The New Middle Class of Men’s Tennis | ATP 2025 Review Part 3

Torrey (00:00.331)
Because I see you looking around sometimes. You must have like four monitors. I bet you are.

Alvin Owusu (00:02.954)
Yeah, no, I'm not gonna reveal my secret sauce. I've got, it's one, let's just say this, I'm monitoring. Let's put it that way. I am monitoring. Maybe I'll even do a, I might do a little, what is this, BTS is what they call it. I'll just take a picture and let you see what I see. Boom, there's a lot going on there. There's a lot going on there.

Torrey (00:21.044)
Yeah, behind the scenes, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I believe it.

Alvin Owusu (00:29.326)
But we're back, regardless we're back. This is the third installment for our ATP 2025 year-end review. We're kind of, we're popping through this bad boy kind of in age order, right? In our first installment, we talked about the Young Guns 19 to 21. Then we talked about the Alcaraz Center age cohort in our most recent segment. And now we're gonna talk about

the players that are entering their prime, I wanna kind of talk about that in itself, because I remember, maybe this is almost a year ago, maybe nine months ago, when we had Bobby Reynolds, head coach of Auburn University on the podcast, he obviously, former top 50 player, top 60 player on the ATP Tour, and he was talking about, we were talking about primes.

when he gets players into his program versus when their actual prime is. And that thing always stuck with me. said players are at their prime around 27, 28. And so when we start to look at players on the Pro Tour right now, and if 27, 28 is the prime, then 25, 26 is entering. But I'm not quite sure if that's necessarily still the case with the prime being that late. It feels like it's actually a little bit earlier.

is how do you feel about that and how does that color what we're talking about today?

Torrey (02:04.209)
It's a great, great debate.

Everybody sees things through the lens, through their own lens, right? Bobby, of course, saw that at his lens when you factor in a good college player who's played at least two years, maybe three, which he did. And did quite well, by the way. Shout out to my main man, Ray. He was entering his prime, 26, 27, 28, just starting to hitch drive.

Alvin Owusu (02:12.27)
Mm.

Torrey (02:37.533)
had a mentor once tell me that it's going to take you five years on the tour just to get yourself acclimated to the tournaments, the schedules, the surfaces, the altitude, the food, you name it, the travel in general, knowing what we used to pick for and not. You'll have a good week, have a bad week. said, you got to give yourself five years. And that was, he was adamant on that. He was adamant and he had been on the tour himself for about five, six years. And he said,

I had more success in my last couple than I had in the first two or three. And he said he was lucky enough to play that ball. This player didn't crack 300 points, but he was saying just to get out that level. And I feel this player also. At a very, very solid hand, a solid hand, not only in Bobby's development, but also in tennis in general. And I always respected David Drew's advice on that.

But it was also his perspective. Bobby, very similar to David. They both went to Vandy, both were top players at Vandy. Was they both understood and had that same four, five year on the tour mindset. So I'm Bobby Reynolds. In this school that, you know, I he, I think he left on the tour for his last year, if I'm not mistaken, after he got to the finals in double A's. think he was 21, give or take. Add five years to that.

Alvin Owusu (04:01.729)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (04:04.521)
But you have 26, not quite 27 years old. So I agree with his math. The problem is what if you didn't play college? You're lucky enough to forgo college and go straight there, which, you know, a lot of people in this list and the list we had before did not. I know there's players on the list like Surrender Lowe and Norrie and others and Jacob Farron Lee and others that have gone to school. Right. But I think David Drew's point is well said because

Alvin Owusu (04:07.351)
Right.

Torrey (04:35.484)
There is a three to five year window. Those players have to kind of give it a shot to be out there. So as far as the prime is concerned, I think that prime registers a little more on how long you've been on tour, not necessarily the age. That's where I would draw the caveat for me. Let's say you.

Alvin Owusu (04:52.779)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (04:58.711)
So there's a, there's part of this where it's like, I'm picking up what you're putting down and obviously I know Bobby and I know David and so I understand the thought process here and I like the idea of it's time on tour to hit your tour peak, right? Or to hit your prime on being on tour, right? And so there's a lot of things that go into that, right? You need, you probably need five good years of going around this.

and going around the calendar five times to get a grip of all of it, knowing where you can perform well, knowing how to handle yourself. Being a professional tennis player, got it. There's also the physical part of it. When we hit our physical peak, that has very little to do with how long we've been on tour. That has a lot to do with our maturation. So now you could say someone who turns pro and is on a tour at age 18,

Torrey (05:44.444)
Good

Alvin Owusu (06:00.461)
versus someone who turns pro and is on tour at 21, they're gonna be training differently. And so where they are three years later or four years later, 22 versus 25 will look different, but maybe not all that different. Maybe at that point it doesn't really matter much. I don't know. But I like the idea of needing that much time, but then also,

We're also talking about levels of player here. Maybe five is for most players. For the truly great ones, it doesn't take them that long. And we talked about this last year, I think in December. For players who win multiple Grand Slams, you look at when they win their first one. Warenka is the outlier. 19 is about normal. That's not five years. To win their first one, that's not five years on tour.

Torrey (06:54.791)
to win their first one. Sure, sure.

Alvin Owusu (06:58.285)
That's usually within the first two or three years on tour. They'll pop that first one and then go on to win multiple more. So I think it's more of a, it's more of a, maybe a precursor to like what level, what your top level is. If you can't hit that level until 28, then maybe your, maybe top 50 is about where you're gonna go. I don't know. Where, mean, we're seeing it happen right now with Bublek. Like Bublek's getting it together and.

We'll talk about him in another, much later on, that's kind of where I'm thinking.

Torrey (07:32.231)
I'm going to add to that and push back on that because I think you raised two great points. Number one, you raised the point about the player that was on tour versus the player that went to college. Huge difference, both in schedule, volume, and everything else. And I still feel the same thing holds true that five years. And again, we're talking three to five years. I don't want to put hairs here, but that's important to understand.

Alvin Owusu (07:44.045)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (08:01.891)
also think the second point you brought up was some of the great ones and how early they win one. We have been in such a vacuum, such a great, greatest of the greats vacuum that our stats in my opinion are now skewed. I would push back Alvin, they are skewed both ways. Early winning of a slam and how long the career is.

Alvin Owusu (08:21.965)
Yeah.

Torrey (08:32.792)
We have pushed the prime back to allow for players that are winning slams quote unquote outside of the prime because 32, 33 was now the new prime. I would argue that that is only for the greats who were already pretty good. So that's what I'm saying.

Alvin Owusu (08:56.301)
So are you arguing both sides like night? I mean, just the late in. Sure, sure.

Torrey (09:00.26)
No, I'm, I'm arguing take the, take the greats out of it. And I think the prime is still right dead smack in the middle, five years on tour is what I'm saying. The, the, the greats skew too much of the data every single direction. That's what they do. They're the outliers. And so I feel like, you know, you're talking about, well, there's always another way to get there. But Rick in particular, I think, don't think Chilach was that, was that young when he won his first one up there.

There's just a lot of players. We keep looking through the lens of the absolute great. And in my opinion, buddy, Novak has won slams from 19 to what 34?

Alvin Owusu (09:45.409)
Yeah, or maybe, yeah, yeah, something like that, 35, yeah, yeah.

Torrey (09:47.398)
As far as slants, 35? You can't quantify that! Anyway, that's all I'm saying. What say you?

Alvin Owusu (09:56.672)
No, no, no, I just thought that you said something that really caught my attention is like the greats are skewing this. But the greats are the only ones that win grand slams. Like pretty good doesn't win a slam. Okay, fair, guess Chillich is the example here, but like.

Torrey (10:08.774)
up up up to this point. so so Joe Luch is a pretty good player as as was Roddick and when did Roddick win when oh three how old is Andy now he's got to be 43 during that time he'd have been on tour for three years there's there's your three to five I'm just saying and I'm not fitting the numbers to match my my my point I didn't realize he was I thought I was a little older actually but to my point and I think you and I both know

Alvin Owusu (10:21.101)
It was like 20, 21. I think he turned 21 during that tournament.

Torrey (10:38.617)
He played better tennis after he won that slam, right? So it just happened to be during the time of Roger and the time of Rafa coming on the scene, getting to his catching his drive. Take Roger, this is a big ask, Roger, Rafa and Novak out of the mix. And if you were to detail the others and their actual prime, we're talking slam finishes, we're talking winning 1000s and such.

Bet you'd have an age range depending on time on tour where most of those players were closer to the five mark and within the seven to eight year mark and not much past it. Now that just biologically limits pre 30, right? Just most of them you were going to college or no, right? Or coming out when you're younger is going to put you either at 21 to 26 or 18 to 23 and so on. So it's still going to giving you that

Alvin Owusu (11:35.884)
Right.

Torrey (11:37.637)
that timeframe eight being your cap, that's still putting you at 29. You know what mean? So I say it to say that to me limits that. The greats Novak, Roger, Rafa, who continue to win late.

you the length of prime because we're not talking about prime per se. We're talking about the length of their prime. We're talking about the length of their greatness really in my opinion and how they found a way to play regardless of a step. No different than no different than Chris Paul, LeBron James, know, and Steph Curry had been able to play at a high level in the NBA, right? Michael Jordan himself played until he was darn near 40. But

Alvin Owusu (11:55.639)
The length of the prime. Yeah.

Torrey (12:21.602)
He was doing much, a whole lot more fade away jumpers than he was coming down, coming down, doing shaking bacon and rocking you to go into the rack and getting 63 and 72 on Boston when he was, when he was a year or two into the league. So I say it to say to still know the basketball comparison, they can still play at a high level. They are good enough to know the game enough. And you could even bring up, bring out some of your football grades like Tom Brady, who played at a high level for a long time. Right. It's.

We know what the greats can do. That's why they're the great ones. I'm talking about take those top top and Andy Roddick is one of the greats in my opinion, but you take Roddick down and you kind of put that, what I call that upper, upper best of all time tier. And you start looking at the other really good players in the league. I think that prime is still three to five years. And I think their window may extend to eight depending on how

Elfie, how physical, how, you know, when I say physical, how physical is their game that it depended more on the physical piece. You're Pete, your guys like, I go back to chain. I go up to Layton Hewitt and even up to nowadays. I'm trying to think of the who's a good version. I hate to put Holger cause he's hurt now. Demon R maybe one, right? He's the current one. Maybe, maybe before him it was a Kayden Shikori. These players where they needed their speed.

Alvin Owusu (13:36.225)
Maybe like Diminor, like maybe Diminor, which we're gonna get to.

Torrey (13:47.587)
That was their weapon. So when they lost a step, they weren't quite as top top in, but who's going to be as fast at 30 as you were at 23. So that's why I say, that's why I put an eight year cap on now that they're still not good tennis players. You know, they're just not as potent as they used to be, but they still every bit as good. Just not quite the step, just that, that, that, that extra step in the recovery of that step is, Hey, father time is still in the feed.

Alvin Owusu (13:56.489)
Right. So I'll add that.

Alvin Owusu (14:06.103)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (14:16.673)
So I promise the listeners we're gonna get to the actual players in this group, I'm very invested in this conversation right now because there's something that you mentioned and I wanted to come back to it. prime, okay, so this is how I see it on an X and Y kind of axis, right? Like you start off, at some point you're going to go up and get stronger, your physical capabilities, right, are going to hit a peak and then at some point they're gonna start coming.

Torrey (14:20.275)
Hahaha!

Alvin Owusu (14:46.317)
down but then also at the same, in the same way you can even say that you start, you kind of start it maybe at your physical peak, I don't know, a little bit higher and it slowly, it matriculates down and you just want to level out that plateau but mentally, your mental capability, the way you read the game is the one that's always increasing, right? The more you play, the better you are at mentally playing tennis. When those two intersect, that is the prime and what you want to do is you want to keep that window

Torrey (14:56.524)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (15:15.393)
that intersection window, you wanna zoom in and keep that intersection window as long as you can, slow down the, slow down the deviating paths between them when they cross, right? And I think when you go back to the basketball example, like LeBron James, he's been able to do that for so long because he's so mentally advanced, right? And was also so physically advanced that those two things met pretty quickly and then they just kind of stayed in the same area and you can't really tell that he's, it took a while to tell that he's,

Torrey (15:19.884)
Yeah.

Torrey (15:24.14)
Yup, yup, yup.

Alvin Owusu (15:45.003)
was actually starting to slip physically. Tom Brady plays a position that is not as physically demanding. Actually, the better you are mentally as a quarterback, the less physically demanding that game becomes, right? Tennis is this rare sport in where you can't hide, like, you can only hide the physical stuff for so long because eventually you start to break down and that's what's happening to Novak. Like, is he a little bit slower? Sure. Is he a little bit slower to the point that it matters? No.

Torrey (16:01.394)
You

Alvin Owusu (16:14.76)
it's the ability to then come back and do it again, come back and do it again two days later. Like that's where starts to get him. So although his his tennis IQ was through the roof, right? So I think peak versus prime, different things. Getting to your peak.

Torrey (16:16.783)
Not with most.

Torrey (16:32.225)
So how would you define the two?

Alvin Owusu (16:35.132)
getting to your peak, right? That's probably what happens between around age 28. I say the prime is like, how long can you stay there?

Torrey (16:45.794)
Okay, I like that. That will go with that and that's very well encapsulated. Is that?

I have to think it there's for everybody, the peak and the prime, right? would say that the vast majority, the peak would happen a little earlier. And I would say for the great ones, the prime, the extension of the peak by your definition, almost the greatness of you is only able to extend that prime as long as you can. Would you agree with that?

Alvin Owusu (17:00.661)
Right?

Alvin Owusu (17:11.212)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (17:23.872)
I like that, I like that. The peak is the beginning and then your upper level determines how long that prime goes or health, right? Like someone like a Delpo. Delpo hit his peak, he's ready to go, prime got shortened because of his ability to stay healthy. Yeah, and I think that helps us. Yeah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I think that really, yeah, that really does put us right where it needs to put us.

Torrey (17:34.698)
there, butch.

Torrey (17:40.82)
I'm not sure. That's a good level set, as we start going through this conversation.

Alvin Owusu (17:53.237)
And it also makes me think like, then, okay. I was about to say, it makes me think what does, what do Carlos and Yannick look like in three years? Right. but then you also take a look back like, okay, fed Novak, Rafa, these guys all won young, but like, what was the best version of them? It wasn't that first grand slam, right? was pick your, pick your, your version of fed, pick your version of Rafa, pick your version of these guys. Like there are, there were a lot of versions of them that you could go, man.

Like, I mean, 2017 Fed was my favorite, right? Because that's when he kind of like, he brought the beast out on the backhand side and he was everything else, but then added that in and that was like super powered. 17 to 19 Fed was my favorite. We were far removed from his first Wimbledon championship, right? But yeah, let's bring it to present day, right? So this group of players entering their prime, ages 25 to 26.

Torrey (18:29.886)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. Yep.

Torrey (18:40.533)
for sure, for sure.

Alvin Owusu (18:52.556)
captain of this group being Alex De Manure. Alex qualified for Turin, Finished the year, I think seven, something like that, maybe six, six, seven. Ugh, God, I didn't mean to, sorry, sorry.

I think this is probably the, this is a great example of, okay, Alex DeMandoor has peaked as a tennis player. Now, how long, like he is 26, he's in the back and he's entering his prime. Now it's like, how long can he hold on to this version of good tennis? But he's already talking about feeling like he's getting burnt out, he's playing too many events, the schedule this, the schedule that, which.

Rightly so, it's a lot of tennis, but he's just supposed to be getting into the best part of his career.

Torrey (19:49.279)
I'm going to ask one more defining question. What is past?

What point is it a bad tournament and at what point is it a bellwether for pasture price?

Alvin Owusu (20:04.572)
Mmm, I hate to say one bad year makes Makes me feel like you're past your prime

Torrey (20:16.671)
As I look at Stefanos, somewhere down on one of these lists. And here's why I'm asking the question.

Alvin Owusu (20:17.676)
Ugh... Ugh...

Torrey (20:27.679)
I agree with you. Diem has had a phenomenal, has had a great career. He's moving into rare air, especially taken into context the next two that are firmly supplanted as our resident greats. Diem, Rude, Felix.

What's David Fekina's first name?

Alvin Owusu (20:54.444)
Alejandra. Alejandra.

Torrey (20:55.36)
Alejandro, that's what I was thinking. was thinking, I was thinking. Alejandro, was thinking it was Alex, but Alejandro, Dennis, and a few others on this list, at the risk of meeting one or two within round of 32 on. If not, as just as the numerical part of a tournament will play out, certainly by round of 16, right?

Alvin Owusu (21:21.356)
Sure.

Torrey (21:23.968)
So by definition, you're gonna have to beat one of them or three and four to get to the quarters where you'll certainly meet one of them if history plays out in its current precedent stands. So the only way to improve what Alex did, the demon, is to get to semis, which he'd have to beat two of the levels.

Let's go. So that's why I want to make sure we're on the same page because does past prime mean that he did not repeat the previous year that he fell back or did past prime mean the old tennis eye. He just got worked. Demon played a phenomenal first round match against in that interim against Carlos, probably the best I've seen him play. And I was so impressed.

Alvin Owusu (22:19.723)
Hmm?

Torrey (22:21.503)
I said, Alex is getting better. He's matching up better. He's hitting shots he needs to hit against Carlos and he's making Carlos go deeper in the bag. Find ways and patterns that work against him. And I was impressed by that because it told me that he hadn't weighed the old white flag. I don't want to talk too much about my main man Alex Varev because I love Alex Varev, but he seems to be trying what he always tried. I know we'll get to Alex, but my point is

Alvin Owusu (22:44.341)
We'll get to him.

Torrey (22:50.728)
Sasha Alex is still trying the old, let me just try the old backhand matchup again. It'll work one of these times where I felt Alex, Demon Alex was like, no, you're going to beat me the other way today. You're going to find another way to beat me because my name is Alex Demonore. And that's what I love about that match. Carlos still won the match Alex. But the fact of the matter was when I the old eye test told me,

Alvin Owusu (23:14.176)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (23:20.146)
Demon can play this way against Carlos. Whoa. Hold on now. Demon has another gear to left in this situation and let's just see. And so that's why I say he has the ability to push his prime. If he only only gets to the quarters again, well, I call that about average in the court of public opinion as far as results. When my eye test told me differently, you talked about Roddick earlier and fed.

Do you remember that? I gotta think it was a, was it the Wimpy final with Fed and Roddick or was it a semi? can't remember. Rain Delay, the middle match. One of the best matches I thought Andy Roddick ever played. And that was a great match for Fed as well. And I say that match to me, even though he didn't win, was one of the best matches I think he ever played. He may disagree, but for me as a fan,

Alvin Owusu (23:58.506)
The rain one where they had the rain delay in the middle of the match and the left came back. Yeah.

Torrey (24:18.973)
then his 03 then all the matches combined in 03. You know what mean? So I say that to say, you know, that's what I'm getting at. And that was what that had to be 09, 08, that was to my point, 09, right. Four, five years, six years after his, won a slam. So that's why I mentioned it Alvin is I want to make sure we have some, some decent ground rules on what will it take to auto quote, define pasture prime.

Alvin Owusu (24:27.307)
No, I think at... 09, it was 09. Yeah, it was 09.

Torrey (24:48.205)
And is it, to me it has to be some combination of two.

Alvin Owusu (24:52.575)
Well, I like that question and I've been thinking about it since you said it. So I think for someone like an Alex D. Menor, and probably this is probably the same thing for Andy Roddick, it's like the prime is over, you're gonna hit your peak where these, it's probably rankings is really good reflection of this, right? You get to certain point where these are the people that are better than me and these are the people that are below me.

your prime lasts as long as you can stay in that area. When the people above you might age out, right, and you keep going up, but the people behind you, like if two age out and two pass you, you're still at that same, you're still in that same core tile, right? Right, I think your prime is over when more people pass you than you pass. Yeah, yeah, so when.

Torrey (25:23.855)
in that range. And that's fair. Right.

Torrey (25:35.621)
Right. And that's fair. Right. Right.

Torrey (25:43.825)
then you pass that that had gone. Sure. And that's both fair and numerically viable.

Alvin Owusu (25:51.424)
The players I used to beat, I can't beat anymore. I think that is when, that's when you're starting to, we're starting to leave our, we're leaving our prime at that point. We're leaving our prime at that point. And I think that's a fair point with Alex D. Menor right now because he's got a handful of players that he can't beat and he's got a lot of players that he does beat. until he starts to, now maybe, like we're gonna get a,

Torrey (26:00.925)
Agreed. Agreed.

Alvin Owusu (26:20.085)
We're either gonna get a slightly better version of Alex E. Menor next year or a slightly worse version of Alex E. Menor and that's gonna net out to somewhere between six in the world and 12 in the world. I think for him, as long as he's, if he can make Turin again, that check, we're still rolling. If we miss it by eight spots, then.

Torrey (26:34.927)
Right, right, right. I was going to say I would, would, I would take that. I would take that up to, up to highest eight, not, not 12, but to your point, I get, I get what you're trying to end of your ranking being what it is. Yes. I agree with that. I agree with that. And, and I just feel like, again, the great ones are always outliers and they skew the data at some point. He will fall a bit outside of the higher is ranking the later he sees

Alvin Owusu (26:46.845)
Right, right, yeah.

Torrey (27:02.865)
Carlos and Yannick, right? I think we understand that. We both agree on that. So to lose even a step is important. And because that now means you're going to meet them sooner, right? Even around sooner per slam. And round of 16 versus quarters is a big deal. And obviously, you know, it's, obviously you're going to meet when I'm in the semis and, and that's, and that's where I'm at. Anyway, keep going. like, I like it. I just wanted to make sure we're, we're clear on what

Alvin Owusu (27:13.813)
Round of 16, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (27:18.592)
Very big deal.

Torrey (27:30.364)
since we're typically defined at least working definitions of prime and peak, past prime, which is a term we all throw out there, right? We need to kind of have a working definition of past prime as well.

Alvin Owusu (27:46.345)
Yeah, I like the definition of like not losing, like when you start losing to players that you used to not lose to, I think that, but then what does that look like? Like what is the eye, like there's a little bit of eye test that goes on there. Yeah, you can lose one match, but if you consistently start losing to, I don't even, I can't even give you an example here, but like if Alex DiMannuo were to lose to like Brandon Nakashima in the third round of the Australian Open.

Torrey (27:57.796)
Yeah, because you could lose one match. That's what I'm trying to say. You can lose one match.

Alvin Owusu (28:16.402)
then and then hit the hard court and then hit the sunshine double and loose to somebody like like Arthur Kazoo And this isn't this the thing like because because any of these guys can beat any of these guys any given day You need to look at it You have to like you can't look at any particular tournament and say no, he's out of his prime You got to look back and go it's not even just one year. That's what I'm saying earlier You need to look at a couple years

Torrey (28:31.599)
That's what I'm trying to say.

Torrey (28:42.437)
Yep. Bye.

Alvin Owusu (28:44.042)
Because right now I'm looking at Demonor's interview rankings for the last three years. 2023, finished 12. 2024, he finished nine. This year, he finished seven. Okay, we're, unless you think he's gonna be a top four player anytime soon, we are there. We are there. We are right there. So if he slips, if he slips past and I think of things in three year, like three year peaks, peaks not one year, it's three years, right? And exactly.

Torrey (28:52.771)
up.

Torrey (28:59.055)
Right there. Right there. Yep.

Torrey (29:07.383)
Okay, okay. And that's fair. Periods almost like epics, so to speak. Year three year. Yeah, and I'm down with that. Because I was about to say a bad tournament or bad years. Right.

Alvin Owusu (29:14.57)
Yeah, so if he were to slide past 12, yeah, if he were to slide past 12, that's when I would be concerned. If he finished next year at 10, no, that's fine. That's within range, definitely within reason. If we go, if we went 12, nine, seven, and then 10, 15, now I'm like, we're moving the wrong direction now.

Torrey (29:24.815)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (29:38.734)
Because that would have also been two years also back to back, you know, that you're going backwards. Right. And although still very competitive, but, and that's what I wanted you to do because I wanted to be able to know when we start talking about This Is It and Past Prime, you know, where we are in that conversation, because to me that matters big time, you know I mean? You know, because I'm looking at a couple of names down here that I'm like, oof, you know what I mean? On that note, right? That, you know,

Alvin Owusu (29:42.772)
going backwards. Yeah, and I'm gonna...

Alvin Owusu (30:07.726)
Well, we keep this conversation going and I'm gonna use this as a transition point to, we're gonna skip Casper, we'll come back to Casper in a second, but someone like Felix, right? Felix is a year younger than Alex, but this matters, right? Because if I were to apply that same science to Felix Ojea-Aliassim, right? Look back in the last five years for Felix, finished year in 2021, he finished 11 in the world.

Torrey (30:16.238)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (30:34.986)
2022, six in the world. Hmm, things are looking good. 2023, 29. 2024, 29 again. This year, five, right? So if I had looked at 2023 and 2024 just on paper, like, no, he's cashed. But when you watch him play his matches, you just realize he's a weird spot right now. And you can't say that someone who is age 23 or 24,

Torrey (30:55.322)
Yeah, pass this prime.

Alvin Owusu (31:04.146)
That's when you know it's like it's no there's something else. It's probably not. He's done. He's still working his way there.

Torrey (31:13.21)
I wanna hold that thought and I wanna speak back to something we mentioned in the last podcast regarding Jack Draper because you've just given me the perfect example about the Jack Draper I was talking about.

Alvin Owusu (31:17.054)
Holding it, holding it right here in my hand.

Alvin Owusu (31:24.756)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (31:32.123)
6th in the world and 11th in the world, I still felt Felix's game was incomplete. No true identity, hit a good ball on any given, there was no weaknesses. Strengths were just, beat some good people to your point, 6th in the world, who can argue with it? But I did look at him and say,

I know exactly what his identity is. I know what he does and so does he. And I think he's a threat to take down one of the very top if not outside chance winning the semifinals. I never said that ever. 6-1 didn't say that.

I don't say that now. His game has come together. He looks complete. He understands what he needs to do. Call that the, an aha, call it an epiphany, call it confidence, call it everything under that umbrella. He is now the best version of Felix that we've ever seen. That was my point with Jack. It has nothing to with what he's done up to this point. I just don't think it's all come together.

My mom used to make chili, Alex, and three days later, that chili was even better. She always said the spices needed to actually, her term, marinade, need to actually come out. Probably had good spaghetti, same. The spices take a little bit of time to soak into, right? Whatever the mixture is until it becomes a solution in my vernacular. That's what Felix has done now.

Alvin Owusu (32:54.089)
Right. Yep.

Torrey (33:16.099)
So I think it's very important that we do not pour rubble over the caskets of these guys. We say past prime. That mean that they're done. It just means that they're at a point in their career where they need to, you know, kind of makes them, you know, make some hay while the sun is shining. And it also means even more for our next category of guys. When we talk about the, this is it and what I call the put up or shut up crew. But I feel like Felix is there now. I feel like Jack will get there. Come back to your point now about Felix.

I feel like Felix is on a way to get even better this year, not necessarily pass top five, but to even hold top five and potentially claw at one and two. Like he's like, he's trying to now that would pass both eye test and rankings. And unfortunately for some of these guys on this list, that means that he may go through them in the process. So that's the other part. got to work on this numerically.

There can only be four top fours. There can only be four semi-finalists. There can only be eight quarterfinals. So at some point you go right into one of them. And the guy that's playing well right now is the guy you have to worry about. And right now that guy is Felix Alger, Alger Aliasi. And so that's why I'm thinking that I'm so happy with his second burst or his second wind, if you will, of his career, because he's showing you that, know, buddy, I'm actually

Alvin Owusu (34:14.728)
Right. Right.

Torrey (34:42.134)
getting my head around this and you know, but both these two guys, and Damon could do some wonderful things next year with the way they're playing right

Alvin Owusu (34:51.54)
Well, I love the way you pulled in the Jack Draper example, and I think it really comes down to this is why we use age as a factor, because someone who is 22 years old and six in the world, if we, and they haven't been on tour for five years, we can assume that the best is yet to come. Now, we might have to a step backwards, take a step forward, which is, you know,

along with some injuries, but Felix was in the woods a little bit for the last two years. Even Shiloh, up through this year as well, he was trashed. Yeah, mean, they were a couple of spots of sunshine, but nothing to write home about before we hit the hard courts this summer. But was able to put it together. And some of it is classic indoor Felix, had top three in the world indoor tennis player. And some of it is like we actually saw

Torrey (35:28.547)
to summer this year.

Torrey (35:47.576)
He is Canadian, Alex. He is Canadian.

Alvin Owusu (35:50.09)
He is Canadian. We did see some market changes in his game, that congealing of who Felix Ojea-Aliassime is. And I think more importantly, it seems like he understands who he is and maybe whatever his camp has been preaching to him is starting to, like they're all on the same page about, this is the package. This is the package that we bring to market. Like your mom's recipe and my mom's, my mom's red beans and rice, like I always said.

Torrey (36:11.926)
Yep.

Torrey (36:19.244)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (36:19.869)
day three in the refrigerator is better than when it comes off the stove. And that's the one you wanna bring to show. That's the one you wanna bring to show. You want that day three version. I wanna take the 25 year old version of Felix Ligiali's even not the 21 year old version. Which also is like same thing with Demon. Demon right now, this is the best version I've seen of Alex De Manor. And I would say this is probably the best version he's seen of himself. Yeah, and I saw,

Torrey (36:24.056)
100%.

Right? my God.

Torrey (36:45.612)
Yeah, yeah, gotta gotta be fun. Gotta be fun coming into that. You know what mean?

Alvin Owusu (36:50.683)
Yeah, yeah, just like any way it happens in everyone's profession. When you get to that point of where you have enough experience behind you and your brain is still thinking about the things that could be done, you have hit Nirvana as a professional. When you get to the point where you've seen it all and you don't really, you don't wanna think about the future anymore, that's when you're a little past your prime. And when you're in the part of your career where you're thinking about all the things in front of you but you have no base to stand on,

Torrey (37:02.529)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (37:18.889)
then you're little, you're wet behind the ears, right? You're a little too green for this. But there's that sweet spot and you know, for those trading on hands and feet, it's earlier in life, 26 to 29 maybe. And for those of us not, it's a little bit later. So I just kind of think like that's why it's really cool here. And then now it's like, okay, if Felix Lujet-Aliassime fancies himself as a top 10 player in the world, then he needs to be one for the next four years of his career.

Torrey (37:21.227)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey (37:29.825)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (37:48.509)
How do you stay there?

Torrey (37:51.095)
Right. Right. He's, he's now. Right. He's now at that point where he, needs that ease. would be great for him to, to knock off one of the other three through sixes in, in hand and handily fashion and really pulled the threat, potentially even have a five setter against what's the, what's the term now?

Alvin Owusu (37:51.581)
That's the question. That's the question, because we've talked about the groups coming.

Torrey (38:21.643)
Pinnacle eyes or whatever you want to call it now the new two to you got to he would need to push one of them enough for them to be like, Whoa, we don't have the same stranglehold on this group like we like we used to. And at that point, to me, that's a sign of the three through eight cumulative. We're catching we're catching up to you. You know what I mean? Which is which is ultimately going to happen just just by who and when

Alvin Owusu (38:22.377)
The new two.

Alvin Owusu (38:48.905)
Yeah, it's like if you were to look at it, what would it look like to say, I've got it and this is me now? It's like playing Taylor Fritz in the quarterfinals of the Australian Open and beating him in four sets and then pushing one of center or Alcaraz deep into four or five sets in the semi. Now we're talking. Now we're talking. But at this point, you would,

Torrey (39:07.958)
Five, or right, four sets, two breakers, yep. Right, 11, nine.

Alvin Owusu (39:18.345)
you would expect Taylor to win that match. And Taylor is in that cohort ahead of him, and we'll get to Taylor later, but those are the kind of matches you start to, I need Felix to be there and taking care of that kind of step next year for us to feel like five is real. Maybe the truth is somewhere between five and 30. I don't know, it's such a wide range, I got no idea.

Torrey (39:24.042)
Right.

Torrey (39:34.314)
Right. Great. I agree. I hear you fight for spiel.

Torrey (39:45.642)
Yeah, I think we'll see it. I think we'll see it. He's playing well.

Alvin Owusu (39:48.361)
Your boy, uh, okay. All right. We'll see. Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Torrey (39:52.31)
I really do. I really do. I think he's playing well. And let me tell you who else I know you, kind of briefly went past rude. Rude to me is I think Casper is at that very, very dangerous spot. Again, unfortunately assisted by some injuries this year. I haven't really seen Casper much since the French. And again, he's all of his titles at this point in time have come on clay on the clay server. I think he has one other title maybe on total for a guy that's top 10 in the world. That's pretty rare.

Alvin Owusu (39:59.774)
Yeah, want to talk about Casper.

Torrey (40:22.325)
I would also say that, and I'll revisit Jack for a moment. Asper has every shot on any given day. We know his backhands are world-class, and his returns are unreal. Forehands can be up and down. His style of play, which is he likes to play better, is he can use all the court. He has angles, he has violence, he has slice. He counterpunishes, he aggressive baselines. He has a little bit of everything at a given

Physical prime is going to matter a lot. If the injuries dinged him up a little bit, that's going to hurt him going forward. Second, no major serve slash one as a weapon. He's day to day with both. That's going to hurt him to get back to where was post injury. Number three, he's, he's, loves the clay. Not so much on the hardcore, clearly not so much on grass, although I'm sure he's pretty good at all of them. He's top five, six, seven in the world.

He's good. He's good on water. If he had to play on a water court, he's good. So make no mistake. It's just to say with this competition he's playing against, is he that much better than anybody else? And this is my Jack Draper comparison. Felix Aljair Al Yassine comparison. Until they hit that next stride, they are not true top five to me.

Alvin Owusu (41:28.082)
He's good. He's just good. He's good.

Torrey (41:51.976)
This was always mine. I gotta bring it. I gotta bring it up. Alvin, my Lorenzo Musetti. Is he eight? Okay. Seven. All right. Is he top five? Is he top four? Say not yet. And that's why I can't give him that. That just yet. Will he still get there? Musetti can't. That's not a talk show. However, this is where Rude is. He's not made that next jump.

The downshift to upshift to you talk, you talk about with, with Felix and I feel Jack can, don't know if Casper can. And you still know if it's in the cards right now. And so therefore I'm saying he might be entering that very nebulous past prime level going forward for no other reason that no other style of play or weapon has appeared and that his overall style is pretty solid, pretty good.

But he's going to need to get back ready pretty quickly and be injury free to have his normal stranglehold on the clay pushing these other new jacks, right? Including Taylor, including Ben Sheldon, including the demon, including Felix. Already, that's a pretty crowded quarter right there. Because you already know center carats are going to be there. And now you're looking at, OK, who's left?

And that's going to be some tough sledding for Mr. Root.

Alvin Owusu (43:21.789)
Okay, all right, all right. Okay, okay. Cas, okay, you almost got me distracted with the Lorenzo comment. but you saved it, so I'm not gonna go back there. I'm not gonna go back there. But we'll continue to forward with Caspar Rood.

Torrey (43:22.61)
What say you?

Torrey (43:38.58)
Do you like Lorenzo? Are you a Lorenzo fan? Is that the real problem every time I bring up Lorenzo? I like Lorenzo. I'll say it. I'll say it. I've said it before. Lorenzo is phenomenal. I watched him. I told you. I came back. I said it on tape. Lorenzo must say he is money. I said it. I will continue to say it. I don't give him top four, top five props yet. I still won't. However, God, he's good.

Alvin Owusu (43:42.195)
Well here, am I a Lorenzo fan? Good.

Alvin Owusu (43:56.361)
Okay, good. Good.

Alvin Owusu (44:01.788)
Thank you. Good.

Alvin Owusu (44:06.92)
That's fine, that's fine. Yeah, he's 23 years old. Lorenzo's 23 years old. We got time, we got time. But, Casper, okay, Casper.

Torrey (44:08.092)
He's very good.

No doubt, no doubt. That's all. So I want to make sure we say that. Don't get distracted with Lorenzo.

Alvin Owusu (44:21.608)
Let me give you some things about Caspar Root. Caspar Root is 26 years old. Caspar has made two Grand Slam finals in his career. Maybe three. I think three. He lost an adult in the French Open, he lost to Djokovic in French Open final, lost to Carlos in his maiden US Open championship. I don't remember the years, but all those things did happen. This year in Grand Slams, round of 64 of the Australian Open, round of 64 at the French Open.

Torrey (44:24.062)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (44:50.792)
did not play Wimbledon round to 64 at the US Open. Pretty bad. Won two tournaments this year. One hardcore in Zagastad maybe? Somewhere, one hardcore, somewhere. Later in the year. Stockholm. And then earlier in the year, won Madrid. I remember that, and he beat Draper in the final. Fantastic match. Great match, great match. I'll also say,

Torrey (45:12.21)
Big drape

Alvin Owusu (45:19.784)
So with all that being said, Casper finished 16 in the world this year, 16. 16. By all accounts, had a pretty bad year, was hurt for like three months, right? And then, he and his partner had their first child, as we both know as parents. You can't just continue on about your day, even though you're not the one having the kid, things change, things change. Okay, so we take all that.

Torrey (45:25.618)
pretty good year for some of those results. Yeah.

Torrey (45:44.262)
Yeah, yeah, everything changes.

Alvin Owusu (45:49.641)
And that resulted in a, finished 16 in the world this year. A lowly six in a down year, in a down year, 16 in the world. Okay. So if we, if we go backwards, 2021, he finished eight, 2022, he finished three and 24, sorry, 2021, finished eight, 2022, he finished three in the world. 2023, he was 11, last year he was six, 16 this year. Okay. So.

Torrey (45:52.4)
And a lowly 16 in the world. I'm with you.

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (46:17.448)
I think we've seen his highest ranking, but that was also pre-Center Alcaraz, post-Fed Nadal kind of on the back end, but like still in there with Djokovic. He was like in that almost Dominique team space, if you will, in that time in his career. And right now he's dealing with these other two guys. Do I think he's getting back to three? No. Do I think 16 is a reflection of

Torrey (46:36.049)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (46:47.578)
him as a player right now? No, I would say those are your, that's your ceiling and your floor right there. I would imagine.

Torrey (46:52.562)
Is this his Felix 29? That's my question.

Alvin Owusu (46:57.832)
Right. Yeah, I think is a we when a guy's gonna play, you know, come again. If a guy's gonna play 10 years on tour, you're gonna you're gonna it can't be linear, right? It's not gonna always continue to get better, right? You're gonna have some things happen. Yeah, you're gonna have some things happen. I think we're in that space of like, yeah, he had a down year. Is he a top 10 player? I think that's the real question is Casper Rood still top 10 player. If I think that's if he's betting on himself, he'll say yes, and it's nine. It's

Torrey (46:59.25)
Bye bye.

Torrey (47:04.754)
Keep going.

Torrey (47:10.106)
Never live here.

Alvin Owusu (47:27.048)
nine maybe, maybe eight. If it's where we think it is, it's probably 11 or 12, but it's not 16. And I think we can agree on that. Like he's one of the best play quarters in the world and he lost in second round in French Open this year.

Torrey (47:40.006)
My question and was dinged up. Let's not forget that. Right. My question was, was this going to be his Felix rebound at 29 to get back to where that is? In other words, Felix had two years, 29 give or take, if I'm not mistaken from what you talked about, and then found a way to downshift and upshift. So my, he, is it a Felix 29?

Alvin Owusu (47:43.718)
Yeah, right. Yes, and he was, and he was hurt.

Torrey (48:09.627)
Can we expect another year, 20 at 16. And then he gets back to that when things back healthy wise gets everything back in good shape. Then he responds and he's back inside the top in the next 18 months to two years. That's what I am saying remains to be seen. Felix to his credit still had some weapons. He wasn't putting the whole package together. I don't know if Casper has those same weapons.

I would love it if he would be. think he's a great tactician on the court, love watching him play. I'm just not so sure that he has the rebound, the flip turn in the pool, so to speak, to get back to that top end status. I think he's more of a resident, you know, end through 16 kind of player going forward unless something drastic changes. And is there anybody that can do it? It's Casper, but.

Alvin Owusu (48:53.84)
huh.

Torrey (49:08.633)
in my opinion, I don't see that being, I don't see him resurging back to three, four, five, six, eight anytime soon, although I see him resurging wealth from 16.

Alvin Owusu (49:22.0)
Yeah, as you start to say that, and I'm thinking about some of the matches he lost, the players he lost to, the player types he lost to, that not being able to dial it up and get easy points off of the serve and forehand will probably be the, not the death of him, but that will be the thing that keeps him from climbing back into the top 10. Like he can't get free points. He has a tough time manufacturing free points.

Torrey (49:42.309)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (49:50.472)
the players above him, you think about the Ben Sheltons and you think about the Lorenzo Mercedes. Hell, you even think about like Hurt Taylor, Jack Draper, like all these guys, like these guys all have pop, right? And even when I think about him like making the finals at that US Open, he almost did like smoking mirrors. I don't know how he did that. But yeah, it's just maybe it's just not enough. And he said it as much. think, I can't remember if this was right after the Australian Open, but.

Torrey (49:57.626)
Taylor's. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (50:17.595)
he and Sysopass said similar things. It feels like the game has changed on the Pro Tour while they're in their primes on the Pro Tour. And that is real. That's real. Like that is very, very real. Yeah, so maybe it is a matter of don't let this thing slip past 20. Let's, yeah, yeah, I've been, yeah, well, mean, could, I mean,

Torrey (50:24.954)
Right.

Torrey (50:38.02)
Yeah. Numerically, that would be tough for him.

Alvin Owusu (50:47.097)
Maybe he doesn't win a Masters 1000 this year, but he can definitely do better at a couple of these slams. Like we won, we're talking about three wins in three slams this year. That's not Casper Rude, he's better than that. He is better than he is better than that, yeah.

Torrey (50:56.078)
He's got to better than that. He's way better than that. And Alvin, think with so many clay court tournaments, I think he is likely going to win another one. You heard it right here. I think he does better in the 1000 than he'll do in the slams, me personally. And I just feel that now French, should go a little farther. He always has. mean, just so historically over his last four or five years, he's done a great job of that. So again, I'm not pouring dirt.

Alvin Owusu (51:16.357)
Yeah, yeah, I mean...

Torrey (51:24.816)
on the casket. I'm simply saying I think Casper has a lot of work to do to regain top 10 status. The 10 is my issue. Not Casper returning to good form. The 10, that nine, the eight, possible. Past eight, not too likely with game style and age and coming back. Is it numeric? The puzzle 100%. Can he win a two 1000s? Absolutely. On clay? Of course. He's almost a favorite. Is he going to do it? This year we'll see.

Alvin Owusu (51:41.542)
Right, yeah.

Torrey (51:53.901)
Do I see another, another year where he's double digit? do. mind you, I was 16, but, but, you know, I could see him finish at 11 or 12 and, and, and having a good year and still knocking off some players and, and you say, he lose to that Casper root. yeah. Well, that makes sense. Yeah. I can see that because that that's Casper. I mean, he just, he will pardon the pardon the pun. He will ghost you. He will, he will.

You'll rip my ball line. He'll go open stance line back with the open stance backhand and hurt you. And then he'll, he hooked a forehand angle on your boy, Jack Draper so bad in that tournament. He had a buggy angle in the service box. Why? On Jack's backhand, going near bro Jack's ankles. I was like, Oh, who doesn't on the run, forehand buggy angle. I was like, Oh.

Alvin Owusu (52:38.869)
Yeah.

Torrey (52:48.3)
And it was nasty. was and then followed up with a volley. I'm like, that's just big right there. When you know the guy stretched out, stumbling, bumbling with a slice and you're following it in after you were on the run with a forehand buggy dude. is that's some that's solid tennis right there. He knew it. He hit a ball wider than people can hit with a serve. He hit wider with the forehand angle. Think about what I'm talking about. You are

Alvin Owusu (53:15.035)
That's Casper though, Casper on clay is like...

Torrey (53:15.371)
We've you've rarely seen a ball like that. He's a magician. That's what he is. God, it was it was fun to watch.

Alvin Owusu (53:22.405)
Yeah, mean, his spin profile on the forehand side is, it's in a class, like he hits the heaviest forehand on which is great for him on clay, but less so much on hard courts where he, like, he did fight in the Masters, like he won the Masters, he won Madrid, right? He quarter-finaled Rome and got stopped by a center, I think was like, no, and won something like that, it was pretty bad.

Torrey (53:28.527)
Less so everywhere else. Sure.

Torrey (53:49.775)
Right, I remember saying that,

Alvin Owusu (53:51.132)
did well in Barcelona, like quarter final Barcelona, didn't do well in Monte Carlo, but like he'd have to clean up there to then make up for the lack of performance in some of the hardcore events and that's kind of where we might get a little, where the rubber meets the road, yeah. Let's keep moving here, because I want to make sure that we talk about both Denis Shephovanov and Alejandro Davidovic-Vequena. I mean, yeah.

Torrey (53:59.235)
Yeah. Elsewhere, sure.

Torrey (54:15.982)
Yup.

Alvin Owusu (54:20.391)
ADF, he's a personal favorite of mine. I love watching him play. I love the way he plays with his heart on his sleeve. And he's got so much, yes, he is possessed on the inside. He is like a tortured artist. And he can't win a tournament to save his life. He gets a lot of finals, he just can't win one. But with that being said, he had a career year.

Torrey (54:23.767)
Yeah.

He does. And with anger.

Torrey (54:35.587)
Hahahaha

Torrey (54:39.692)
Yes.

Right, right.

Alvin Owusu (54:48.517)
He finished top 15 in the world. Like that's, that's amazing. you know, didn't do fantastic at the slams, the round of 16 performance in Australia, a couple of second round losses in a 32 and Wimbledon. So decent year. but, showed up in the, in the summer hardcore swing. I was really impressed with him, with, Alexi Menor as well. think there's one other player that I took a note at the time, but like players who go deep in events.

and then are able to come back the very next week. And like you see that they get a trap first round match and they're able to get through it. Like get through it, get that one extra day off and then continue into your tournament. Like stacking tournaments back to back with performing at your highest level is like, that is a hallmark of being a professional tennis player.

Torrey (55:22.573)
Do it again.

Yeah.

Torrey (55:39.469)
A good one anyway. I agree with you. ADF is all I think about is, ya boy,

a team talking to the young Vader.

in your anger. You killed her. And I just think about Palpatine in the back. was my when Alejandro gets pissed out there, man. I mean, salty. I mean, just like he's about to blow every fuse in the the circuit box. And and sometimes he comes out of it. And sometimes you can tell you just got a Vesuvius just has to cool off and come back down. I love I love his energy, his passion. Nobody strikes as

clean or as big of a ball. I mean, he just off either way. You know what mean? I think he's let a sur get away from him from time to time. It gets him to take more time as just with his with his emotional state from time to time. But it's you know, what's that great line from Kanye? Everything I'm not makes me everything I am. You know, that's that's where Allah that's where Allah andro is that that's his emotional state. That's where he's at. And I feel like he's one of those kind of and like you say, Alvin, he's kind of backdoored himself into a

Alvin Owusu (56:43.919)
Everything I am, yeah, yeah, we'll put.

Torrey (56:54.221)
pretty good year this past year. He's had results all over the place. He didn't have a great, great, just huge breakout, but he had some good matches all the way through and played well against a lot of people at different times. you know, I think ADF still has some room to grow like the others I mentioned, Jack and Felix formally. I think his game could kind of come into a coming, it could still congeal a little bit and kind of bring some things together. I think he's I think he's a.

good tournament win away from proving to himself and to his game that this is what I do really well. He does a lot of things well, but he's a bit of a jack of all trades and master of none per se at this point in time, although he's gotten to be a much better jack of all trades. I would say he still needs to let that congeal a lot more like Felix in that regard. And he has a lot of ways to hurt you. And yet there's a few ways he can be hurt.

Alvin Owusu (57:38.192)
Miss.

Torrey (57:48.49)
and be neutralized. And I feel like if he continues on this path, he'll find ways to do what he does better, gets more people deeper into tournaments, the big ones at least.

Alvin Owusu (57:59.592)
Yeah, I mean, well put, well put. There's a certain...

Torrey (58:01.261)
And no shortage of confidence, what some confidence of a good win or two, a tournament win, could do for him would be huge at a 1000 level. That would add, because you can't quantify what that confidence would do for Alejandro.

Alvin Owusu (58:12.135)
Yeah!

Alvin Owusu (58:20.111)
I mean, I think he's something like 0-7 or 0-8 in finals. Like he's putting up like old school Felix numbers there. it would mean a lot to pop one of those, right? Like he lost to De Manor in the finals of Washington. He lost to Fonseca in the finals of maybe Basel. I mean, the Fonseca match, Fonseca was fantastic all the way through and through, but the final against...

Torrey (58:26.208)
Yeah.

Torrey (58:30.63)
my god, would it not?

Torrey (58:44.992)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (58:47.835)
D-Minor in DC, he had chances. I think he might even had match points there in that tiebreaker in the third set. getting a match like that, not even to speak to what it does to your rankings, but your confidence is like, I can put one together from first round all the way through the finals, would then start to show him who he is as a player, help him believe more in himself. But regardless, I'm here for the ride. I love watching him play.

Torrey (58:56.748)
Thank

Torrey (59:00.076)
something.

Torrey (59:08.576)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

No, for sure. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (59:16.679)
He's 26. mean, he's not quite six foot tall, so we're still talking about, there is some upper limitations here as far as what we're gonna get out of the package, but nah, man, let the good times roll. I love it.

Torrey (59:27.05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Torrey (59:33.452)
100%. 100%.

Stop.

Alvin Owusu (59:37.531)
And then let's, Chappo, yeah. So, for sure, Chappo's back, he's back, my Chappo back. Like he was hurt, also in the woods. Like what a Canadians man, just going in the woods for a little while. And it seems like he's, a lot of, many, so many, so many woods up there.

Torrey (59:50.667)
Yep. lot of woodlands up there. A lot of woodlands up there.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:02.502)
But very very similar to Felix and that like you go back a couple years and he was a perennial top 15 player like you know He finished top 15 from 2019 all the way to 2022 or then slipped out of the top 20 and 23 and then I think he was hurting 23 started making his way back in 24 and then now we've got ourselves back to you low 20s and and so I guess the question is like are we getting are we getting

back to upper limits Felix like, I mean, not Felix, sorry, Dennis, or has the tour caught up to what he can do.

Torrey (01:00:35.723)
Yeah.

Torrey (01:00:40.619)
That's a tough question. I would say it's a good question. I would tweak the question slightly and I would say, does he have another gear to go? Um, has the tour caught up hard to catch up to a slappy big serving lefty. I don't care who you are. It just something you don't see that often. Um, least Santa Lopez made a 15 to 18 year career.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:48.901)
Okay.

Torrey (01:01:07.947)
lefty serving and volleying because it's you just never saw it. You just never realized you didn't see it enough to get comfortable at it. And he was that player. I think Dennis is that player. He's that nowadays version. He's just a guy. You just you don't see that. You don't see that ball. You know what I mean? Unless you were his twin brother and grew up with it, you wouldn't see it. I think Chappo is kind of come back from where he was. Do I think that ceiling is outside of the top 10? do. Do I think that he will

Uh, do I think he has a, can he continue to make a living? The 500s and 1000s going forward. do. Do I think that he's an, he's one of those kinds of guys, album that can take out player on a bad day and just blow them off the court. don't care who you are. Somebody in the side of the top, anybody inside from about five out, he can serve them off the court on a given day. It could be in a routine challenger. It could be.

at a 500, it could be, doesn't matter, preferably, obviously hardcore. What was his big run early on? Wasn't that Wimby that he got deep in Wimby like when he first came on tour, six, seven years ago, 18, 19, did he blow, didn't he get to like quarters of Wimby one time?

Alvin Owusu (01:02:19.558)
Yeah, he came out, I remember he won, it might have been Wimbledon, I think he popped Wimby once and then maybe Australian Open semi-finaled it as well. Maybe lost to Fed or beat Fed, something like that.

Torrey (01:02:30.238)
Right. But I thought the first one was Wimby when he first kind of came out and just shocked the world, so to speak, that. My point is...

Alvin Owusu (01:02:36.694)
no, he beat Nadal in Canada at the Masters event. That was his on home soil, very Vicky Mboko like, just that. Here I am, home soil, do the thing, yeah.

Torrey (01:02:41.702)
Okay. Right. Sure. Sure. Sure. Here I am. Yep. But I stand to say even with players at that level, you know, he reminded me, it reminded me of his ascent to the top and beginning, which was very, Whoa, you know, like who is this kid? And I haven't necessarily seen some of the other skills catch up. Although he's gotten better back. It's gotten better. He's gotten a little better over this movement, but he's the me he's

He's a little bit in this definition of what you're talking about past prime. And yet I wouldn't have thought that he would be this high right now, which to me is another, if your ceiling isn't as low, you know, that's actually a pretty good sign. stays healthy. You know, if he can stay healthy, he, he's a player that I would hate to play if I had a weak forehand or my forehand is day to day, you know, because being lefty,

If he can rip that ball back out wide to my, and serve to it often, God, gotta, I gotta think like speaking of a Casper Ruud, this is not the kind of guy you want to play on a hard court. If I'm Casper Ruud, play all day, give them to me. But hardcore, Chappell Ruud, oof, I get the nod to Chappell all day, just because of the matchup. You know what I mean? And Dennis isn't going to match up backhand to backhand, you know what mean, with anybody. that's, that's, dumb. But I just feel like he's the kind of guy.

We keep talking about that has that ability to just eat has weapons of it. And so, you know, the old broken clock is right twice a day type of deal. He's going to catch fire. It's just a matter of where, you know, and when is it going to be and who's he playing? So that's why I say I don't and I'm actually pleasantly surprised that he's 23 in the world right now. You know, when I would have thought he'd be closer to 33.

you know, or 43, you know, but no major, major wins this year as far as the slams are concerned. Think, didn't he, think, wasn't his best, did he get 32 of, you know, it's 32 of US Open, was that his best finish?

Torrey (01:04:49.658)
But lost first round of Wimby? Right. So, that's my point. And I'll let you finish. Go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:49.67)
He, yeah, and that's a, that was a really interesting. Yeah, so that was that 30, that 32 at.

No, that at US Open I think was very telling because like that match, he lost the center in the round of 32 and I remember this match as clear as day because I was flying back from the US Open, I was watching it on the plane and he came out and brought the hammer to Yannick in the first set. Takes the first set like seven five, something like that. And then in the second set, I think he got up a break in the second set and then gave it right back and then you started to see him kind of like, I think it might have been like two three on that changeover, something like that. You kind of see.

Torrey (01:05:13.352)
.

Torrey (01:05:18.376)
Mmm.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:25.734)
started to see the dentist come out. Like he was locked in for about an hour and a half and then started bitching and complaining to himself. Like he's motioning to his box and I was like, that's it, right there, it's over. Like that, cause dentist doesn't typically come back from that. And if he does, it's against a lesser player and you need everything and then some, and some luck to pull one off against Yannick Center. like that match, and then you go all the way back to the very beginning of the year, he lost to Lorenzo Masetti, shouts Lorenzo.

Torrey (01:05:27.826)
Right. Yeah.

Torrey (01:05:39.335)
Right.

Torrey (01:05:49.64)
100%.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:55.366)
Like six, six and two or six, six and three in the Australian open. And it's like very similar. Like it's two tight sets. You you're right there. You got to stay in there, but he went off the handle again. And like Lorenzo didn't pick his game up. It's Lorenzo on hardcore. You can't be that worried, right? But it's like, that's the that's the Shapovalov experience. Like he just will let himself out of the moment and go off the handle. And you go off the handle for you can go off the handle for five minutes.

Torrey (01:06:12.616)
Yep.

Torrey (01:06:17.32)
Right.

Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:25.497)
Five minutes in a men's tennis match can be, you get broken, hole, you get broken again, and we're done. We're done. Especially if that's over two sets. Exactly, exactly. So I think that's more of a, you he recently got married and you do see, you typically see a change in players, a little bit of maturation there. And he's also hitting that time in his life where he's 26 years old, getting a little older. Like, I could see a point.

Torrey (01:06:33.778)
Police.

Torrey (01:06:48.114)
Yep.

Torrey (01:06:52.666)
Alvin Owusu (01:06:54.585)
where in the next two years you see him maybe pop another Sammy in a Grand Slam because it's not the tools, it's between the ears. that can, that's actually something that you can grow out of.

Torrey (01:07:05.352)
Yep, He's got a little gorn in there, doesn't he? Got a little gorn even he's been in there. If we could kind of calm him down a little bit and get him mature enough to stay in the moment, you're right. It's a lot off his racket and a lot off his head going through those lulls and his ebb and flow, so to speak. I would say that, again, with weapons, you're always dangerous. It's just a matter of how long. And I completely agree with you on that one.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:12.93)
Yeah.

Torrey (01:07:34.152)
I was a little bit again, you told me somebody else had, you know, somebody else had a, round of 64 round of 64, round of 128, aka first round and a round of 32 finish and they finished 23 in the world. I'd be like, who's that? Like I wouldn't, know, you wouldn't think of although the 32 obviously carries some weight, but just saying, you know,

Alvin Owusu (01:07:56.185)
Right.

Torrey (01:07:58.651)
Second, second, first and fourth. It almost sounds like an aberration, but until you understand what the player was, you know, I think Chapo's where he needs to be. And with players like that, ironically, a little bit past prime actually helps him because now he has to focus. Now he can't just pop a ball when he wants to and make up for his mental walkabout. He has to actually lock in and I think that actually will help him going down the road.

Lest we forget, Gorin won a grand slam later, not earlier. We all know how talented he was, but he'd go a little crazy. And Gorin won that slam, I want to say close to, he was down to 30 when he won that slam, when he won Wimby. So that to me gives you exactly, he's a sage, savvy veteran of a coach and everything now, but he was always that good. He just wasn't always as dialed in as mature. So I think he made a great point there with Chappo. He gets that down.

As we all know, good woman can be great for you, you know what I mean? Can grow you right up and kind of get you right where you need to be. And I'm hoping that that's the case because he's so fun to watch.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:05.829)
Yeah, and that ranking is kind of built off of, he did really well, he won Dallas, that's 500, he finaled, semi-finaled, semi-finaled Acapulco right after that, another 500, and then he won another event later in the year, another 250, I think in Mexico somewhere, I guess that would have been Los Cabos. So he's just crushing it on, in this particular time zone, actually.

Torrey (01:09:17.573)
Right.

Torrey (01:09:28.986)
Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:30.333)
Hard court so that's a you got to make it got to it up somewhere, right? If you're not gonna if I can do well the slams you got to make it up somewhere and you know It's a it's a math it's a math game. but I think that's a I think that's a good place for us to take a pause We're taking a beat here. We'll shut this one down We these things they go they do what they are they do what they do. They go long sometimes whatever But we will we'll come back and the next edition and we will we'll tackle the put up or shut up group I like your name better than mine. So we're gonna go with that Yeah

Torrey (01:09:34.003)
Yeah! Yeah!

Torrey (01:09:55.656)
Mm. Mm.

Alvin Owusu (01:09:59.939)
So either we'll see you in the next segment or we'll see you next time.

Torrey (01:10:05.658)
Peace.