The Pressure Generation | ATP 2025 Review Part 4

Torrey (00:00.363)
Keep it. Pop it.

Alvin Owusu (00:01.838)
We are gonna keep it snappy, that's what we do around here. We keep it pop, pop, pop, pop, poppin'. We're back at it and we're we're rounding out our ATP 2025 year-end review series, if you will, it's a series. We've done three episodes up till now breaking down these groups by age. We've done the Young Guns that are 19 through 21. We've kinda done the Born at the Wrong Time group is what I called them. Those are in the cohort of.

Mr. Center and Mr. Alcaraz and then we hit the, we had a good conversation about those in their prime or approaching their prime, however you want to look at it. In our most recent episode and today we're gonna talk about the group of players that I've titled them as the put up or shut up group. And these are the guys who are currently age 27 to 29. You know these names well, the Alexander Zverevs, the Taylor Fritzs, the Medvedevs of the world.

Torrey (00:46.292)
No.

Alvin Owusu (00:57.518)
But I think before we get into that group, we need to go ahead and call out maybe the elephant in the room, which is Novak Djokovic. He's not in this group by ranking. He's right there by age and accomplishments. He is not. And both of those are a testament to, know, who he is and what he's done. Yeah. I mean, he's, he's, he's 38 years old and he's won the most grand slams of anyone to ever play on the men's tour. I

for that particular reason, we don't really need to consider what he does from here forward to really have much impact on anything, I don't think. he's three, how many, four semifinals at Grand Slams this year, plays a schedule he wants to play. We're happy to see him when he shows up and we're gonna join him until he's no longer showing up.

Torrey (01:43.434)
I'm sorry.

Torrey (01:47.593)
percent.

Torrey (01:51.434)
My son has this saying, Alvin, say less. know, there is, it's just, what can you say that hasn't already been said? You know I mean? There it is.

Alvin Owusu (02:03.35)
Exactly. So we'll move through. So this group is kind of has been the most recent generation of tennis players to be kind of usurped by the last generation of tennis players to be usurped by the big three, but they are also the first generation of players to be impacted by the new two. Right. So Alexander's Vera, Taylor Fritz, Meti. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's all. Yeah.

Torrey (02:27.336)
wave one, tidal wave two.

Alvin Owusu (02:30.702)
It's like what are we really dealing with here? So I think that's the best place for us to start and I wanna start at the top of that group with Alexander Zverev. He can be, actually I wanna let you start. I'm gonna yield the floor to you on this one when we're talking about what's left for Alexander Zverev.

Torrey (02:58.121)
I want to start by saying I known of Basha for many, many years. When I have, when I was working in some with Sco, but on our podcast several times, one of Sco's first big wins was his older brother, Misha Svearif, Eddie Hur, which is going on right now. was the Eddie Hur many, many years ago in Florida and IMG at the time, Ballet Terries. And even then, I remember being on a couple of the ITF trips and Misha was just

Alvin Owusu (03:05.101)
Likewise.

Torrey (03:28.137)
You know, borrow your phrase, Alvin was waxing poetic on his younger brother who was going to be blah, blah, blah. Right. I his very bad and the whole German slash Russian situation and knew them from, from way back. We're talking Mason and Skull were 17, 18 at the time. That's how long this has been 20, 25 years, give or take. So when I say that you can appreciate how long I've known of Alexander. Yeah. And, watch him play.

The kid, I first saw him play some quality matches and playing into the first round. Around the same time I first saw JPEG, Jessica was kind of the same thing. I saw him actually on the court right next to each other early, early days at the US Open. I have seen this young man develop. saw the, I still play this over and and again in my mind, the Dominic team, US Open final, which I still say was a turning point in his career. Fast forward to today.

The sigh is very apropos right now, Alvin. There have been so many. I wanted. Basha to step up and take the rack out of someone's hand. He's imposing. He's tall. He's smooth. He's very athletic for guy his size. He's I'm sick six, as you know, and there are very few players that are taller than I am on tour. And those that are, are very, very tall. Dare I say Lanky almost.

Alvin Owusu (04:27.127)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey (04:53.734)
on the extreme side and have pretty much big servers and maybe one shot wonders from the back court who have been phenomenal by the way, isn't there? Carla Rich and others, but rarely has there been an all court game types that are six, seven. I think he's truly a six, seven because I'm six, six and he's a little taller than me. Sasha has not turned the corner. We had been waiting for so many years. Thought that match when he was playing against Dominic, that would have been a great opportunity. Alvin.

That may have been his best last match and shot at a grand slam. I would have hoped, I understand COVID kind of hurt some momentum because I was right at or during that COVID kind of timeframe. What the 19, Alvin, what did, 1920? It was the COVID, there you go, 2020. So I got, I know I got the year in there wrong, but when you see his ascension and how fast it was, you mentioned, I think that would have been, he would have been 20, 21, 22, right around that, he's 27 now, right?

Alvin Owusu (05:35.053)
It was the COVID US Open. was 2020. 2020, yep.

Alvin Owusu (05:50.989)
28 now. Yeah.

Torrey (05:53.116)
So, is he 20s? 28?

28 now. that would have been, so he would have been 23, right? Give or take. And I think he, I think he had, he had some, so to your point about the whole prime and entering this and that in the third, it's hard to do anything but sigh. You know how good he is. You know what he can do. He rarely lose to people that he shouldn't lose to, but he rarely threatens the top three, including Novak. And that's just tough to see. It's tough to watch. It's tough to see.

Alvin Owusu (06:01.783)
Perfect timing.

Torrey (06:26.33)
a player with that. And I hate to use more potential with him because by this point, potential should be out of the door. should be potentially be maximized by now looking for another, maybe another tweak, another nuance. But I still feel like between his approach to the game, his unwillingness to come forward more, the forehand still goes line to set up his backhand. mean, it just, there's so many predictable aspects to it. And I feel like it's his unwillingness to

take another step, another leap, quantum leap, I would say, that holds him back and he will, unfortunately, if nothing changes, he'll be in the same exact spot as now and possibly, possibly he's a result or two from being, it's in number three, from being number five or number six. And that's where I put it.

Alvin Owusu (07:17.293)
Right, so I mean, kind of similar context of Alexander Zverev that I have, similar to yours. I first saw him at Eddie Her as well, 2016 I believe I was down there, and it might have been a little bit earlier than that actually, I it might have been the 2014 event, regardless, or 2013 event, doesn't really matter. I think it was 2013. But he is more or less the same,

He's just a better version of the same player as he was when he was the number one junior in the world, right? And at that particular event, I saw him losing the first round to an American. I forget the guy's name, played at Stanford, yada, yada, yada. Doesn't really matter, but we're at this point now where he's done everything he can do except for win a Grand Slam, right? He's finaled a few of them. You mentioned that 2020 was open. There was the 2020.

for French Open final that he lost against Carlos, tough match. Carlos just stepped up a little bit at the end. And then the most recent 2025 Australian Open against Center that was as competitive as those previous two Grand Slam final visits. what do we?

Torrey (08:33.937)
which came on the heels of a, I'm so sorry, a Novak Retire in the semi, which you have to, I had to interject out because you don't know if that one may not have been there had Novak been healthy. And that's again, my issue with Alex.

Alvin Owusu (08:38.628)
Right. Right.

Torrey (08:51.854)
You would have liked to have seen him challenged with a fresher, if you will, walk over match previous, right? So I just wanted to throw that in there because even that had an answer to it.

Alvin Owusu (08:58.369)
Right. So, yeah, it mattered. I mean, it mattered and that is another instance of an opportunity that he's now, necessarily lost or an opportunity that has passed him, right? So, but now we're at age 28, right? He's been on tour for 10 years, 11 years. I think we're at the point where it's not just, it is what it is. I think we've actually gone past the prime here, because everything you said about his game is true. Big serve, good mover.

solid as all hell from both wings, but that is kind of no longer enough to just maintain, right? Because now we have players like Taylor Fritz, who is right behind him, who has been in the last 18 months, gotten the measure of Alexander Zverev, who is probably his biggest competitor for that third spot, true third spot, take no back out of it. And I would say Taylor has passed him.

Right, and now we're looking at a year in which Alex has lost 25 matches and I think to like 17 different players and he's lost the center like four or five times. So like it's not as the ranking itself is built off of a lot of it's coming off of that particular trip to the finals. We fast forward, know, six weeks from now, seven weeks from now and this Australian Open, next Australian Open is finished. If he doesn't final again, let's say he pulls a, you know, he hasn't had a fantastic.

Torrey (09:55.501)
Hmm.

Torrey (10:01.029)
Mmm.

Alvin Owusu (10:23.373)
He didn't have fantastic year in the Grand Slams outside of that one. If he lives in the round of 16, things start to get a little ugly for Mr. Zverev, right? He's been very consistent at a lot of the Masters events and he shows up at those, made a couple semifinals this year. That's great. That's about what we expect out of him. But as far as contending for Grand Slams, brother. yeah, I think we're done. I think we're done. I'd even like to say, who's going to be the person

Torrey (10:29.669)
END

Torrey (10:46.512)
What

Alvin Owusu (10:53.229)
pops one if something happens to Carlos or Janek. I still don't think Alex is that person. And he's lost the Felix a few times this year. He's lost to, I mean, yeah, he's lost to Senna a lot of times, but he's also lost to Rinderknecht twice, right? There's like the random, he's lost, yeah, he's lost the Met, he's lost the Metty, he's lost the, like Taylor kinda owns him right now. Like there's, he's lost the Hatchinoff, like there's, which these are all really, really good players, but.

Torrey (11:10.626)
good matches too by the way.

Alvin Owusu (11:22.613)
If you were to be that three through five guy that is supposed to be the one to catch the drop pass per se, then you need to be consistently beating these guys. You need to be losing to the centers and Alcarazas and not really much anyone else. So that's.

Torrey (11:39.065)
Right. I would also say that he didn't used to lose to those kinds of players and to your point and that's there's a change.

Alvin Owusu (11:43.401)
Exactly, that's the change.

That's the change, Taylor has passed him. I don't know that anyone else, yeah, I don't think that anyone else has specifically passed him. Taylor has passed him and then everyone else is starting to, there's blood in the water there. Everyone else is getting their licks in as well. And that's the, you would say, okay, it's one year, fine. If he rides the ship in the first six months of next year, great, then I'll take it all back. But I haven't seen anything in his game that makes me go.

Torrey (11:51.172)
Stick a fork in the mouth. Stick a fork in it.

Alvin Owusu (12:17.416)
yeah, he can turn around. Here are the changes. The changes he needs to make are changes he should have made in the last five, six, seven years, right? It ain't happening. So what am I supposed to do with that? What am I supposed to do with that? I'm just a guy sitting here on a microphone talking my talk, but I ain't seen it. I ain't seen it. So I'll leave it there. I'll leave it there with Taylor. I mean, sorry, with Alex. It is what it is. It is what it is.

Torrey (12:25.668)
Yeah.

Torrey (12:35.192)
Yeah. No.

Alvin Owusu (12:47.276)
But let's move to his foil, his American foil, Taylor Fritz.

I feel like we're gonna give Taylor a lot of time in our US tennis State of the Union podcast in a couple weeks, but I'm happy with Taylor Fritz right now.

Torrey (13:08.611)
you happy Alvin? Why are happy? What has Taylor shown you that makes you think that his future is bright when we both have him in the put up or shut up column?

Alvin Owusu (13:21.74)
Well, he's here because of his age, right? He is 27. He's right there in that window. But I've seen enough improvements over the last two years to put himself solidly in that top five space, somewhere in that three through five. But it seems like he's getting comfortable there. He might be hitting his ceiling, which...

All I want from a player, all I want for a player is to maximize what you have. Get the most out of your tennis career. Leave no stone unturned. Do everything that you can do to be the best and most productive tennis player that you can be while you're on the pro tour. And I, I'm getting that from Taylor Fritz. He is doing everything that he can do and he is bumping up against the big boys. that he's typically losing to Novak, Carlos.

or Ionic in the matches, the tournaments that matter. That's what I want for my three or four best player in the world. Yeah.

Torrey (14:25.293)
Right. And even when he lost to Jakub Mincek in Miami, that was a knockdown drag out, two or three, I think it was three sets. That was just all that there was just everything you could ask for. If anything, I was more impressed with Jakub for winning it than I was disappointed for Taylor and not. it was just, that was just a Cinderella tournament for him. I agree with you, Alvin. I agree with you more so on, feel he's getting close to that ceiling. I saw him at the Atlanta Open a year, it a two years ago when he won it. Saw him.

not as impressed with his movement, never have been very impressed with his serve, his control of the serve and his forehand. He's a throwback, right? He's a throwback to the big serve, big forehand kind of player. You know, the the Roddick School of Tennis back in the day. I love his feel around the net. I was very impressed with his adeptness on grass. I was, I never really thought, I thought big serve, big forehand, all that. He actually moves pretty well for the grass. And Alvin, he

Alvin Owusu (15:23.872)
He's the third best grass court player in the world.

Torrey (15:25.885)
to my point and he returns unbelievable on the grass. so, and I would say, you gotta go. There's no back again, right? Always, always skewing our conversation. But I say it to say, right, you can't. I mean, how can you? But I was impressed with his ability to return, which a lot of guys don't necessarily return great on the grass. He stays low enough. He's strong enough. He has good enough hands that he can make that grass court play be, you know, to his favor. So if, if that alone.

Alvin Owusu (15:28.743)
fourth fourth fourth

No back, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let us not forget.

Torrey (15:55.969)
I look at tournaments like that and this whole list in particular, and I say to myself, hmm, around or two, two in particular, different in the grand slam, you won't be where you are next year. Right. And that's what I don't like about Zverev. I could see Taylor going that far, if not farther in Wimby this year, just because he has that ability to, to play well on the grass. I don't see him getting upset. I don't see the him not defending those points. He's right there.

Alvin Owusu (16:07.563)
right.

Torrey (16:24.287)
My biggest beef with Taylor was not knocking off Nadal when he had him three years ago and Nadal had the underhand serve. But even then, where was he, Alvin? He was in the quarters and playing Nadal. So I say it to say, if that's my big beef that him not kicking the door down on an aging veteran, I feel like if that's something I can say against him, he was still in that match. And so I say it to say, think Taylor will certainly have something to do this year.

While I do agree with you, he's, he's pushing toward the upper limits of his glass ceiling. He is certainly still pushing, you know, upward and not coming down on that apex.

Alvin Owusu (17:04.46)
Yeah, and you look at his Grand Slam results from this year, right? And I would say the only, he had a pretty bad rolling garros, right? Lost in the first round to Altmeier, which is a, that's actually considering it's on clay, Altmeier is a pros pro, that's, you don't wanna be a top four seed losing in the first round of a Grand Slam, but that's playing someone who's, know, top 70 in the world, that's not a, that's not a gimme, regardless, it.

Torrey (17:15.159)
Yep.

Torrey (17:18.422)
Yeah. Right.

100%.

Torrey (17:27.435)
Yep. And a clay quarter. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (17:29.932)
It happened, it happened, right? But I don't expect him to lose in the first round of a Grand Slam next year. So he's got a lot of points to make up there, right? Yeah, exactly. And then round of 32, Australian Open, lost to Monfils. Okay, that's one where you expect him to at least be in the quarters of the Australian Open. And then quarterfinal loss at US Open to Novak and a semifinal loss at Wimbledon to Carlos. You could flip flop those, kind of depends on where you drop in the draw. This is about...

Torrey (17:36.769)
Right, not even France. Yup.

Torrey (17:47.297)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey (17:53.643)
Yep.

Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (18:00.692)
He could be his normal self next year and probably come out with similar 11 wins at Grand Slams next year. And that gets him right back to the same spot.

Torrey (18:08.737)
And if not improved, as you said, because he has points to gain from that unfortunate first round match, first round loss in the French, which a lot of people lost in the French early. If memory serves, it was a bloodbath, right? So I say it to say, and while I at Zverev, I don't know if that final is gonna be a repeatable situation for him going into it. So to my point, again, I see him getting where he can, I see him.

Alvin Owusu (18:20.072)
Yeah, that was a funny one.

Torrey (18:36.866)
I see him, if anything, improving, which doesn't bode well for, unfortunately, for Mrs. Varev, but bodes very well for Taylor.

Alvin Owusu (18:45.504)
Yeah, and I don't wanna necessarily throw all the shade in the world at Alexander Zverev. mean, he, know, very similar results at Grand Slams this year. It's just a matter of everything else that I've seen just doesn't, it's more of the eye test. It doesn't feel right. I haven't seen anything that makes me go, is, we can turn this around and go the other direction.

Torrey (19:08.361)
Right. And he won't lose first round to most people if ever, but he. Popped first round loss. Ridiculous. And so my point is he won't have that will happen often. Unfortunately, the next final may not happen often either. And so that's the only thing I'm saying. And notice, Alvin, I dropped him to five. I didn't drop him to 15. I didn't jump into 25. Five. He's going to be consistent all day long. You got to go through Alexander's Ver. And you can is the only problem.

Alvin Owusu (19:12.424)
He also lost, but he also popped a first round loss though Wimbledon like he lost their render Kinesh. Yeah, so

Alvin Owusu (19:23.244)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (19:30.646)
Right.

Torrey (19:37.876)
People have continued to see that it's possible. just don't, I don't see him dropping a lot. I just don't see him pushing ahead.

Alvin Owusu (19:45.516)
Yeah, it's like it's asking the question about the group that we talked about in our last episode. Like, can Felix show us that he is consistently ready to kind of move into that space? Can Alex de Menor recreate the year he had and maybe bump it up just a smidge? Those are the players that have the actual ability to pass him. It's whether or not they can actually go take it. It's there for the taking, but can they actually go and take it is the question. Let's bounce down a little bit to, okay.

If I told you, if I told you that a player lost in the first round of Australian Open, first round of the French Open, first round of Wimbledon, second round of the US Open, yet finished the year at 13 in the world, you would say.

Torrey (20:30.256)
And you told me that he was a two time former Grand Slam champ and two time, two time, think finalist, right?

Alvin Owusu (20:35.979)
One time Grand Slam champ, two or at least two, maybe three time finalists. Yeah, he's been there a lot. Yeah.

Torrey (20:39.634)
Sorry, one time and two time finals.

Torrey (20:47.208)
And that was how many years ago and this happened this year? I hear your question, by the way. I'm just trying to put it in context to say, and which way are we heading?

Alvin Owusu (20:58.667)
I would say, so we're talking about Daniil Medvedev, right? But I'm gonna, I feel like you're gonna say he's headed down and I'm gonna say he's not dead yet. Because with all that, with that horrible Grand Slam year, horrible, he won one match at four Grand Slams this year, he's still ranked top 15 in the world. Like was still able to salvage the year.

Torrey (21:03.697)
You

Torrey (21:12.831)
Mm.

Alvin Owusu (21:26.611)
and not completely lose his ass out there. think we saw, he probably had his worst year. I think he's got one more run in him. I think he's got one more run in him.

Torrey (21:35.488)
He's got one more run. I'm not sure how fast that runs going to be. I agree with you, Alvin. He's got one more run on that. agree. I'm pushing back on one thing. You mentioned it earlier with Alexander, the eye test. Do I see him getting better? Do I see him changing? Everything I just said about Alex, I could say about Danil. Not coming forward.

Alvin Owusu (21:40.299)
You

Alvin Owusu (21:51.403)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (22:02.749)
Refuses to refuse it to come in and take advantage of that big back in the line and use his six foot six frame and knock off a volley. You know, the I watched the learner 10 match with him and and and Danieel and I said to myself, at what point are you not going to come forward and show the youngster that you can take away time? And he refused. He complained about the balls. He complained about the complaint about the speed of the game. And the if I'm not mistaken.

And the level of tennis is just him and Tetsopas and others were just almost overwhelmed. And I'm like, you guys have been at that baseline for I don't know how long. And now the new generation is coming through tagging the ball where risk is no longer risk. If I don't see it as risk and you have let these guys play, you know, the game we used to play a lot, Alvin, we play shooter, right? You've let these guys play shooter on you because they know you're not.

And that's what I feel both the eye test Alvin as well as history. He is much, much closer being done than he is repeating some of his tennis, some of his best tennis from a few years ago. Do I see him having one more year? I do. We agree on that. Do I see that year being, do I see this being a banner year for Danielle? No, I do not.

Alvin Owusu (23:16.627)
Alright, we agree on that.

Alvin Owusu (23:22.857)
No, and that's a fair assessment. I think I'm with you. It's more like if I were to project my expectations for Daniil next year, I don't think it's a, I mean at one point he was definitely at risk of falling outside of the top 30. He might have actually fallen outside of the top 30 at some point this year, but has regrouped enough kind of since hardcore summer to get, mean post US Open, let's be honest, to get himself.

Torrey (23:48.776)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (23:50.379)
back in a decent position going into the Australian Open. Yeah, the one difference between the two players, because your argument is, I think, spot on, there isn't much of a difference when you're looking at it on paper. And I would say the same thing, actually, if you add in Taylor first to this. It's like, but what do I feel like their tolerance is for change? I feel feel like Daniil actually is trying.

I feel like he is going to, is trying. I don't know if he's going to succeed. I don't know if he has the ability to change his stripes, but he is at least, he at least sounds like he's trying, which as as a, as a, as a person sitting on the sideline, I go, okay, I gotta, I gotta take it. He, he sounds like he's trying. I see, I see Taylor and hear Taylor moving towards the ceiling. I feel like I was very, if you look at them all at the same time,

is not doing much but complaining. And so that's the nuanced difference that I see between the three of them.

Yeah, it's like I said, it's a nuanced difference. It's a very nuanced difference.

Torrey (24:58.677)
You

To your credit, I don't see him losing that bad in all the slams next year. I will give him that bone because he is a Grand Slam champion and he's a multiple time finalist and the guy is just tough to beat, period. We get that. Changing, I'm gonna push back on that. No need to comment on it. History will tell us. And unfortunately, his history has shown us that that hasn't happened. I get that you are a Daniel fan. I too like Daniel. He's funny.

Alvin Owusu (25:29.483)
Damn it, it's showing, isn't it? Yeah.

Torrey (25:31.267)
It's just, but let's call a spade, spade. And he is unfortunate where he's at. And at 29, he looks a step slow. He looks further in the baseline than he has been in years past. And he looks like he's actually trying to slap bigger, not necessarily come forward and make a change. I saw Roger change in the last four or five years. And I'm not comparing. I saw Nadal.

Alvin Owusu (25:41.257)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Torrey (25:59.582)
throwing more slice and equipment to net a bit more. I've seen Novak become a serving volleyer on the grass with very good hands and very adept around the net for a guy that had no serve, no four and no volleys. Okay. I've seen players change. I've seen players morph. I've seen players get more complete. Saw Boris Becker go from all serving volley and diving on the grass to have one of the best backhands and some of the best solid game. I've seen Agassi go from, you know, all bang and no grind to

They called him the punisher by the time he was done because he would just punish you and keep the points going longer and take your legs out from under you. have seen change, Alvin. I have seen players that were one way coming in and had the unreal ability to be so extra on the other side. I don't know if these handful of players we're talking about have that in them to change or have, or have shown you the, the, the steps toward that change. And so just want to make sure we're unclear.

to our listeners and viewers out there, change to me is change. Not I want to, not I sound like it, not I'm hoping to, no, no, no, no, change. And up to this point, they have not.

Alvin Owusu (27:08.127)
Well,

Okay, so let's talk about a tangible change then. So Medvedev partnered with this former coach, Gilles Favres, right after the US Open, right? Okay, and Gilles actually is, well Gilles actually just announced that he's gonna be with Vassar Verretti next year. That's interesting, we can probably talk about that another time when some of that dust settles with all these other coaching changes. bringing on Thomas Johansson after the US Open, right? And they will continue forward in 2006.

Torrey (27:17.744)
Yup. Yup. Yup. Thanks, Rockets. Yup. Sorry.

Alvin Owusu (27:40.875)
goes from the kind of decimal year up through the US Open to actually starting to put together some decent results, right? It's the semifinal of Beijing, I got to the semifinal of Shanghai, wins Almaty, quarterfinals of the Paris Masters. So like at that point, like if you're bringing in a new voice and then that new voice helps you kind of right the ship in the back end of your year, now you have a full off season together and then we move forward to 2026, that is why I'm helpful. I just don't.

Torrey (27:56.346)
See you.

Alvin Owusu (28:10.824)
Yeah, that is why I'm helpful, period. Hopeful. Hope.

Torrey (28:13.325)
and hopeful is a good thing. I'm with you all day. I pick up what you're putting down, remains to be seen in my book. However, love it, love Tom Schreinsohn by the way, great player. Talk about change. I mean, that brother came out of nowhere and played one of the greats in the French Open finals that I remember and did everything, threw everything but the kitchen sink at Saffin. I mean, just did it and even serving volley because hey, why not? And I'm just saying, so that's a great person to bring into his arsenal right now.

And to your point, he's had a very nice uptick as of late and I hope that that's made the change for him. Daniel the fighter always has been, he and his buddy, who hope we talk about next, have continued to entertain me for years. And I'm hoping that both of them stay relevant. And as I say, I don't think he'll lose that often at all the slams. So to your point, great opportunity to pick up on some points and that alone will bump him up from 13 to whatever he is now.

Alvin Owusu (29:12.276)
Yeah, speaking of his buddy, do you wanna go straight to Rublev? Is that what you wanna do?

Torrey (29:17.324)
Love Andre, I think I was so hopeful of when, is he still working with Simon or has that changed?

Alvin Owusu (29:19.624)
Let's do it.

Alvin Owusu (29:24.788)
I think that as far as I know that's still thing. They're still whatever they are.

Torrey (29:26.895)
Right. I'm just hoping that he can continue to get him to be a little more, a little bit more, take a few more risks. And I don't mean by just banging it harder. mean, tactically, he is one of the hardest hitting. It reminds me a lot of Zverev with his tactics. Different patterns, mind you, but very tactically safe, even though they have Zverev rolls it more than Andrei Apsi.

obviously tags it, but they are both the feast off the cross court and they rarely go bigger cross wide or they rarely go step up line. And I feel like for all that they do, they're kind of predictable. I remember watching the match. I gotta think it was, it was Wimby where I saw

Alvin Owusu (30:15.998)
He played Alcara as at Wimbledon.

Torrey (30:16.091)
Was it Wimbledon or was it U.S. Wimbledon, Alcara's Wimbledon match. And to me, that was my problem with Wimbledon for Alcara's is he picked a bit early, right? If you, and I don't want to, I just do a quick segue here. Quick, quick caveat. In the middle of Wimbledon, the future champion got a walk over down two sets to zero.

Alvin Owusu (30:20.362)
That was an amazing match.

Torrey (30:43.802)
Two sets to zero and the guy pulled out. The eventual finalist played his best match. I want to it was quarters. Ryan Esquire had the quarters. Played unbelievable. He was out hitting one of the hardest hitters on tour back behind him cross court on grass. There was some shots that had that Andre looked over and was like, you got to be kidding me. He was visibly stunned. To my point, God, he was playing well.

Alvin Owusu (31:10.57)
Andre was playing so well in that match and Carlos went straight like Mario star and Sonic at the same time for about 45 minutes. was unreal, unreal.

Torrey (31:17.295)
Boom.

unbelievable ball striking. And unfortunately he came down from that level the rest of the next two matches. And of course, my boy, Yannick got away with one and just kind of kept playing a little bit of the rest of the way after he was given that absolute lottery ticket anyway. And I say it to say nothing against Yannick winning the match. was his tournament hands down. However, that match told me that he can still strike, but it also started telling me a little bit

His tactics, he's got to take a few more changes. He's got to start coming more forward. He's got to throw in an occasional drop. He's got to do something that's going to change his altitude and change what the other players are expecting. And at some point, Alvin, that to me is the habit that gets harder and harder to change. It's not like he's, you know, not like he's a threat in anything else. He does what you think he's going to do, which unfortunately is what makes him

Alvin Owusu (32:18.634)
I agree, I agree. And I think there's a perspective shift that we're looking at here. Like he's no longer looking at the guys in front of him necessarily trying to figure out how am I going to catch them at this point in his career. It's like, okay, how do I hold my spot? How do I keep those up and comers from usurping me and kicking me out of the, you know, I'd say 10 to 15 range is about where you're gonna spot them right now.

Can he go higher than that? I feel like that time's probably passed, but can he hold on to that? I think that's the task. That is the task for the rest of his career. Add enough variety to keep younger players from pushing him out until he's ready to go, which hopefully is no time in the near future, but we're probably closer to the end than we are to the beginning of his career. Fair enough to say.

Torrey (33:10.54)
percent.

Alvin Owusu (33:15.486)
which I think is the lens we look through with a lot of these players. We're talking about glass ceilings and we're talking about pushing off defenders. This is why it's put up or shut up time and maybe it's a little bit past that actually.

Torrey (33:19.512)
Holla!

Torrey (33:29.034)
He's certainly in the in the or shut up category. He's certainly in that same category with with Daniil and with Alexander and a few others that we may mention here. But again, don't think has Andre ever made a semi of a slam if he has it's I would think so. But but I'm I'm struggling to remember when and I know he hadn't made a final. So I say that to say

Alvin Owusu (33:44.746)
Alvin Owusu (33:52.542)
He and JPEG kind of had the same stat for a while where they hadn't made, like the most quarterfinals though, having made a semifinal. Have to check.

Torrey (33:55.276)
Right.

Torrey (33:59.193)
I'm almost sure. don't think he's made and I can be one of the viewers or listeners will point that out to us. I'll look it up here afterwards, but it hasn't been many if it's been one or two at all. But I say that to say for a guy that's been on the tour for 10 plus years to have not made one or let's just say he has made very few to be safe. That is troubling in and of itself. So it lets you know that next echelon, right? That next echelon, I think he's been inside top 10 numerous times, but he has not been

He has not been a semi finalist, certainly not a perennial semi finalist on anybody's watch. And to me, that's how you make the cut to truly stay, in my opinion, top 10, top eight, right? And numerically speaking, of course, but also with the, with the, you know, with the amount of confidence in the room, people, they, do the other guys see you as a true semi finalist and the guy that will beat down everybody else, but just hasn't found a way to.

to pick the lock of the top two or three. So that's why I feel like he's on the or shut up side where, you know, you hate to say it, Alvin, you hate to say it. Mr. Consistency, I hate to keep bringing his name up. Three, four semis in the last four slams, 38 has found a way to stay relevant. Man, I mean, how am I a guy 10 years younger, not able to...

Alvin Owusu (35:23.401)
Talk about defining your floor.

Torrey (35:26.553)
You know what I'm saying? I mean, think about that. You know, you got a guy that's 10 years old. That's the equivalent of LeBron James scoring a triple double still, you know, at this day and age, which I know I heard a streak just got broke the other day. So shout out to LeBron for giving us 1200 unbelievable games. But think about that. If LeBron was still scoring triple doubles right now, right now, every game and lead this team to at least the playoff finals of conference and obviously even NCAA champs.

Alvin Owusu (35:40.392)
Yeah.

Torrey (35:55.064)
NBA finals. Think about that. That's what we're talking about with what Novak's doing. I mean, that's how unheard of what he's doing is. Now you look at a player who's not that old, you know, maybe the likes of a Draymond, maybe the likes of you know, of a, you know, I'm going to put out some guys like your, clays and your, you know, your hearts, your KDs, you know, what are you doing now? You know, that's, that's where you got to, oh, he's probably somewhere in the middle of that. I'm sure there's 10 other players. There's a

Alvin Owusu (36:06.729)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (36:22.732)
that they are in that same mix. But you get my point with the basketball analogy and what if they were not getting it done or down into 10 points or lower category now you'd say to yourself, I trading them or am I building a team around them? I think you'd be trading them. That's all I'm saying. If we were, if we're talking a different sport, that's what you'd be doing.

Alvin Owusu (36:37.745)
Right, yeah.

That's fair. Wanna kinda quickly bounce down a little bit to a guy who used to be in this cohort and is kinda no longer. One Stephanos Sitsipas. Stephanos has been in the woods for, you know, the bad part of the woods for the last two-ish years or so. Let's get a year and a half. His tennis has been spotty, again, with the improvements that we haven't seen.

Torrey (36:51.8)
Mmm.

you

Alvin Owusu (37:12.809)
injuries creeping in. None of it is a combination for optimism. Let's put it that way. Not a combination for optimism.

Torrey (37:21.761)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (37:27.397)
He's probably the one I'm most worried about, obviously. mean, the ranking makes it easy to call this one out, right? He's now currently outside the top 30. He's going into the Australian Open unseated. If that's what's happening and we don't correct this quickly, like in Australia, pop a quarterfinal and eradicate things, we're creeping towards 50 real fast and then things get difficult for you as a professional tennis player.

Torrey (37:58.027)
you find yourself facing one of the big four in the first or second round. You know what I mean? And now and numerically, let alone the blood in the water with everybody else. But I think he's done. really been there, been there. It is and I have loved Stefanos since since the junior days. Trent Brad played the finals back in the day and a couple of the ITFs. And then when I first heard his name and

Alvin Owusu (38:02.917)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (38:08.797)
Yeah, the blood's there. The blood in the water's there. Yeah.

Torrey (38:25.313)
knew how good he was, a oney, so of course I love a good oney. Had not been very pleased, saw an article about Gorn, even Isovich was kind of ripping him a new one about how unprepared, how unprofessional he was. Didn't like that, they parted ways afterwards, I thought maybe even the skin was a little bit too thin to take the harsh criticism and kind of get back where we need to be. And while I necessarily like Gorn,

Alvin Owusu (38:40.637)
Yep, yep.

Torrey (38:53.11)
publicly lambasting him as a lamb blast or lambast doing that lamp Noel right now the set no second help lambasting him may not have been the best thing maybe he's doing it to kind of call him out a little bit I'm not sure I don't know the relationship perhaps could have kept that between the two of them and and emberley known but either way he wasn't wrong and I look at it also to say and what has happened since nothing no change and to me it's all back to the same thing if the greats are changing and you're not

Alvin Owusu (38:57.139)
Lambest, lambest.

Torrey (39:22.944)
You're probably not one of the greats. COVID happened, Alvin. This is my one quick thing I mentioned to you before we can move on, because there's not much talk about about Stefanos. Adidas had a great ad campaign. We're talking about the tennis, talking about everything. COVID had changed everything. They had two simple words in two periods. Ampions. Adjust.

Torrey (39:45.376)
mic drop. So if you're not, then probably the other part is also not true. And that's where we are with Stefanos.

Alvin Owusu (39:53.651)
And it's happening from both directions too, right? He hasn't made the adjustments to hang with this cohort and make inroads with those above him. And then also, you we referenced, we talked about Alex Mickelson a couple episodes ago. Alex came out and smacked him first, first tournament of the year. Like he, Alex beat him in the first round of the Australian Open this year. That was Alex's coming out party. That was Cephanosis. Everyone's like, what's going on with you? But it wasn't just the result of Alex beating him in,

four sets fairly handily. It was the way Alex did it and the way, I remember watching this match very intently going, Alex is walking around this court, he showed up expecting to win this match. He's like, oh yeah, I got this pass in the first round and then I get a day off and then I'll play such and in the second round. It's like, whoa, this dude is final two Grand Slams? you're just treating him like we're in opposite roles here. He's the opening round.

warmup match and that was worrisome, obviously. Was able to, mean, switched rackets at one point this year, went to the Pure Arrow in Dubai, won Dubai, fantastic. Round of 16 at Indian Wells right after that, okay, we'll take that. And then regression to the meet, right? 32 at Miami, quarterfinals Monte Carlo and then now we started to, I think injury set in a little bit.

Torrey (41:14.121)
Ha ha ha ha

Alvin Owusu (41:19.176)
some confidence issues, some things weren't great at home with the Mrs. issues. And now where it's either, I think he's the true put up or shut up. I think this is the redemption year for him. We need to be healthy starting, let's just assume he's healthy coming into Australian Open. Let's assume his mind's right. Let's assume he and his dad have their situation worked out. But this is a lot of things where based on what I've seen in the last 12 months, I don't know why I should expect anything different.

Torrey (41:23.776)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Torrey (41:42.879)
lot of this.

Alvin Owusu (41:47.824)
next year, but if not, because he has fallen so far from where he was rankings wise, it is imperative that we rectify these things now, because if not, we're tumbling. We're tumbling.

Torrey (42:00.501)
think we're past imperative, Alvin, to be very, to be very frank, and I don't think that there's a lot of things to change all at once. You know what I mean? And so to me, that's why I was a little shark tank, be Barbara Cochran. That reason I'm out. You know what I mean? It just, it's just what I would say, given, given the history of what he has and hasn't done recently, could he? Of course he could. Is it likely? As I said before, say less.

Alvin Owusu (42:31.528)
I think that's a good place for us to actually stop today. That was fun. I think 2025 was a fun year. I think we touched it all. We kind of specifically did not go in depth with some of the American players because we're gonna save that for the end of the year. Yeah, we're gonna lay out big for that one. But until then.

Torrey (42:45.461)
Talk about them later. Sure.

Yep. And I do want to make it make make one quick note out of it. If I can, there are three players you didn't get to that I think are still surging. Perhaps some of them the college hole standpoint, and I would be remiss not to mention the main man, Vachero and my and and and and Sarandolo and and and even others like my main man, Cam Norris. 

Alvin Owusu (43:45.924)
Yeah, Vashro27, we are, to take a line from Jay-Z, I wanna figure out if he's a hot line or a hot song. Let's give it a, I'm gonna give, let's give it a minute. I'm just gonna give it a minute. All right. And with that, best of three, we are out.

Torrey (43:53.868)
I love it. I love it.