.

Torrey (43:22.741)
correct.

Torrey (43:31.178)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (43:35.814)
That's a very interesting point about like not having to use those defense skills before. Now you have to do it at a high level, especially with these guys who are turning defense into offense, literally on balls that have no business being turned defense into offense. And ergo, now Alex has to be able to do it as well. The bar goes up, you have to continue to raise your skill set as well. So I think that's a...

That's a really good observation, really good observation. Let's do this. Let's take a quick break and then we will come back and we'll move into the guys who just happened to be born around the same time as Mr. Center and Mr. Alcares.

Torrey (44:17.877)
Perfect.