US Tennis State of the Union: Who’s Carrying the Torch After Fritz, Tiafoe & Paul?

Alvin Owusu (02:53.458)
Okay, all right, let's start our conversation there. we like to do a, at the end of the year now, do a State of the Union of US tennis and take a kind of bigger, a bigger lens here and look at both men's and women's US players. It's a blend of looking back at their year but also them projecting forward what we expect to see, what are some of our concerns for next year. Again, big, big.

Big catch all, state of the union. We're gonna start with the men. Let's start with the men, because we usually start with the women, let's start with the men today. At the top, and the way we've kind of broken this down is like there are some players who are, they're doing what they've been doing and that's kind of our players at the top. my kind of my concern, my large level concern for men's tennis right now is what happens after this cohort of

Torrey (03:24.683)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (03:52.7)
Francis, Tommy Paul, Fritz start to matriculate out, right? Because they're all in the same cohort. They're all 27, 28 years old, right? We're getting, short of Tommy Paul being a little banged up this year and slipping back to 20 in the world, they're all kind of doing what they've been doing for the last year or so, and that's Francis included, right? Francis started the year at right around 30. He finished the year right around 30.

Torrey (04:00.096)
Boom.

Alvin Owusu (04:22.183)
So that group has been holding up, you know, American tennis. Obviously Ben's come into the fold in the last two years, which has been great. But then the big worry for me is who else, right? Who else? But let's kind of go back a little bit. Let's start from the top. Start from the top. Taylor Fritz. We've talked a lot about Taylor in the last few episodes. And over the course of this year, I got nothing new.

Torrey (04:41.494)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (04:50.523)
to say about Taylor Fritz except for this. In this very episode last year, we talked about the limiting factor of his Ascension being, he's he's bumping into a ceiling, right? And I feel that his ceiling is very much so tied to his athletic ability is, that's the thing that he cannot really raise. that, literally, literally, yeah.

Torrey (05:16.417)
Can't run from it. Pun intended. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (05:20.295)
And that reflects himself on the tennis court in a couple different ways, right? His ability to go side to side and being aggressive in those open stance positions, his ability to quickly with his feet address any sliver and opportunity of a ball sitting inside the, that allows him to step onto or in front of the baseline. It is what it is though, but Taylor is a maximizer. He's sixth in the world, finished year six in the world. That's what he'll take into the all-sharing open. It's all good, except for, we can't,

He can't afford any slips, right? And now at the age of 28, I don't see him getting faster, right? I don't see him becoming a better mover. The only thing he's got in front of him is he's got, the three people between him and the big two are all kind of, I'm gonna say question marks. Novak is in front of him, but you know, we don't know what Novak's gonna do or how much longer.

You've got Zverev in front of him who is kind of right now being propped up by that U.S. Open, I mean that Australian Open final from last year. So we shall see. And then Felix, which we feel better about Felix, but do we feel like Felix is actually a true top five player in the world right now? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. We will find out over the course of probably the next six months, right? But with that being said, like where does that leave Taylor? And I feel like six is a...

Torrey (06:38.054)
We'll find out this year. Sure. Sure.

Alvin Owusu (06:47.419)
Five, six, seven, eight, it's a weird space to be right now. Because that means you're getting one of these guys in the quarters, not the semis.

Torrey (06:50.667)
Yeah.

Torrey (06:55.805)
It's a matter of quarters or semis though, Alvin, let's be honest. You said two things there and I want to, and I know you agree with me on this. I don't think Taylor thought he'd be six in the world, you know, 10 years ago. You know, I think it was a thought if I could ever make top 10 and now he's a top 10 and he's settling into being a very top, a very solid top 10 player. Taylor is not a phenomenal athlete. It's ironic that his coach is Michael Russell for a long time and

Mikey was all over the court, probably one of the best white boy athletes I've seen on the court, period, to date. I still remember him being up two sets to love against Querdin in French. mean, so, couldn't have more heart, couldn't have more hustle, could not have more speed and quick twitch. The Taylor has already maximized. The question to me is can he maintain?

not necessarily to improve is to maintain in the Pro Tour, let's be honest. So if he were to get to five, maybe four with a phenomenal Wimby and breakthrough and beat one of these guys and get to a final, buddy, first of all, it's been a solid career already and hats off to the young man for everything he's done. I think he's got one good tournament left in him. I think that's Wimbledon. I think that's this year. I really do. I don't think he's the type of player with his body and everything else to stay out there in the five years.

I don't see him hanging around when, he gets outside of the top 20, I see him making a push to get to that next round. We're talking about one more round or one more big tournament outside of Wembee to get him over the hump, to potentially do a career best, to put him where he thinks he'd need to be top five in the world, which would be awesome. He'd love of course to win one who wouldn't. But I think it's more about improving to maintain. If he were to finish this year, next year, 2026, six in the world.

That would take a Herculean effort to maintain. And I think he could do it. I really do. I think he's just that sure-footed, ironically, on the grass. And I think that he has, he's nobody's slouch on the hard court. Clearly he may not be as sure-footed on the clay. But he's been fairly durable too, Alvin. And I feel that's another good thing about Taylor that you don't always factor in. His game is fairly, I'm say predictable in a bad way.

Alvin Owusu (09:08.849)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey (09:15.69)
He is what he is and he is what he's not. He's not injury prone. He's not such a physical wrecking ball out there that he takes a lot of injuries either, right? He comes from the Pete Samper School of Thumb. nice shot. I'm not going to that ball down. I'll serve another ace real quick and save my legs for the long haul. I know what this thing is. This is seven matches here. I'm not going to go for that out wide slapper. Why? You know what I mean? I can serve. And so I feel like he's got a smart game plan.

that can manage those, the physicality of the game to his, that suits his game as well. Again, do I see him improving, improving numerically? Not too much. Do I think he will always be everything again, assuming everything is the same way and no injuries and everything else. Yeah. He could maintain six easy, easy with effort and potentially five or four, but I don't see him outside of eight. I'll tell you that. I don't see him. He's, he's just too good. He's just too good.

And so, know, to say the ceiling, I 100 % agree with you. It's a pretty good ceiling, though, especially given the top two, you know, in any other in any other time frame, you know, without some of these goats we currently have in the game right now, he'd he'd already be a top four player with the final, potentially a slam to his belt. Let's be honest.

Alvin Owusu (10:33.317)
Yeah, and that's the thing, I he last year finished the year four, I believe, so, and he's, what is he, I mean, he has finaled at Grand Slam, right? He finaled US Open a couple years ago, lost the center. He's been close at Wimbledon the time of two, he semi-finaled, he semi-finaled that one year, maybe two semis to his name there. So like, he's been a, yeah, right, yeah, yeah.

Torrey (10:53.737)
And should have beaten the doll. Let's be honest and should have beaten the doll, you know, and again, it took a former 20 plus Grand Slam champion to pull that match out. So I say it to say and what was he 2322 then?

Alvin Owusu (11:04.421)
Yeah, and he, he also semi-finaled against semi-final Wimbledon this year, lost to Carlos, right? So like, he's the fourth best grass-corp player in the world, I would say. Yeah, I feel good about that, three or four. And then you look at the players, like I said, between him and the big two, you've got some question marks. And so whenever you have question marks, know who's not a question mark? Taylor's not a question mark. So like, if Novak,

Torrey (11:11.88)
To my point, the guy is solid. He's absolute solid.

Torrey (11:20.712)
I'm with that. Yeah.

Torrey (11:31.293)
Correct. Correct.

Alvin Owusu (11:33.287)
if Novak makes that inevitable slip, and four straight semifinals and Grand Slams turns into two semis and two quarters, Taylor Harry Fritz will take that hill, thank you, I'll take that spot. And Felix, we'll see if that's real. And then Sasha, I don't know where Sasha is right now. Yeah, exactly, so for the first time in his career, actually, I mean, he's been a perennial three, almost three, four in the world for the last five years.

Torrey (11:52.136)
I should know.

Alvin Owusu (12:02.126)
I think Taylor is in a, for where he is in his career and looking at 2026, he didn't have a terrible year. had a bad, bad French open early loss to Daniel Altmeier, but, then, you know, a weird one against Monfils at Australia, but then really tightened up his year, semi-final Wimbledon, you know, quarter finals, quarter finals against, Jokovic at the U S open. Yeah. That's like, he's going to lose the Novak. He's going to lose to.

Carlos, he's gonna lose the center likely in these grand slams. Okay, cool. Then three, four is attainable. It's attainable and I feel good about him being there. Let's move on down the list a little bit. Maybe Tommy Paul. Tommy Paul, I'm gonna go ahead and give him incomplete, right? He's been hurt since Paris. I expect to see him back at full strength. We've seen his high end, right? He was able to, he finaled Australian Open 2023. He...

He's been known to push the top players but not necessarily beat them in best of five set matches. They call him the US or the poor man's Alcaraz. Yay.

Torrey (13:01.979)
Yep. Yep.

is

I would call them the American Demon or is what I would call them. And I love Tom Eddard, Thomas, since he was, since he was 10 years old. I just would say, but to both of them, both their credit, their phenomenal competitors and to both of their, if there's ever a ding, maybe just not quite enough to, knock off some of the top. If there's anybody else, these players rarely lose to players they shouldn't lose to, but they also, you know, they can threaten.

Alvin Owusu (13:13.094)
That's always funny. That one's always funny.

Torrey (13:37.64)
but they just don't tend to beat or best the top top on the world. And unfortunately we have two top tops right now. So it's gonna make it difficult for him to get past that. I would say it would be difficult for him to repeat that personally. And that's just coming something I don't know if he'll, I personally think he will reach another final of a grand slam where I could see Taylor doing it at Wembee in particular. I don't know if I see even a healthy Tommy Paul doing that. But again,

Health, a healthy Tommy could a healthy Tommy Paul, you know, get close to top 10 numerically be tough, but he could certainly, could certainly have the quality of wins that could put him in that category. If not numerically, I could see him being a 15 through 20 player with, with two or three quarters. You know what I mean? And a, and a few other thousands with some nice results and cleaning up at the 500. So it's certainly something that he could do. And if there's a player that could catch anybody slipping.

outside of top two. It would be Tommy Paul. So you got again, a healthy Tommy is a threat. He's a guy in the draw that keeps you up at night. You're like, aha, fucking Tommy Paul. I mean, you know, if you're not playing great, he'll take to the woodshed. So that's what I like about him. You know, I'm looking on Horizon. I wish we had a few more Tommy Pauls, you know what I mean? And that's to me, that's a concerning thing is, you know, which I want to kind of set the stage. All the guys we're talking about from Taylor, Ben,

Alvin Owusu (14:56.9)
Yeah.

Torrey (15:05.265)
Tommy, even Francis, we just don't, in my opinion, have enough of those guys on the horizon yet. And that's no disrespect to anybody yet. Maybe they're just still getting there, those guys a while to get there. But to me, I'm looking at the underside of it. I've known Tommy for a long time. He's from North Carolina. He was in our section. He and Jay Chintham, shout out to my boy Jay, played doubles back in the 12s. I I've known Tommy and his sister since they were young kids.

Alvin Owusu (15:27.396)
Yeah,

Torrey (15:33.959)
to see him all he's been able to achieve has just been nothing short of phenomenal. So very happy for him and all these in his team what they've been able to do. know Hugo Armando is his coach. I know many people on that set Brad Stein. There's just so much good, got such a good team. And again, is, Tommy will be fine. You know what I mean? He'll be fine either way. Just hope he's healthy to your point. Incomplete. I hear you. I'll check that same box. Could this be a

Another possible final year? Not so sure, just with the current group that's now coalesced at the top. But at the same time, it doesn't mean that there's no slight on Tommy. That's their ascension that just happens to push him out. Not so much his game has fallen off.

Alvin Owusu (16:07.109)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (16:20.87)
Right. And you know, before this year he finished, he finished 2024 ranked 12. He finished 2023 ranked 13. That's about the, that's about the Tommy Paul window. Like, yeah, that's where he's at. And I would expect, assuming good health, that's where I expect him to be next year. I haven't, I mean, he's a phenomenal mover, phenomenal athlete, like tests off the charts and you see it in his matches. I don't, I haven't seen any signs of slippage there. I think he's probably good for another two years to be playing at this level. So I, this is.

Torrey (16:27.558)
That's where he's at.

Alvin Owusu (16:49.326)
And he's hit that point in his career. talked about peaks and primes in another episode, but he's hit that point where he's not getting beat by new players at this point. The guys above him have proven they can beat him consistently, and then the ones below him, he has proven that he can beat them consistently. And I feel like this slip to 20 is more like, it's kind of like a Casper Root slip. I had an injury-impacted year. These are the results. Okay, back to full health, and we will continue back to where we've seen before.

Torrey (17:07.982)
Yep, 100%.

Torrey (17:15.095)
percent.

Alvin Owusu (17:18.298)
got a little bit out of order here. I wanna talk about Francis since he's the third player in this cohort. I don't know if you caught his interview on Antirotic Surf podcast, but Francis said some things that they didn't sit well with me. And I'm just a dude in a chair with a microphone, right? What I think doesn't really matter all that much, but.

Torrey (17:22.127)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey (17:36.454)
Hmm.

Alvin Owusu (17:41.912)
He said something specifically around, know, I've just gotten to the point in my career now where I need to be better at just putting in the work when no one's watching. Like trying to find some, finding joy in those hard work days, practice days where previously I, you know, I didn't. And I took that and I processed it as, you wanna be a professional tennis player now.

Torrey (17:52.805)
Mmm.

Torrey (18:01.478)
You

Torrey (18:10.074)
Hmm

Alvin Owusu (18:10.246)
because that's the job, right? That's the job. He's been very good at rising to the occasion during bright light situations, right? And doing the entertaining thing and making himself a household name with his run at the US Open a couple years ago. But that does not a full professional's career make, right? And that is...

Torrey (18:36.569)
champion make.

Alvin Owusu (18:39.706)
That's my beef with him, that's one thing. The other thing is he keeps, always talks about this God given natural ability and natural talent and that he needs to fulfill it. And I've gotten to the point where I'm like, everyone on tour is talented. Everyone is talented. So if you take that off the board, like I had, was talking to, I used to work with Damian Wilkins, Brother of, nephew of Dominique Wilkins, son of Gerald Wilkins.

And we were talking about one of these players that came out of my high school much long after I did basketball player, Sharif Cooper. Sharif Cooper played at McEachern High School and then he went to Auburn and he ended up playing for the Hawks for a little bit. And Dave and I were talking and he was like, well, what do you like about Sharif? And I was like, well, he's quick, very competent in the lane, yada, yada, yada. And he's like, well, how tall is he? I'm like, he's about six foot. He's like, okay. In the NBA, everyone's quick. All the point guards are quick. He's not a dog on defense.

And he's small. So I don't, I don't see it. And I took that and he played in the league. He now runs a program, Overtime Elite. And I'm like, yeah, that's kind of the thing. When you get to that level, everyone's got the basic tool set. Like your thing is now the norm. So what do you do with that?

Torrey (20:00.452)
Right. It might be average if not a tad below the norm. If you're really, if you're really being real, you know, let's be honest here.

Alvin Owusu (20:04.097)
Exactly.

A 6'5 center in high school is now a 6'5 shooting small forward in college and he's now at, right, if he gets to the next level he's playing point guard. It's a whole different, it's all about scale.

Torrey (20:14.564)
If he has handle.

Torrey (20:20.481)
yeah, if he gets the next level, he's probably sitting bench and he's a he's a practice dummy for the six eight point guard, you know, who's who's starting and to your point, but to your point.

Alvin Owusu (20:27.901)
Right, exactly, exactly. So to the Francis point, it's like, I don't wanna hear anymore about the talent. I'm kind of, you can miss me with that, I'm over it. And the fact that we now, now we're talking about, you know, finding value in these practice days, I'm like, you're killing me. Like, this is the job. This is, like, what have you done? Right, so why am I to think that because you're saying this on a podcast,

Torrey (20:46.318)
Yeah. Yeah. But but he never did. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (20:57.209)
that I should believe anything different. What's different?

Torrey (20:59.876)
Well, I think he would like to be on the other side of that microphone one day with the grand slam to his belt. And I think that's one of the things where he's looking back at maybe a little bit of what could have been. think he's looking back a little bit, let's reminisce. Maybe he's reminiscing just a little bit. And maybe it's a little bit cryptic too, Alvin. The fact that he's almost coming to grips with that he doesn't or that he hasn't done it up to this point.

Alvin Owusu (21:17.285)
Hehehe

Torrey (21:28.623)
And you the old expression, Alvin, you do what you've always done, you're gonna get what you've always got, know, and so, and that's where he's at. And I love Francis, the kid has done more than I ever expected. Everybody thought he wouldn't do this and that. I remember talking to a group of coaches at, know, at the, Martin Blackman had an African American coaches summit, right, shortly after he took over the reins with player development and everybody and their uncle, you know, and probably me included, were all

Alvin Owusu (21:34.277)
which I always get.

Torrey (21:57.774)
talking about technique this and what had helped the forehand, the serve. I mean, there was nothing picture perfect about anything, you know what I mean? That he did. And I remember talking to a group of coaches afterwards and I was like, you know what guys? I had a weird experience with a certain guy named Novak Djokovic. And what he showed me then was how much better he could still get with all those flaws. And he was still hanging with the top of the game.

that time. And so Francis is that player. I remember, I remember the competition goes yesterday. He's overachieved in my opinion, with those God given skills. And I feel like maybe he's doubling down on it because he knows that something can't take away from him. You know, what, what top running back doesn't think he's still fast, right? What, you know, what wide receiver doesn't think he doesn't have hands, you know, I mean, you're going to double down on what you know, and what you feel you have in spades. And you know what, who am I or you to tell me a different

And you're getting that honesty when he's talking to a grand slam American, you know, behind his microphone, not necessarily if it was me or you, right? And so I think that's where that level of respect comes in. And quite frankly, Andy did put in the work, you know what I mean? you you heard it right here, Andy, had Andy not put in the work, Andy would probably not have gotten that one that he got, especially in the crew that he came in with, you know what I mean? And so I think Francis doesn't want to...

Alvin Owusu (23:16.494)
Right.

Torrey (23:21.229)
Brantles would like to, he would like to pride himself on being in closer to Andy's level of that elite group as opposed to outside of that group. And I think that's where he's maybe, maybe the old, the old mortality, the old tennis mortality is talking to him on the shoulder. And that's what's what sparked that. I wish I checked that interview out. I'll check it myself, but it sounds like something else got under your skin. Tell me, sounds like it was more than that.

More than that, or maybe there was another statement he made that really kind of cemented your point because there's nothing wrong with what he said. I think that's actually being honest. Now, if he will do it or not, or if he can do it or not, and it'll make a difference, that's story. Because it's a little late in the game to me to be getting fit and getting serious about your tennis regimen. However, it can only help. It can only help stay healthy, let alone maximize what he's got left.

Alvin Owusu (24:15.247)
Sure, and then it's kind of the thing. I'm not salty, I don't think I'm salty. I have nothing against Francis. At points in my tennis watching career, I've seen Francis do, I look at tennis, a tennis career, a tennis professional from a macro level. It's not just what you do on the court, it's how you, it's because you can only do that for so many years, right? You can only play tennis for so many years, but can you use tennis to then,

Torrey (24:21.954)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (24:42.445)
set up the rest of your life and then have those impacts continue to reverberate in your lineage from generation to generation, right? So he's got about 10, 12 years to create value and then start to max it and then start to leverage that value after. So I think he's done a really good job of when he made that US Open run, it was in 2022 I believe it was, lost to Carlos in the semis, he started to do everything. He started to...

Torrey (24:50.038)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (25:12.291)
reap the benefits of that success. And I think that's the stuff you have to do. You only have so long to take these endorsement deals and run with them and become the face of American Tendus for a little while. show that you have, yes, and show that you have viability as a on-camera person, whatever aspect that may be. And we'll talk to the Chris Eubanks about this probably in the next few weeks.

Torrey (25:29.054)
Which he was.

Torrey (25:34.978)
I look the same.

Alvin Owusu (25:41.781)
Every a lot of what Chris Eubanks is now and has the opportunity in front of him is not afforded to someone who has been normally around 100 and 120 in the world, right? But what did he do when he got the opportunity on the tennis court and made it happen at Wimbledon for him? And then everything that came after that, he nailed it. He maximized and nailed it. And now he is has the ability to continue working in tennis entertainment in front of the camera for the rest of his career, like as long as he wants to.

Torrey (25:50.699)
percent.

Alvin Owusu (26:11.909)
And so there's no, but my point is that there's no problem with that. There's no problem with that, but let's just call it like it is. Like, let's call it like it is. Like, I mean, what, I think Francis peaked at 13 in the world, something like that. Nope. Not an issue. Not like not an issue at all, but maybe it was 18. don't know. Whatever, whatever. Maybe he cracked top 10 in 2022, but who, how many players in front of him can we honestly say?

Torrey (26:15.831)
Yeah!

Alvin Owusu (26:41.957)
And now I sound salty. How many players in front of him can we honestly say don't belong in front of him? Don't belong in front of him. I don't know. You play Carlos tough. Okay. But that's that's so you didn't win the match. A lot of people play him tough. You get close. Don't care.

Torrey (26:55.947)
Yeah. Alvin, I hear you. I hear you. Trust me, I do. I understand. This is always in Francis, as far as I'm concerned. It always will be Francis. He will always be talented. He will always be fun to watch. He will always be, you know, and I will always love his story. I will always love what he's able to achieve. Do I see to the the

Under the auspices of this conversation we're talking about next year, do I see that improving significantly? The answer is no. Do I see him repeating a semi-final Grand Slam finish? The answer is no. You're asking me my own personal opinion, my humble opinion, I submit to you, but it's still no. Do I see him hopefully getting healthy enough that he has a couple of good runs, a couple of strong five setters with the players that are in the top 10? I absolutely do. Do I see him coming on the top side of one of those due to improve fitness? I absolutely do.

Do I think that's enough to get into the quarters or a semi of a slam? He would need some help. And he's unfortunately in the numeric compartment where he will face one of those players as early as three days in. So that then makes it even more numerically unlikely because he will face them in the round of 32. He will then face another one in the round of 16. He will then face another one in the round and in the quarterfinal. And at some point you just don't have enough physical to give.

Alvin Owusu (28:06.124)
few of those players. Right.

Torrey (28:24.095)
You know, at that level. I don't see his tennis being so sharp, fitness being so sharp for him to rattle off two or three 500s with some of the current players that are still, once you spread out those same top 10, top 15, top 20 players to be able to win those and get through the ascendant top 20 players. You know, I, do I see him beating a Yakov Mensik? Not necessarily these days. Do I see him having a, a toe to toe?

Gut check with Yal Fonseca. I do. I would look forward to watching that match. I will come over to your house and we'll watch that match together just to see that passing of the torch kind of a match. But that's kind of what it'll be to me. It'll be a little more of a passing of the torch. It's a little more at this point. Yal's match to prove he's arrived and it'll be, you know, Francis' match to say he's still got it. And so, and that's how the torch is passed, right? In order to be the man, you got to beat the man. Francis is still the man, but.

Alvin Owusu (28:53.55)
There you go.

Torrey (29:15.666)
Unfortunately, he's getting long in the tooth compared to the next gen types coming up from behind him. And he will serve that purpose to me and be that litmus test for that up and coming 22 and younger player to pass him to prove that they have the goods to be him next year.

Alvin Owusu (29:34.245)
perfect segue because I do not think he is still the man. think he has already gone through that torch passing process to one like we'll just keep it in the African American lane here to one and US to one Ben Shelton, right? They've done this already. There was the US Open match two years ago where or was it last year 2024? It already happened, right? So and now you've seen like Ben is Ben is all those things that you've just laid out. He is 21 years old, right? He is a top 10 player. He is in a

Torrey (29:47.103)
Sure.

Torrey (30:01.939)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (30:03.936)
ascending player, is also pushing ish the top levels of the game, right? He's semi-finals against Novak in a Grand Slam and he's done semi-finals against, he's made a couple of semi-finals, I'll show you an open here, you have something there. Like he's at an early age, I think he has been in the position now to really like be Captain America for the next.

Torrey (30:11.988)
percent.

Torrey (30:20.553)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (30:31.234)
few years and he doesn't really seem to have a lot of like, he's not gonna benefit from that cohort of American players his age to necessarily push him. But yeah, I wanted to kind of move to him anyways. Ben, I think Ben is doing, I went back and listened to our episode of this same podcast last year and the things that you laid out that Ben needed to do and could he get himself to top 10? You felt very strongly that he could.

Torrey (30:39.731)
Yeah, yeah, true.

Alvin Owusu (30:59.362)
Well, you nailed it. He's currently sitting at nine, he was at eight, so on and so forth. He's where he needs to be right now. I think the biggest challenge he has for him is that he just happens to be, his cohort is just tough. Like it's tough. From Yannick to Carlos, Lorenzo, these guys are all the same age. just, this is what he has to deal with moving forward.

Torrey (31:14.409)
Yeah. Yep.

Torrey (31:23.647)
Yep. And the guy's his exact age. I gotta think Cabold is right in that same age frame. I gotta think that who else is in that exact, I'm trying to go some tough competitor. I say Cabold because he just won the Davis Cup in that big match. there's a few others that are in that same level that are just. Casper, a Holger can't be too much older. He 20, I'm about to say. My main man, my main man.

Alvin Owusu (31:29.604)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (31:46.756)
The Holger's 22, Draper's 23, Lahashka's 23, like the...

Torrey (31:52.926)
Got hurt French clean hairline my mate. I can't believe I'm forgetting his name face. It's easy. All right, so Arthur face. But as I'm saying they all that's his true quote unquote cohort to my point for Ben age wise Carlos is what only 22 himself. So I say it to say he's got a bit smoother. Fair fair fair. I thought I Ben was still 22. I agree with you 100 % last finish a point on on Francis.

Alvin Owusu (31:56.672)
Feast. Feast is younger. Yeah, but he's younger. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:08.964)
Well, I've been 23, so like, yeah, they're all, yeah, they're right there. Yep. Yep.

Torrey (32:20.701)
He is passed the torch on to, uh, to Ben, but he had the rest of them still. He's that's a one pass deal. That's not okay. Now that you beat me, the all can beat me. You know, that litmus test is still, he's still a block. He's like security at a real high end club. Okay. You can get through, but your friends can't, you know what I mean? You still got to get through me too. And I, and that's my point. Ben has proved that he has it and has done it and is now.

Alvin Owusu (32:43.022)
Yeah.

Torrey (32:50.522)
As a result has ascended to that top 10 for Ben's next year. I think Ben has top five potential. I think, and he would have, Ben has number one in the world potential say for Carlos and Alcaraz. I'm saying I'm a qualified say for Carlos and Alcaraz. And I tell you, Alvin, you think about this. you, sorry, Carlos and Yannick out of it and your boy retires.

Alvin Owusu (33:05.704)
Alvin Owusu (33:12.068)
Carlos Jannick.

Torrey (33:17.649)
There is no question that he doesn't have the game that could take a grand slam and play solid tennis for two weeks. The problem I have is those same three players are still playing right now. And so therefore I'm giving them top five potential, but I think he will only continue to improve. This young man is still not finished developed yet. Alvin, the guy's still getting better at his game. He's still getting better at coming in. He's still getting better at seeing the game. He hasn't picked physically.

Alvin Owusu (33:37.592)
Right.

Torrey (33:45.113)
only getting stronger, only getting sadder on the court, only getting more sure footed on the clay. If he continues to get good on grass, Alvin, do you know how good this kid could actually be? He could have three tournaments, three between the Australian, the Wimby and the US. And by the way, he won a title on clay. The guy is not terrible on the clay and he's starting to push some of the top guys at least taking sets off of them. By the top, mean Carlos and Yanak, Carlos.

And mind you, maybe was it a, was it a jet? Yeah, he broke me. Good set. But wasn't necessarily a threat to beat me. I agree with that. I'm just telling you the guy is still getting better. And that's why I feel he's got top five potential. And there you use this, use this analogy against this comparison when you talked about Taylor. I personally don't think Alex Zverev is going to continue at the level. I think he will be bumped out of the top five fairly soon. I don't know about, about Novak. None of us do, but clearly he's not a long-term.

thought as far as ATP is concerned. So there's two spots right there as far as guys are in front of him. I think he has the game to go through three of the other players that are in that fight through a cohort. got to tell you Alvin, if that being said, he plays well in Australia always has and it's coming up. So to me, you got guys like Zverev who need it and you got a guy like Ben who didn't have I don't think Ben had a phenomenal Australia last year. He had a little bit of a sophomore slump.

Alvin Owusu (35:01.814)
Yeah

Alvin Owusu (35:06.883)
Nah, he semifinaled it. Lost the center.

Torrey (35:09.248)
What was it two years ago? What was it two years ago when he came on the mat? It must have three years ago. He had a great, he had that loss to Novak three years ago. He had a sophomore something next year if I'm not mistaken. And then this past year he got semis. I'm telling you, the boy is gonna, the boy could do some damage this year if he puts four good slams together. It's not a question to be top five in the world.

Alvin Owusu (35:33.539)
I mean, I want to see him put two good, give me two. Give me two good slams. I mean, he got hurt at the US Open right against Matorino, take that out. He's semi-finaled Australia, okay, and lost the center.

Torrey (35:38.702)
But but but but what is right? Right. But but what's to are we talking we're talking this semi good?

Alvin Owusu (35:46.403)
Simi's great, yeah, Simi's great. I think you're spot on with.

Torrey (35:47.849)
I'm trying say, he could send me two of these this year, if not three.

Alvin Owusu (35:55.016)
I don't know about three, I question his, I just haven't seen it on Clay or, well Clay he lost to Carlos right at the quarterfinals, but that's gonna, he's gonna bump into Carlos or, he's gonna bump into someone who is otherworldly on Clay like Carlos or Yannick or Novak and that's the problem right? You gotta get away from those guys. Same thing with Taylor, if you get to three or four, that opens up a lot of things because take,

Torrey (36:06.012)
What happened?

Torrey (36:22.236)
It's up a lot of doors.

Alvin Owusu (36:24.257)
take Novak out that third spot through eight through 10, which even Francis spoke to this in the podcast. He's like, it's wide open. It is kind of wide open. Right now four through 20 is, it's a toss up, right? But you gotta get there. And that's the tough part. You have to swim through all that stuff. And right now he's surrounded by the Jack Drapers and the Musetti. But they're not going anywhere. That's the thing, they're not going anywhere. So any of them could be three.

Torrey (36:49.82)
and a great person not going anywhere, Musetti. But, but I like Ben's chance against all of them except for the other two. Give me the three, four, five, six. I'll take my chance. Give me two of them as opposed to playing the two that are on a destiny direct flight to greatness. Give me anybody else and I think.

Alvin Owusu (36:57.335)
Fair.

Torrey (37:15.609)
He's got the goods to take out. If you told me he had to play Mouseti and Draper back to back, is a very tough order by the way, I would say give me that over playing Carlos or playing Yannick. So I'm just saying, and I like his chances. That's why I'm saying top five. I really think he's only gonna keep getting better. And again, once the dust settles with Novak and I clearly don't see Alex Zverev having a...

Alvin Owusu (37:21.955)
That's tough.

Torrey (37:44.783)
downshift at this late stage in his career. So now you're looking at the rest of the guys, the Musettis, the Drapers, the RGL alias teams. You got these guys that I feel he's just as competitive with. know what mean? again, we'll see. Holger's hurt, right? So there's some low hanging fruit for Ben Shelton, not for anybody else. There's some low hanging fruit for guys that have the ability to go through some players if they're playing.

Alvin Owusu (37:58.904)
Right.

Torrey (38:13.871)
And I think that's the one difference he brings to the table where a lot of those guys don't bring to the table is he has the ability to go through you if he's playing well and a lot of guys need help.

Alvin Owusu (38:25.143)
Yeah. And that's the, that's, that's kind of the kicker, right? It's, the fire power. Do you, I'd like to start with some of the fire power and work my way into rounding out the rest of the game. Whereas the next person I wanted to talk about is kind of in the, in the opposite, opposite space. Lerner TN, right? Lerner TN has all the stuff that you love to see except for, he is like the opposite. He's the rest of Ben Shelton. Both lefty. Exactly. That's a good one.

Torrey (38:29.093)
Yep.

Torrey (38:32.453)
Right. Right.

Torrey (38:46.702)
Mm. Bit. Right. Twins. Twins. Dan DeVito and Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (38:55.095)
That's a good one. One's got the gun, right? The other one's got the wheels and the savvy. If we get both left handed, let's just put them together. Lerner had a great year. He's really announced himself from taking down Meti at Australian Open, won a title on the back end of the year, checked a lot of boxes earlier than you would have assumed.

Torrey (39:18.98)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (39:21.187)
some glaring weaknesses, but I do think he has some very unique skills that will allow him to, he finished the year ranked 20, I think 20 could be the baseline for him for a while. I don't know, I don't feel top 10 energy out of someone sub six foot, but 15 through 20, like could he be there? Because I feel like he's gonna show up, his game travels well.

He can kind of do it on all surfaces. It'll show up week in, week out. He is your professional version of a guy who makes balls. And then we'll turn the line on you when the opportunity presents itself just like one ball earlier than you thought it was gonna happen.

Torrey (39:59.652)
Cup, yap.

Torrey (40:09.668)
Do you think he has the game to beat 10 of the guys 11 through 20?

Alvin Owusu (40:20.339)
I think he has the game to beat the guys that are 11 through 20

Torrey (40:25.654)
If you had to go down the list, 11 through 20. Again.

Alvin Owusu (40:27.747)
Yeah, here's the thing, saw it with my own two eyes in Washington. I saw him beat Rublev, and Rublev is almost like the archetype for 15 in the world right now. Maybe, I mean, he's been higher, but this is where is right now. He's somewhere between 10 and 15 probably, outside looking into Turin. So I saw Lerner beat him, and then he turned around and beat Lerner a few months later, but.

That could happen, but I could see him taking down a Hatchinoff every once in a while. I could see him beating a, who else is in front of him? Someone like, like LaHatchka. Yeah, he could take LaHatchka down. Yeah, like that will happen on occasion.

Torrey (41:09.786)
I see him beating Lajaska better than Katchanov and I see him beating Rubalev anytime Rubalev's having a bad day. I don't know if I see him beating the same level as him in the 11 through 20 space. I didn't say could he beat a top 20 player. I hear that. I'm asking you if you went through 11 through 20, okay, I'll give you, I'll give Rubalev. Great. I'll give you Matic, right? Both of these players are bigger, stronger bashers.

Alvin Owusu (41:32.515)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (41:36.227)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (41:39.62)
that don't come to net much, that don't do a lot, except bash. And I think that style is getting countered very well. He just happens to be lefty and good on both sides. I just don't know if his lack of serve and his lack of true firepower, especially off his foreign weight, he can hit it bigger, don't get me wrong. I don't, and his size, I don't know if he has the ability to beat so many of them. Will he have an upset or two at a big, in their opening rounds? For sure.

He finished what? 30 in the world this year. Do I see him getting top 20? Top 20 is going to be tough. Do I see him? Do I see him beating all the rest of them? The problem also becomes Alvin. He's being gifted. It's a It's a weird gift. Used the word because of beating a seed early. He gets that seeds draw. He gets now top 30. He's now the low seed, right? Now he is the hunted and now you got guys that are gunning for him.

Alvin Owusu (42:10.666)
Yeah, we're on 30, yep.

Alvin Owusu (42:27.67)
Right. Yeah.

Torrey (42:36.889)
that might just be able to reverse the court, come forward on him, take advantage of that serve and not be so worried about him being lefty. And that now becomes a very different horse race, a foot race. So that's kind of what I'm looking at. Do I see him breaking top 20? I could see him getting right at 19, 20 in that range. He's gonna have to get a serve. He's gonna have to get some weapons. The good thing is he's still young out and he could, he really could. I just feel like the shorter

quicker players, they depend a lot on speed. They depend a lot on the physical getting to that ball. Even even half a step slow makes them a notch lower, you know, I mean, and a full step slow. He's not going to get he's not going to get faster, right? He's as fast as he is now potentially total and I look at all the top players that were that were his height his size and his kind of game style. You look at that Michael Chang's you look at the Layton Hewitt's

They were all in a similar mold. hit their prime pretty quickly. They did their damage early. By the time they were 23, 24, they were pretty much done. Kaden Ishikori is a notable exception in terms of his length of time, but he's too, right? Got a step slow and he's, and he wasn't the same Kaden Ishikori. He did a little longer than most and was quicker than most you might say, but he didn't, he wasn't playing his top, top tennis, you know, till mid to late twenties, you know, he was already there at mid twenties. So,

And you don't get much more professional than Kaneish Corey. So I say it to say he, he needs to kind of figure that out now while he still has the foot speed, ball speed coefficient to his credit and then, and then have a couple of years where he can actually hold serve on his own without needing help having an errant, just overaggressive player. Because at some point, and you, you, said this, you know, now the book is out on learner 10, you know, he, he was a surprise before now you're not a surprise anymore.

People know about you. They respect you. Now they know how to beat you. There's more tape on you. People know how to play you. And so at that point to me, that's the real testament of a top player is year two, year three, you know, can you do it again?

Alvin Owusu (44:45.378)
And I think that, but I think that holds true for like, let's say the top 10 players in the world, right? So like, he beat Mevedev at the Australian Open, but then Mevedev beat him later on in the year. He beat Zverev some point earlier in the year, and then Zverev like wiped him up at French Open first round. But that's what you expect out of your former Grand Slam finalists, Grand Slam champion, top 10 players to able to do. then he also beat Ben this year, right? And he beat Rublev, and he beat Gabbale.

Torrey (44:50.444)
Thanks.

Torrey (45:04.024)
Top 10. Sure. Sure. Sure.

Torrey (45:11.863)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (45:15.138)
He beats serendelo and he beat nori twice. So I'm just like I look at it's like these aren't one-offs like one time He beat someone in the top 20. He's consistently beating players ranked in the 20s I'm just like he could he could continue to beat kabali. Yeah, he could continue to be kabali. He could continue to beat serendelo not all the time, but Yeah, just like yeah

Torrey (45:22.711)
No hate rate

Continue, I'm not so sure. and and Sarundalo. All right, that's what saying. I will push back on continually, but beat them, competitive with them. Oh, kidding me. The kid's doing it all without a serve. Think about that. He's beating them without a serve. So it's the same comment I made about Novak and Francis. Oh, 100%.

Alvin Owusu (45:43.383)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And he will show up week in and week out. yeah, his game does not have large swings in it, is what I'm saying. Like that game travels from Budapest to Berlin to DC. It's gonna show up.

Torrey (45:52.565)
No, no, not at all. Shoot, yeah. It's carry on. He never risks it in baggage claim. mean, he puts that, it's with him. It's his personal item, his personal item. You know what I mean? So I'm telling you, I love the kids game. I'm trying, the question was top 20. And so that's what I'm like, and cause top 20, know, top 20 means you are beating routinely guys.

Alvin Owusu (46:02.282)
It's carrot. Exactly. Not even up top. It's going under the seat. Yeah. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good.

Torrey (46:22.092)
you know, at least a few times a year in the five in the five through 15 space. Think about what I'm saying because you have to to be able to get there just numerically. So that means beating one of them to get their draw to get their quote unquote points knowing you may not do it two or two or three slams in a row. You know, he beat Medi and took Medi's draw, right? He took, you know, even when he beat Medi. He also is the he's the weird lefty nemesis who's lefty.

Alvin Owusu (46:29.398)
Right, yeah?

Torrey (46:51.317)
He has both sides. Usually a lefty is something, know, Nadal was one of those kind of lefties. He had a good backhand. He wasn't a lefty that hit a lot of forehands. Nadal preferred his backhand. So he was the lefties nemesis who was lefty. You don't have a lot of lefties aren't that way. Ben's not that way. right. Chappell's not that way. Who else did you mention was another lefty mentioned in that same team and that same sphere. Norris. Cam Norris is not that way.

Alvin Owusu (47:15.884)
Kim nori, Kim, Kim, Kim, yeah, Kim's weird.

Torrey (47:20.675)
Cam's a weird lefty, but he's not a nemesis left. He's got a better back than you think. And they got that, get that weird shovel back and that funky forehand, but that forehand can break down. And with the lefty and learner's pretty even on both sides. So he doesn't really need a matchup either way. And if you prefer one, he's like, okay, got it. He's that old school baseball switch hitter that was, he was batting, he was batting.

Alvin Owusu (47:25.162)
Right, yeah. Right.

Alvin Owusu (47:42.55)
Right, exactly.

Torrey (47:43.799)
batting 400 on the right and batting 350 on the left. Like, okay, which, which one do you want today? You know what I mean? Cause I'm not too terrible on my bad side. And that's where he's at to me, as I said, and without a serve. So should he get a serve out of it? About 20 for sure. I just would like to see him get a serve to be able to be good enough on, I say good enough to be consistent up for the, for those inevitable rounds of 64, 32, where, the rubber starts meeting the road where you're going to have to hold a guy in the men's game. You just going to have to hold.

It's just a story as old as time.

Alvin Owusu (48:18.796)
Right, yeah. So yeah, that's kind of where we are with that one. We'll keep moving. This is where I kind of draw the line and I have questions, right? So I call it my worry line. What happens after this group? So Lerner is 20 years old, Ben is 23 years old. They're both in the top 30, right? Okay, that's kind of like up and to the right that you're looking for. Young players making that breakthrough. But we have after this,

Torrey (48:28.821)
you

Torrey (48:35.828)
Meh.

Alvin Owusu (48:48.266)
ages 20 to 25, we don't have anything that jumps off the page. And then this is where I sound the alarm for men's tennis on the American side, right? Like there's nothing that, I haven't seen anything that makes me go, our next version of Taylor Fritz is in this group right now. And that is worrisome. Mickelson, right? Alex Mickelson.

Torrey (48:59.509)
the

Torrey (49:06.822)
is right.

Alvin Owusu (49:16.852)
in his camp as friend to, friends of the pot, right? Pops early in the year against, against Sitsipass at the Australian Open, makes a nice little run, but then kind of, kind of flat, not necessarily flat-lined, but maybe, that was obviously the outlier result of the year. So with him carrying a top 40 ranking, a lot of it's coming from those points. I think you probably got a better grip on, on Alex's game than I do. Big guy.

moves okay, hits a clean backhand. But is it, okay, but is that high praise or is that selling Taylor's accomplishments short?

Torrey (49:48.398)
He's a Taylor Fritz. What about him?

Torrey (50:01.802)
It's saying that. body type, body type game style. I only put him in. is a Taylor Fritz type. He's not a Taylor Fritz. And I say that to be very specific on style of game, big hitter, range, serve, forehand, not as mobile. It was the intent. Could he maximize like Taylor has done? Well, that remains to be seen.

Alvin Owusu (50:01.857)
Because saying he's a Taylor Fritz makes me feel like, okay, then he's the guy.

Torrey (50:30.793)
think he has tailors.

Je ne sais quoi. He doesn't do a lot of things Taylor does well. However, do I think the kid has upside? Yes, I do. Do I think that Alex could best, could he meet or at the very least?

The equivalent of what he did in Australia within a couple of slams I do. Do I think that he has the ability, has upside to be a top 30, top 20 player, top 20 maybe top for at least right now, he would have done it already this year in my opinion. But at the same time, he's still 21, Alvin. feel like guys like him, just need a couple of good wins with a little momentum to get some belief, to let them understand where they're at. I don't think the cement's yet.

I don't think it's 100 % in that situation. think it's I think it's still formable and I think that's a good thing for him. I think he needs to continue to lean on the coaching staff that he has in front of him, continue to work on his fitness, get as quick as he can and continue to get to the stinking net more. I feel like a lot of these guys that aren't as swift a foot need to be better on the reads and get to the net man and start.

making the court go a little more north-south because of their maybe lack of foot speed going side to side. And I've seen it for a lot of guys. I've seen a notable player on your list here a couple of spots down who to me continues to annoy me with his reluctance to come forward. And I feel like, okay, it's not your fault that you weren't born fast and it's not your fault that you maximize what you have, but it is your fault to not recognize the opportunities to get in and maximize your height. So.

Alvin Owusu (51:51.615)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey (52:15.956)
That's that's where I feel and do I think he could do as good if not better than last year 1000%. Do I think he can improve on last year 1000 % top 20 maybe maybe some tough sledding for him, but I do feel he could get up there and and again all he needs is four matches of slam. He needs four matches, you know, at a slam to I say for three, three good match of the slam to to do that. And if you do that twice a year great, but and really start to get consistent to me. There was another tall player.

from North Carolina that I remember that did pretty well and cleaned up at the two fifties when they were still around in the five hundreds and Mr. John Isner did a phenomenal job of managing both his serve as well as coming to net as well as this managed his schedule pretty well. Last I checked that I know John would agree with me. He was never the fastest player out there and but continue to get better and continue to just get more and more and he maximized what he did.

Alvin Owusu (53:06.849)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (53:12.208)
And I think that's one of things that I look at that I look for. Mickelson, he should be looking to be a modern day John, a version of that to just really understand what he's doing. And he's got a couple more years to do it still. If all things hold true to course as far as injuries and his playability. If he can do that, I could see 20 to 25 in his future for sure. This year?

Alvin Owusu (53:38.722)
He reminds me of, guess maybe his archetype could be someone like a Karen Hatchanoff, right? Big guy, big hitter. And he beat Karen at I'll Show It Open after he beat, I think two rounds after he beat Sitsipass, right? But that kind of big bruiser that if you get locked into a bassline rally can be extremely physical where he tends to struggle and same thing with Hatchanoff is when it turns into a

athletic corner to corner run around type of match, which is what unfortunately a lot of the guys in the top 10 can do. Not just the centers and the Alcaraz's, but even Kabali is a version of that, right? Runa is a version of that. All these guys can move and hit from corner to corner, and that's where, I mean, his strength and conditioning team, Rocket and Jenepri, that's probably their

Torrey (54:16.392)
Yep.

Torrey (54:21.267)
Yeah, yeah, just the shorter one, but yeah.

Alvin Owusu (54:36.811)
That's probably their task right now while they're getting ready for Australia is like, we've got to be better at hitting and moving and hitting and moving and hitting and moving. We just old school, it's not just rally tolerance, it's where rally tolerance meets straight conditioning in this kind of, this is tennis in 2026.

Torrey (54:45.619)
Yep.

Torrey (54:51.101)
Yep.

Yeah, yeah.

Torrey (54:58.291)
Sure. You know what else I'll add to that Alvin? You mentioned neps. Robbie Gnepary had a mutant ability on the return of surf. Call it reads, call it eyesight, call it hands, call it whatever you want to call it. Robbie's returns were phenomenal. I don't mean good, phenomenal. Since he was a young kid. You bring up, I brought up Taylor Fritz, especially on the grass.

but other services as well. And the returns pretty darn good, Alvin. I'm not so sure that Alex can't spend a ton more time on returns and get his returns better so he doesn't have to move as fast, as big, dare I say, as hairpin corner, as he need, as he's been doing and waste valuable leg strength, right?

Alvin Owusu (55:34.145)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey (55:56.106)
in those corners. He needs to hold and save those legs to hold serve. And I just think that better returns will do that for you. I think that's one of the issues I've always seen with guys like guys like Rubalep. They just they they're always hitting that super clean ball. Yeah, it hurts me once again. But the other three or four car might tell me and I'm able to redirect you. At some point, you got to look at those.

I know that's good to do and it's good to be aggressive. We use that term way too much in tennis. Gotta be aggressive. Yeah, but you gotta be smart too. And I think one of the things I learned from Robbie years ago was, yeah, you wanna take away time from the opponent, but don't take away time from yourself. And that was something that made, that just stuck with me when Nets was talking about that. It just, I feel like that's something that when you mentioned that, it just stuck me like, that's really the real piece to me that Robbie could really add to.

to Alex is to get his return so good, so deep that he's in the point four or five times a service game. And that could really, that could make a huge impact for him. Cause we know he can bring it on the serve, but that will also take pressure off of this serve knowing that he can be in every return game. Hey Alex, Alvin, you get six chances to break provided you hold, you know what I mean? So, but, if you're slapping returns, missing balls, running around balls, he's got a clean back and he can return. I'm just saying that to me.

Alvin Owusu (57:13.172)
Yeah.

Torrey (57:18.961)
practically would do such wonders for him. We've seen we've seen tall players like Jakub Mince do the same thing. He's able to do it. He's a young gung-gun with a big forehead and then a big serve. You know, why can't Alex drink from that same Kool-Aid and figure out that side of the game to me again? He's 38. He ain't 88. He's, you know, or 28. What is he in the world? He ain't, you know, he's already proven he can be some of the top 38 in the world. That ain't chicken feet. But to get into that next 20, buddy, you

Alvin Owusu (57:38.88)
Right, right, right.

38, yeah.

Torrey (57:48.037)
You just can't have, you can't give a guy a loose return game. You just can't, and you darn sure can't give him three.

Alvin Owusu (57:54.677)
Yeah, you know, wanna, the Genepris piece of it, know, Robbie and I are the same age, same graduating year in high school, same academy, know Robbie well. And whenever you bring up his name, I've played him, not only practiced with him, played him in tournaments, like I got some flashbacks of some things that have happened to me playing against Mr. Genepris. And I tell you, it's, yeah.

Torrey (58:14.027)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (58:22.176)
Return to serve is both an art and a science, right? You need to have the technical ability to go through and use your legs and all that stuff. There's a way to hit the return properly. the way that you, almost in the way that Agassi used to talk about, pitching a return game, right? It's very much so like that. Someone like a, let's use Taylor. Taylor's going to back up a lot. He'll take bigger swings on one side, shorter swings on the other side.

Torrey (58:38.15)
and

Alvin Owusu (58:50.334)
And that is a tactical, that's a tactical adjustment based on the skills that he has, the ability to read and then how good are your hands, right? Robbie, right, Robbie blessed with a great read and great hands. And that allows him, that would allow him to take balls early and move them outside the court.

Torrey (58:53.489)
decision.

And what he wants. Right.

Alvin Owusu (59:16.18)
without having to give up too much court position, right? You don't wanna come, like you said, hitting yourself out of the point, like by being too aggressive. That means don't come up so far that you're now in a bad spot for your first ball after the return and not back up so far where you're swinging through your shoes, but then now you're giving away so much court on the very next ball. It's a perfect blend. So I'm just gonna say, easier said than done, given you have the requisite tools.

Torrey (59:31.259)
Right? That's right.

Torrey (59:43.853)
percent

Right. 1000 %

Alvin Owusu (59:46.954)
to do that, to do that. But there's another player, yeah, and there's another player I wanna make sure that we get a chance to talk about here. Again, Sebastian Korda, I just need to see him. I need to see him healthy. I need to see him healthy first. I can't really judge his game. He is the one that everyone speaks highly of, you included. I just need to see him healthy and fulfill the prophecy, right?

Torrey (01:00:02.256)
Right. I agree with that.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:18.344)
A little further down our list is Ethan Quinn. Actually, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and talk about Ethan Quinn and the rest of these guys.

----PART 2----

Alvin Owusu (00:01.242)
Yeah, so Ethan Quinn, we had Trent Bride on earlier this year. And Trent, I think Trent and Ethan were on the same team together at University of Georgia at least one year. And Trent spoke really highly of Ethan, said, he made some comments that along the lines of Ethan has one of the best four he's ever seen in his life.

And that one stuck with me because at that point in time, I think I had either just seen Ethan in person in Dallas, I think I had just seen him in Dallas. And I was a little unsure. So Ethan, I remember if I remember this correctly, he was a freshman at University of Georgia, won the singles national championship and found himself in this position where I have the opportunity to take this wild card into the US Open and go pro. And he almost like was almost forced into turning pro.

a little before he would have wanted to. He was ready. was 18, 19 years old, something like that. Talented, but not yet ready. And so now we're at a point where he you know, he's thrown into the deep end, finally gotten himself up to the surface. And then now he's learning how to swim. And lo and behold, Ethan, 21 years old, has gotten himself to 70 in the world. I remember seeing him at the French Open and

Torrey (00:57.687)
is ready.

Alvin Owusu (01:25.422)
thinking like, is this the same player that I saw like four months ago in Dallas? And then couple that with what Trent said about him, you know, from practicing and playing with him. I'm like, 70 is not, that's, that's, that's direct entry into, into grand slams. We're not messing around anymore. so I don't know if that is, I don't know what his top end is, but if you tell me someone is 21.

Torrey (01:27.82)
Right, right.

Torrey (01:43.158)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (01:52.794)
played a year college sentence and is 70 in the world at age 21.

Torrey (01:57.527)
with barely two years in, that's pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (02:00.064)
Right. That's, yeah, yeah. And I don't know how good that is. I don't wanna like overextend myself here, but it's, it ain't nothing, right?

Torrey (02:11.053)
Nope, nope. And he's got the kind of game that could that if it gets hot, he could take down a few players. He could be a bit streaky with results because of that the game being his game style. But at the same time, he could take down a of players with that game style. So I like Ethan. I've always loved him. I think he's a bright spot for this part of the draw. There are other players in your below your worry line.

that I don't think have the goods to go much farther than what they are. They have had some great close match with some of the players. You know, I don't know. I just don't know if they have the goods to go farther. They to me have. They just have gone as far as they're as they're going to go at this point in time. And so that makes me look at guys like Alex, guys like Ethan a little more because they're in the same group, but haven't had the same time. Right. And so all things mean equal.

I'm going to err on the side of the guy who still has more to learn over the guy that's showed me four years that he has not moved his needle due to game changes. He doesn't make game development things that he didn't take the time to put in when they when they're ready. And to me, a guy like EQ could 100 % 100 % continue to develop and get some of those same skills. And to me, 70 means he's hungry. He's he's an outlier. And that's where a kid like him really wants to be. It's to that surprise.

I have guys realize, hey, I'm 70, but I've got a top player in the world for him. You know I mean? And so, you know, don't sleep on me. And I think that's where that kind of low expectation, right? Mendoza is, suits him just fine. And now he gets to play underdog. He gets to be played the upset role a little bit. I would be more worried about him had he been higher and had to defend some of these big results. think he's.

perfect where he's at, he's poised to make a nice run. I could see him breaking inside the top 50 very, very easily this year, just off of three or four good tournaments, you know what mean? Because of his game.

Alvin Owusu (04:13.709)
Yeah, I think that's probably what I wanted to hear out of that one. Now he is at the point where he's not gonna have to qualy into the slams. Pretty close to direct entry into the Masters. A good run in Australia, a good run is just like winning two matches. And for a kid who's young, moves well, 6'3", right? And that's important, because he ain't little. That is that.

Torrey (04:21.888)
Right.

Torrey (04:31.669)
Yeah.

Yep. Yep. Yep. That's awesome. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (04:42.073)
That keeps me hopeful. I'm gonna keep an eye on Ethan Quinn this year because he has done some things in the last nine months that make you go, this is worth keeping an eye on. The juice is worth the trees. Not to tip my cap on the WTA portion of this soiree, but I also did the same thing with Peyton Sterns last year and it was not fruitful for me. So I'm gonna be careful.

Torrey (04:52.031)
Right? Yeah. The juice is worth the squeeze. Yeah.

Torrey (05:09.111)
Yeah. Yeah. still still a lot there. Still a lot there from Peyton. Still a lot there. You know what I mean? And we'll see how she rebounds this year. You know what I mean? To me, you have to look at the tour, Alvin, over a course of a five year period of time. The good and bad. The bad is if it's been five years, well, you know, how much more do we need to see that which we haven't already seen? And the flip side of that is especially these guys that go to a year of college. It's it's a

Alvin Owusu (05:12.215)
Yeah, yeah, it is what it is.

Alvin Owusu (05:19.587)
We shall see.

Torrey (05:38.091)
full two years that are going to give you 18 months worth of playing because think about it, Alvin, we look at the tour, you and I as experienced coaches, who are travelers, you know, what have you. We think of the tour in the eyes of the top 10, the top 20. That's the highlight reel. That's ATP masters. That's direct main draw, this, that, and the third. The challenger circuit.

And even some of the two fifties back when the day and obviously there are more 500s now that are, there's still some two fifties, but they're in other kind of obscure places. They don't, it's not that robust nor, and when the grand slams happen, almost to a tournament, there's nothing else going on. So if you don't make the slams, you're off for those two weeks because nothing else is going on. Right? So you.

Alvin Owusu (06:25.497)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey (06:28.502)
The flip side of that's eight weeks. That's two months of the year. You don't play if you're not making those same things. So I just wanted to make sure for our viewers that may not understand, know, the tennis year is really only about nine months long. You know what mean? It's 10 months if you're top third in the world. You know, it's almost 11 months if you're top 10 in the world, right? But for the rest of them, it's only nine months. You take out two of those nine, that's seven months, Al. That's all you got.

Alvin Owusu (06:47.682)
Right.

Torrey (06:54.088)
You know, so you'd look at that. You got to look at that. Now you got to be strategic about where you're going, what you're going to call in. Calling in is big because you got some wins under your belt. You have a chance to knock down somebody who's coming in, who's a little bit, you know, not as not as match tough yet, but same time, 70 is a whole lot better than being that being 110. You know, so I look at it to say, you know, this could be a good year for Ethan. I look forward to him and Alex both. They're just now getting into that. Into that point where they're getting OK.

I know my schedule. I'm going to be here. Not hopeful. Not I'm calling in, not I'm playing. No, no, I'm directly in. I know my schedule. can kind of set my schedule for this year with a foot likely for the first time. And now I'm able to set things up, get things going and plan. Now with that plan comes less anxiety with less anxiety comes a little better feel. You get that term four or five days early. You get, got things set up. You're there hit with all the top players. You kind of feel like you belong a little bit more and you get that much more settled.

Alvin Owusu (07:25.815)
Right?

Torrey (07:48.202)
you know, working yourself into a tournament as opposed to queues here. Two weeks from now, you don't know where you were going to be. It depends on here and here. Went on a wild card. I mean, all that stuff can be very, can be very chaotic. And so to see him get that point now is a big milestone for him. And for a guy whose game is pretty explosive, you want as many knowns as you possibly can get because you're going to get, you're going to take some risks, you know, as you should, but to have everything else be set, feel good about what you're doing, that could only bode well for a guy like him with this kind of game.

Alvin Owusu (08:17.677)
Yeah, and kind of but to your, harking back to your point about the college players needing about, you know, two years to get 18 months worth of work in and then, you know, trying to figure out, can I make it at X level on this professional tour? I feel like the poster child for that right now is like Brandon Nakashima, right? Like, I think Brandon Nakashima is a coach's dream when you watch him hit a ball, like that guy is like, that's work right there, that backhand, you put it in the loop, I think it's perfect. But.

Torrey (08:35.369)
20%.

Torrey (08:39.198)
Yep.

Torrey (08:42.557)
Yeah, yeah, it is.

Alvin Owusu (08:46.105)
We had not seen much more out of Brandon than what we got. mean this year, maybe I'm being too critical. So he finished last year, like right around 45, 48 in the world, something like that. Then this year we're up to 33. So moving back in the same direction where he was in 2023. But from a top end standpoint, I just don't get, it's a good hang, it's a good hang watching Brandon Nakashima play tennis.

Torrey (08:49.508)
Yeah. Yup.

Torrey (09:15.027)
Yup. Yup.

Alvin Owusu (09:16.089)
But I'm not like, I don't want to live there. You know what I mean?

Torrey (09:18.825)
Yeah, I agree with you on a lot of levels. think Brandon Bnoch is one of those kind of players who just he does everything. He does everything well, nothing superb. His serve is big, but not huge. Backhand's unreal. Forehand's good, not huge. He's not overly tall. He's not short. It's just everywhere. If he is the Mendoza, right, the prop and he has maximized all he can and he continues to do so. And God, he's just

Alvin Owusu (09:30.072)
rate.

Torrey (09:47.537)
I never count the guy out. I love what he stands for. A guy that's out there still trying, still doing his thing. I felt similar about a lot of players that were like him and at that style because you see so many 6'6, 6'7 types that have overachieved with some of those same set of skills. And so I look at him and say, he wasn't blessed with some of that and he's made up whatever he has in hard work. The guy just could.

You sent me a link and the, what's the biomechanist Gavin, I forget his last name. Right. But he raves about the guy's work ethic. So when a guy like that, that's seen work ethic across multiple sports and disciplines raised by the guy's work ethic, that to me says a lot too. you're never gonna, to me, you put in that kind of work, you're always gonna have some good results. you put a guy, he's only 24.

Alvin Owusu (10:25.272)
yeah, I also forget his name now, yep.

Torrey (10:45.353)
And he's not he's not 34. You know what mean? So I know what you're saying. And it's easy to get if I saw and I saw him play Ben multiple times in the last two years. It's something they always play each other in some way, shape or form. He's played Ben as tough as anybody. I think Ben's gotten more solid because of Brandon, ironically. And so as you keep playing that that kind of he's that Sarge Sarge. You know, I was a good friend of Agassi that they were good friends and boys.

Alvin Owusu (10:46.358)
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's...

Torrey (11:13.288)
I feel like that's what that's what be knock is kind of headed to, but he will, he will never be shy on, on, on work. And so when a guy like that puts the time in, he's got, he's got a good result out there waiting for him. Yeah. And it could be this year, it could be next, but he's, know, he's a, he's a testament to what the game and what development and improvements about the, to keep, to keep at it. So I really, I really hope he keeps going and digs in there because he went, you slip up, you, give him, you give him any level of daylight.

You know, he will, he will take it from you. Is he a top 10 potential kind of player? Not so sure. You know, I don't think he even thinks that, but he will certainly like to be the top 10 player on his bad day. He'll put the time and make sure that happens.

Alvin Owusu (11:56.121)
Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. That's probably more fair than I was being. All things considered, all you wanna see is progression. And he had an off 2024, some injuries and whatnot, but 2025 is back on track. Could Brandon, that's the kind of guy you want on your Davis Cup team. That's how Italy got so strong. Let's take center out, right? You've got just this collection of guys who are all between 15 and 50, just like.

Torrey (12:16.617)
god.

Torrey (12:20.391)
100%.

Alvin Owusu (12:25.248)
ready to sub in for one another. That's maybe, while we might not have the top end that we're looking for to push for Grand Slams, that is the depth of the US cadre at this point right now. And I think Brandon probably is the poster child for that. Before we get out of here, I do wanna get your thoughts on, my oddball, not oddball, I'm gonna say oddball.

Torrey (12:32.807)
Perfect.

Torrey (12:40.539)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey (12:44.805)
or upset.

Torrey (12:52.103)
Mmm.

Alvin Owusu (12:54.592)
Let me say my wild card. Jensen Brooksby. Jensen Brooksby. What? Jensen has some of that. He's got some of the stuff that like Lerner has where can can and will make balls and what he's going to do will not really vary from day to day match to match tournament to tournament, right? He is going to compete his ass off. He is going to make a lot of balls.

Torrey (12:56.529)
Okay? Okay! Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (13:24.44)
he is going to be unconventional and use it as a weapon. Probably won't win him a Grand Slam, but could it get him into a place where, okay, yeah, he's pushing people on a regular basis and maybe he does see the second week of a Grand Slam. Maybe somewhat, not consistently, but more times than not.

Torrey (13:50.011)
don't necessarily see him getting, being second in Grand Slam material. I see him being more of the, had a couple of good wins against the oney at some of the smaller events and believe I can hang and can, and can beat them on their bad day. And let me take those points and let me take that confidence with me to the next match. Jensen's a tough one to me because I don't.

If we're talking about b knock, you know, and not necessarily having some of the goods, you know, you know what I feel about Jensen Brooksby. But I'm going to reserve judgment because I always feel like, and I've said this to you before Alvin and I will continue to say it. can never measure the size of the dog in the fight. You can never measure the size of the fight in the dog. And he is that player. God, you love guys like him. You you just absolutely love, you cheer for him.

Alvin Owusu (14:25.845)
Right, yeah.

Torrey (14:44.731)
From a tennis standpoint, he's a tough matchup. I just would like to see, I would like to see him this year have one wrinkle better than he had in the last year or two. How old is Jensen? 25, right? So you're getting up there close on the four year, five year, do what you've always done, get what you've always gotten type of of thing. So.

Alvin Owusu (15:02.712)
25.

Torrey (15:13.702)
You know, is he and, yep. Right, right, right, right. But you and I both know he didn't stop playing during that timeframe, right? So as often as case of those kinds of guys and have those situations, I don't know, I don't know. So I'll give him two more years. Is that what you're saying? You know what I mean? Do I see him remarkably or significantly moving that needle? What do you have down here as 50 or so?

Alvin Owusu (15:14.028)
He was suspended for a couple years. He had that situation. Okay, but now we're back on track.

Right, right.

Torrey (15:40.798)
you know, in the world, do I see him cutting that in half? Not really. You know what I mean? Do I see him? Do I see it being top 30? You know, do I see him getting 40, you know, and, and numerically improving in that, in that 100 % 100 % doable possible past that inside the 30, you're going to do it over and over again. And I think, you know, to me, he, speaks to me as an upset specialist.

Alvin Owusu (15:45.952)
Oof. Oof. Yeah.

Torrey (16:10.021)
And while that's great to always have that ability with some of the top on a bad day, I'm not necessarily sure if the other 25 through 50 are that worried about him. And, you know, it would take a special couple of weeks for him to really catch fire and really do some things that you hadn't seen before. But I've seen a lot of players that were pretty unconventional. You know what I mean? I've seen, I'm old enough to remember.

Gene Mayer with two hands on both sides. I remember the Jensen brothers, figure of Jensen Brooksby, playing doubles, lefty righty and switching hands on overheads. I've seen some unconventional, I saw this guy named Ilya Bazolyak back in the day who had a two handed forehand and a one handed backhand. I mean, this guy was unreal, tall, I think he was a Serbian kind of guy. This guy was unreal. mean, two handed forehand, understand what I'm saying. One handed backhand, I who has that? mean, Ilya was, hands were ridiculous.

Alvin Owusu (17:03.81)
Yeah. Oof.

Torrey (17:07.909)
But again, I've seen some weird stuff, you know, who was my French specialist that always carved up Pete, always his name short, my main man Fabrice Santoro. So I've seen some weird unconventional game out there, you know what I mean? I don't know, I just don't know, know, to call him a Fabrice would be a compliment.

Alvin Owusu (17:22.296)
Cintoro.

Torrey (17:37.784)
Let's see what he does this year. Let's see, you know, I'll put a, the jury's still out for me, for Jensen. I feel like he needs to, you know, I feel like that's the longer it goes, the more likely there's not much change there is what my, is what my head says, but a guy like him that fights the way he does. You never count him out.

Alvin Owusu (17:57.164)
Yeah, I think it's probably important to kind of remember that when we look at this, the top end of American tennis, and this is why we think Ben is so special. Take him out. Francis, Taylor, Tommy, they all kind of hit this version of themselves around the age of 24. think Fritz is 25 when he finally cracked top 10. Francis was 24 when he cracked top 20. Tommy was 26, right?

When I say I don't see that next group, maybe it is, okay, year 2026, year 2027 is the time for guys like Brandon Nakashima, for guys like if Sebastian Korda can get himself healthy, if Jensen Brooksby is gonna be more than a one-off kind of guy. This is actually the time, this is the age, is, 2026 is crucial for American tennis right now to see what we've got.

Torrey (18:36.332)
Yep. Right.

Torrey (18:44.312)
percent. Yeah, this is that time.

Alvin Owusu (18:55.0)
Not that we can do anything about it, but like if we're going to have that next crop when these guys hit 30 and start moving their way out like they're gonna start showing themselves now and I took Ben out because of his his high achievements at such a young age, right? Yes, he is he is pushing for He's trying to get to top three in the world top, you know to number one in the world We're talking about something a little bit. I'm gonna say more manageable but yeah, I think that's a

Torrey (18:55.063)
Yeah.

Torrey (19:03.917)
percent percent.

outlier, outlier status, for sure, for sure.

Torrey (19:14.861)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (19:22.806)
I think that's good. think we did a great job. I think that was exhaustive by nature. Yeah, my concerns are my concerns I think are valid, but I appreciate you talking them out with me. We will wrap it up here and then we'll come back and address the women's side, which is it's funny how it's such a different conversation when you go from the ATP to the WTA, especially at women's tennis on the American side. It's just a very, very different conversation.

Torrey (19:27.436)
Yeah, always is when you got that many players to consider, you know.

Torrey (19:36.205)
Yep, same.

Alvin Owusu (19:52.656)
But equally as interesting, so if you're listening to this one, come back for that one. Or maybe it's after the break, I don't know. You don't know what you're gonna get here on the Best of Three Podcast. But with that one, will say TH, thank you, and Best of Three, we are out.