The State of American Women’s Tennis (2025) – Who’s Next After Coco, Pegula & Anisimova?

Alvin Owusu (00:01.478)

And welcome to another edition of the best three podcast TH. We are here. One more, one more before the Australia Open. We are here to to kind of lay out our US women's year in review state of the union. We've gone through them in. We've talked about the rest of the tour. Last but not least, let's give the ladies their shine. I'm excited about this one. How about yourself?

Torrey (00:25.425)

Absolutely. I am, I am. We gotta get the ladies a shine on. You know what I mean? And well deserved, great year for them in general, let alone the US women. Really feel good about what they were able to achieve this past year. had some, know, obviously we're gonna get into it with all the various results, but I feel like it was not only a great year for women's tennis. I felt like the, as far as the quality of the matches and the quality, I felt like the...

a sense of some of the quote unquote newcomers really made the field more competitive. All right up to the end of the year, know, WTA final. I mean, I feel like it had enough intrigue, you know, enough changes in the guard, changing leads. There was four different grand slam champs. mean, you just couldn't put your finger on who was the clear cut favorite, which always makes for good TV, for good entertainment.

But most importantly, Alvin, was, I feel like the women's tour really, dare I say outshone the men's tour this year in terms of how many different players you tuned in to watch and really wanted to pull for at any given time. And even from some players who weren't necessarily in that top five category that you really were pulling for and had some great matches. was a great, just a great storyline the whole year. So yeah.

I'm very excited about this episode as well.

Alvin Owusu (01:54.476)

Yeah, I'll echo that. We obviously had four different Grand Slam champions on the women's side this year. Also to be marked and more relevant to this particular podcast, we had a US women in every Grand Slam final this year picking up two wins. Obviously Amanda Samova with her finals in both Wimbledon and US Open. Coco Golf winning the French Open.

Madison Keys coming out of nowhere, when the Australia opened, like women's tennis on the American side is, I'm not gonna say peak, we're not in the days of Celis or Serena or Capriotti or Davenport, this isn't the 90s, know, but I think considering how global our game is, we're doing pretty damn well.

Torrey (02:38.846)

Yeah, pretty 100%. Dora Close album, I will say that. And especially if you look at the depth of the number of players that are pushing that top level, mean, trust me. And I've coined this term with you and when we first started this, the post-goat era, which Serena was a big part of, I feel like the women, the women's game has come out of that goat era and is starting to replace with their own goat.

Alvin Owusu (02:46.979)

Right.

Torrey (03:08.721)

goes in the making right now. And I feel like it's in a great place. A lot of inertia, the vacuum is now refilled with new talent. And we are just chock full of new players ready to make their mark on the game. And that only makes, know, iron sharpens iron, right? It only makes the top get even stronger. And then you really see, to me, how good they really are. If you have...

Alvin Owusu (03:28.28)

Yeah. Yep.

Torrey (03:35.643)

If a top player stays at the top too long and the others aren't really pushing them, they get a little stale. They get a little dull on the edge. And I feel when those other players, know, and then we'll get into it later, when they start getting pushed and don't know that they are the favorite, all of a sudden they gotta train a harder. They go through a little bit more nerves. You start really testing the metal. You only do that with high heat and a little bit. And there's been a lot of high heat in this year on the women's side of the ball.

Alvin Owusu (03:58.787)

Heh.

Torrey (04:04.514)

So I'm really excited for next year, but obviously, as you said, let's give the ladies a shine on right now and let them have an opportunity to really kind of reflect on what was an incredible year.

Alvin Owusu (04:14.893)

Absolutely, absolutely. So we'll start kind of top of the mountain here and there's a lot of meat in the top 10 here for the women, the US women, which some of it will be a little bit of retread from our WTA year interview, but I want to make sure that we cover it here before we get into what I think we both believe is the more interesting story a little bit further down the rankings. So, Coco Golf finished the year ranked three, right?

Torrey (04:21.5)

Mm.

Alvin Owusu (04:43.885)

I think any year you win a Grand Slam, put a checkbox next to it. That's a good year. That's a good year. I don't know that we... On paper, we didn't really learn much about Coco this year. We saw kind of the same struggles, right? Like when the forehand goes off, she's in trouble, she's vulnerable. The serve is a work in progress as well. But there are things that she will bring every single day she comes to the tennis court, which is...

Torrey (04:46.749)

a pretty good year.

Alvin Owusu (05:13.805)

She's the best mover on tour, right? And she fights like none other and I think probably has the highest floor maybe behind Sabalinka, right? On her worst day, she's still semi-final at Grand Slam on her worst day. Hell, she can win at Grand Slam not playing quote unquote good tennis, which I think we've talked about. I say that in quotations for those of you not watching on YouTube.

Torrey (05:33.852)

Sure. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (05:41.89)

good tennis, like she is the embodiment of what you would consider to be winning ugly, but does it at an elite level. Move, make balls, never give in, bang on returns. That is the Koko Golf package and I think it travels well and the results speak for themselves.

Torrey (06:04.628)

Yep. 100 % agree. I feel like obviously her, the Grand Slam was on the clay this year, which I thought was phenomenal. I don't, haven't tracked all of her results on clay, I know this is probably her best year on clay to date, which to me is always a big thing, especially for American players. We have never in general been as adept on the clay, on the terrible two as I was just having grown up on it, right? So it's something that's a little more foreign to it. I was really impressed with her.

performance this year. Getting that win on clay, making yourself believe you can win on the clay was a big deal. Alvin, I made a comment to you that I told you struck me about Novak years ago about I kept looking at what he was doing wrong at the time without looking at how he was competing with the top and how much better he could still get if those things improved, right? And I would put this squarely.

Alvin Owusu (06:59.629)

Hmm?

Torrey (07:03.235)

Same comparison on Cocoa Golf. You are so right and yet what if those two things could be improved substantially? How much better could Cocoa Golf get? It's scary to think because she's winning Grand Slams with a serve that's still a work in progress and still averaging. mean at one point she was averaging double digit double faults in a match. Imagine if she starts to hold serve consistently and convincingly.

Alvin, we got a player on our hands. And imagine if that forehand goes from being the shot that you attack to the shot that exposes and can finish you. You already know she can move well. You already know the backhand solid. You already know she can volley. You already know she's a pretty good doubles player. There is a strong chance that Coco Gough, if she got some of those things sorted out and really got her confidence and those two things down, there is a strong chance Coco could come out next year and win two or three easily.

Not easily in the sense of easily done, but very, it's well within the realm of possibility because of her game style, because of her traveling so well. And if those two glaring, would say, weaknesses were to be fixed, patched, improved, shored up, whatever word you want to call it, Alvin, she has that much left to go. So I'm really looking forward, I was impressed with this past year. And this was the work in progress year where she's finally starting to address some of these things.

her next year. Wow. I mean, it's it'll be it'll be something to see.

Alvin Owusu (08:36.298)

Yeah, I'm less bullish on what she could become because I think at this point, she's been on tour for about four years. I mean, just think about how much she's accomplished in four years with the package that she has and has made incremental improvements as a professional tennis player as she's continued to grow. You gotta remember, she's only 21 years old, right? even from a physical peak standpoint, she's still probably...

Torrey (09:00.411)

I'm sick.

Alvin Owusu (09:03.725)

three, four years away from her physical, just her physical peak, maturing and strengthening as a player. You look at someone like Amanda and some of them, Amanda's three years older than Coco and just starting to kind of put it all together. I think she's 26, I don't have her in front of me, I think she's 26 or 20, she might be little older. I think she might be 28, Jesus. But, and that's kind of my point, you talked about game styles and you talked about her proficiency on clay, she between...

Torrey (09:17.147)

Sure. Arena, arena's how old? 26, 27? Right? Right?

Torrey (09:27.867)

27.

Alvin Owusu (09:33.185)

Madrid, Rome, and rolling arrows, she went, what, that's five, five, 17 and two in about four weeks there on clay. She was signaling by finaling back to back Madrid and Rome, which are very different surfaces of clay, very different atmospheres. We're talking about a difference in elevation here. Things are different in those two clay quaternaments. The only similarity is the level of players.

the surface kind of, it's clay. Yeah, they're both the same. But then for her to show up and final back to back 1000s there, like, then come into Roland Garros, it's like she was signaling, I'm ready to do this. And then, and then got it done. You know, that final match against Arena was one for the ages for a lot of different reasons. But yeah, I think 17 and two won clay over the course of four weeks is a, that does it. That says you're pretty good at this.

But I think I think we talk game styles though, like I think her success on clay and remember she final friendship before and lost to Ega I think her success on clay is a function of Her game style like that is where she's most comfortable Yeah, I mean every every player everyone would wish they had no weaknesses, right? If we could all have everything everything screaming at a at a eight or nine, right? Exactly. So if you it's about I think it's about what you can do with your like in spite of your

Torrey (10:47.361)

and solid in her movement. Yeah.

Torrey (10:52.993)

No, for sure, for sure. Which is a myth, right? Which is a myth.

Alvin Owusu (11:02.477)

and how well you can defend those and she does a really good job with that on clay. The results then bear out. Wins Grand Slam, finishes third in the world. One of the higher earners on tour, she's an icon off the court, like check, check, check. She could do this year, she could have this year two out of every three years, so the next six years, and I think that's a Hall of Fame career.

Torrey (11:03.234)

I agree.

Torrey (11:21.561)

And she's already, yeah, she's going to status herself. I don't disagree. I'm just saying, of any of the players that I look at that could improve substantially, she's won. And I know we're going to give other players their time, but when I look at a player that could still get better, I don't mean better condition, getting their legs under them, get healthy, which is a lot.

Alvin Owusu (11:35.081)

Mmm. That's fair.

Torrey (11:52.289)

I'm talking about a player that could substantially improve parts of their game that would indirectly not just affect their results, but also affect bad matchups, affect them on different services better, affect them going deeper into some runs. And quite frankly, Alvin, having the ability to win more than one way, right? My issue with a lot of the better movers, they tend to have a very short shelf life because you're always dependent on your moving.

Alvin Owusu (11:56.237)

Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (12:12.301)

Mmm.

Torrey (12:19.617)

I mean, you go back to any player that was a speedster around the court from the olden days of Tracy Austin, who was just floating around the court, hitting moon balls and just being an absolute menace to some of the better older, seasoned players to, I'm trying to think of a good 90s version, Arantxa Sanchez Vacario, right, it comes to mind. I players that just played incredible.

but they based a lot of it off of their wheels. You you come into an era at some point you'd like for Coco to win off of something other than her movement. And so all I'm getting at is not only will it lengthen her career, not only will it help her win a few more in a calendar year, I also feel like she's unlike the others, her gain, you said her body is just not getting physical maturity. I don't think her gain is 100 % mature yet either. And that's my only point. How much better could she get?

I think quite a bit. And the tour's improving. Let's make sure we don't forget that point. No one's staying static here. Everything is getting a little bit better. And so for her improvement to continue amidst that dynamic of everyone getting better, I think she has the most to improve with. Serving 400 are pretty big parts of your game, Alvin. That's not like, if she can get her backhand drop shot volley a little better, no, no, no. We're talking about make sure pieces that you get every shot, every point.

Alvin Owusu (13:37.238)

Yeah, yeah.

Torrey (13:43.948)

you know, give or take. that's why I said, again, I don't want to continue to wax poetic on Coco. I'm a big fan, of course, always have been, have been a big critic of some of those weaknesses not getting addressed up until this point in time, but have always known what I've seen. I know the family well I've known her since she was a little girl. She has continued to impress and amaze me and I saw it coming. So trust me, I'm a huge fan. I just really look forward to seeing her take those pieces on, get that behind her and really start to get

her full game and package established. And I would love to watch the complete Cocoa Golf play without a things to defend. So without a win to defend, so to speak, and a serve to win in spite of.

Alvin Owusu (14:26.764)

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (14:31.885)

Sure, that's fair. Alright, let's keep moving here. Not unless a little bit, Amanda Anasamova. Without winning at Grand Slam this year, you could say she's maybe the comeback player of the year, or so maybe the people's player of the year, whatever it might be, but coming back from what she's been through to showing glimpses earlier this year. What did she win, Qatar?

Torrey (14:45.26)

Thank you.

Torrey (14:48.952)

Yeah, sure.

Alvin Owusu (15:00.429)

in back in February of last year, last year, yes, it's January 26th now, so February of last year, that turned a lot of heads and people went, huh, Amanda Anastamova, like she's back at that point age 20. She's playing again, right? And this is like, know, she kind of the way she started the year, she's like, okay, I'm back, I'm gonna be a full-time tennis player this year, loses to Anaconda in the second round of the Australian Open and then the very next tournament wins 1000. So like.

Torrey (15:12.6)

She's playing again, right? Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (15:28.781)

It was a and then kind of went into a bit of a dry spell after that but then started to get it together Probably French rolling garros is when I think the is when she not necessarily caught fire, but it started to look like Herself right got a couple good wins there lost to arena in a very It was one of those matches where I'm gonna call it respectable But like she was right there and it just looked like she was just not quite matched sharp enough yet to get over the hump

Torrey (15:57.09)

For- for Arena. Right.

Alvin Owusu (15:58.509)

For Arena, like in a match like that, like we're second week here, round of 16. Arena was ready. Amanda was just a little bit not ready, but made Arena work for it. And that's like one of the signals that you like to see. And then obviously her summer was pretty well defined with the Wimbledon run, the US Open run. She's even went to China and won the 1000 there. and then obviously had a fantastic year in finals.

Torrey (16:08.856)

Right. Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (16:28.396)

losing again to Arena and the semis there, beating EGAA as well in route. It's interesting, at age 24, and I'm gonna come back to another player a little bit later, that reminds me that I feel very strongly about players with pedigree. Because pedigree tells me something. And we see, especially with our US players, who we get to, even I get to see a lot, both from juniors, some of them might touch college before going pro, but.

There's something, I think there's something special about knowing how to win at a high level against your cohort from an early age on. Like if you show me someone who wins in 14s and they can also win in 18s, like win junior US hard courts and then do well at Orange Bowl as well. Like those are things that I'm like, okay, this person might be able to figure out. If you win girls 18s, like Clays.

But like, you lose in the second or third round of Orange Bowl, I'm kinda like, eh, whatever, I've seen this story before, right? There's lots of players like that every single year. But when you are a 15 year old winning 18s hard courts, or you are a 16 year old and you're getting, you know, semi-finals at Orange Bowl, it's like, okay, now this is something I pay attention to. Amanda Anasamo, when you go back about seven years, was that, she was that girl at that time. And, you know.

a lot of signaling early on when she first went on to the Pro Tour. Obviously, tragically, lost her father, took some time away from the tour, comes back, we need to kind of retread that story. And now you feel like you're getting the same version of Edmund and Samova that we had in juniors and also started to show earlier in her career. Like, it's not just the way she plays tennis. It's the way that she carries herself, which makes me feel like she expects

to be here. When she looks at these other women, these egos and these arenas and kokos and what not, she's like, no, no, no, expect to not only be competitive, I expect to beat them. I expect to be where I am right now.

Torrey (18:25.036)

for sure.

Torrey (18:34.816)

right? She's, she's cut from the same cloth. I agree with you 100%. And I agree with you and all those players are being on down, he got all the way down. They are, they're just, they're, they're the, they're the top of the food chain, Alvin. And so to your point, I completely agree. I think I would give her the comeback player of the decade just because of the time that has spanned as we knew she was there. And she did it in such fashion this year.

Alvin Owusu (18:40.107)

Right.

Alvin Owusu (18:57.558)

Sure.

Torrey (19:03.625)

to be honest, Alan, pretty quickly. You when you cut your teeth on a grand slam, right, that's getting a few matches in and kinda getting comfortable. When you then, you know, win a 1000, that's getting confidence. That's really feeling like, man, I'm playing well right now. Not like I'm back, but like, you know, of course I'm back, but.

I'm starting to take notice for all the rest of the players outside of, let's just say the top 10, top 15, because not everybody plays that 1,000 all the time. Then to do it at the Grand Slam level and to get to the finals. Now you're knocking on the door of top five, right? She had a stubborn toe off, seeing that that Wimbledon final and played some phenomenal tennis until then, right? That semi was incredible. I mean, which is probably the best match of her life up until that point in time, right? And of course,

Alvin Owusu (19:53.723)

Mm-hmm.

Torrey (19:58.037)

a little flat, a little, you called it, a little, maybe a little bit starstruck for the moment, right? I don't think any of us saw O &O coming, but I think she saw, I think a lot of us said, it's gonna be a big thing for her. And I was probably a little more like, nah, she'll just match up well against Ega. And while I was correct, a slam later, I wasn't correct at that time. And obviously it was a tough one to get through. I loved how she responded.

Alvin Owusu (20:17.804)

Right, yeah.

Torrey (20:27.22)

Alvin, you lose 0-0 in any match on the Pro Tour. You feel naked out there. You feel like, whoa, I just got my butt kicked. There's nothing to talk about. She did it in a final on an international stage with 100 cameras, you know what mean? And every country in the world saw that bubble. But now here's the point. And amidst tears, and amidst embarrassment, and amidst a little bit of hurt, she gathered herself enough to not only appreciate what she had done to get there,

appreciate and have the understanding. I've been through worse than this in my life. This is just a bad match. That told me her mental toughness was there. She put it in perspective already. She gave Iga her props for the butt-whippin' and then she promised herself in the crowd, I will be back. I will be better than this. And a tournament later, Alvin, we saw it.

Alvin Owusu (21:03.372)

Right.

Torrey (21:24.709)

So I'm telling you, I learned as much about her through that adversity as I learned about her wins and her ascent back to the top. And so Alvin, I was very, very impressed. And so that told me that her mental fortitude is there. so she's gonna be bad loss, good win, doesn't matter. She's taking it all in stride. She's taking it as it comes. This is tennis. And while I'm good at it, I really enjoy it, wanna be competitive. I'm not putting this out of, it's not gonna get.

bigger than me and I'm grounded with my team, with my family. I know who I am and you know what? I'm just gonna come out here and compete and that's all I'm gonna do and for her to get healthy and her to continue to move on, this next year could be another good year for her to the point where I don't think that was a flash in the pan year at all. I see her being back and being ready to do the same thing next year.

Alvin Owusu (22:15.422)

Yeah, I agree. like one of the things that you like to see with a player is the ability to like, obviously you want to, you want to see a player who learn within a match, right? But then you want to see players who can learn with between matches, right? Between matches, between tournaments. Like you want to see players making the adjustments, whether it's them or their coaching team, the whole, the whole deal. And one of the interesting things about Amanda is like, because she, she was away from the tour for a while, a while being like, if that's, if that's a year and a half and or two years of women's tennis, like

The faces are all different, When she played Eega at Wimbledon, she had not played Eega on the Pro Tour ever. Like, when you think about that and then come down to the end of the year, they played three times, right? And that's like, happens fast when you get into that, when you're starting to get into the back end of these tournaments, quarterfinals and beyond at Grand Slams, where we never really know who's gonna win them.

Torrey (22:47.026)

All right.

Alvin Owusu (23:09.664)

but we do get a lot of the same characters in the last eight of these events. And I think that's one of the most attractive things about the women's game right now is there's enough intrigue, but you still have a lot of familiar faces. And back to my point about her learning, she loses to Arena at French Open, beats her next slam. And the very next round loses to Iga, beats her at the next slam. And then...

Beats Ega again in Riyadh. So she beat all of the Grand Slam champions this year at some point in the last half of the year. She beats Madison in Riyadh, she beat Ega in Riyadh, she beat Arena in Wimbledon obviously, and she also beat Coco in China. So, and beat her pretty handily too. it's, she's there, like obviously she's there, it's a matter of...

And I think we're turning that way because her team looks really solid. Like, can she just, one, physically hold up throughout the entire season? Right? She didn't really, she schedules pretty smartly. She doesn't overplay. I would like to see a little bit of norming out of results, which I think will come. So last year she didn't, like outside of those two, the two Masters 1000s that she won, she didn't get past the round of 16.

Torrey (24:13.884)

Sure. Yep.

Torrey (24:25.806)

that

Alvin Owusu (24:36.02)

in any other ones. So it's like that's the kind of like we want to see her consistently do a little better. And I think

Torrey (24:42.194)

But that's also a low hanging fruit to Alvin for next year, right? I mean, let's say she doesn't get the two finals on the last two, right? That's points to pick up. There's norming out of the year. Clearly, I don't see her going out early in the Australian. You know what mean? She's going to be one of the players to be going in. So I say it to say, if you told me she had four straight finals to defend this next year, it'd be tough to say she's only going to get better.

Alvin Owusu (24:45.312)

True, yeah, yeah.

Torrey (25:08.987)

you know, numerically because that's pretty solid right there. She didn't do well at the other two, you know what I mean? And let's face it, didn't play a great final of Wimpy. So I say that to say she's own, she will get better this year, numerically and physically and her tennis will, we'll back up those other terms. That part I'm not worried about at all. I'm sure you're not either. I'm just really excited to see, tennis is excited to see her back and to see her healthy. And she has been a very, very pleasant, you know,

I'm going to say surprise slash return because I feel she's all those of us who know know and knew how good she was before I spoke to her about before when we first started this podcast about a year ago and some change about she was one of the players I was most excited to see and I referenced her back and I referenced her back. just remember her and I was like man a girl like her and then when she when she kind of piqued the interest but by winning guitar I'm like you know what

Alvin Owusu (25:58.155)

Yeah, you called it. You called it.

Torrey (26:09.018)

Don't sleep on her. Don't sleep on my girl, the man. because I just knew how good she was. So it was only gonna be mad of her getting better. so she's far exceed what I thought she could have done this year, this quickly. And she's very, very quickly got back to form and kind of put her stamp on the year. So very excited for her next year. She's a great, just a good fresh face and beautiful game. mean, just make.

You know, the problem with all these great players, they make it look so darn easy. They make hitting the ball look so easy, like, that's all you gotta do. Just do this and just do like this. And you're like, yeah, it's not that easy. I don't care how easy you make it look, it is not that easy. So.

Alvin Owusu (26:40.207)

Hahaha

Alvin Owusu (26:45.398)

Just do it like this.

Alvin Owusu (26:56.94)

You know another player like just kind of bounce away from US women but Amanda some of this year this year was very similar to Jasmine Paulini's year last year right in 2024 you pop to slam finals and then your top five in the world and it's like okay How do you bounce back from that? But you can you can do it Jasmine Jasmine finished the year I think ranked eight and or maybe somewhere around there and

Torrey (27:07.695)

last year. Sure.

Torrey (27:11.931)

No.

Alvin Owusu (27:24.716)

didn't make another Grand Slam final, but she did win a 1000 and she showed the level. If you finish four one year and eight the next year and you're kind of in that space, you're showing that this is my level. think the difference between the two, I'm gonna echo what you said here, is that we believe Amanda's level, her highest level, her ceiling is higher than Jasmine's. So yeah, maybe she doesn't make two Slam finals, but what if she wins one? Damn, she could win one, but she probably should win one.

Torrey (27:28.87)

Yeah. Sure.

Torrey (27:44.081)

for sure.

Torrey (27:50.609)

Yep.

Alvin Owusu (27:53.005)

Yeah, I'll leave it at that. Let's move along. Good ol' JPEG. Good ol' JPEG. JPEG finishes the year ranked 6. that's... You know, considering she semi-finaled with US Open, great result. First round, Wimbledon lost. Not so great. Round of 16 at Roland-Garros and round of 32 at Australian Open. That's a pros year. Like, eh, I didn't do so great.

Torrey (28:05.392)

Yep.

Alvin Owusu (28:22.4)

You know, a first round loss on a slam is not what you want as a top 10 player, But it happens. You counterbalance that with a semi-final run. That is good. Yeah, maybe she would like to get one more round against Edwin Lingeras. I think she might have lost to Boisson at RG. I think that was her. That might have been her loss there. Okay, you take maybe... Yeah, exactly. Right, right. So I mean, but you take that one out and that's a pretty good year.

Torrey (28:27.289)

ever. Yep.

Torrey (28:42.276)

Yup. Yup. Who's on fire?

Alvin Owusu (28:52.268)

That's a pretty good year and that's what we come to expect with Jessica. The highs are never that high.

Torrey (28:56.984)

Right. Didn't JPEG get to the... Right, I'm so sorry. Go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (29:02.956)

No, no, I think you were gonna ask if you should make the finals of US Open the year before. Is that what you gonna ask? Yes, yeah. Yeah, the 20-24 US Open final,

Torrey (29:05.592)

the US year before, What was the time of US Open? 03? 23?

4, sorry, 2024, sorry, got my, these years, January always throws me off. Right, the, the, the consensus was for me at least at that point in time, this was a career tournament in the making, right? I don't know if I, and I'm sure I'm not alone, I don't know if JPEG's ever the clear cut favorite to win a Grand Slam, especially with the current group of players. So for her to get to the final,

Alvin Owusu (29:15.82)

We're barely in 26.

Torrey (29:41.399)

It's some very heavy lifting, right? I was extremely proud of her because she's always been that little engine that could, that, you know, don't think I can get there, I'll show you. You know, and that's always been something that she's very quietly wore on her sleeve. And so to me, I'm to the point now I'm like, keep doubting her. You know what I mean? Keep doubting her, right? And she will continue to show you, because that's the fuel that fires her up. Not a great year coming off of a final

and quite frankly, pretty close to a banner year for her. And I feel like her team is that it's in place right now. It could really help her to level out this next year coming in. And I think Jessica, who's always been on her own terms, could have another good year this year. Looking back at our, you know, our whole thing now is a review. If this was her quote unquote regular or normal year,

And she still had some pretty good results. Couple of, couple of, you know, a couple of stubs of the toe and some of those tournaments. would tell you Alvin that those kinds of years will fire up a Jessica Bagula who knows she can do better. And she's only, she's all about being a competitor. And so to me, I teetering a little bit in the next year, I see this year.

actually fueling her to get better for next year. And like I said earlier about Amanda, there's two or three tournaments in there that she could have done a lot better. And so I actually like that for her, not only numerically and points wise, but I also like it from the standpoint of what would that do for her confidence going into two, three, know, months of tournaments going in. Again, she's one those players that's still pushing to get to the top. And if she can have the confidence behind.

doing so. But JPEG is very relevant and very committed and very good. And so coming off of a normal, if you would, year, not a banner year, I think this year is actually gonna help her next year more so than anything else because she's getting close to another year or two, she might be calling it a day, right? So this, to me, that even speaks more to her urgency.

Torrey (32:02.414)

of next year's play and this year will have a lot to do with that.

Alvin Owusu (32:06.764)

So let's change the word from urgency to some other word that I can't really come up with right now because at age 31, right? She's 31. I'll give you that one stat right there. Boom, 31. Just...

Torrey (32:12.162)

Fair fair fair

Torrey (32:18.466)

Yep. Yep. And you still don't want to use the word urgency.

Alvin Owusu (32:26.539)

No, it's not urgency. I mean, I'm probably, as I lay this out, I'm probably going to end up getting to the word. So let's just see where we go. The Jessica Magula we know now, right? The top 10 player. So like she entered the top 20 in 2021, right? And that would have been at age 26, 27, something like that. So, okay. So in 2022, she finished year ranked three. 2023, she finished year ranked five.

24, seven, 25, six. So she's been three through seven for the last four years. Four years, right? Right, she's right. This is, in my opinion, this is her level. She does not necessarily, she has not shown, I'm gonna say she has not shown the ability to win a slam, but you can't win a slam unless you make the final, she's made the final, so she's done that. She's gotten to the semis, she's done that.

Torrey (32:57.794)

Yep.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (33:25.26)

Do I think she can win one? I mean sure if she's gonna show up to the semi-finals then yeah, then maybe she can win one. But the great thing is she's done it at the same tournament which makes me feel like it's a US Open, makes me feel like she gets a little bit of that US push. In the last slam of the year, I am a little more concerned that we've seen the best of Jessica Pagula and that the drop is coming.

Torrey (33:50.951)

Mm. Mm. Okay.

Alvin Owusu (33:54.253)

It might not be, I don't think it's gonna drop off to like, we're never gonna suggest Mugula actively playing tennis and being ranked outside of the top 50 because she's gonna retire before that happens. I feel like, I feel like we drop out of the top 10 this year. I think this is the year.

Torrey (34:04.183)

for sure.

Torrey (34:12.423)

I want to push back on one comment. Jessica Pagula is too good a competitor and a tennis player to be outside the top 50. That's number one. Number two.

Alvin Owusu (34:23.116)

That's what I'm saying. her ranking might show outside top 50, but that's not because her levels dropped. It's because she's not playing anymore. Yeah.

Torrey (34:28.654)

She would have just, she would have been hurt for nine months. I want to push back on that. That's number one. You know, wear my JPEG flag all early and often. Number two, Jessica has never needed to play tennis. So we understand that part, free and clear, right? And the fact that she's still out there, numerous surgeries, everything else is always been about because I can and because I am that much of a competitor. So.

Alvin Owusu (34:37.398)

Yeah you do.

Alvin Owusu (34:47.628)

to it.

Torrey (34:57.707)

You gotta put those two into your mindset of, why am I even still playing? Because I believe I can still be competitive. And I think that's where I'm going with this. My comment back to you, Alvin, I feel while it's numerically possible, always, and unfortunately, 31, she's an injury swim too, and unfortunately, that's always a possibility. The older you get, the more likely it's gonna happen. Not if, but when. I feel she could return.

to a slam final this next year. And I also would tell you, the reason I use the word urgency is I believe Jessica also believes she can, but doesn't know how much longer she'll be able to cheat mother time in the rest of her pursuit. And me knowing her, if I can't get to the final of a slam again, like I did back in 24, you know, and I'm gonna be a perennial semi-finals and I kind of know deep down, okay, that's about as good as I can get.

I will probably push back because at that point I'm not getting any better. And it's not about money for her. It's about am I getting better? Am I improving? On a side note, I see no one better to be the voice of the women's tour president, so to speak, other than Jessica Pagula, by the way. And so I hope she takes on a very vocal role, a very visible role with the WTA tour at whatever point in time when she is done.

Alvin Owusu (36:18.198)

Sure.

Torrey (36:25.58)

because I think she speaks to a lot of things, let alone at the least of which is her professional tennis career. And I feel like there will be a lot of open doors for her post-hints. So I feel this is a year where she feels she will want to do something simply because of this, because there's a lot of opportunities for Jessica post this. And I'm saying urgency because I think she will bail before that ever happens. She said as much.

Alvin Owusu (36:40.245)

Yeah!

Torrey (36:54.412)

She's not gonna be out there like Serena. She mentioned in an article playing until she's 37, 38. And mind you, Serena did it because she still could. She still felt like she could be relevant. don't think Jessica thinks she has those level of genes and that level of physical dominance to continue even a step slow. Serena, a step slow was still two or three in the world at 36 and still winning slams at 35. There was no question the woman could, she would.

Alvin Owusu (37:03.617)

Well, yeah.

Torrey (37:23.647)

So it helped you understand how big, how good she was at 25. You know what I mean? I don't think Jessica is blessed with those same genes.

Alvin Owusu (37:29.004)

But that's the difference though. I agree with you. I think we're saying the same things. I'm just saying because we've already seen her high end level, we've already seen her peak. The difference is Serena could win slams. Jessica has never won a slam. I mean, I...

Torrey (37:38.869)

Sure.

And you might be correct.

Torrey (37:47.238)

Hahaha

Torrey (37:51.585)

The bar here?

The bar here is returning to a final. Yeah, that's all.

Alvin Owusu (37:55.565)

I'm just gonna say the... Yeah, but I'm just gonna go ahead and the final was the outlier. the semi-final was an outlier. She semi-finaled the US Open this year. She finaled the US Open the year prior. Let's remember, she had never made it past the quarterfinals before that, right? And outside of those two, she also hasn't done it since then. Like, you take the other six slams in the last two years, right? She had got past around 16.

Torrey (38:07.435)

You

Alvin Owusu (38:22.628)

What I'm saying is, no shade against, I'm here for the consistency of Jessica Bula. I agree with you with everything you said about what she, like her position in this game, in this sport, and what she will do after. I mean, she can do whatever she wants to do after. I think it would be great if she stayed in tennis to remain a voice in the sport because she has so many other options. It would be better, really, if were us, we would all benefit from it. But what I'm saying is...

If you take out those two slams and not that you can't take out the two slams, when we talk about the consistency that is Jessip Gulas, she's actually been less consistent the last two years. The year in ranking that she has achieved and making it to Riyadh has been propped up by the fact that she's done well at the US Open the last two years and done poorly at the rest of the slams by her own standards that she set, right? Missed the Roland Garrison 24. She has two second round losses, one first round loss. That's four of the six slams we're talking about here.

If you just look at the numbers, I'm saying, I mean, we're not, we're not trending towards anything. We're looking, we're looking like the best of my, okay, I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop because JPEG, JPEG does not bring us together. She divides us.

Torrey (39:30.475)

Yeah. I hear you.

Alvin Owusu (39:38.108)

She is divisive, but I will say one player that does bring us together, I think, is Madison Keys. I want that.

Torrey (39:38.155)

Duh.

Torrey (39:43.701)

Madison Keith and that's fair enough. And I wanna say one last comment on my girl JPEG. I always see the cup half full. I don't care if my cohort sees it half empty. JPEG, JPEG all day. I got my JP on the chest, so wear it strong and wear it proud. Madison, I feel mad. God. I know, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (39:48.684)

UGH!

Alvin Owusu (39:52.566)

Fair.

Alvin Owusu (40:04.78)

Look, look, look, I think Jessica would respect me for judging her purely as a tennis player. You could take the name away and I just look at the results and I go, this is what I think. This is what I think. Okay.

Torrey (40:19.582)

Yeah. And that's why we're, that's why the banter is good. To me, it's always about the player on the inside and the one that we see outside. And that's why it's a good juxtaposition between the two of us. Madison, God.

Torrey (40:38.234)

I hate selling any champion short. I hate thinking that a player should call it a day before they have decided to call it a day. I have to stop myself with that every time we get going in these Novak Djokovic conversations. So I'm not going to, I'm going to try my best not to do that with Madison.

Madison is a phenomenal tennis player, has been for a long time, loved her career win, I'm gonna say, with Australia last year. How she comes out this next year will be a very solid harbinger, and I say it with that connotation, that for the rest of her year, and quite frankly, for the rest of her career, however long she chooses to continue to play. I feel like there hasn't been a player

of her height, her power, and her racket speed in a long, time. The only thing that worries me besides age, mother time, and so on, I've told you, you know, I've talked about this for years, even when I was on the other side of the net for me with the basket, it's foot speed and ball speed. At a certain point, I actually think Madison's ball speed has improved almost to the detriment in some ways. She's hitting a bigger serve.

Alvin Owusu (41:55.222)

Mm-hmm.

Torrey (42:04.689)

she's hitting a bigger forehand now than she was when she made the final against Sloan. What was that? Back in 17, right? So that's now eight years ago. The foot speed simply as good as it has improved is going to just be slower just because of age. Now you add to that any other level of health, any other level of, you know, physical limitations and whatnot.

She was never the swiftest even at that point in time back into 17 I think she would pro it like back in 2014 or 20 whatever but when she was young so it's been on tour for know shoot 12 13 years 14 years Ball speed and foot speed is just an equation you have to get around It's like the Pythagorean theorem you just can't get away from it It is what it is and if you're going to the ball that big you have to be able to return the ball that big and there are Amazon

Alvin Owusu (42:37.225)

huh.

Torrey (43:01.092)

Amazonians, you know what mean, like her height and size that are there now that are doing that at this level. we already, we've talked about all of them from Marina to Rebecca, to Amanda, to there are a lot of tall players that can bring it and return it with interest. And so I say that to say we're in a tough spot right now for Madison. I think she had a phenomenal year. So glad, so happy for her. She, she, I like

reflecting on her laurels more than I like looking forward to her to this next year because I'm just not so sure that the ball speed and foot speed equation can be, can be, there's not another way to look at it. And the rest of her 2025 bears that out. So let's say you.

Alvin Owusu (43:53.965)

Okay, we know, I think anyone listening to this podcast who has listened to this podcast over the last year or so knows where I sit when it comes to one Madison Keys, all right? I'm gonna try to be partial here. And the same way I judge Jessap Gula just by her tennis results, I'm going to judge Madison Keys by her tennis results. Agree 110 % of what you said about ball speed and foot speed.

Right? She has never been the most swift player, but I think because she can hit the, she can break glass in case of emergency from five feet behind the baseline and make up for that foot speed. That's, that's her, that's her special gift. Right? So we can't like, like we said with Coco, no one's perfect. Right? No one's perfect. This year in particular, Madison had a really good three weeks. Wins Auckland, wins Australia Open.

Fantastic. That is, can't take that away from her. That was, that will go down as one of the, that Australia Open quarterfinal, semi-final, final run will go down as one of the best like four, five day spans in my life as a tennis fan. I rode that roller coaster like nobody's business and I enjoyed it thoroughly. Madison Keys, thank you for that memory as a sports fan. Here's a term that doesn't necessarily, that usually get associated with Madison Keys. I'm gonna say Madison Keys.

Torrey (45:07.622)

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (45:21.428)

is extremely consistent. I'm gonna say she's consistent. Why would I say she's consistent? Okay, this year she finishes seven, right? That's fantastic. In the last 10 years, because Madison's been on tour forever, in the last 10 years, only two times has Madison not finished top 20 in the year. 2021 where she barely played anything, she finished 56th in the year, right? Okay.

Torrey (45:23.419)

Mmm. Mmm. Okay.

Torrey (45:44.465)

Well, that's all of it. Right.

Alvin Owusu (45:50.829)

2024 she finished 21. She has been between 21 and seven for 10 years. She ain't winning a Grand Slam every single one of those years. She's not finally a Grand Slam every one of those. She's won one Grand Slam. She has finaled one Grand Slam in those 10 years. A couple of semis here and there, a couple of quarterfinals, sprang in and there.

Torrey (45:54.289)

Right. Yep.

Torrey (46:03.237)

Yeah, that's big. That's big.

Torrey (46:14.748)

Right.

Alvin Owusu (46:20.876)

Every once in a while she shows you her high end. And sometimes she'll flake out in the first round. But what she will do is bring a level over the course of 12 months that will be good enough for her to be a top 20 tennis player. And that is exactly what she did this year. We got a little pop at the Australian Open and quarterfinal at the World Games as well. Great year. Could she not win at Grand Slam next year? Absolutely. Will she finally, will she probably go round 16 at another two? Probably.

Torrey (46:23.377)

right.

Alvin Owusu (46:50.74)

and we'll be right back at Madison Keys territory because I think she has two things that like someone like a Cocoa Golf cannot rely on is serve forehand. That'll write you checks for a while, right? so when it, right, exactly. And so when it comes to Madison, it's like, she's gonna do, I think Madison can perform at a top 20 level as long as Madison wants to play tennis, which I think, you know, she just got married. She's had her banner years.

Torrey (46:59.591)

Yep. Forehand. Yep. 100%. Best at her level of serving forehand.

Alvin Owusu (47:20.648)

she got the grand slam. Like everything else is kind of like, is gravy. And if she finds herself getting injured, like she was injured in the back half of last year, if we, think us showing up in this year, we're very telling for what we get from Madison for the next 18 months. If she hasn't fully recovered or if that spark isn't there, like she's had her first off season as a married woman at home doing that thing, like.

Torrey (47:28.743)

Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (47:47.553)

going back on the road, if it's like, this doesn't feel the same, or this doesn't drive me as much as it used to, you can start seeing, hey, you know what, I can do some other things in my life. Madison is engaging, she's knowledgeable, like, because she easily transitioned into a television career if that's something she wants. Absolutely. I'm just gonna enjoy the time, probably the next two years or so, that we've got left. Exactly, but do I think she's gonna be a top five player? I don't expect.

Torrey (48:09.447)

Right, the time we have. Right.

Alvin Owusu (48:17.278)

anything north of five or anything south of 20 to be honest with you. Like this is, I feel really good about put her at a 15 and if she pops a semi of a grand slam, there's your top 10. Like that's, that's where I, that's where I sit with one Madison Keys.

Torrey (48:30.245)

I think it's well said and it's a good perspective to take on her when you look at her as that versus a comparing her to from the top 10 down. Looking at it from top 20 up, I think it's a great perspective and just a matter of where you put the lens. I completely agree. I stand by what I said as well as far as the tactics of it. with most points finishing within

Alvin Owusu (48:54.913)

Yup.

Torrey (48:58.085)

four shots. know, she's got two of the best ones. She's got two of the best to start two of the four with. So, you know what mean? If every poker hand started with a joker and a king buddy, you'd be all right. You know what I mean? Now you just need a little bit of help. You know what I mean? the deck. So.

Alvin Owusu (49:01.132)

You

Alvin Owusu (49:13.004)

But a big. Exactly. All right. So let's transition a bit here. So we've got it gone kind of deep. think we've fully exhausted the top of the mountain. half the top of mountain is US women. So it is what it is. We're blessed. The rest of them, the rest of them, between Emma Navarro at

Torrey (49:19.747)

Yeah.

Torrey (49:29.167)

Pretty good. Pretty good.

Torrey (49:35.301)

The rest of the rest.

Alvin Owusu (49:42.348)

between M and R at 15 and I'm gonna go ahead and cut us off at Haley Baptiste at 61. All right, and maybe we'll throw Peyton in there at 63.

There is a... When we look at this group of women, you and I were talking about this before we started recording, right? We're... It feels like we're debating whether or not someone in this group can effectively... I'm gonna sum this up here... Effectively replace the pagulas and the keys when these two ladies decide to call it a day at some point.

Torrey (50:14.745)

Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (50:19.03)

Right? Because now we're just talking about it. It's numbers, right? And that person's not going to be Sophia Kennan, right? Sophia Kennan, great year for her. She's ranked inside the top 30. She'll be seated up there straight up. And she's 27 years old. And she, her best days, she was somehow winning Grand Slams. And yeah, that was awesome. That was great. But we don't, don't think anyone believes that no one wagered that she's going to do it again. The game has changed. That was cool. But.

Torrey (50:19.269)

sure.

Alvin Owusu (50:47.794)

There are some other players here where I get a little worried, I'm going to say worried, about where's our next, not necessarily our next Coco Golf, but where is our next Jessett Bogula, right? Yeah, who is that player that's going to come in and be our, like just move into that space and be our professionals of the group. We can start with Emma because

Torrey (50:59.781)

Sure, Matt, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (51:13.1)

Emma finished 2024 ranked eight, I believe it was, and now it's 15 in 2025. Where's the, where do we level out with her?

Torrey (51:21.541)

It's a great question. I think she'd like to know the same answer while Mary still tune in and find this out.

I'm going to give you two. Right, right, right, right. There are two ways of looking at this. Number one, for me, 15 is the new top 10. When you load the top four with four different Grand Slam champs, it pushes the numbers down. A would be semis and the finalists will now become a quarter and a semi.

Alvin Owusu (51:32.3)

Don't revoke my Charleston press pass, please.

Alvin Owusu (51:48.278)

Hmm.

Torrey (52:01.986)

Right? Because those, if that same player had it, typically you have a huge disparity between one and two, two slightly above three and four or five trickle on down from there. In this situation, you've got that point spread around across the top four. In some cases, there was even some different, and Amanda's guess it was two of the same semis, but, Arena didn't even make all the finals this year and she was the one playing the world. So you got to appreciate how that

affects the points themselves. So I would even dare say the top five, those points were spread amongst five players, which pushes effectively. It's like you have five number ones is what I'm really trying to say. So that pushes the numbers themselves down. That's my first point I like to make. You can check me on the numbers. think in concept, though, I think you might agree with me. Number two, I think she is the most professional out of all of them, probably taking a page more so out of a

JPEG's book as far far as being that professional, she's heading down that road. She's been consistent her whole career, juniors, her time at UVA, as well as obviously her time on the tour. I feel she's had an unfortunate situation where this updraft, if you will, of top players has happened on her watch and her game. I liken her game somewhere between Paulini and Ega, right? Her game just hasn't matched up as well.

to some of the bigger Amazonians that are out there playing that are currently having their day. So I feel like she is that next player. I think she's there now. I think she has to retool a few things. I think she has to get some things a little bit and kind of go back in and kind of get some upgrades. But she is going to be there. And I think she's that player you're talking about should that happen. And I think when it happens, I think she'll do it. I think she's too competitive. She's too professional not to.

And she will want that more than anything else because she is a competitor and a champion at all levels up until this point in time. Nothing to me will signal anything otherwise. It's just a matter of when she does it. And obviously, unfortunately, at 9.15, as you know, Alvin, the numerically becomes an issue now with how soon you face one of those former Grand Slam champs from last year. So that's, that will be the tricky part for her, but.

Torrey (54:22.623)

She's always been that kind of player that on a bad day, she could beat anybody on a bad day. And so if those players aren't playing off the charts, I don't like their chances against a sharp Emma Navarro, even if they were a former slam champ from this past year. I feel like she, well, I don't see her getting inside the top five. I certainly don't see her getting outside the top 20. And to your point earlier about Madison, if she could pop a semi, there's your top 10.

back to match her eight from a year or two ago.

Alvin Owusu (54:57.26)

Yeah, okay, if I'm getting this right, then do you feel like her true level, when you actually look at her game, right, her true level is probably not top eight, like year in finals, but better than 15. Is that, so you're saying she's probably somewhere in between those two?

Torrey (55:09.858)

100%. 100%.

100%.

Torrey (55:18.978)

100%.

Alvin Owusu (55:21.664)

Huh. I'm just not quite, I'm not quite ready to call it. I mean, obviously call it, right? She's 24 years old, so we're not calling anything here, but what I don't believe is the eight. I think she caught a lot of people by surprise and this is what you can do when you are mentally tough, you move well, right? She makes a lot of balls, which she was able to do in her first full year on tour in 2024. I think we talked about this middle of last year, this year, like her.

Torrey (55:22.7)

That's what I'm saying.

Torrey (55:27.884)

Yeah. Right.

Torrey (55:40.332)

Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (55:51.117)

Her second year on tour, the book is out on her. People understand what they need to do, how to beat her. But still finishes the year top 20. I always feel this way this time of year. I'm gonna turn my TV on in a couple weeks here and Australian Open's gonna be starting. I guess when you guys hear this, it'll be a couple days. And I will have a very quick understanding of who Emanuele Varro is now.

Torrey (55:54.37)

Yep. Yep.

Torrey (56:19.5)

Right. Yep. Yep. Agreed.

Alvin Owusu (56:21.12)

has she added what she needs to add in order to actually push closer to that top 10 and show that she's a top 10 player. She's had some time off in the last, she wasn't in the year in finals, so she's had a nice chunk of time off, which in, yeah, six weeks in tennis years is like an eternity. You can be a different player in six weeks. So I'm excited to see where she goes. I look at her kind of like,

Torrey (56:34.028)

Yeah, that's great. Sure.

Torrey (56:41.122)

I'm gonna say, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (56:47.244)

Her and Dina Schneider are kind of like similar. Like first year on tour, like plays in college tennis. Now first year on tour, bam, surprises a lot of people, pops top 10. And then second year, it's like, whoa, what the heck's going on here? Steadying the ship a little bit. And this is, think a big year for Emma and us as US tennis. Like, what do we got? Like, what do we got?

Torrey (56:58.848)

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Torrey (57:06.082)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I feel, I felt eight was a bit high for what her game style was, right? We're talking about a player that needs to grind, needs to match up, needs a rally or two. She's not the type that's good. She's not a Madison, right? She's not six feet tall and has a 128 mile an hour serve and a 95, 96 mile an hour forehand. So at that point in time, you're a different player, right? So I think it's to, when you have that kind of a record and you are not

Alvin Owusu (57:12.246)

Okay.

Torrey (57:35.298)

bringing those kinds of weapons, I think it's important to understand, then that's, it's a very similar situation. I'll use a weird analogy, because you know I'm a Chiefs fan. My Kansas City Chiefs won 10 games or so the year before when we got to Super Bowl Alvin by one score. We had 10, it might have been more than that. The Chiefs fans out there will probably remind me. 10 games, less than one score.

Guess how many games we lost this season by one score. Ten games. So I say it to say one year we got to be losing this one in the finals of Super Bowl and one year we don't even make it to Super Bowl. So I say it to say that's just the difference of the tail of the tape when you're at that razor's edge in your game style. And that's my analogy for Emma is she's gonna come out on the other side of that same close match.

Alvin Owusu (58:06.444)

Tingames, yeah.

Torrey (58:28.737)

you know, as she was on that previous place to only, I say only, to only go as low as 15. Still bodes pretty well for a player who had an injury or two and wasn't a hundred percent playing the best of her game, who was coming off some those points to defend. So I actually look forward to her having a decent year. I say decent in some going some, deep in a few slam draws. She's always that type of player that's going to make up some room in the 1000s and terms elsewhere.

She's pretty mobile so she goes, she can play well on all surfaces. I don't feel like, I don't, I certainly don't feel like she is a threat to win a slam. Certainly with this current group especially, but I also don't see her being a fodder, you know, for, you know, for the top eight seeds either. Clearly the top four can go through her, but she still has a chance to beat them on their bad day. And that chance only exponentially gets better.

as the players don't have the same level of weapons. So that's why I feel like she is that JPEG-ish type litmus test for the Pro Tour. And while she's more Eega slash Paulini in style, I feel like she's right there and will certainly be a threat to be reckoned with on anybody's day. I feel there's a lot of players like her that have that level of, hey, if everything goes according to plan, I'm right there with about.

90 % of the players I'll face and I like that. I like those odds.

Alvin Owusu (59:55.821)

Yeah, and she's shown her ability, you know, she's been on tour three years, right? And in the last two years, she's made quarterfinals look better in three of the eight Grand Slams, right? So she's shown the ability to get there. And at different Grand Slams, mind you, right? She courted all showing up in this year. Year prior, she courted Wimbledon in semifinal of the US Open. So I think when you start looking at like her ability to get there, meaning like you show me you can put it together over two weeks and start to push.

Torrey (01:00:11.136)

Different slams, right? Yep. Yep. Right.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:25.214)

into the last eight. You know, we swap a Roland Garros this year, I think she lost in the first round, right? So we swapped that first round loss with just a second or third round even better. She's right back in the top 10. So like, we're not far off here. Like, we're not far off considering she didn't really do that well at the other Grand Slams this year. She was still right there. And then she kind of shows you between the slams, it can be a match or two that really moves that ranking, you five, seven spots, but.

Torrey (01:00:36.244)

Right, No, no.

Torrey (01:00:44.01)

Yep. Yep.

Torrey (01:00:53.12)

That's right.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:54.28)

in the tournaments in between, she's still performing at a professional's level. And I think that's, that's a, that is a good sign. So we, we, we reshuffled the deck and we, hopefully come up with, you one more face card this year and we're, probably okay. Okay. So, but the rest of them, I call it the rest.

Torrey (01:01:08.948)

Before you, as you segue, as you segue. Right, here's my gauntlet that I'm throwing down for the remaining players we discussed. Emma got to top 10 within about a year to 18 months post college. Some of the other players that are on, that are a little further on our debt chart have not gotten top 20 inside of the same timeframe. Some of them,

that might be a career high if they ever do it. And so I just want a little perspective to understand how hard what she's done is. And do I see the rest of them getting to top 20 this year? Which would be their second, third, give or take year, right? I'm just, she did it top 10 level and is kinda as sifted or settled at 15.

which I think is a very respectable number, especially considering the, as I said, the top. But I'm worried, the more we talk about this, the more I'm worried about some of the ones, and you'll mention it. I just wanted to mention that as a segue into the rest because they have not reached that high of a level in their year or two.

on tour to date.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:32.852)

Yeah, let's do this. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and we'll dig into that one.

Part 2

Alvin Owusu (00:00.992)

Okay, we're back. so, Tori, I think you left us with a really, really good point, and I think it helps to kind of tell the story of how we look at professional tennis players. Like, we can, let's say the obvious part first. If you are someone we see play tennis on television, you are one of the best in the world. In the world. Amazing tennis player. Check, right? If you are playing at Grand Slams, if you are winning a round at a Grand Slam,

You were at a level of tennis player that 99.99 % of us aspire to be. So on our best dreams. So there are levels to this. So as we move away from the expectations that we set for the Kukul Golfs and I made it into some of those Pagulas.

Torrey (00:39.0)

on our best day.

Torrey (00:43.155)

Right.

Alvin Owusu (00:57.262)

All the down to the Baskies, right? Like winning Grand Slams and competing for Grand Slams We're talking about the last four players in a Grand Slam. I don't know how many billion people are on the world. It's the rest of them and these four, right? It's stratospheres different, but within this world of top 100 tennis players, right? Everyone's trying to make a living. are chasing glory, some are chasing the record books.

others are trying to maximize the amount of time that they have in their career in the space in which they will make the majority of their money in their professional career. Like if you were a tennis player between 50 and 70 in the world, there's a pretty good chance that the money you make while playing tennis is going to be the most money you're going to make. Like this is your profession and you have a very small window to do it. Okay? So that's the job. That is the job of it. Right? So when we start talking about these players from

Torrey (01:48.275)

Sure. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (01:54.51)

McCartney-Kessler all the way down to Payton starts, right? Where the conversation we're having is, okay, we know how good you are to have gotten to this conversation. There are players we will not talk about, right? Because they are not in this conversation. But with these players in this 30 to kind of 60 space, I think the question that we're both asking is, do we have our next set of top 10 players, US players in this group?

Torrey (02:02.482)

Yeah. Right. Thank you.

Alvin Owusu (02:25.142)

And the part that I'm worried about, it's kind of the same thing I said, we talked about in the men's US review, is that it don't look like it.

It'll look like it. And I'll let you go on with your point that you made before the break about Emma Navarro, first two years, she got there. And we've talked about this with other players previously. Like if you're gonna win a Grand Slam, it's probably a chance that you're gonna do it before like, kind of in history, like before the age 21, So like, if you're good, if you're that good, you're gonna show it early. You're gonna show something early. You might not stick there, but you will show something early within your first.

Torrey (02:57.819)

Right. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (03:06.19)

24 months on tour, that make us go, hm, all right. Like, Amanda, Amanda Anderson-Mova today, she showed it before she took her break, right? When she was younger, she showed it. Pagool is the outlier. Okay. Yeah.

Torrey (03:15.312)

100%. 100%.

I would say so and I would also say that I would also and I would add to that and I would say that while she's the outlier she did continue to make incremental improvements all the way through. Jessica did not go from 250 to 10 right Jessica was always pretty good just not Grand Slam final good and I say that to say even her ascent

to top 50, to top 20, to top 30, was always there. There was a young Coco Gough that was kind of her, she was a big sister to and played some doubles with early on when Coco was first getting started. So she was the top 10, if you would, player at that time, or certainly just outside the top 10 at that point, trying to sniff to get inside the top five, right? And as she's continued to incrementally move her needle in the last three or four years. So, but she was there is what I'm getting at. And I think,

Alvin Owusu (03:57.25)

Right, right.

Torrey (04:15.267)

I don't see, besides Emma, don't see a lot of, there's not another Jessica Bagula coming up behind her that I see. And I wish there were another. I wanna say this, Alvin, and I think this is something that all tennis fans need to kinda appreciate. We talked about this before. I talk about the Nike contract. I was privy to get some things, some understanding, and days gone by when players were.

having these deals. And so I was telling you, know, if a player has this five year million dollar contract deal, it typically looks like a, you know, five different, you know, $200,000 deals based on with a lot of bonuses and things laced in. But it's reportedly worth a million dollars, but for lack of a better term, let's just call it even money. Let's say a 5 million, five year deal, a million dollar per year, you hit these benchmarks, right?

Alvin Owusu (04:58.541)

Mm-hmm.

Torrey (05:11.781)

The first benchmark is almost always 2-2-50 in the first year, right? The second one is almost always top hundred. The next one's top 50. The next one's top 20. The next one's top 10. And if you have high enough perks, obviously there's bonuses to get to number one. Most players don't reach past the year three benchmark. They just don't make that next cut in said time. If they do, that's great. Almost none.

make the year four benchmark and so on and so on. And obviously top 10 is there are those that do and they're the ones we talk about. They're the ones who sell a lot of rackets, t-shirts and clothing line and makeup and whatever else they're a spokesperson for in the commercial world. Taking that level and I don't know specifically how long Peyton, McCartney and others who are there, how high they've

how long, but I gotta think it's within about two plus years, maybe a bit more than that. But that worries me in the sense that...

Emma got to her top 10 status in about 18 months. And I'm looking at now as she's leveling out down, as you said, down to 15, give or take, she still had a pretty high ceiling to come down from. Some of these players have yet to reach that top 20 mark. And I'm worried that if, you know, while these can, they have a lot upside still to go, it just makes me question our

Is the upside high enough? And you can do this across the men's or the women's tour. It doesn't matter. The answer is still the same. How quickly do they ascend to the top? And at what point do they level out? If I'm getting top five and I level out to top eight, great. That's about where I'm at. If I get to top 10, I level out at 15, 18. Okay. If I level out to 25, if I get to 25 and I level out at 30, there's not a chance of me getting to 10.

Torrey (07:20.653)

Right? With all foreseeable things being the same. And I think that's the issue that I'm now and the challenge that I'm issuing to our next set of American players coming up. There really needs to be a game development bent on making that mark. Not necessarily getting a little bit better, but getting substantially better at a couple of parts of the game, whatever they may be. And this goes for the Paytons, the McCartneys.

on the women's side, all the way over to the Alex Mickelsons, the Marcus Drones, and so on so on on the men's side, which I don't wanna blend the topics here, but it's the same concept. If you're going to be relevant, you need to make some significant adjustments, I like that word better than changes, adjustments to what you're doing now, because your clock is ticking out, let's be honest, because at some point, if you're...

If you do what you've always done, you're going to get what you've always got.

Alvin Owusu (08:18.222)

Yeah, and I think that's well said, one. Two, I wanna make sure that I'm not jumping to conclusions here, right? As much as I say that Jessica Bagula is a bit of an outlier, she's an outlier only in terms of when she started to make the jump, right? So Jessica now at age 31 is a top 10 player. She's been a top 10 player since she was 28 years old, right? And I'm gonna...

Torrey (08:27.054)

Yeah, for sure.

Alvin Owusu (08:47.566)

not to bore you with the numbers, but I'm gonna go through them a little bit here, right? So when she was 24, she was ranked 125 in the world, right? That's when you look at Payton Stern, Payton Stern is ranked 63 in the world at age 24, right? So like you would say that, okay, if Jessica ended up at three, you know, seven years later, then maybe Payton can do it too. But there are some jumps that do need to happen. So JPEG went from 125 to 76.

to 62, so 62 at age 26 feels like leveling out and then boom, she makes the jump from 62 to 18 in 2021 at the age of 27 and then has steadily gone from 18 and then three, five, seven, six, right? So it just happened later, but making that big jump has to happen. I think all the laters that we're talking about have made that big jump. McCartney Kessler being one of them, like McCartney...

She's 26 years old, right? So if you put her kind of where JPEG was like 26, she's 31 in the world. Two years ago, she was 230 in the world. So she went from 230 to 68 to 31. Okay, now the question is.

Has the way the women's game changed over the last few years mean that McCartney Kessler of the next two years is actually in a perfect position, next four years is in a perfect position to make a run for the top 10? Like is this a top 10 player in waiting and I just don't see it? the question is like, what is the new norm? Is the norm still the Kuko Goffs who pop early and stay there like we talked about? Or is the Chesa Capagula route

Torrey (10:03.554)

Right.

Torrey (10:26.465)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (10:30.156)

actually more likely.

Torrey (10:31.298)

The norm. I would certainly say, right, split the difference, you know, obviously. I love Peyton and McCartney both, by the way, for level of play. Couldn't have a bigger serve. You couldn't have a bigger serve before in the Peyton. And McCartney is, to me, about a savvy and a strong competitor as we've put out. Again, both top college players coming out.

Age isn't the bigger issue to me in terms of more so than time on tour. We talked about this before, right? It's all about time on tour. It's been two years, right? I think my only concern, and I mentioned this and I stand by this, even with the other players, Jessica included, are you making significant adjustments to the game to continue to go forward? Because to me, it isn't the number.

Alvin Owusu (11:05.496)

Time on tour, yeah.

Torrey (11:26.733)

It's the upside that we see within the numbers. I'm looking more at the player, I'm looking more at the game, the matchups. Do I see that player improving? Do I see that player getting better? Even if you have a tough loss, hey, you might come up against Irina in a second round. Well, that's gonna be a tough draw. You're not gonna beat Irina first time out playing her in a slam, but she's too good at that level. She's been there too many times. She has too many ways to beat you. You have too many ways to lose. However,

Alvin Owusu (11:43.852)

Yep.

Torrey (11:55.533)

through the course of that year, right? Do I see you sneaking through a semi or a final of a 1000? Do I see you winning a 500? And that's where I'm saying what I like to see, what these players have that ability to just incrementally get better. Do I see you taking a set off of Arena or Amanda or Ega? That's more what I'm looking for, Alvin, not even necessarily on the numbers. It just so happens that the numbers speak to themselves a year later. And if you were to tell me a year from now that Peyton would be

Alvin Owusu (12:11.755)

Right?

Torrey (12:24.407)

Top 20, 18, give or take, right, in the world. Do I see that happening? I do see that happening. I think she's that good of a player to make that happen. I would like to see that sooner than later is all. Because I think the longer it may take, it tells her that it's not as possible, or I should say not as likely. It's always possible, just not as likely. And I think that's where she's at. This will be her third year on tour.

I'm not looking for her to win a slam. I'm not looking for her to beat a top, a number one player. I'm looking for her to compete with a top player. And I'm looking for her to have to both hold that serve, shore up that, know, do a little less running around and smack it four hands and to take away some time and add another dimension to her game that would really suit and really be a difference maker against some of these other matchups with girls that can take the...

take her pace, return her serve. Because at that level, it's all, they all got good returns. They all can have a decent serve. And those that don't have great serves have phenomenal returns. And so that becomes their new weapon. I think I wanna make sure I, while I'm throwing down the gauntlet, the gauntlet's a challenge. It's not a death knell. It is just that it's a challenge for Peyton, obviously, and then for McCartney to even Hale and Baptiste.

to get to that next level of their game, that next wrinkle that lets them be competitive with that 20 through 50 player that is really good and to make that happen. So I do want to add in one player. Don't let me forget before we, as you know, you want to bring up McCartney.

Alvin Owusu (14:07.464)

Yeah, yeah, so it's... I mean, I don't want to kind of put them all in the same bundle because there are some nuances between your McCarty Kesslers and your Ashton Kruger and your Peyton Stearns, right? And one of them being like, I'm going to keep harping on age because age and time on tour are sometimes correlated. We have a lot of these ex-college players, right? Like Ashton Kruger, for instance, has been on tour for three years.

Torrey (14:36.245)

Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (14:36.75)

She's 21 years old. So there is lot of, no college experience, there's a lot of growth that is still happening from a maturity standpoint. But when you look at not just the ranking of top 50 player in the age of 21, just finished her third year on tour, she's also six foot tall with a howitzer four serve. Huge forehand, actually moves pretty well for her size.

Torrey (14:43.574)

Sure. Sure. Sure.

Torrey (15:02.783)

Yeah, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (15:03.786)

At this point, we've got a good lump of clay here. And it's just like, we're still sculpting it, right? And so while still sculpting, we're not even in the oven yet. At that point in the process to be putting up enough results to get ourselves into the top 50, right? I think something like that, a player like that projects to, okay, I think she can probably get to top 20. Actually, I'm fairly certain she

Torrey (15:10.315)

For sure.

Torrey (15:14.379)

Right.

Torrey (15:31.051)

No, if not higher, right? If not higher. She reminds me of Jim Brady, you know what I mean? With her servant, Forehand Prowess. And again, being young enough. Again, I was speaking more to our college, our two, three, four year college players that came out of it. I'm with McCartney and Peyton.

Alvin Owusu (15:33.258)

to top 20. Right. She,

Alvin Owusu (15:48.782)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so like, but then you look at Peyton, right? So Peyton, 24 years old, right outside the, like right around 60 in the world. But she's kind of been there since she got on tour. That's the, and that's the problem. Like when you see someone like Ashlyn, who has been, who was not on the, who did not go to college, right? She came out 81, 65, 45, but we're jumping 20 spots every year. That's.

Like you see half it every year, half it every year means you're drawing towards the top 10 pretty quickly, but jumping 20 spots every year, okay, I'll take that, right? Kind of in that same timeline, that same space of time, but someone who played in college, Payton Stearns, 50, 53 her first year out and then 48 and now 63. Like we're kind of like, whoa, that's actually a little worrisome because...

Torrey (16:40.194)

Trending trending the wrong way, you know

Alvin Owusu (16:41.902)

we're just kind of sitting here. You're effectively showing me that you're the same player now that you were two years ago when you first came on tour. That is, someone who's a Peyton Stearns fan, that is a little worrisome. So it's like, okay, well, what is Peyton going to do this year to not necessarily define the rest of her career, but really just kind of show them what kind of player am I going to be? And that's the difference between like, when we talked about JPEG and her path, like even though she started a little bit later making those moves.

Torrey (16:53.259)

Sure. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (17:11.886)

she started making them, right? Like 125, 76, 62, 18, top 10. Like that's, that is progress. I don't care when you do it. I don't care if it's age 18 to 22. I don't care if it's age 26 to 30. Like that's getting, that's getting, well the getting's good, right? Getting it done, getting it done. So that's kind of the, and then McCartney, like again, started a little bit later, but two years ago she was 230 in the world, 68, 31. Okay, now we're in that, now we're in that.

Torrey (17:24.714)

Getting it done. Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (17:41.868)

that JPEG space, right? JPEG at age 26 with 62 in the world, McCartney's 31. Okay, show me. I give you time. You, to this point, I can't fault you for when you start, but when you do start and you start showing me things, okay, let's see what you got. So I'll give McCartney, if I'm swapping players here, I'll give McCartney my, I'll give her the JPEG hat maybe, like go wear that hat.

Torrey (18:04.819)

Sure, there.

Alvin Owusu (18:06.85)

I'll give Ashton Krueger maybe the Madison Keys hat, they have a similar game style. Once she gets there, could she get to top 20 this year and then be there for the next 10 years? When you have those tools, sure. Sure, why not? The ones that jump out at me for a good reason and a bad reason, Peyton, I'm like six months away from being a little worried. We get through French Open and another.

Torrey (18:09.351)

Right? Yup, yup.

Alvin Owusu (18:35.758)

Australian and bridge open and she wins one or zero matches in those slams and I'm like, okay Well, then this it is what it is fine

Torrey (18:39.303)

Yeah.

Right, right, 2026 will show you that one. You remember Jim Brady though, I mentioned her earlier. You remember Jim Brady, right? Oh, great time. And she was also that player, again, tall player, big forehand, serve. And I remember it took her a little bit to kind of get going, but she shot up very quickly toward the end, I say toward the end of when she was playing. But she...

Alvin Owusu (18:47.374)

Oh sure, yeah, that was a fun time.

Alvin Owusu (19:05.048)

She got hurt in a regret, yay.

Torrey (19:09.041)

I bring her up for one reason because Peyton to me is very similar. With, have weapons, will jump, right? With weapons, we can still take a meteoric rise if things, if the sun, the moon, and stars start to align just right. And that's why I wanted to make the comparison is that I don't even think Jen Brady played one for UCLA when she first went out. First she came off, was in college, think. Sampras in her wisdom said,

Alvin Owusu (19:17.198)

you

Torrey (19:38.086)

Let's get you playing a little lower and get some wins and really develop your game. If you don't wanna change your game, which is fine, let's put you where you can win and then gradually let you improve. And I think toward the end, she was playing lights out. course, know, the final will be open, I wanna say, when we're back in.

Alvin Owusu (19:54.414)

She had a really good six months. like end of 2020, she semi-finaled the US Open and then came back, Australia to open the very like 2021 and finaled it and lost to Osaka. Yeah.

Torrey (19:57.384)

I'm

That's what a sim is.

Torrey (20:05.065)

That's what it was. thought, and I was right during or right near end of COVID or right when COVID was starting, whatever that situation was. I said to say, I remember her at that point in time where she was just starting to blitzkrieg people. I was like, wow. And it was so fun to watch. And I say that to say, because we were talking again as a coach, I love that because it just shows you the game development and how it takes those harder hitting, bigger players, taller players, more aggressive players.

Alvin Owusu (20:11.434)

And yeah, about yeah.

Alvin Owusu (20:20.389)

yeah, yeah.

Torrey (20:33.648)

It takes them a little longer, right? They gotta learn how to use those weapons and how to reign them in. And that's what I'm thinking. I'm gonna give that hat, if you will, to the Peyton Stearns type of player, her in particular, because I feel like there's still the ability for her to get that going. And you don't know how much momentum and confidence is being lost by not winning, but you don't appreciate how without changing much, you just have the win.

and the confidence that comes from it, and you could have a little bit of meteoric rise. And I think that's the one, the flip side of the Emma Navarro type situation is with weapon, will rise, you can still add that level to your game and it won't take much, but you landing some of those bigger shots. And if your game style is much different, you're gonna have to, you really are gonna have to spread out your results throughout the course of a year because you're not going to be going through players.

at will per se.

Alvin Owusu (21:34.562)

Yeah, and it's interesting not to get off course with Jen Brady though, but like it's like what did it cost her? It's like everything. Because she like, she was, mean, outside of that, like she lost first and second round at every Grand Slam for two years leading up to that semi-final round at the US Open. Say for, I think 2017 she had a break in year, round of 16 twice at US Open and Australian Open. you know.

Torrey (21:41.295)

Right, right, right.

Alvin Owusu (22:00.974)

when she put it all together for those six months, semifinal US Open, final Australian Open, and then round of 32 at French Open, she ain't played a slam since. Like, US Open a couple years back, but it just got hurt. Like it really, just, that's such high, I mean, the two game styles are like, could not be more synonymous. Like heavy spin, South there swinging like Rafa, like just, it...

Torrey (22:05.466)

It was beautiful.

Alvin Owusu (22:29.144)

takes a toll on the body, on anyone's body. And that's probably the reason we don't see a lot of the women playing in that same style. But yeah, shouts to Jen Brady. But yeah, that's kind of where I see, I think Jen and Peyton, that's a really, really good comp. So now's the time. One player I wanna make sure we don't, like one player who's the opposite end of Peyton Stearns, more of the Amanda Anasamova pedigree is Ivo Jovovich, right?

Torrey (22:30.843)

Goodbye.

Torrey (22:56.677)

Okay. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (23:00.526)

Eva Jovovich, 18 years old, currently ranked 35 in the world. And these are obviously numbers that you like to see. Young, already in the top 40, that's fantastic. But some other things about Eva that make you go, this is something to keep a... I feel the same way about her, like when we talked about the men, Ethan Quinn, when you go, huh, things are happening here. But even probably at a more extreme level.

Torrey (23:22.833)

Yep.

Alvin Owusu (23:27.406)

And that Eva won a 500 this year. She won a tournament on the pro tour when she started the year off playing Challengers effectively, right? She won girls USTA hard courts, 18s, two years ago. Got the wild card on the end to the US Open and won a round. Like that's, that's big. Junior Orange Bowl, like I think she finished, uh, like under 14 Orange Bowl, she won it. She won.

Torrey (23:41.723)

Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (23:57.262)

Junior Australian Open and Junior World and doubles. So when we start to talk about pedigree, this is a woman, girl, woman, woman who is showing up on the pro tour. I have a expectation of winning at a high international level and has come on the tour and already got a win at a 500. That's not a joke. So if we take that and you look at such a young age, you start going,

Mm-hmm. Okay. Give me another year like that. Right? I'd like to see you, like, if we're gonna start, let's start top 40. Cool, let's do that. Let's not start at 300 in the world. Let's just show up and get started getting to work. And if, like we said, if within your first two years you can show up and start getting to work, that gives me a lot of hope for, okay, maybe this is the one that points towards top 10. It's...

Torrey (24:37.488)

Yep. Yep.

Right. Yup.

Torrey (24:54.342)

Yeah, yeah. I just haven't seen enough of her yet, but I'm 100 % with you on the trending of it. you gotta always worry about, not worry about, be on the lookout for that sophomore slump. You know, a good player doesn't really have one. when I say, let me, me, quiet up a little bit. A great player rarely has a sophomore slump in the sense of, you know, gets into the top 20.

Alvin Owusu (24:56.718)

Still a little... Right.

Torrey (25:21.893)

and then drops back off and doesn't necessarily, you know, equal or best or better that previous result. But good players that have some time to time. I'm looking forward to this young lady. She's been, mean, course you're hearing all the buzz about her and she's playing very well right now. I like the fact that she, you know, much like a Yalva Unseka type, it's kind of coming under the radar. I like what she's done up to this point. I like to see her now.

Alvin Owusu (25:30.936)

Mm-hmm.

Torrey (25:52.516)

This is that point in the next year or so when you have to start having a decent result. And by that, mean a close match with some of the top 10 to prove that you can beat or be with that level. And so that's, this will be a great year for me to see that I'm going to reserve any common or judgment until I see more of that. She's young, she's, she's swinging free. She's got a lot of confidence right now. Of course she's going to do well to get some players who haven't seen her before and

Alba, you know this to be true. The best weapon a young player like her has is there's no book out on her yet, right? So no one even knows how she plays, how her ball, what her ball's like. There's no scouting report. She's brand new. you know, some of that, and that's not taking anything away from her. It's just to say some of that is just a blitzkrieg of, girl's good. It's a nice ball. And then that comes up to that you now.

Alvin Owusu (26:30.665)

Mm-hmm.

Torrey (26:50.821)

that metal is now clashed with some other, just a stronger metal, players that did that themselves back years ago. And now you start to see where that, where she kind of starts to level out at. So we'll see. And that's why I'm excited to see it. I don't want, I want to make sure that she has that level of exposure to me before I can really see the numbers right now or just what they are, the numbers. But I'd love to see her continue with the other players again, different track, know, much different track.

Alvin Owusu (27:20.194)

Yeah. I mean...

Torrey (27:20.619)

They play college and we'll see.

Alvin Owusu (27:23.95)

She spent the majority of the year playing both, like on the 125s and belows and then also playing some Masters on the senior tour, if you will. Yeah, this will be her first year of like, she will not be playing in one the 125s likely. She's probably gonna be 500s, Masters, thousands at that ranking level, but there are kind of a few things that I saw that, there are a few things that make me go, okay, this is why I'm actually interested, right?

Torrey (27:31.887)

sure great schedule great schedule for young player

Alvin Owusu (27:51.916)

She lost, she did take a set off Jason Paolini in Miami, right? That's a taking a set off of Thompson Flair, right? She beat Potipova this year. She beat Lidenovskava this year. Yeah. Did win a 500. That's the other thing. And then here's my last point. Here's my last point. Her parents, immigrants, one Serbian, one Croatian.

Torrey (27:55.182)

Okay?

Torrey (28:00.271)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (28:12.133)

Mmm.

Mmm. That means he's got the old school, the old country in there. So she's got different cloth.

Alvin Owusu (28:16.174)

Mmm. Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And not down the line, Mom and Dad. Mom and Dad. I think Dad's Serbia and Mom's Croatia. I might be flip-flopping that one, but from the old world. They're not about the soft life. So you once told me many, many years ago, America's the champion will not come from a three-car garage. My girl, her people have seen bullet casings. So I feel we'll be having...

We will come back to this this time next year and hopefully a few times in between. You said you have one player you wanted to make sure we discussed before we get out of here.

Torrey (28:50.744)

Yeah. Yup. Yup.

Torrey (28:57.796)

Taylor Townsend.

Alvin Owusu (29:00.254)

Okay. Okay.

Torrey (29:01.208)

We have to, Alvin, we have to mention it. She's topping the world in doubles and she had a good run at the open. Alvin, you gotta at least include her. You gotta at least include her. I know her rankings outside, but Alvin, I just had to give a shout out to my girl Taylor Townsend and John Williams, her coach. I just had to say it for what it is and it may be unlikely that she breaks inside the top 50.

Alvin Owusu (29:03.842)

Do we?

Alvin Owusu (29:08.14)

Okay. Yep. That's true.

Torrey (29:30.964)

in singles per se, but it's not out of realm of possibility. She showed the level. She is that in spades and dubs. And I feel like if it were to happen, it would be this next year coming off a great year that she's had thus far in tennis and in singles. And I just wanted to make sure we gave her her due because she got deeper in some of the rounds at a slam than some of the players we've talked to here before. So I just wanted to make sure.

We gave her at the very least an honorable mention and I for one would love to see her have another breakout tournament on the single side of things as well as her continued dominance on the double side of things.

Alvin Owusu (30:17.326)

So the yes and I think the reason why I'm less bullish on the prospects of Taylor Townsend as a singles player, not saying she doesn't have time, she's only 29, right? There's a difference between 29 and 31, 32, right? I just feel like she has never shown me the ability to get close to the top 50.

She's currently at like a buck 10, buck 15 in the world, right? That's a, and whatever that number is, is whatever, but the thing that she was forced to do last year is the thing that she'll be forced to do this year, which is just a lot of qualifying, a lot of qualifying, right? Now it's going to take her, if you're starting from round one of qualifying and you need to get to the round of 32 to be a top 50 player, that's a lot of matches just to get into the conversation, right? Now, Grady, you only got to it once.

Torrey (31:09.123)

Yeah. Good match. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (31:15.726)

Right? And she's done a good job of qualifying for events specifically of Grand Slam. Last year she was direct entry into the All-Strade Open, ranked around 85, right? But then, and this is the thing with Taylor, she can't win matches, like she can't win tour level, main draw matches outside of US soil. Like this is the issue. was, yeah, direct entry the All-Strade Open last year, right? Loses in the first round. Goes to Singapore, loses in the first round. Goes to Abu Dhabi, loses in the first round. Qatar, loses in the first round.

Qualifying, qualifying, qualifying, losing, losing, losing, losing. And then we get to Miami. First round, she qualifies into Miami, wins two matches, right? And then loses to the Junkin' Win, right? In round 32. That is, okay, that should have been the, okay, we're going now. We're going now. It was not. It was not. Didn't qualify for Roland Garros, right? Lost in the first round of another 125.

Torrey (31:59.062)

But that's, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:14.338)

losing the first round of Wimbledon after three qualifying matches. Like there's just too much. Okay, qualifies into DC, goes to the quarterfinals, loses to Lela. Fantastic. Wins two rounds first at Cincinnati, gets to the round of 32. Okay, this is the player that we're looking for, but again, and then makes that run to US Open. That's it. what this, DC Cincinnati US Open is, that should be the springboard for her, right? That should be the springboard. That's the thing, like, hey, you've gotten a couple of wild cards, you've qualified.

Torrey (32:37.538)

Run. Right, right.

Alvin Owusu (32:44.11)

and then you got a wild card and you made good. Round of 32, round of 32, then round of 16 of a slam. Cool. And then we go right back into qualifying because of the points she's hadn't stacked up yet and then didn't qualify for the next 250, right? And then hasn't played a tournament since. It's like, Taylor's just got to stack it all together. And that's easier said than done because that is what a professional's career is. It's stacking it together over the course of 10 to 11 months, which she just had.

Torrey (33:08.161)

Yep. Yep. Over course of 16 weeks. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (33:13.966)

Right, she just hasn't shown the ability to do that. And now here we are coming into the year outside of the top 100, guess what we gotta do in Australia? We gotta call it. And for someone who has not shown the ability to win a lot of matches off of US soil, we ain't come back to the States for a while. Sunshine Double is, we're still three months out from that. So how are we gonna do it? How are we gonna do it? How is this going to happen on Do Not Know?

Torrey (33:20.917)

Yeah, quality.

Torrey (33:36.885)

Right, right, dawn therefore, right. yeah.

Torrey (33:43.211)

Yeah, I'm with you.

Alvin Owusu (33:43.822)

Now, player, as a doubles player, ain't no better, right? It's her and Sunyaka, but it's almost unfair that they get to play together, right? But, that's just only, that's why I'm just a little, hey, the US Open was fun. It was fun. It was fun.

Torrey (33:58.227)

God, what a night. I just loved seeing her style, which is unconventional, and just the artistry that she brings on the tennis with that left hand. Anyway, I've said my point. I mentioned her. Enough said. I will also say point taken.

Alvin Owusu (34:23.438)

And I push, push, right? This is what I do, I push, but I'm gonna give her her props. Like taking advantage of the Los De Panko situation, second round of the US Open, she nailed it, right? I was in, I was in Ash when she took down Mary Andre with the very next round. Amazing. That match against Krijikova in the round of 16, one of the best matches of the year. That second set tiebreaker was, it was pure drama. Like we're talking about.

Torrey (34:34.41)

Yep.

Torrey (34:39.774)

Yeah. Yep.

Torrey (34:47.072)

Right. Was that close? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (34:52.674)

She was literally points away from being in the quarterfinals of a Grand Slam in singles. Missed the opportunity, but whatever. Babs has won two Grand Slams. Yeah, she had it, but Babs is like, no, I've got it because I know what I'm doing here. It's just a hard, it's just that if you don't capitalize on those opportunities, it's just tough sledding. You don't want to be starting from the qualities. Fair.

Torrey (35:01.118)

Hat. But hat. yeah. Yes.

Torrey (35:13.13)

Yeah. I had to mention her. As always, as always, you push back with a bevy of numbers. I want to come to your house and see all the depth charts you have on all the players. I feel it's like Jarvis and Stark, you're like, Jarvis, show me the last, you know, the last.

Alvin Owusu (35:28.181)

I'm just saying, I need to stop.

Alvin Owusu (35:33.766)

Hahahaha

Torrey (35:42.593)

20 matches of... Exactly.

Alvin Owusu (35:48.462)

It's pretty close. It's pretty close. you know, okay. Well, let's let's let's put a pen in it there. and I think the next time anyone sees us, it'll be a shiny dope in time and we'll be taking a look at that drawl. So, but until then, I'm Alvin, that's Tori, that's three, we're out.

Torrey (36:02.176)

Yeah.