WTA Doha 1000 Recap: Muchova Breaks Through, Mboko Arrives, and the Next Gen Is Here

Alvin Owusu (00:00.852)
And welcome to another edition of the best three podcasts. I'm Alvin that's Tori and we are, we're coming to you right after the women's WTA Doha 1000 has wrapped up. So we're to get into that today. maybe talk a little bit about, the men's 500s that are, wrapping up today. Today is Sunday. so we just got Rotterdam just finished up as well. And then, Dallas will be finishing up later on today. but, first and foremost TH. How you feeling?

Torrey Hawkins (00:28.869)
I'm good Alvin, how you feeling?

Alvin Owusu (00:30.402)
I'm feeling, I'm feeling really good. feel like we haven't done a, a standard best of three, podcasts in a while. Australian open Grand slams tend to treat us a little differently. we, we present ourselves a little differently, but we are, we are here a standard, this week podcast.

Torrey Hawkins (00:49.083)
I caught up on my sleep from Australia, you know, within the last week or two, you know what I mean? So, yeah. I miss it, and I see it all at the same time, you know? Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (00:50.862)
Seriously, feeling human again. But yeah, so let's, mean, let's, all at same time, let's waste no time. mean, it's women wrapped up yesterday in Doha. Carolina Mojave took down Vicky Mboko, 6, 4, 7, 5 in the final of that event. This was a nice one for those of us who may be, you know, if you're at home working from home and it's a nice one to put on the background, it's got decent hours for us.

able to keep some eyes on some good tennis. I think some of the storylines to kind of cover, and obviously we're gonna talk about both Vicky and Carolina here primarily, but some of our top seeds bounced out a little early. Coco being one of them lost her first match to Cochieretto. Four and two. mean, Maria Saccarie took down Iga in three sets. Maria had a fantastic week.

I mean, question mark, is she back? I don't know. Maybe so.

Torrey Hawkins (01:51.141)
Yeah, certainly playing some good tennis, certainly playing some phenomenal tennis and Coach Areta is not to be denied. She had that big win. Didn't she beat JPEG at Wimby last year? that like coming out win?

Alvin Owusu (02:03.661)
I think that was her kind of like, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:07.423)
already played a solid match. certainly, she has that certain, I like your word, profile. She has that certain profile that can really do some nice things to players on, she attacks the second serve kind of like Jasmine.

Her countrywoman, she also she can tag from deep album. She can tag from different her for her smaller stature. She absolutely tags the ball and controls things very, very well. I like her. I like her game quite frankly plays and has good variety. You know what I mean? So she's a she's a tough match a very savvy player. I enjoy watching her play. Unfortunately, unfortunate for for Coco, but and JPEG both you can't you can't come at her traditionally. You know what I mean? You've got to kind of really know know how to play her and I felt like

Alvin Owusu (02:23.778)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (02:52.669)
that was something that I expect to see her being kind of a shark in the water, you know what mean? For a lot of these high level players, she's proved already she can beat top five level competition. It's only becoming more more evident. So when you go into a match against her, she has that belief factor now too. She'll be tough to beat.

Alvin Owusu (03:15.563)
Nice, yeah, I'm with you. I think the results kind of speak for themselves. I mean, it's not the Elizabeth Cochieretto podcast, but I think it's worth mentioning as we probably come back in a little bit to talk about, to probably talk about Coco a bit. I think it's probably more, it's probably more about her and less about Elizabeth right now. But, Jung Chen Wen also making her return, played some good tennis, her back in a, her back in a seven five in the third in the round of 16.

I just think it's kind of, you know, when the Avengers are returning, it's good to have them around and healthy. Yeah. And playing. So it's, it's great to have her back. And you also, you know, I watched, was watching that match and I was like, forgot how big she can hit the ball and how, like how big she is. She is another one of these pushing six foot can hit the big first serve, can absorb and return power as well. Like she is a, she is a match for someone like our back and a match for someone like.

Torrey Hawkins (03:50.715)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (04:14.413)
Like someone likes to have a leka, so it's it's just nice to have her back have her back in the fold

Torrey Hawkins (04:19.483)
and perhaps made Rebacca play her better tennis midway through the tournament, which we've seen a few times as well. You heard it right here, that match may have been the tougher match, no shade and no offense on anybody else, but that match took a bit of starch out of the shirt for Rebacca. I didn't.

the ensuing matches were she was not as sharp as crisp nor as punishing off the ground. And just from the few highlights that I saw, I'll make a case for that. hats off to Queen for making that happen. But at the same time, it's a long year, we'll see. But to your point, it's always good to see.

post Australia, right? Where is everybody? Where, how was the dust settling? Is it settling, you know, for certain players? So it's, it's, good to see the shakeup that's happening right now.

Alvin Owusu (05:13.069)
Absolutely. But let's yeah, let's let's let's start with the winner of the event, Carolina Mojoba. You know, the announcer made a comment about it and you brought it up before we started before we started recording. It's been six years since she's won a WTA level event. She's obviously been a high performing player, made the semi finals of multiple Grand Slams in that same time span, but has not gotten over the hump of being the one holding the trophy at the end of the event.

Did you learn anything? mean, Carolina Mojave is my favorite women's tennis player to watch, like bar none. And I was a little skeptical. And I think in our year interview about, it wasn't whether or not she could perform. It's like a, healthy kind of thing. And, but up to that point, she had not been healthy very often. It seems like she's in a run of good health right now. So maybe she is healthy. And so.

If that's the case and this is what we get, I'm all for it. But did you learn anything necessarily new about Ms. Mahoba?

Torrey Hawkins (06:18.425)
I think the one thing that I did learn is I didn't realize it had been that long since she won a title. And it just shows me how confidence can play such a big part in the game. We look at Strokes album, look at head to heads, right? We look at, you know, and even in results, rankings, you know, the uptick, the downtick, you know what I mean, as far as where they are and when the year and so on and so forth. But

the bucket of X factor, right? Which I think confidence plays a large part. We don't always know what these players are dealing with on a personal level. How are they feeling the ball right now? How are they feeling about a win, about a loss? I lose to you seven, five and the third. All right? I can tell myself I played okay. I'll get it next time. I lose to you in straights three turns from now, right?

Alvin Owusu (06:58.413)
Absolutely.

Torrey Hawkins (07:15.961)
I feel like I'm losing ground with you, right? I lose to you three years in a row. At some point, I'm like, I was right there with Alvin three years ago, right? And so the point I'm getting at is that to see her continue to battle through minus that tells me I like her grit, like her mindset that she's continued to achieve and done some nice things in the interim. And I'm not gonna overplay the, know, the tournament as if that now solved everything,

it does show you how difficult it is to win titles at the tour level, right? It shows you how, you know, this could be a nice kickoff for her to kind of feel like, you know what, my confidence has taken a huge upshot going forward. So what did I see in the match? Nothing I haven't already seen.

from Carolina, but what I liked is I liked when you have an upstart, Vicky Mboko, who's not necessarily new to the tour, but clearly within the last year has really kind of announced her presence. She played about as savvy and about as patient and about as tactically smart.

as a player could and that just showed me the veteran nature of all of what she was bringing to the table, especially after beating Rebecca. You know, you had to think that this was this was Vicky show. You know what I mean? And I just liked how she she held serve. She she did all the things you're supposed to do to win tennis matches and win tennis tournaments. Held serve, didn't make a lot of errors, matched up. Even when, you know, when Victoria came with some huge, huge forehands and kind of went through her, she had this kind of sense like, OK,

I'll give you that. That's a good shot right there. I'm going to give you that one. But we're going to get back to this tactic because I don't think you can do that tactic the whole time. And it just seemed like I'm going to win the war of attrition with you and with that play. And I realized in rally three through five, know, in rally ball number three through five, you're probably going to tag one. And if I lay one up for you to tag, that's my fault. But if I can keep you moving and I can keep you, you know, going up more open stance cross court, that's where I got you.

Alvin Owusu (09:03.443)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (09:26.395)
and she played that tactic to a tee. Anytime you get stretched out one more time, I'm gonna float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. And she came in and stuck, I don't know how many volley winners at the right time. One was almost like a mini overhead that she jumped on and kind of smacked them. But I was impressed to see that her all court game really come to fruition. So what did I see? I saw a clean,

version, a tactical matchup of Carolina Mahova who played, thought very, smart and weathered the storm, weathered the occasional storm from Victoria. Tough match.

very well contested as the final should be. But I thought the all court nature of her game gave her the edge and she played well into that by continuing to keep Vicky on the move to be able to go behind her at times to be able to get her stretched out where she could float that ball up and give Carolina the edge. So it was a it's what she does so well, know, Carolina. So it was was it was really nice to see her bring that out in route to the final, not just not just Victoria play flat.

Alvin Owusu (10:33.546)
Yeah, and I think just to kind of go with that, when I think about when Carolina Mojave is kind of in her zone, when she, what she does well is she uses variety as a weapon, right? But in order to do that, she does need a little bit of time, right? And if you start to see the kind of, and I use the term a lot, the profile player that she will typically struggle with or bump up against,

it is those Avenger style players, those close to six footers, huge ground strokes where you can't necessarily squirrel up a, like really, yeah, exactly, they're just coming at her, coming at her, coming at her with a lot of pace. You can't really finesse and massage your way against a ball that's being hit at a certain quality level, especially the women like Sabalinka who are able to go big off of the first serve and then stay on you on both wings. Both wings.

Torrey Hawkins (11:30.159)
both.

Alvin Owusu (11:32.203)
And so they also add in someone like a Cocoa Golf who doesn't necessarily hit it as big, but can neutralize a lot of that variety with her her world-class movement, right? So like the drop shots don't work as well. She, you get Cocoa moving. She's like, please more. I'm better. I'm better in these corners than I am from the middle of the court. so I think that when you take a look at that profile that Carolina struggles with or bumps up against, you start to look at the players you played against.

she had a really good draw too. she had, for her matchup, right? And that's nothing, not her fault, right? She played Plitschkova in the third round when she would have scheduled to play, she would have played Anna Samova who retired in the third set against Plitschkova prior to that. So, you know, it's a tournament. It's not the end of the world. These things happen.

Torrey Hawkins (12:03.483)
For her matchup,

Torrey Hawkins (12:19.385)
and with a better back in the final had I not been for Vicky in the quarter.

Alvin Owusu (12:23.18)
Sure, and those are two players that you tend to see her be challenged by. At least give her that, be challenged by. to that, to her credit, you can only play who you play, right? And she was giving us kind of full flight, like doing all the things, all the things. And again, her poison that final, got up triple break point, I think to serve it out in the second set. Lost that game.

Torrey Hawkins (12:27.673)
I with.

Torrey Hawkins (12:52.623)
lost again.

Alvin Owusu (12:52.876)
got broken the very next game and then now she's back on serving and then but stayed calm, held, broke and you just kind of saw her like, know, she's had in those six years where she hasn't won a title, she's made many finals and hasn't been able to get through. You might expect her to be in a situation there where Vicky turns the tide and gets this into a third set, but no, Carolina stayed tough and I mean, it was great to see and obviously if she's healthy,

Torrey Hawkins (12:57.627)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (13:14.491)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (13:21.772)
and she's playing, she's a top 10 player all day. I mean, they're gonna only be 10 in the top 10 and Vicky is now one of them as well. Yeah, yeah, mean, Carolina, bravo, hats off, we're all ecstatic about that. We're gonna change gears here and talk about Vicky a little bit. Vicky, she played some of my favorite matches in this tournament, but I also realized that these matches kind of are very,

Torrey Hawkins (13:29.797)
Yeah, great time for her.

Alvin Owusu (13:51.667)
She plays a lot of these types of matches where she gets into it with big hitters and ends up like it's a slow start and then she comes back in the second set and then she gets a hold of it the third set, almost war of attrition. when you're watching Victoria Mboko play tennis, what jumps off the screen to you as a, if we'll put this into a shield and sword, like what is her, like why is she able to win matches? Like what does she bring to the court every single time?

Torrey Hawkins (14:07.483)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (14:20.286)
and what does she do well to neutralize some other plays. And we're gonna kind of get into this about like, where do we think like, think effectively what is her highest? Like, where do we think her high end could be? But why has she been so successful on the tour in less than a year full time on the women's tour?

Torrey Hawkins (14:37.077)
I'm going to paint a macro level that I'm going to come back and paint X's and O's. Number one. and I remember talking to some, a lot of coaches and players before when, you know, I some players that were out on the tour and they kept making this point. They, they're new. There's not a lot of matches or a lot of scouting report on this player yet. while it's been a year, year and some change still hasn't been that long that you've played.

Alvin Owusu (14:40.577)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (15:07.419)
and Boko to have any level of true database on how to play her. So that's a big thing first. She's just now, if you think about it, I've been just now kind of making the runs where of the top 50 players were just now at a point numerically speaking where she's been able to play, you know, 60, 70 % of the top 50, right? Because just

Alvin Owusu (15:33.589)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (15:33.787)
how the tennis has panned out. Whereas she had been playing for four years, there's a good chance she's played everybody at least three or four times, right? There's still some matchups. This may be their second matchup, their third, their first. So that's number one. The scouting report on her and how they specifically match up is still very thin. Any young player will have that advantage for a certain length of time. That's an overview. So appreciate the girl's still 19. You know, she's still playing some phenomenal tennis, by the way.

Alvin Owusu (15:59.453)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (16:03.605)
Well, let's put it into context. Last year at this time, she was playing the Roam 75, like 75k.

Torrey Hawkins (16:10.511)
Right. And a year before that, may have still been playing some junior slams. I mean, my point being, this is, we're talking warp speed. We're talking, and every time it happens, it happens with Coco, it happens with Mira, it's happening now with Ivo Jovovich. We tend to think this is normal. This is not normal. This is the 100 % exception. Unfortunately, that most tennis parents and maybe even some juniors would like to have.

Alvin Owusu (16:15.379)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (16:35.131)
be their future, but this is actually way more the exception than the norm. So I just want to paint that picture, number one, that she's that young for this to be happening. She's that young to be basically warp speed travel through the top thousand of women's tennis, let alone the top hundred, let alone the top 10 now, right? A year and some change later. So we have to understand that and give mad props.

Alvin Owusu (16:52.864)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:01.787)
So you have a ton of this confidence. And we talked about Mojova not winning a title in six years. This young lady's won a couple of titles within less than 18 months. So there's a lot of momentum going through this. There's a lot of things going through. And she had a banner, absolute banner tournament, even though she came with, edged out by Carolian in this final. Vicky, now coming down to more of a granular level, Vicky has speed, perhaps, and I'll say it.

perhaps even a tad faster than Coco. And she's a similar mover, very fast. Sometimes she even overruns balls. mean, it's what's kind of funny when I watch her sometimes. She actually overruns some forehands. But hits a bigger forehand when she's on the move, where Coco tends to use your pace against you or roll a little bit when she gets out wide in the wings, hoping you go back to her backhand. Vicki doesn't mind getting two more forehands, and she will clock the ball.

So it's almost like her point gets better when there's pace on it. And it's really, and she, and she hits it clean cross like a Rebecca and I like it like a Mojave. She can strike it almost mid racket, not necessarily even at the tip. She will strike it so big and so fat that she catches all of it. She had a lot of what I call, you know, what I call winners when the person's caught flat footed, you know? So when you had a ball like that, that ball,

Alvin Owusu (18:02.793)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (18:29.531)
has such pace on it and to some degree, you didn't know where she was gonna go with it, that that's a tough ball to handle. And if you have, if you average two or three of those a set, you're hitting the ball pretty well. If you average five to six or more, you got a big forehand. So if you do 15 plus in a match, buddy, you you're hitting the ball that people have to take notice of and have to say, I gotta change tactics against you because that's a ball you have all day.

And I think that's the other part of it is that her speed is there. Her serve is very underrated, especially the first serve on the due side. And I feel like her movement, she is a very much the counter, what I used to call my counterpunisher. She can move, she can hurt you, and she has a pretty good form on her own right when she's at a standstill. So there's a lot there. A lot of the better, as you call the Avengers, they are first serve, first strike.

what we call in tennis serve plus one, they are serve plus two, right? So their first three balls off the rip are just, wow, blitzkrieg. mean, just handle it or not, you're not gonna get in the air. Vicki to me is ball three through five, ball three through six. She is extremely dangerous. Not a bad serve, they're gonna be wrong. Just maybe not as big or as strong. She's not as tall, right, as some of other players. And can absolutely counter for those two or three shots.

Alvin Owusu (19:29.013)
Right. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (19:54.681)
but now you start getting in the ball three through five, three through six, that's her wheelhouse. If she can be able to move, strike, move, counter, move, strike, strike, boom. That's a Vicky and Boko rally right there. And she really likes that. She likes to move. She likes to have the ability to let her athleticism and her power let her take some things. I saw it a bit in the match. I forgot who she lost to in Australia. But the player went hard middle a lot on her and it didn't let her.

have the same freedom on the wings to kind of do what she was wanting to do.

Alvin Owusu (20:26.155)
She lost to think Sabalinka in Austria because she beat Towson and then played Sabalinka right after that.

Torrey Hawkins (20:31.643)
And in the Towson match, Towson, who hits a huge ball, actually out hit her. I think she was down quite a bit in the second set, ended up coming back and then pushed that match three sets, but I'm mistaken. But you could see Sabalinka watch the tape like, okay, I see. She could hurt me on that same ball in the corner. But if I drill that same ball middle, she might A, overrun or B, be forced to go back cross, ain't much room left. And she'll miss that ball either net or wide.

because that same ball that she's almost early on will now go wide instead of back cross court against me. And that's a tactic that I saw Mojova employed a little bit as well with a handful of rows. It was just kind of hard middle, hard middle. Now I'll take you wide. And I think that's a good play against a really athletic player instead of going behind him because you can't go behind a player that is that fast and hurts you. But you go more hard middle and now that player is a little more handcuffed a little bit.

Alvin Owusu (21:20.714)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (21:25.599)
And she's not a natural dictator of play either, like to your point, like she is, one, she's not as big as you think, she's not as big stature from a stature standpoint as the ball she hits. She's only 5'8", like for, when you kind of think about that and go, like Coco's 5'10", I have 11, and Ega is about, Ega's probably closer to 5'9", which is, we're talking about obviously inches here, small amounts, but.

Torrey Hawkins (21:28.475)
100%.

Torrey Hawkins (21:35.099)
Right? Right? Right?

Torrey Hawkins (21:44.111)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (21:52.849)
She hits the backhand, especially the backhand, she hits the backhand so big for someone who is not that big, but you can, again, to your point, if you go through the middle, especially hard through the middle, one, she doesn't have anywhere to go with that ball. You put her in a position where she can't really create inside out like your Rabakhanas, like your Sabalinkas can. This is where Ega sometimes gets a little caught because she wants to be able to, but it is not natural for her.

to dictate inside moving out towards the corners. And I will say, I'll put her, put Victoria Mboko's open stance backhand in the Louvre. That thing is perfect. Perfect. The balance, I mean, she is on a, she is on a skateboard just yanking the rope out there. I'm like, I could watch her hit that shot all day. It's...

Torrey Hawkins (22:44.485)
She hit some of them against Rebacca. She hit one open stance down the line that was straight as a string. I was like, wow. Speaking quick about that Rebacca in a match. Rebacca has a tendency to go cross court all the time. Step ups cross, hard balls cross, defending balls cross. First balls cross, mean, it just, she almost is cross court by default. There were points at which.

If there was a half a second to get a jump, Vicki jumped across like I know where it's going and actually hurt her off that cross court ball either side. And I feel like it was almost a tactical error. You you almost have to go back in and reprogram Elena and the, okay, this time you have to go lie. And Vicki got so many, you know, we call those points steals, right? She got so many steals in points where she was.

Alvin Owusu (23:33.618)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (23:41.723)
technically a bit behind or on the run, but because she had a jump on where the ball was going, she was able to steal those points from Milano over back and up because of that speed and the ability to counterpunish off that ball. So just a quick line where I thought Mohova did a good job of saying, okay, got it. And now you get that player of a few balls, six feet, either side of the middle, right? That middle slash middle cross. And now buddy,

You're not gonna move to your right on the deuce and hit a backhand inside out on purpose. You're not gonna, you don't have enough time to hit an inside out or inside on the forehand. That makes sense to move around. The ball's too big. And then there's that barrage. And I thought Mahova did a good job, and what she does normally, of creating pace, creating depth. And then she'll yank you back to either side, side of the X she wants to go to. And then at that point, she knows the next ball she runs you, you're gonna have to slice.

Alvin Owusu (24:30.313)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (24:35.951)
because every counterpunisher gambles with time. And so when you gamble with time, you're gonna go rip, rip, third ball, if it's not a hard slice can opener, you choose to rip one more, well now you're out of time. So if you get that next ball, it's definitely a float, if you get there at all. And that's when Mahova comes in with you know, Muhammad Ali, you know, float and sting, bam. And I think that's something that she's smart enough to know. And I think to Mahova's detriment at times,

She wants to slow it back down to maintain that pace that she likes. And you know, the Avengers types don't typically give her that amount of time. So it's funny, that's where the game of the matchups come down to. And I feel as much as anything Alvin, the time is a huge component in these profiles to be able to understand how well they deal with it, how well they counter it, how well they.

handle and choose to go big or not big with the amount of they have. And again, it's a wonderful battle of increments, right? But that's really where, depending on the day and the surface, that amount of time gamble, if you will, plays out.

Alvin Owusu (25:50.227)
Yeah, and this, the, the Rebecca and Boko matchup is a really interesting one because they kind of force the other. It's one of those perfect like tennis matchups where their game style is just kind of meld into one another. Like Rebecca wants to, like I said, go hard cross a lot, but that goes into Vicky strength, which is moving and dealing with pace in the corner. So it's a, it is a, who can execute what they want to do better.

slightly who's gonna serve a little bit better that day. Vicki is not afraid of anybody's second serve. She gets up inside the court to take second serves like it's juniors. Like she's like, I'm standing five feet inside the court on the second serve. I don't care who's over there. I'm going short backswing. I'm slapping the crap out of this ball. it's really interesting. Considering Vicki's been on tour, I would say effectively since Miami of last year really.

Torrey Hawkins (26:32.901)
Yep. Right.

Alvin Owusu (26:48.35)
probably more effectively since French opened up last year. She's played Rebecca four times. And the first time they played was in DC last year and I was there. sat three rows back and I watched the entire match and I was just like, this is a really, really interesting matchup because Rebecca comes out guns blazing, that's a lot of pace, like Vicki's dealing with a lot, but then she neutralized and made Rebecca work for it.

a few tournaments later they play again in Montreal and then Vicky takes her out 7-6 in the third. yeah, then we're back in the Beatser, comes back in Beatser in Japan later on in the fall and then now Vicky wins here in the desert. it's a, this is a really, really interesting matchup. I don't think it's going anywhere because both ladies tend to, looks like they both tend to make the latter end of events. So this is, this is one, it's a little bit of a rivalry. mean,

Torrey Hawkins (27:19.259)
I had a f***ing week that week, didn't see.

Torrey Hawkins (27:40.559)
New level.

Yeah, for sure.

Alvin Owusu (27:44.617)
And I have things I've noticed in Vicky like in the last few months is, mean, you can, you think about it, or can picture that smile. She's like, you know, lit up being on the court. She was about the, she was about the business this week. There was no, there was a smiling. She was just there like a head down the match against Andreva. There not much smiling, the match goes her back and not much smiling. She was dead set pissed after she lost to Mahova. Like the, trophy ceremony was, I mean,

Torrey Hawkins (27:54.863)
Yeah, little kiddo.

Torrey Hawkins (27:59.856)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (28:13.384)
You were, you were a little salty before we got on this morning. She was salty in that, in that, trophy presentation. So it's, she's coming of age right in front of our eyes. Top 10 player come, come Monday. That's a big deal.

Torrey Hawkins (28:16.123)
So.

Torrey Hawkins (28:29.947)
and who's she pushing out, That was my question to you. There's a couple people getting pushed, because Mahal was gonna be top 10 now too, correct?

Alvin Owusu (28:36.122)
It's, think Mojoba

Torrey Hawkins (28:39.707)
Cool, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (28:52.671)
Yeah. Right. But my point is when you say somebody's pushing in, somebody's getting pushed out and my point is, and so now that top 10 buddy, it's potent. And Queen Wynn is not yet a back full. think she's still on the protected, right? So she's, she's still good. You know, so she was, was in five when she, when she, when she went out, right? When she four or five at the time. mean, when she

Alvin Owusu (28:59.018)
That's true.

Alvin Owusu (29:09.015)
she's gotta be, yeah. Sitting at 26, I don't know how much protection she needs, but yeah.

Alvin Owusu (29:17.514)
She was half 10, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (29:18.907)
No, she's tempting. I think I thought it was five or six. I mean, as far as the ranking. So not that she'll get in off number five. But my point is that she'll she's she's clearly missing from the top 10. That's what I'm saying. It wasn't like, you know, she snuck in there and kind of snuck out. And, you know, she was there for a while. Top five, you know, inching up going three with Sabalinka. So she was up there with that wrestler before she got hurt. I want to say, wasn't it wasn't Indian Wells of last year? I want to say that was the year.

Alvin Owusu (29:30.589)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (29:47.769)
right before she had took that injury in because she didn't play either. She didn't play two of the slams last year.

Alvin Owusu (29:52.862)
Yeah, she missed Wimbledon and US Open. She played the French Open, because I remember she beat Sabalinka right before French Open. I think it was Rome. She beat Sabalinka and that was a big deal for her. She had never beaten Sabalinka before. And then I think she played in the French Open and then that might have been, that might have been it. That might have been it. She played, she did play, sorry, she did play Wimbledon. So she lost to Sabalinka, rolling the arrows.

Torrey Hawkins (30:13.999)
Madam Mayor.

Torrey Hawkins (30:19.066)
Okay.

Alvin Owusu (30:22.441)
played, I guess that would have been the Queens Club event, lost to Anna Samova, then lost the first round to Wimbledon and didn't play again until October. And then this this past week. yeah, it's maybe she missed Australia last year. But anyways, regardless, it's not the Queen to win show. But it's good to have her. It's good to have her back. I just want to kind of switch gears a little bit here. Because along with this and the the imboko of things, she played a really tough match against Mira Andreva.

Torrey Hawkins (30:40.699)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (30:53.889)
It's kind of odd. She's older than Mira. You wouldn't think that because Mira's been on tour now for almost, it feels like three full years. But Victoria is older than Mira. And then you add in someone like Aniva Jovic. Victoria is 19, Mira is 18, Eva's 18. I mean, hell, Cocoa's only 21. This in itself is a cohort.

Torrey Hawkins (31:20.078)
100%. The screen ages that you've got three screen ages on the, as you call it on the trot. But I'm also gonna mention at this point when they are quote unquote, you know, announcing their presence, it doesn't matter, they're already here. I just continue to mention and this is not normal. This is a treat for all of us. This is phenomenal tennis and for them to be processing this at this speed.

at this level, this rate. this is darn near incredible. You don't have this happen that often, let alone two or three at a time. And so now as you are looking to me, what I like about it from a, just from a business standpoint and from a longevity standpoint, you know who your next several champions are going to be. They're already waiting in the wings and they're peeking off from the curtain like, is it my turn yet? You know what mean? Am I on next?

And because it is, you know, as Coco's commercial with New Balances, yeah, we got next, you know, buddy, you know, we got now, you know, we got the next court. And that you got several of them, Coco's not that much older, you know, you've got a few of them that are all pushing to get to that next echelon. And buddy, anybody over 25, 26, buddy, they are past nipping at your heels. They are swimming with you, if not past you, if you slip up. So I like what that...

I like that this upward pressure from these younger players are doing. And we made a comment, you asked me a few pods ago about, you worried about Amira Andreyev? And I'm like, no, absolutely not. She's still too young. anything, some of her successes happened a bit too early, in my opinion. And now she's still developing who she is. She's still developing as a person. She's still developing as a biologically and physically. She's still developing her getting a mind right.

Alvin Owusu (33:07.377)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (33:12.891)
You know, so, sometimes you don't, you they've had some success and you kind of where we, the tennis fan and, Jen Pop are so ready for that player to just take over and, buddy, this is not easy and it's not normal. allow them some time to mature, allow them the time to get out, to get their legs under them. This is gonna, it's gonna be a fun year. Now that we see them continuing to improve and gain that, that much needed confidence and maturity in these matches.

Alvin Owusu (33:38.698)
And I wanted to kind of double click on this because you just mentioned it and it got my brain kind of going from a business standpoint, right? So like I'm gonna open that up and like what does that actually mean? I think put it in present day terms as we look towards the next WTA Masters 1000 or WTA 1000 whatever, right? think if they're in Dubai now, I think maybe this week, both EGA and ARENA not participating, right?

That is a statement that they're both making about there's too much tennis. The demands are too high. The women are expected to play all 10 of the Masters 1000 events. I keep using the term Masters 1000. It's technically called something else, but the 1000 levels events, I think for them, their WTA rules state to be eligible for the bonuses of the year and so on and so forth. It's for all four of the slams, all 10 of the Masters and then six of the 17 500s. And when you start,

Torrey Hawkins (34:27.674)
on the floor.

Alvin Owusu (34:36.041)
talking about the ladies who are making deep runs at these events, like there's least very little time off, right? So, Arena has not played, she missed Doha, she's skipping Dubai, that's two out of the 10 that she's like, I'm not doing it. Eega played Doha right after Australia and then has decided to pull out of Dubai. Right, so why do I bring that up? I bring that up because from a business standpoint, right, terminal organizers, like I've lost my

number one and number two player in the world. Yeah, that's a that's a big deal. But that leaves an opportunity for players who are climbing up the rankings trying to build their profiles in the game. You're the your screen majors, right? You're you're in Boko's you're in Dreyva's you're Jovich's. Okay, maybe it's that primetime match. We don't have a Rin Asaba link to put on but you know what's a fun match like Eva Jovich against Amanda Anna Samova would be a fantastic match to put on on your

Torrey Hawkins (35:06.969)
Marquis.

Alvin Owusu (35:34.908)
on your your prime time match. So that allows for other players to then build their profile within the sport, which it's rising tides lifts lifts all boats here like the more the more attractive from a being well known popular within outside of tennis, these ladies can become individually, the more popular tennis becomes holistically. So but the the other side is they have to be ready from a

quality of tennis standpoint. So these women are producing high quality tennis. Boom. Now there's some, there's some opportunity for limelight. Boom. Put those two together. That is a win for, for the tour and for tennis on the whole. So I think we're going to be okay.

Torrey Hawkins (36:07.589)
Nah. Yup.

Torrey Hawkins (36:19.611)
Huge point, I think better than okay, because the vacuum is now gonna be filled with a lot of supercharged particles. You're talking about you've now given that vacuum, and I'm gonna use the term that more so than loss of marquee, you've now had an opening. You're not gonna, there's only one arena sabalinka, we understand that. There's only one Ivo Sviatik, we get that, Iga. We know there's only one Cocoa Golf. We understand all that, we get that, only one Atlanta or Bakina.

The fact that these players are beating these players, show or going three or beating, they are as good. Are they overall as polished, as well decorated? No, they haven't played as long yet. However, they are certainly competitive with in that same peer group as far as titles and what have you. You cannot replace the trophy case of an arena table link overnight.

Alvin Owusu (36:51.303)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (37:17.53)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (37:18.287)
years as it's taken her. So we're not here to ever see can replace Elena, we're back at a, and, who has come, this is not her second kind of go run at things at the highest level. You cannot replace, arena Sabalenka and nor, but here's the thing that vacuum is now being filled with a bunch of players that are saying we are as, don't sleep on us. We are as good. And when those players come back,

we will have our teeth cut on even better competition and it's gonna even be better. So I'm more worried about the older players that are kinda on the edge, your Svitolina's, your Bench's, your older ones that are kinda hanging in there, that are right there on that Mendoza because it's not getting any easier. And I'm really concerned for that.

that the players that right, that haven't yet made a true run into, they've always kind of lingered around that 15, that 12 through 20, that have had some good showings. You know, Towson's a good example of that, who was wanting to claw her way into the top 10. It's not getting any easier. It is not getting any easier. So if I'm a tournament organizer, it's not like I'm dropping down to a lady who's 61 or 75. I'm dropping down to a number.

who's now eight or a number or even a Caroline Mahova who was probably at a, what was she, probably 12 or 13, who's now 11. Right, so I'm not dropping down too many tiers and everybody that you've heard of, I heard a comment the other day watching the All-Star game and the commentator and one of the writers was speaking of some of the players in the slam dunk contest, unfortunately over the years have been.

Alvin Owusu (38:46.856)
15, 16, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (39:05.081)
He used the term some no names and he says, these guys are all phenomenal athletes. But he said, but they're not names you recognize. And he was saying that the slam dunk contest, unfortunately has lacked name recognition. So now you only know them from their prowess with the slam dunk contest. Some of them haven't even had a lot of playing time. And so I put that in the context of this conversation. You've heard of Vicky Mboko.

Alvin Owusu (39:27.622)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (39:33.017)
You've heard of Miro Andreeva. They have played a while now and even in their short career. And I think that's what I'm liking for the marketing standpoint. Add to that this one last piece, Alvin, that people don't always talk about. And they're only gonna get better. So it's not like they're finished, right? I just feel that's, we always talk about the age and like if they're so young. Yeah, age is one thing, but they are.

Alvin Owusu (39:51.984)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (40:03.119)
they are young and are getting better. The next time you see them, they're gonna have more skills. Next time you see them, they're gonna have this networked out. I firmly believe even Coco will come back with a better serve and a better forehand, 100%. And so now what does that do? She's even better. But she's even better now. She's retooled 2.0, 3.0 Coco will be an even better Coco and she will be facing players. She had to get that good because the other players were forcing her to get that good. And who wins?

everyone because the quality of product is just that much better and each match is contested. They don't need to go three out of five, you know, and I respect Craig. Craig, I you. I love you, buddy. They don't need to go three out of five because the contest of each round is going to get tougher for them. There will be more Serena Williams 20, 27 minute dispatch first round matches, you know, in the tour. Go ahead.

Alvin Owusu (40:41.372)
Yeah, you can miss me with that. We're not, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (40:50.108)
And I

Alvin Owusu (40:54.664)
Right. And I just want to go back to your point about like, you know, they are still getting better. We look at we look at Arenas, have a link as being the standard bearer right now for consistency at the top and women's tennis. She's 27 years old. She won her first Grand Slam three years ago. Twenty twenty three Australian Open was her first one. She was twenty four. She was twenty four. She was chasing EGA up until that point. Right. So I think it moves fast. It moves. Things happen.

Torrey Hawkins (41:02.917)
Yeah. Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (41:12.891)
Right?

Torrey Hawkins (41:21.147)
It does, man. It does.

Alvin Owusu (41:23.388)
Things, the scenario changes quickly and in three years from now, know, Vicki and Mira, we assume they'll be in the top five and they will be the ones challenging for Grand Slams at the ages of 21 and 22, right? And then who are the 18 year olds coming up behind them? Those 18 year olds are currently 15, right? So this is also a plug. Get a chance, go out and watch some high level juniors, go watch the Orange Bowl. Go to, if you're going to the US Open, take a look at the junior event while you're there.

Torrey Hawkins (41:38.949)
right?

Alvin Owusu (41:53.289)
do you want to get a look at what's coming in a, you know, next year or the two years after that, they're right there in front of you. These players don't come from nowhere. They come from, they come from somewhere and generally they're right here in front of your face. That's an aside, but yeah, this thing, this thing keeps moving, right? It just keeps moving and winning slams at 19 is not the norm anymore. That's, that's where a little bit removed from that. The women who are winning these slams, they all kind of have this profile. They're big.

Torrey Hawkins (42:01.829)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (42:22.6)
They move, they hit hard, they serve hard. And that's what it takes. So when you're talking about physical strength, it takes a while to build that into your, into your anatomy, right? It's hard to go from a, from a girl to a woman or from a boy to a man. You can't rush that. But as along the way, you can show some flashes of brilliance. And I think where, when you start watching, when Vicky versus Mira in the, I was around us, I don't remember what round that was.

Torrey Hawkins (42:32.571)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (42:38.011)
about that, but no,

Alvin Owusu (42:51.4)
maybe was the quarterfinals of this tournament. It was like, okay, I'm watching the future here. That was only the second time that they've played on the tour. But it was such a good match where you're like, wow, they're forcing the best out of each other. Mirror's got the whole, she's got the whole chef's tool bag here completely rolled out. I gotta use every single knife, every single fork. I didn't even.

I didn't even know I still had this knife. I gotta use this one too. And then Vicky's just like, I gotta play more offensive. Like I gotta play like the top end of my offensive spectrum to get through this woman. It's fun to watch. fun to, we don't just watch the Grand Slams, we watch the thousands because they're making adjustments coming out of the last Grand Slam and then going into the next one. Go ahead.

Torrey Hawkins (43:19.781)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (43:48.165)
Do you, do you think the...

Torrey Hawkins (43:55.899)
Alcáraz and Center of Things who have been on their own self-proclaimed boycott, we're gonna call it girlcott, boycott, of the other tournaments is having an effect on EGAA Arena and others saying, you know what, missing out on all that, it's too much tennis, my career is more important than that bonus pool, okay? Question A.

question be related.

Should the tour acquiesce and change some of these rules for the betterment of the longevity of the year, almost in the sense of, should you get to said rounds, you are exempt for the next week, two weeks and such to incentivize players to do better and because it's basically they're playing less volume, right? And while that might...

hurt the occasional.

immediately following tournament, there's a good chance you weren't gonna get that finalist and that champion anyway. Let's be honest. We're taking that almost in stride as if that was gonna happen. But my question is, should the tour, both tours, acquiesce and say, all right, players, we hear you, we hear you. We're going to keep within our confines. The bonus pool will be affected. We can't give you that, can't have you cake and eat it too. However,

Torrey Hawkins (45:35.461)
We will provide exemptions for champions, finalists, semi-finalists for a week. And if you take the ding, you're gonna take it I know it's a deeper question. I only mentioned to say, should they? And that's my point from you from a tennis business, tennis broadcast. You've had a lot of broadcasting and TV, I should say, a programming experience more than most. What say you on that?

Alvin Owusu (45:59.794)
So let me take the first question. Are the top women taking cues from, in this instance, the top men? Is Sabalinka and Iga, are they taking a page from Yannick and Carlos? I mean, absolutely, and I think Irina has said it as much. I need to start looking at what these guys are doing because there's too much, there are too many demands, right? And so for them, they have both, I guess,

Torrey Hawkins (46:11.3)
Eager.

Alvin Owusu (46:29.797)
of these four players, the two top men and then the two top women currently, have identified that the slams are the most important things. And I need to do what I need to do in order to prepare myself to perform at the slams, which is generally, I need a warmup event going into the slam, generally, Australia with sanding. And then, you know, the Masters 1000s are there, that's kind of the next tier of events that we're gauging towards. I think...

So that's one, yes to your first question. Two, second question. I don't think that the tours necessarily need to make an adjustment and here's why. The policy is working for probably, of the top 20 players who benefit from this bonus pool, 50 players, whatever it is, I don't know the exact cutoff. We're talking about two out of the 50.

on each side that are choosing to go their own route. And that really is a reflection of their level of dominance, right? If you can continue to put yourselves in the last two rounds of a grand slam, every single grand slam, you are now, not only one, are you making so much money that getting a ding from the bonus pool is not gonna hurt you that much, right? You have to be,

preparing to be in the last two rounds of a Grand Slam. And there is a very, a two round difference, making the final versus losing in the quarters of a Grand Slam is four days difference, right? Right, that, from the front end, right? It could be five days difference. So that's a big deal. Like someone like a Amanda Anisimova loses in the quarterfinals of the Australian Open, she now almost has a full week more rest than

Torrey Hawkins (48:05.701)
big or right sometimes longer.

Alvin Owusu (48:24.549)
Arena Sabalenko who lost in the finals, right? So now when you're talking about going to Doha, which is the next event, it starts, Amanda won't have to play until the third day of that event. She's got almost 10 days off between events. That's probably it. And she only played four matches to begin with, pardon me, five matches to begin with. That's like, that's probably a pretty good role for her, okay? Play a warm up event, come to Australia, play five matches over.

Torrey Hawkins (48:35.419)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (48:52.101)
At that point, 10 days, right? Every two days she's playing, and then now she gets 10 days off in competition before she plays another match. That looks, she might have played the exact same schedule as, let's say, Iga or Rebacca. I think Rebacca was probably a better use case because she made the final of Australia, also played a warmup event, and then showed up in Doha, but she had 10 days in between, right? That's a big deal.

Torrey Hawkins (49:13.499)
And the question then becomes, should she have?

Alvin Owusu (49:19.274)
Uh, is 10 days too many? Is that what you were saying?

Torrey Hawkins (49:22.083)
should have back and have even played this event. You know, I guess what I'm saying is that, and there's my devil's advocate. Right.

Alvin Owusu (49:24.537)
Right, that's your, there's your, well she hasn't, yeah she hasn't probably been consistently, like mean, Arena has made the finals, she made the finals or semi-finals of five, six straight Grand Slams, right? She's expecting to go deep, right? She's healthy, she's consistent. Okay, maybe Rebecca is not right back to that point yet. Pertentous is there, but we need to see as far as like can she hold up through the course of the year. So for her, she's still trying to make a lot of money, right? She doesn't have the Gucci deal.

arena does. There's levels to this, right? She's not getting invited to play exhibitions in different places to make up for it, right? So that's the part of it that is, I don't feel like they need to make an adjustment based on what would be net 4 % of people. Now also the last thing I'll get to, and I'll give it back to you, is that the women uniquely have a little bit of a squeeze here in the schedule where they come out at the Grand Slam and they have

Torrey Hawkins (49:58.61)
And it's a good point.

Torrey Hawkins (50:04.536)
yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (50:13.039)
on those exams.

Alvin Owusu (50:23.515)
back to back Masters 1000s and the men don't, right? The men don't have these two desert events. Their first 1000 isn't until Indian Wells first week of March. So there are a lot of 500s for them to choose from. Like Carlos played Rotterdam last year. He didn't play it this year. He's gonna play Doha instead, which is a week, I mean, where is he? There, the men in Doha this week? Yeah, it's a week later. So he's now not had to make any real changes. Like he's not, he hasn't lost anything, quote unquote lost anything yet.

He just swapped his 500s and got himself an extra week of rest. yeah, it's a, back to back 1000s right after the Grand Slam is tricky for the women.

Torrey Hawkins (51:03.323)
Which seems open if you're a tournament director slash investment group wanting to fill in that quote unquote schedule. I just feel like at some point you gotta look at it. A quick question back, should Rebecca have played or should she have taken the rest?

Alvin Owusu (51:23.11)
That's a

Torrey Hawkins (51:23.225)
She looked flat, Alvin. She looked flat toward the end. She darned her look tired. I'm not going to say it.

Alvin Owusu (51:27.235)
Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting one. I don't know, mean, we're having a different conversation, I think, if she's able to hold it together in that match against Victoria. I mean, she lost it in three sets, right? I don't remember she had any opportunities to serve it out or not. I don't have the scores in front of me, but if she wins that match, are we concerned about it? Like, what is the expectation level?

Torrey Hawkins (51:56.055)
Here's my next question, because that was Morgan Fetan. I think she lost in the quarters, so she didn't even make it to the end the fourth. So number one, and as I said earlier, the Queen win match, I gassed her, mean, 100%. I mean, that was a knockdown drag out. Question I'm mentioning is, at some, this is more of follow up to my B question earlier, at what point will the tour suffer?

Alvin Owusu (52:00.816)
course, Tempukko is what it was, okay.

Torrey Hawkins (52:22.725)
from a massive number of pull-outs, withdrawals, injuries that will hurt their overall product as a result.

Alvin Owusu (52:35.62)
That's the, Eega pulling out of Dubai is noteworthy. Arena not playing both Desert 1000s is also noteworthy. If Rebacchina pulls out of this event, which I wouldn't be shocked if she did. Now granted it starts, I it already started, I have to look at the draw, but that's when you start to get a little concerned.

because they are, the women are put in a very precarious position with these back to back 1000s right after the Grand Slam. That's my biggest issue. It's not even really the back to back nature of the 1000s because that happens all year long, right? And you can, it's better to do it leading up to a slam. It kind of feels weird doing it right after a slam.

I wonder what, like the biggest loser here is your tournament organizers, right? You've paid this money to have this level of prestigious event, Masters 1000, in which the women are required, on paper, required to be there. And then they're not showing up. And they're not necessarily, they're not showing up because of, you know, any reason except for what the organizing body.

Torrey Hawkins (54:01.295)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (54:01.638)
has done to them from a calendar standpoint. Like, Arena's played this event, like, I think it's like eight years in a row or something like that. And then right now she's like, nah, I need the rest. I need the rest. I'm not coming over there.

Torrey Hawkins (54:09.103)
Right. That's which is what, was my point. She hadn't done this before to my recent memory and is the Carlos incentive thing. So here's what, you know, call it what you will. AI, AI assisted, you know, my search. There has been an observed increase in injuries and match retirements. Stress fractures and upper arm injuries has more than doubled in the last five years. And recent match a recent report highlighting seven

7.3 matches were affected. Now that's on a small 7.3 percent doesn't seem huge, but at the same time, what if the

What if the draw at a slam is affected by the, and I'm saying the marquee players in particular, is affected at a slam at the unfortunate improvement of a few 500s and three more, or in this case, two more 1000s. You're cutting off your proverbial nose to spite your proverbial face. So it, to me, it has a bit of a...

And again, I'm only playing Devil's advocate. I don't know the answer. I know you have better answer than I do, having worked in TV and the sports space. I only say at some point, you have to look at this. Last year's French was a big eye-opener for me in seeing so many injuries, so many retirements, so many withdrawals that I was like, wow, gotta look at this, guys. You do all this to improve your seating to have a better French.

You don't do this to spite the French. People are gonna tune into the French and they might tune into other events should the French be phenomenal. The French ended up working out okay. We had a great final. It was a phenomenal tournament. But it was carried by two guys who are saying, nah, we're good. We're not gonna play that one this time. We wanna keep ourselves fresh. Meanwhile, some of your higher end players who didn't play. You can look back to a lot of them that...

Alvin Owusu (56:01.178)
Heh.

Torrey Hawkins (56:16.019)
that had played a bevy of them in the whole, know, whole all nine or whatever of the, know, clay court lead ups going into the French had not had the rest. that's the only reason I mentioned. I don't have an answer. I'm not looking for one. I'm just asking at some point, I feel it becomes their burden, right, to protect these players. You're gonna get an injury. It's a sport. But at some point you need to make this, you gotta think about sustainability.

You know what I mean? And I'm with you. Don't change the rules for those two players. I get that. That two player, I think that's a great comment. At some point, you have to think about it, because it is, you're selling the calendars, which you're selling, but these players are not automatons. They're not robots that can heal themselves and just go into the lab and do a few tweaks and they're good to go. They need time to heal and some are, and not getting that time and kind of...

and having the constant flow of tournaments coming back makes it tough to even get back playing, let alone to play your best tennis throughout the year. that's, anyway, that was my point to you.

Alvin Owusu (57:23.76)
think it's a reflection of like, we've talked about like how disjointed professional tennis is. Like when you use they, you use where they would be better served to do X, and Z, it's like who is the they we're talking about? Because we have a lot of different entities who are incentivized in different ways, right? The Grand Slams are the Grand Slams. The Tours are running the rest of the events.

Right? But then the events themselves are their own little business units. like, and then the players are all independent contractors. It's so the whole, the whole, players, they're incentivized to make as much money as they can while they're playing tennis, the vast majority of them, right? The top, top ones are incentivized to stretch out their careers so that they can make high ends of money, like over, over time. Right. and then they, so they will.

Torrey Hawkins (58:04.027)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (58:20.038)
the top top players are more aligned with the grand slams. Everyone else is more aligned with the, I'm gonna play these four events before the grand slam. Cause I gotta get my points up as I can try to get seated and make money to support the team. And then like bring on more team members so I can try to push into the top 20. It's like everyone is even though we're all in the same tennis court at the same same facility, they're all playing different games out here. And the, a, from a tour standpoint, and this is like, they never say it and

Torrey Hawkins (58:41.819)
All right.

Alvin Owusu (58:47.878)
but I always hear, always view it the same way. The tours actually don't really care. I'm gonna say right now, I don't think the tours care that much about the players because the players are by nature replaceable. They just circulate through. You never really have, like every year there are new players coming in the top 100, there are people leaving. There are people coming in the top 50, there are people leaving. Last year, have Victoria Boko in the top 10, last year she wasn't in the top 100, right? This thing keeps on moving.

keeps on moving. So yeah, it's there's going to be 120 people in the draw. There's going to be 128. Someone's going to turn it.

Torrey Hawkins (59:18.939)
We're on the platform.

Torrey Hawkins (59:28.559)
Last question on the side of things. I felt, and I know you probably felt similar, this last year in football was the most enjoyable to watch because so many games were so fiercely contested.

all the way through. I mean, you can say which one about Super Bowl, even the Super Bowl was contested on a defensive side point. The playoffs were incredible to watch. The parody, after years of draft picks and things going this way and this way and that way and third have started to really, free agency, everything seems to have worked this year was as a very, very good product for the NFL. I'm taking that on one side.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:15.151)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:16.079)
This year, the tanking that's happening in the NBA seems to game the system a bit to me. It's starting to rear its ugly head to achieve said parody the other way, right? I'm not comparing the two. not giving the, think both have their own issues. I'm only mentioning from an entertainment situation. Alvin, are the, I'm gonna call you the CEO of the WTA.

What lessons from both do you take and do you think about as you're planning 2027 or beyond? What's a couple of things you're thinking about regarding what's working, what would it look like going forward? And you may go on a hundred different directions on this one, that's up to you. What do you take from either NFL and NBA as a...

law as a lead measure that you'd like to continue to get to your X goal and what do you look at as to what to be careful for that one of the tours, you know, that one of the other pro sports is having that, say, mm, gotta watch out for that with my tour. What say you?

Alvin Owusu (01:01:32.546)
Yeah. I almost wish I had some more up with her or heads up on this one, but let's, let's, if I'm thinking about the overall health of the WTA tour as a CEO of the WTA, there are a couple of things that I want to make sure that I'm kind of taking care of my, my, my foundation at the front of the game. The stars are going to be the stars, right?

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:38.413)
Sure, but you're the man.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:56.056)
your Sabalinkas and your Egas and your Amanda and Samovas and your so on and so forth, right? Those who are at the top of the game are gonna, they're gonna be fine and they're gonna like everything they do outside of the game to bring visibility to themselves is going to benefit the game itself. So I'm not actually too concerned about them at all. So anyone who's made a final of a Grand Slam in the last 18 months, thank you.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:21.445)
You're welcome.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:21.733)
Yeah, I'm good. I'm gonna continue. There's probably like two things I'm trying to do is be very keenly aware of the players that seem to matter. And this is the kind of the difference between our sport and team sports within a league. The NFL and the NBA can manufacture matchups. They create the schedule, right? They create the schedule. Like if I want...

OKC and San Antonio Spurs to play against each other on Christmas Day. I just make it happen. I just do that. Yeah, we're going to make that game happen. If I want Steph and LeBron to play on Easter, I just put it in the schedule. Right. So when people are looking, I making sure that they're looking at what I want them to look at. Right. From a tennis standpoint, I'm always going to have winners who are winning tournaments and people who are winning tournaments. If you show up on

on the television on Sunday or sat at women's final Saturday of Wimbledon. People in the U S are going to be watching because that's what they're watching right now. So whoever's there is there. That's fine. But as I'm trying to grow the base of players, I want more players to have more spotlight and we don't have control of that because we have random draws, right? So like if two players that could be the future of the WTA end up playing each other in the second round of an event.

And it's like, that's tough, can't do anything about that. But what I can do is to give them as much visibility as I can earlier in events. And that's by giving show courts to players, not necessarily reflective of their ranking, but reflective of like all of them as a brand. I think we have to be considering these players as brands. Someone like an Ivalice. Ivalice rates.

as a top 10 brand in the WTA, but she is not a top 10 player, right? But she brings eyes because of her personality and all that she has as a person, right? Combined with her tennis, that makes her a valuable brand that regardless of how high her ranking goes, I want people to get to know her because then I effectively want these people to do things like.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:39.909)
buy subscriptions to Tennis Channel Plus or Tennis TV, whatever it might be, wherever you are. I want you to come out to events. I want you to buy a stadium ticket as opposed to a grounds pass on day two of the event. And if I can put Ivelisse in the stadium, you'll buy a stadium pass as opposed to a grounds pass if I have her on court 17, as opposed to insert this American player because we're playing in America, that kind of thing.

And then one thing that I've been really happy about and I want to continue to see is making tennis events more of an event. It's not just about the tennis like More festival like and I think a lot of tournaments are leaning into that they they get doubts up and just wrapped up Our good friend and Asajia from grounds pass was there and I'm watching her videos and I was there last year They're making incremental improvements to that event from year one to year two to bring more people into the stadium make it more of a

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:17.967)
more profitable like you mentioned before.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:37.669)
almost like an F1 style or NASCAR style. you know, there's an infield, there's matches going on. I think bringing people in, very few, very few times do people come to tennis tournaments and go, that wasn't fun, right? Get them there. If you get them there, they will have fun. If they have fun, they will go home and watch. They'll go home and watch and realize, oh, there's other tournaments on, I just gotta pay, you know, $20 a month and I can watch all the tournaments and they're on all the time.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:51.055)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:02.501)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:06.373)
So that's how this thing built and I always push back against the tennis needs to do something to defend against the pickle balls of the world. And I'm like, I don't think so. I think tennis is fine. And if you wanna follow pickle ball as opposed to tennis, go, go. We'll find the people. Junior tennis is fine, which means if we don't have a problem getting people into the game, we gotta get them into being fans of the game.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:17.754)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:23.418)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:30.917)
Right.

being this game, yeah. That's That's, I'll be, you didn't know this album, but I've got a secret pathway to the CEO of WTA. I'll be passing your, I'll be passing your.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:34.809)
That's where I would lean in.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:46.093)
I've got thoughts. I've got thoughts. And when we have J.Y. Abone come on from Intense Tennis, I got thoughts for him too. I got thoughts on all these things. So many thoughts. So many thoughts. I think that's a good place to put a pen in it. We've been rolling for a while here. That was good. TH, we'll come back next week, probably talk a little bit about Dubai. think we've got a special guest coming on here soon. We'll let the people know about that when we need to the people know about that.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:51.963)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:15.588)
But until then, I'm Alvin, best story, best three, we are out.