WTA Finals Set: Rybakina’s Rise, Saudi Masters & Tiafoe’s Reset | Ep. 73

Alvin Owusu (00:00.814)
And welcome to another edition of the best of three podcast. I am Alvin that is Tory. And today we're to talk, we're going to look around the horn a little bit here, talk a little bit about this new masters 1000 event in Saudi Arabia. That's a, that's happening a little bit of the WTA finals are now set. then, Francis Tiaf was switching up his team, as well. So, before we get into that, just want to make sure to remind you guys, cause I've been told I'm supposed to do this. Make sure you subscribe like.

Follow, it helps us do what we do. Okay, that's now past this. TH, how you doing?

Torrey Hawkins (00:36.438)
I'm good, brother. I'm good. Very good. Always good to see you and to be seen. I feel like we're at that time of the year where, no offense to the other slams, the other 1000s and whatnot, I feel like we're kind of getting to the business end of the end of the year. You know what I mean? I feel like, at least on the WTA side, I feel like it's starting to really shape up nicely. I'm looking forward to next week's tennis.

Alvin Owusu (00:54.733)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (01:02.862)
Yeah, for sure. yeah. So, you know, we kind of talked about it. Actually, we talked about the order of topics on the rundown today, but, um, and we were gonna, we were gonna start with the ATP masters event being announced, uh, the new one popping up in Saudi Arabia. Um, but actually let's talk about WTA finals instead. Just throw you a little, throw you a little, uh, curve ball there. Um, so the, yeah, WTA finals. You did, you did, you, you, you, you did. It was that we were not going to do this, but we're to do it. We're going to do it anyways.

Torrey Hawkins (01:15.252)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:22.949)
Even better. I just talked it into existence, didn't I? Well, we're gonna do it now. We're gonna do it. Fair enough.

Alvin Owusu (01:31.91)
Now we're gonna do it, now we're gonna do it. So the WTA finals, top eight is set, right? So your Grand Slam winners this year, Irina Sabalenka, Coco Goff, Iga, Madison Keys, know, filled out by Jessica Bagula, Amanda Anasamova, who else is on my list here? Jessica, yeah, Bagula, Anasamova, Paolini, and then Elena Rabacchina clawed her way into this event, right? She was not sitting in the eighth position, she was sitting in nine.

Torrey Hawkins (02:01.738)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (02:01.774)
Mira Andrava had a slight lead on her in points and then Mira was not able to get into Tokyo. Apparently she had a bit of a visa issue, couldn't get it resolved because she didn't think she needed to play it. But it turned out she would have benefited to have played it and so it kind of gave Elena a little bit of a clear runway to play her way in. So she got to the semifinal of the event, that's what she needed to do. From a point standpoint, gets herself into the event.

Torrey Hawkins (02:12.617)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (02:17.909)
All right.

Alvin Owusu (02:31.438)
And you know, I'm big on let's make these year-end championships matter. But outside of them just mattering, like, there's a lot of money involved on the women's side compared to the other events that they, for the prize money of the other events. like, we're talking $335,000 just to show up, and then 350k a win in round robins, in the round robin rounds, and then five million to the winner-ish.

Torrey Hawkins (02:31.517)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (02:36.094)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (02:45.204)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (02:58.59)
for the winner. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (02:59.436)
and 1.2 to the finalists. So, those are real numbers. Those are very, very real numbers.

Torrey Hawkins (03:05.897)
Yeah, big, big, big clams and you're, you know, especially for the winner and that's, and as it should be, that's the year in championships. You've got, it's the, you know, it's the WTA finals. it should be this much. And, you know, as far as I'm concerned, it's.

Alvin Owusu (03:13.441)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (03:23.791)
It is the quintessential, you know, wrap up of the year. And as so, shouldn't be less than any of the bigger slams.

Alvin Owusu (03:32.302)
That makes sense to me. We often talk about equal prize money and parity amongst the two tours. The Grand Slams themselves do pay equal prize money and I think that's what gets the most attention and probably rightly so. But there are a lot of other incentivizations that the women don't have on the WTA tour that the men do have. And then there's also some discrepancy in prize money at the 500s and the 250s and whatnot.

I think it's something like Dubai, I think Mira Andreeva won Dubai, right? $600,000 if she wins Dubai. That's a Masters 1000 event for her. She shows up and wins one match. If she were able to get into this tournament and then win one match, she wins more money for that than she does for winning a Masters event. So like the whole thing, right? So it's a big deal and there's a lot of talk about.

Torrey Hawkins (04:15.049)
So.

Alvin Owusu (04:30.445)
you know, where the money flows in this game. And we do touch on it here a decent bit, but I wanted to, you know, because this is my personal, like I'm big on year-end championships. I didn't want to let this, like let it go because there was a lot of conversation around like, or back in going for it. And like she needs to, like she needs to, she could double her prize money on the year if she were to do well in this event. She had to get in first.

Torrey Hawkins (04:54.44)
Yeah. Yeah. And on the tennis side, Rebecca is more dangerous in my opinion than Mira is at this point in her career. This would have been a great tournament for Mira to get into and play, get a lot of experience. She'll be dangerous over the next three years. She's dangerous now. She, in my opinion, isn't a threat to any of the other seven, maybe with the exception of Jasmine, but

And I haven't seen any of the current headdress. I say that just off my off the top of a playing style, the matchups. But she's just not yet. In my opinion, she's still mature and she's still developing. She's still really just growing into her game and what she is. She's still young. So we're back. And on the other hand is a bit of a lightning rod. She's a complete disruptor on many levels. And I feel like she has the ability to go into this tournament.

she could knock off a couple of players in that round robin stage and get some confidence and knock off somebody else. And really, not that it worked out, not that it was meant to be this way, but the way that worked out. She really, in my opinion, has the better of the two, has a little better, I'm able to compete and perhaps take down one of these bigger names right now. And I think for the viewer and for the tennis, that was, I'm glad it worked out the way that it did.

Alvin Owusu (06:19.361)
Yeah, and especially with this being an indoor tournament, it's also happening in Saudi Arabia, indoors in Riyadh, believe. It's a big deal, it's big deal, and she could, I mean, feel like this is the Elena Rebacca story, right? I'm always upping Rebacca around here. I feel like she is somewhere third, fourth, maybe fifth best player in the world on her day, but on her day, she's one of like,

two players that can take the racket out of Irina Sabalinka's hands. And with Irina being the of the measuring stick that we judged the rest of tour against right now, like that's a big statement. Like she can put Irina on her ass and that's not something you can say about much of anyone right now except for maybe Anisimova on her best day. Yeah, yeah. it's...

Torrey Hawkins (06:55.187)
Sure. Sure.

Torrey Hawkins (07:03.218)
that's.

Yeah. On a good day. Sure. Yeah. It's better for us as the consumer slash tennis fan for sure. And I feel like the way that it worked out again, mayor's got many more WTA finals to reach and to get to, you know what mean? She'll I could see her winning her first slam the next two years. I really do. I think she could, she could continue to develop and she's going to be a player for the next five plus years easy. But for right now, for this year's edition.

I feel like Alana is just a, she's a really, I like what she brings to the table. I like the tennis she can play. I like her indoors. And quite frankly, it's a disruption that the other seven men I like her. They may not like her in that eight, but she, for the rest of us, it's a very, it's very good to have her with that in that quarterfinal slash group.

Alvin Owusu (07:49.739)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (08:00.064)
Yeah, you mentioned the indoor aspect of it and it's a slower indoor surface which is like almost right of a parallel, medium pace, it's not slow, it's medium pace but it's not like lightning fast or anything. What's your take on indoor tennis like maybe from both sides like as an exist, it exists on the tour but it is the only surface that does not have a grand slam attributed to it and then from a fan standpoint, like a spectator standpoint like.

Torrey Hawkins (08:08.241)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (08:23.077)
Right. Right.

Alvin Owusu (08:28.755)
I have my personal thoughts on going to indoor events, but what say you?

Torrey Hawkins (08:35.896)
I think that indoors is to me the best format period for tennis. always have Wimbledon the grass is the most history. has the, it's the longest standing. We get it. I understand it. And it's unfortunate that it's only three to four weeks of the year. You know what mean? The tour used to be 90 % clay back in the day. Right. And I feel like

that has now kind of shrunk and it's now only, you know, it's really, it's only one slam, a good chunk of the year still, mind you, but, and obviously, you know, Australia has changed services two or three times in the last 30, 40 years, depending on various things. So even their current version now it's kind of a hardcore, but not true. Even back to the rebound days back, way back, they were using recycled materials and the balls had a little bit of a more of a bounce way back in the day.

I think indoors is the most consistent. It's the most pure. It's the most controlled. And the irony, right? The irony is there's an indoor element, right? To almost all the slabs, except for the French, that has an indoor, right? Which kind of controls the environment. It's just the surface that stays the same. And I think the wind, not being there, the lights.

Alvin Owusu (09:46.817)
Yeah, that's true. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (10:00.402)
some of these stadiums are massive, Alvin, they might as well be outside. I mean, as far as lights on a thing, the ceiling's definitely not a thing. know what mean? No one's hitting the ball to the roof of Ash, you know, when the roof is covered. So that's not a thing. not your typical pitched roof, you know, indoor barn, you know, at your local club up north. So I say it to say, I think it's the best surface with all the controllables.

Alvin Owusu (10:12.362)
Right, yeah, yeah, seriously.

Torrey Hawkins (10:29.495)
I love that all these tournaments have now invested on that. I was at the Open several years when the rain wrecked havoc on the schedule, wrecked on everything else. And so I think it was a great investment for their future. They finally bit the bullet on that. But as a fan and as a coach, small bit as a player, I feel like it's the best surface. It's guaranteed. You know what you're going to get. Right. And for the pure striker, buddy, bring it. And I think that's what I'm kind of glad that the surface is on.

Alvin Owusu (10:36.022)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (10:53.098)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (10:59.524)
hard indoor at the end of the year, not only for weather reasons, also for the controllables.

Alvin Owusu (11:04.736)
Gotcha, you know, I'm a, so it's almost like tennis in a test tube, right? Like it is, everything is very dependable in an indoor court. There's never really issues with, yeah, obviously wind, right? Your bounces are gonna be pretty true, you know, depending on the condition of the particular indoor court. Obviously from a teaching standpoint, Teaching indoors, like, it's great. just, everything, even the sound that the ball makes indoors, I like.

Torrey Hawkins (11:14.71)
nope.

Torrey Hawkins (11:28.996)
come on.

Torrey Hawkins (11:33.776)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (11:34.753)
But, but, from a what is tennis, like tennis is game of adaptation, right? So it's not just a surface thing, it is adapting to the wind, adapting to the sun, may it change on the side that you're on as you switch. So that's what's a little, there's a certain sterile-ness, is it sterile-ness or sterility, I'm not quite sure, of the indoor that like, it reminds me of the smell of opening a can of tennis balls, but like that is.

Torrey Hawkins (11:41.648)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (11:49.475)
No. No.

Torrey Hawkins (12:03.138)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (12:05.216)
That's that is a brief smell. Like tennis is really gritty, know, beat up balls and sometimes clay on them. So I.

Torrey Hawkins (12:10.33)
Yeah. And we have that. And to your point, that's why I like this tournament being what it is in that controlled environment. You have had your clay. You have had your grass. You have had your Australia. You have had your US Open. Now, if we're going to have to have a tournament this time of the year, and the Maladi's tournaments are obviously on the above this part of the equator. You're going to have to play it in

this time of the year, temp are controlled, lighting's controlled, elements controlled. We're not bringing you here to hope that we get this term in it. Not that it rains, I can't think it rains too much in my area, but the fact of the matter is, I like that it's that controlled. It's gonna be a newer core, you gotta think, and probably gonna be on the slower side. And I just feel like over that course of time, I think it's gonna be a great test of these eight players' ability to adjust to each other this time of the year.

One thing that I would throw in there, and this is just, and I know they've thought about it, and I don't say this as a bad thing, and I'm certainly not knocking Madison. It's tough that the Grand Slam winner of Australia, it has now been nine months, darn near a year, before that, when that player played some of their best tennis. Now, you could make two arguments to say,

several arguments, but the two I'll make right now, that that player could be back on the upswing, getting back ready, bouncing things out, they're healthy, they're healed, whatever the case may be. You could also say, where has she been for the last nine months? And is that a relevant top eight of right now for the tennis or playing? What say you?

Alvin Owusu (13:58.751)
Yeah, I'm with you there. It's an interesting one because this happened last year as well. Like if you get a Grand Slam winner that just kinda like pops, not necessarily out of nowhere, but out of nowhere, right? So Madison wins her first Grand Slam at the Australian Open this year. Last year, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (14:15.703)
Well deserved and phenomenal play and I'm still on cloud nine for her. I just want to make sure I make that point.

Alvin Owusu (14:24.618)
Yeah, it is interesting. Like someone mentioned that like I think Martina Navratilova wrote something recently and talking about how she was crying when Madison won that. And I was like, wow, I had the exact same reaction as well. So that's like, that's kind of cool that everyone feels the same way about Madison. But she's the example from this year. Last year, Barbara Krzikova won Wimbledon and then obviously automatically qualified in. You've had countless US Open winners, Bianca Andrescu, Emurata Kanu.

Torrey Hawkins (14:37.624)
Ha ha ha.

For sure.

Alvin Owusu (14:54.582)
who have won that Grand Slam and then automatically qualified into the event. you know, I think it's nice that you get something for winning a slam. I think more times than not, you're still getting the best eight players. If you can win a Grand Slam in a season, like you deserve all the things. You deserve the spot, you deserve the rankings down, like points, the points rain down on you, you deserve the money, take it all.

Torrey Hawkins (15:11.042)
Yeah, sure.

Alvin Owusu (15:23.806)
It all happens in this year. It's a big deal. But then Madison's first on the chopping block of people who have to defend points next year as well. it's, the season's almost over. This tournament starts, I think on November 1st, by the 6th it's done, women shut it down and then come back and we see them again in January and it's effectively a fresh light. So I don't have a problem with it because usually it is justified. You don't have a lot of Grand Slam winners that

Torrey Hawkins (15:24.046)
100%. It's a big deal. Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (15:53.773)
Outside of the the two examples I gave Barbara is a second time grand slam winner So like she's not really you know, I'm not I'm not putting her in that group and she's she had been a perennial top ten for the last few years, but Luckily for us we don't get a lot of players to You know get to the top five off of a grandson win and then disappear it so

Torrey Hawkins (15:59.521)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (16:15.926)
Right. And let's face it, in some years, Alvin, and you know this to be true, it's been the same person who's won two or more. So in certain points, you have to kind of come down the list a bit more. So my only thing is, that was all I was getting at, was that what's our feeling about that first slam? Is it or does it have the potential? And I'm not saying it has in recent history, and certainly not saying that for Madison. Does it have the potential of knocking out

Alvin Owusu (16:24.212)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (16:44.108)
or three players that are on their rise toward this part of the year because of the way they're taking points in the rolling year that it is. And I think that was one of my questions. Madison just happens to be the person who won the slam the farthest out, which is why I brought her up.

Alvin Owusu (16:54.112)
Yeah, it-

Alvin Owusu (17:00.792)
And probably not a, probably a really good example for your question because she hasn't had the best results, you know, in the back end of this year. Like her results are actually very much so, you know, even Australia in open with standing, they're all pretty front loaded. you know, she won the warmup event, won Australia quarterfinals, quarterfinals or semifinal Indian Wells, and then kind of had a typical Madison year since then in a typical year doesn't get you into WTA finals. So,

Torrey Hawkins (17:14.295)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (17:28.96)
Yeah, it's an interesting one, but I think that...

Torrey Hawkins (17:31.733)
My point, and I just want to make sure, is there anyone playing right now outside of these eight? Mira, Mira we already talked about. We know she was right there.

Alvin Owusu (17:44.054)
Similar boat though, like she's kind of tailed off towards the back of the her. Her results are also front loaded from this season. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (17:46.646)
Pat held off too, right? So thank you, thank you. So my point is she was actually very similar. Is there, and I'm not sure I haven't seen the list past number nine. Is there anybody, Vicki, Nick Bowe, there, who's the other young lady that had a strong year, did some nice things? Who else are we missing? I guess is my point that you might, Mohova, is there anybody else we're looking at?

Alvin Owusu (18:11.476)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (18:15.607)
that has had some pretty solid results that were like, you know what, she could have been in had things have been a little different, she's playing better. Now, I don't know if there is that player. I'm sure maybe in past years that may have been, I don't think it has been the case. I'm only asking the question for academic purposes.

Alvin Owusu (18:31.627)
It's hard to say. mean, the next person out behind Mira would have been Katarina Alexandrova. And she's had a pretty good year, like, she's had the, let's say the poor woman's version of a pretty good year would be like, the best version of that is Paolini. Like Paolini's had a pretty good year, but like, pretty good, like, know, last ladder rounds of slams, pretty good. Like quarterfinals here or there. Like she's...

Torrey Hawkins (18:52.31)
Pretty good.

Torrey Hawkins (18:58.891)
Right, right, right.

Alvin Owusu (19:00.551)
and wanted Masters 1000 event. think the profile of the player who gets into this event is it's pretty strong. Like everyone's either wanna slam or final to slam or want a couple, like I wanna Masters 1000. Like, so that's like, you know, if you can't do all three, cause I think like, you know, don't think Cocoa wanna Masters 1000. I think she did actually. Like the top three all won.

one of each one of those, Like Arena, EGAA, Coco, all won slams, all won master, I think they all won master's events, to go back and check. But now you're getting the, that's the creme de la creme, right? But the rest of them, like Jessie finaled the US Open. Did she final the US Open? No, she semi-finaled the US Open this year. But then had some really good results, like just kind of like across the board, especially on the back end of this year. And then, you know,

Torrey Hawkins (19:54.699)
lot of 500s 1000s has done well.

Alvin Owusu (19:56.604)
Lot of five done well Jasmine one one Rome Amanda, you know double final Grand Slams here wanna wanna don't do went doha Or did she win? She won the other one? Maybe she won. Maybe she wanted to buy it. I think it was doha Yeah, so like you I mean, we've got we've got players who have do have done things and yeah Madison didn't win a 1000 but she did win the Grand Slam. So I a great so I feel like you got the right I Feel like you're gonna end up with the right people. Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (20:10.331)
I I thought one, one, thought, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (20:20.384)
Nope. Nope. Nope.

So, something got the right one. Is there a way, and I guess the points go, you'd almost have to get the right, the next four would have to be points-wise up there. It's more of trivia conversation than it is anything else. I'm looking at players like Mojova, I'm looking at players like Andrusova, whose eyes have been hurt this part of the year, had great results. Players like, who's done well,

Alvin Owusu (20:33.0)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (20:50.827)
after Bedosa has been hurt for a good chunk of the year and hasn't been her normal self. Even a player like, I'm gonna put it, the Clara Taliesin who hasn't had a bad, has had a pretty good, Emma Navarro, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention her. You got some players that are perennial just outside or just inside the top 10 that have not had the year they've had in the past that are there. And I was more academic to say, are we missing anybody from this year's list? I don't think so.

Alvin Owusu (21:15.497)
Yeah, don't so. one's done anything. Like even if you, let's say Madison is not in the top eight and she didn't win the Australian Open, someone else would have won the Australian Open. Let's just assume it's one of the women who, one of the other Grand Slam winners who, so we're not bringing in somebody else into this conversation. Let's just say that that slam went to, I mean she beat Arena, so let's say Arena won two this year, okay. Who gets in? Mira makes sense because she did win two.

Torrey Hawkins (21:33.384)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (21:45.577)
That's just one thousandth, right? So like that that would have made sense, but like this

Torrey Hawkins (21:46.783)
Right. And Mira makes her eight. And to my point, as I said, it only is a bigger burden for Madison and Kerry going into the event. So like I said, it was more academic. My biggest thing I like for this tournament to feature is not just the people that won, but also to... It also kind of highlights how they play against each other on another surface, right?

Alvin Owusu (21:51.424)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (22:14.377)
Let's say we all know Ega's pretty good on McClay. think she's once, half of her slams are on McClay, right? We all know that Madison tends to be a pretty good hardcore player. We know that on the grass, Amanda's played some pretty good tennis, right? She's pretty good and backed it up with a pretty good US Open. So I see that to say, now having to play this on a neutral, if you will, if you can call hardcore an indoor neutral, it just brings up a different dynamic.

And obviously I think it aids, at the very least, it's something that you know every one of them has played on at some point. And they're all, and it's a consistent, the only thing different now is your play. I think that's all I was getting at. And I think they got the right aid. We'll miss Mira, but she'll be back. I'm sure of it very, very soon. Who do you like that might, besides Rebecca, that might be a lightning rod that people are sleeping on?

this time of the year with their recent results of this.

Alvin Owusu (23:17.067)
I mean, this is a tough one because I think a lot of it comes down to like motivation. I think arena's always kind of the betting favorite and especially in a indoor hardcore, I feel like that just screams arena sabalinka. But I mean, Coco did win it last year with a very similar field, right? And Coco.

Torrey Hawkins (23:26.132)
Mm-hmm.

Alvin Owusu (23:43.893)
Coco has a bad week where she semi-finals, a bad week quote unquote, when she semi-finals and masters 1000. And then a good week where she, and the very next week she wins. So it's like, yeah, like she's pretty darn consistent.

Torrey Hawkins (23:57.117)
Hardcore to indoor, hardcore to indoor. It's hard to bet against Coco. I'll be honest.

Alvin Owusu (24:01.072)
Never lost that she's never lost a hardcore final. Like I mean, okay, like

Torrey Hawkins (24:04.074)
Right. That to me is, it's hard to call her a dark horse by any stretch of the imagination. But to me, she's one I'm looking at that could go the distance here. pretty much, that's not just the end of the year. I think she's still hungry. I think she's missing some, I think the US Open, she still remembers, has that taste in her mouth of how the US Open didn't go as planned. And I feel like she's obviously, she's my favorite, if you will, going into it.

I think we're back and could do some damage in this thing. think she's someone that could really turn the tables on her because you know she can play well. I wouldn't be shocked at all if we looked up, depending on the draw works out, if we looked up, you know, we can have from today, whatever date it is, and we said, wow, the four, the last four standing are we're back in the golf, know, Sabalinka and, you know, I'm just going to say for lack of a better, if we looked at

Sabalinkas, Coco, Rebacchina and Ika. I wouldn't be shocked at all if it was those four that made that last quote unquote cut. I could see just as the year's going on. And I kind of put her in the same boat as I put Amanda. Amanda's playing well. It's which Amanda shows up. You hope she has a bad day. And that's just, you're not.

You're not fully in control. You know what mean? It's more about the ball she's bringing that day.

Alvin Owusu (25:32.075)
Right, and I'm glad you mentioned Amanda because I am, know, we're looking at the year that she's had, like she wins a Masters 1000, great. And then finals Wimbledon, final is US Open. Gets herself some rest after the US Open and then wins China, right, wins another 1000. So like, okay, you've got a woman here who has final two Grand Slams, won two Masters 1000s in a year.

and she's fairly rested, like that China event finished up. Right, and so now it's like, okay, you gotta start taking this seriously. This wasn't like just the Wimbledon thing felt a little, not necessarily flash in the panty, but like a little like, okay, whatever, but then comes back, US Open, gets her revenge win over IGA, right, and then.

Torrey Hawkins (26:04.435)
Yeah. And comfortable at door.

Alvin Owusu (26:27.946)
and gets into the final and then follows it up with another Masters 1000 the very next event, right? So she, like what I'm starting to see is here, if she's rested, like she doesn't really need a lot to get going in the next event. She's better off with rest than reps.

Torrey Hawkins (26:40.232)
Yep, healthy, right. Just healthy and mind clear. And she's one those players that she's pretty much hitting full speed on ball four. By the time, fee, roll one, low heavy, bam. I guess we're getting started. There ain't much.

Alvin Owusu (26:52.946)
Right. Let's go. And so until that kind of kind of it's kind of my point, like it's like, what can we as we go into this event, like things that we're looking for, if we come out of this event and go, damn, Amanda smoked everybody. Is that a is that a is that a statement? Because like Cocoa won the event last year. Okay.

whatever, and then goes to the Australian Open and gets kind of taken apart by Bedosa with her standard issues, right? Gets through those same issues, still wins the French Open. Loses early at Wimbledon first round, maybe, I think it was, and then kind of gets a Bedosa part two against Osaka in the US Open. what did that?

in final championship meet, it hadn't really made much of anything except for she made a lot of money in a week. But can we take anything from it if someone like a Anasimova puts the hammer down or is this just like, let me get my money and get the hell out of here and call and rest up for 2026? Man.

Torrey Hawkins (27:49.916)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (28:04.912)
Yeah, yeah. Interesting question. I feel.

It's a short, it's a short week. It's a short tournament. It's indoors. Again, we are talking about the control variables. I think it's going to come down to the better strikers. Unfortunately for me, that doesn't bode well for the Paulini. That doesn't bode well for the Pelt for the Siontecs. And to be honest, you know, JPEG's always a threat. I don't know what those bigger guns going late, going deep. She, she can do it four or five matches in a row. It's just.

Alvin Owusu (28:35.786)
That's a lot. That's a lot. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (28:41.127)
Can she knock off one on a bad day? 100%. If anything, her as it's a better bet. If you're looking to make some money, is she going to go the distance with that kind of field? It's tough to say. She would have to need a lot of help. And what's the chances of six to the eight of them having a bad day all at the same time in a row? It's possible, but not very likely.

Alvin Owusu (29:03.806)
Yeah, but, right.

Torrey Hawkins (29:06.439)
That's where I'm at. think Coco's playing some good ball right now. Amanda's playing some good ball right now. You never bet against Arena, especially at this time of the year. She did just win the US Open. to me, yeah, you're looking at that level of a tournament to me. As I say, I could say Rebecca, I could literally see Rebecca being again, which Atlanta shows up, but I could see the top four being what they are, going the distance in this, because they're all there.

And again, it's the meat to me, it's the pinup draw works out and who plays who. We're backing up. If it somehow came down with a backing up plan up against either Arena or Eega, either one of those matches, I could see that being a very distinct possibility for backing that kind of disrupt somebody's, you know, and take somebody's candy in that match. So big, fun.

Alvin Owusu (29:58.206)
Yeah, and you'll have very little to add to the test tube environment of indoor tennis. We're also in an area of the world where none of these players are from, so you're not gonna have any fan involved. Yeah, there's no home court advantage. So yeah, it's interesting. Let's actually stick there, speaking of being in the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Riyadh specifically, it was announced a couple days ago that Saudi Arabia is being awarded

Torrey Hawkins (30:03.706)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (30:08.907)
There's a home court ban.

Alvin Owusu (30:25.961)
awarded an ATP Masters 1000 event no sooner than 2028. So let's assume it's 2028. The event's gonna be a 56-man draw, one-week event. What are the other details? likely going to be in, it's gonna be in February, where exactly in February I think is interesting, where they end up putting it. And the other kicker is that it is not a mandatory Masters 1000, so there will now be

Torrey Hawkins (30:32.496)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (30:55.785)
10 of them of the.

Torrey Hawkins (30:56.912)
But you can imagine there'll be a lot of prize money, a lot of appearance money. Sorry, appearance money. know what talking about? Their appearance money might be bigger than the actual, you know what I'm saying? And that might have been their kicker. No, no, no, we're good. Optional. By the way, million dollar prize, million dollar appearance fee for those that, and if you win, we'll triple it. Just saying. And you're dealing with that level of the world that has that deeper pocket.

Alvin Owusu (30:59.931)
Well, I mean, the prize money is held consistent by the tour, the the the appearance fee. baby. baby.

Alvin Owusu (31:13.417)
Great no no

Alvin Owusu (31:22.139)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (31:26.887)
If I'm a player, if I'm a player of the top 10, I'm making it a point to put that in my calendar, just saying.

Alvin Owusu (31:35.516)
Yeah, and so that's kind of the interesting, the ironic part about it is that the players have been pushing for more time off, fewer mandatory events, and it's like, okay, you've got an extra 1,000, which is another, it's another earning opportunity for the top players, right? You're making your money on the 1,000s and the Grand Slams, but then now we're jamming another event into the calendar, so what happens in that space, right?

Torrey Hawkins (31:52.688)
Nope. Nope.

Alvin Owusu (32:04.903)
our tournament's gonna get pulled back. Are events going to get, is this the time that we actually put a Masters 1000 on top of other events, which is typically not done, right? If a Masters 1000 is happening, no other tournaments are being played. So if you're not in, are, right, exactly, you don't have an opportunity to make money that week. If you're outside of the top 60, you're not playing that week. So.

Torrey Hawkins (32:17.158)
All right. All right.

Yep. They get grand plan treatment. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (32:30.532)
Right. And it monopolizes the field as it should, Alvin, let's be honest. It monopolizes the field in the way that everything that happens in your sport is here. And that's how it should be. I think that's a great thing. I don't mind that time of the year. They actually win is pretty good. They have two other tournaments in that around that same time frame after Australia anyway. think there's two other 500s around that same time frame. So it makes sense geographically and it makes sense in the time of the year. I only

Alvin Owusu (32:53.595)
Yeah, so you've got, you know, kind of.

Torrey Hawkins (33:00.197)
I just hope that we find a way to, and I mentioned this in a previous podcast, when we bump up Australia's open, you know, a week or two ahead, give enough time for the players to have that mini break right after. I'm not talking about the top 20, the top 24, even the top 32. We're talking about, because they would have gone some level of distance and played theoretically through the first week.

which is let's face it, a tournament itself, right? The first week of a slam is a tournament in itself. You're still playing while you're not playing as many matches. It's the same wear and tear your plan and whether you're playing doubles as well, play other things, you've played probably five days, play-play actual matches, five of those seven days. Let's be honest. Even if, even though it takes three days to get through the first round of the singles, I say it to say, if there's a way for them to have the top to be off a

quote-unquote weak and then you continue with some of your 500s and 1000s. To me that makes a lot of sense. I like that it's the 56. You're gonna have a buyer too. You're gonna have a few other rounds in there. Get that seed, a chance to get a few more days. I think that's great, especially for your top four, even your top eight. I'm just looking at it of like this. All the tournaments should have some level of that because what I took away from our conversation before, when we talk about the schedules too busy.

In whose mind though is the question. To who are we talking about? For the top four, you're exactly right. There's too many tournaments. For five through 16, it's just about right. You're not gonna do great every week. And then for 17 through 32, they need those earning opportunities, right? And for 33 through 64, God bless it, put one every week, you know.

Alvin Owusu (34:49.339)
Right, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (34:54.003)
Bye!

Torrey Hawkins (34:54.405)
And just let us make some money and get a chance to catch one of these guys, catch them slipping a little bit. And for 66 through 128, buddy, we are thankful for a chance to make some money and trying to be relevant this year and be a little better than last year and be able to hopefully plan. You I know what it's like to be in that 150 to 200 range with some players. can't, your whole year is based on hoping you get into that tournament, getting the points.

Alvin Owusu (35:20.53)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (35:21.079)
and can schedule your next year and have some stability, have some knowns and not knowing, well, if I get in, I go here, if not, I'll go here. Even playing tickets are tough to buy not knowing your schedule, right? So it's, you know, it's just, it's tough for that player on the outside of that top hunter to really make his or her money to be able to, and not be buying tickets, you know, or two before the cutoff date. So I understand all sides of this.

give the top seeds a day or two lead in if you will. I think that block seeding type of draw format is really good for them. They have gone the distance in most cases in a previous tournament. They need it, they deserved it, they earned it. But I don't think the issue so much is the tournaments are too much and the schedule is too packed. It's that the draw and the format being equal, being full, hurts the top player plays all the time. And now that player has to pull out.

Alvin Owusu (36:18.918)
Yeah, it-

Torrey Hawkins (36:19.266)
And that's why I went early with our thought about give them a max, give them a max. And I still stand by that option, not that it limits their earning potential, but that you're limiting their number of matches so that they can be around for more of the other matches and not have to pull out of the slam, which is really when you want them there, right? And I think that was my thing. While it's their choice, I hear you, but you can't say, well, the player chose to play.

And then you pack in nine more 1000s in the calendar year and say, you know, yeah, but the player is supposed to play. Well, shoot, yeah, he chose to play because you made him play. You put 12 more bits in the year, you know, and then you gave him an incentive with the bonus pool at the end of the year. Of course he's going to play. Don't blame that on the pro. Blame it on the system, right? Well, they say don't play, don't hit the player, hit the game. The game is making you play all these extras. So to me, but you're, depending on who you're talking to, stratify it out, top.

Alvin Owusu (37:06.806)
Don't hit player to hit the game. Yeah

Torrey Hawkins (37:16.321)
need a break, give them a similar schedule with a softer lead in or rolling into the schedule. Next to top, they get to play similar, they're going to play a little more and that's really your up and comers you're talking about, who you're referring to, your Shelton's, your Fritz's and so on. Fritz may be a little different right now because he's maybe four or whatever, but your next nine through 16, those players are typically only playing a week or so anyway at the slams. Let those guys keep rolling.

Let them keep getting their chances and that's the next gen, so to speak, the real next gen. And then of course, you've got that outside of that tier that they need the chance, they need the money, they need the tournament. I feel like it's not going bad as long you can adjust for the top.

Alvin Owusu (38:02.418)
Well, I think the issue when you talk about adjusting for the top is like the needs. have a lot of, you had a lot of people, a lot of different entities involved here when you come to, when you start talking about like just a tournament. What does it mean for a tournament to be successful for someone, for an entity to get value out of a tournament, right? If you are the actual tournament, right, you want the best players playing at the end of that tournament. So you are, you're selling through your tickets, you're selling through your advertising, like.

Pac stadiums, selling food and beverage and merchandise, the whole deal, right? But you need those players, right? So again, you're looking at your, I thought we were gonna get through this entire podcast without talking about them. You're looking at your Alcarazas and your centers, you want them in your event, right? Which is why outside of the Grand Slams and the 1000s, that's why tournaments like Rotterdam or wherever they're at recently, maybe China, like those 500s are like paying a lot of money for these guys to show up because.

They have to play a, I think they have to play five, five hundreds a year. And so, okay, if I'm gonna play it, I'm gonna play the ones that not only fit my schedule, but also pay me the most money. Okay, great. But now you've got your one thousands, okay, of the nine currently existing, you have to play eight, I believe, to be eligible for the challenge, for the bonus pool. All right, Alcaraz misses two of them. And he's like, okay, I'm pulling out of Madrid because I'm a little, I need some rest, I'm a little banked up. Fine, I missed one.

Torrey Hawkins (39:05.718)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (39:25.352)
And then we get towards the back end of the year, he pulls out of Shanghai as well. He's like, well, I'm not going back outside. I'm inside right now. So okay, I'm not gonna be eligible for the bonus pool. Great way to take care of that bonus pool money is just to pop over and play a little six king slam, right? Okay, all right, my money's, my on court money is taken care of. But I think from a player standpoint, it's not really, from what I've heard, it's not necessarily the...

the amount of the events, it's the increased days of the event. So when a master's 1000 event goes from one week to 12 days, Now they're there longer and they're out of rhythm. Like think Center mentioned it, you know, it's not the, like we can play best out of three, we're better off playing every day. It's not, best out of three is not hurting us. Shout out to best out of three, best of three. It's not hurting us. It's the day on, day off within that event that kind of throws us off.

Torrey Hawkins (39:58.881)
10 days.

Alvin Owusu (40:20.636)
They'd be, they'd much rather just like, all this nonsense. Yeah, they'd rather like, hey, let's just start on Monday, finish on Sunday, let's just call the event the event. And that is, that's a lot easier to manage from a player standpoint, right? So my question then becomes when I'm looking at the schedule and like, okay, well what's after the Australian Open, which is like the last two weeks of January, we got a week off and then it's two 500s, right? Dallas and Rotterdam. Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (40:20.641)
And it starts on Wednesday, finishes on this or finishes on a Tuesday.

Alvin Owusu (40:50.79)
That's like second week of February. Okay, if it's not that week, it's the following week. Okay, we've got two more 500s, Doha and Rio de Janeiro, right? So it kind of depends on what part of the world are you in? Are you in Europe, which UAE is pretty close to Europe, or are you over in the Americas doing the Dallas indoors and then going down to...

Torrey Hawkins (41:02.315)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (41:14.88)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (41:15.846)
down to Rio to play there. like, and then even the third, the week after that, you've got Acapulco in Dubai. So like again, you see the paths here that players are geographically playing in. So what happens when you stick a tournament anywhere in those three weeks, who's getting screwed? Like which of these 500s is getting screwed? Which of these tracks of 500s is getting screwed? So I would have to guess looking at the kind of, here are the three weeks, here are the locations, are you gonna screw Dallas?

Rio and Acapulco or are gonna screw Rotterdam and Doha and Dubai? And it's like honestly if you want the players to play it almost feels like you're gonna screw Rotterdam like stick it right there

Torrey Hawkins (41:47.24)
Rio and Hakaoka.

Torrey Hawkins (42:02.282)
Yep. Yep.

Alvin Owusu (42:05.315)
Then now you've got okay all your European players are gonna be there right there go straight from Australia to the UAE and then now start making their way Making their there now they're in the UAE for two weeks like are a month yeah, that's the

Torrey Hawkins (42:11.53)
Yup. Yup.

Yep, yep, a month. You're gonna put Riyadh there. Again, to my point, not Riyadh, we don't know where it's gonna be, it's Saudi Arabia, but probably Riyadh, right? My point being, you also have to understand that Saudi Arabia and the Arab nations as a whole,

Alvin Owusu (42:23.673)
It'll be in reality. It'll be in reality.

Torrey Hawkins (42:40.225)
pretty close to limitless funds. So you have to think that when you talk about screwing Rotterdam, they're going to put in some pretty sizable parents monies, which is completely outside of the control of the WTA and ATP. So now Dallas, Acapulco, Rio and so on will now have to, Rotterdam will have to pony up.

to compete with said players and the appearance minus that are being offered. go ahead, I want you to go with your thoughts.

Alvin Owusu (43:13.189)
Yeah, but that's the problem though. So, okay, let's say they put it in the same week that Rotterdam exists, right? And so it's Dallas as a 500, Rotterdam as a 500, and then you've got this Riyadh as a Masters 1000. It's optional, right? So if you're Alcara, let's say Alcara's and Center are probably both gonna play it, they're earning a lot of money throwing at them. Like now it's like someone like a Ben Shelton who played Dallas last year, right?

what do I do? Like now our good friend, Peter Lebedev, is like, okay, now all of my money, now I have to really incentivize these players to come here as opposed to going there. I think that starts to.

Torrey Hawkins (43:52.67)
Right? Yeah. But it's the it's the L.I.V. golf thing now all over again, isn't it? You know, and now I'm just saying, Alvin, and that you can't deal with. Let's be honest. That's part of the reason why there are not that many 250s left anymore is because the Arab community wanted inside the tennis portion. They've already presented that disruption in golf and obviously doing it with Formula One and other sports. So they are going they are doubling down on the whole tourism

Alvin Owusu (43:58.696)
Yeah, yeah

Torrey Hawkins (44:22.367)
peace knowing that these things are going to be great for their economies, great for their tourism, great for their hotels and putting butts in beds and obviously putting butts in seats at restaurants. So it's going to only continue and the fact that they have limitless funds will be or pretty much will only incentivize the players to go there more. And if I'm a player like a Carlos or Yannick and I know I just played the Six Kings.

I'm probably cozying up to some of these guys with some money and probably got some relationships going on as well. I'm coming. I told you I'm coming. I'm coming. And now those players are already gone. Now, if I'm Ben Shelton, to answer your question, I have to realize what's good for me. And is the briad, golden handshake, worth it for my tennis to play up against these guys, get that level of tournament and let it be like a true 1000?

Alvin Owusu (44:53.649)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (44:58.682)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (45:18.874)
Or might I need the tournament win, the matches, and to be that big little player. And hey, by the way, Re odds, pay an X. If you can match, I'm coming Dallas. And now at that point, the money's not even that big of a deal. Now I'm staying stateside. I'm supporting local businesses. And bottom line, I'm here. I'm here in the state. And bottom line, I'm here.

Alvin Owusu (45:38.855)
What's this, the NIL deal?

Torrey Hawkins (45:45.055)
And I'm just saying, and it lets each one of those top guys be the top guy somewhere else. So to me, that becomes an individual decision with each guy, deciding what's best for him or his team and what that player needs. Especially if, especially if I'm a player that just lost in the semi to one of these guys, if I'm looking at the points the way I should be, and this end of year tournament is kind of a big deal, that's also the way can look at my whole year. Think about it.

I wouldn't mind going to try my Rob where I'm the favorite. Winning a tournament is never a bad idea, Never a bad idea. So.

Alvin Owusu (46:19.527)
Right. I guess it really ends up like where exactly, we're pontificating here, we don't know the exact dates, right? And obviously this is 20, we're in 2025 right now, we're talking two full seasons ahead, like we're gonna go through two full seasons before we even have to get a chance to work with this, but it also alters, it's not just that week, it's the following weeks, right? And I think that's kind of the pushback is like.

Torrey Hawkins (46:30.302)
So it's not even till 28.

Alvin Owusu (46:45.135)
Okay, the players who would come over to the Americas and play the, you know, play Dallas and then go play, you know, Rio and then go play Acapulco. It's like, well, if I'm gonna go instead of going to Dallas and I'm not playing, know, instead of going to Dallas, I'm gonna go to Riyadh. It's like, well, I'm still over here. I might as well go play Doha instead of Rio. And then I might as well go play Dubai instead of Acapulco, right? So that's the cascading.

Torrey Hawkins (47:11.774)
It's a huge trickle down cascade effect and it's a great move for the Arab countries en masse to create this bit of a disruption because they're putting, making this be so that we're going to make it real hard for you not to come here. You know what I mean? We're going to make it very hard for you not to come here and we are going to simply outshine and out, you know,

Alvin Owusu (47:29.499)
Right, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (47:40.114)
the hospitality I'm sure is gonna be phenomenal. You know what mean? You're get a red carpet treatment wherever you go. We're gonna make it very difficult for you to say no. And I think that's, isn't that the point? And that's gonna put the pressure on these teams, on these tournaments that have had this little bit of nice, you know, spot in the calendar to realize, know, competition's all, there's always competition, even to get competition to show up at your door, there's competition. And I think that's what we're seeing right now.

Alvin Owusu (48:04.901)
Yes, the desert storm swing is what we ran up calling that. like it's gonna be an interesting, it's gonna make February really, really interesting. like we kind of, you know, we take a little bit of a beat there between Australian Open and Indian Wells, right? So February is, you know, the guys, everyone leaves Australia and then kind of the Europeans kind of go the Europe UAE route usually. And then the Americans and South Americans take the

take the America's route with some slight caveats. know Carlos has played Rio before and some players will come over to Acapulco just to get accustomed to, you you gotta come over here at some point before you go to Indian Wells. So it'll make that interesting. We'll also be talking about players that we don't even know about quite yet, right? Like maybe Learner TN is in the top 10 at that point and we're talking, having a different conversation. But tennis always gives us, you better get a surface.

Torrey Hawkins (48:47.517)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (49:00.488)
Better get a serve first, I'm with you.

Alvin Owusu (49:03.239)
Let's not do that right now because I'm so excited to talk about Learner TN in our interview wrap up. Get out of my notebook.

Torrey Hawkins (49:09.585)
No no doubt. Fair enough, fair enough. I love him by the way. I think he's absolutely awesome. So looking forward to watching him next year. What's next? What's next on the docket?

Alvin Owusu (49:19.163)
The last thing, speaking of the year in, our year in wrap up show, if you're still with us, last year we did it. We're gonna do it again this year. We're gonna talk about the, once we get past all these, finals, the year in finals and the Davis Cups and what not, we will do a proper year in review, 2026 preview. And one player that I know that we end up talking a lot about, so I kinda wanna talk about him now, and we can spare it later, is Francis Tiago. So Francis announced this week.

that he's letting his coaching staff go. So David Witt, he's been with him for about a year, he's out. Jordy, his role dog for the last five years is out. And so I think it's a good time for us because we both have a decent amount of experience. Yours is a little more firsthand than mine, but Francis was like that guy in juniors when I was teaching a lot. And I see him at different events. And we've been with Francis now for 10 years on tour.

Probably for some of us closer to you know 13 years of him being in our existence and We're at a point right now where Francis started the year ranked about where he is now about about 29 in the world He's 27 years old will be 28 during the Australian Open What are we what are we? What are we doing? Where are we with where are we with Francis right now? Like as we take a macro look of okay. This guy has been on tour for 10 years

Torrey Hawkins (50:16.571)
And you, bro.

Alvin Owusu (50:46.138)
What are, how do we feel based upon, like his results based upon the expectations or maybe his, or against maybe his potential?

Torrey Hawkins (50:58.148)
I think you mentioned three very distinct terms there. Expectations.

Torrey Hawkins (51:05.658)
potential.

Results he's on the other side of his upside He will he had a great semi-final run was it two years ago at the open maybe three now

Alvin Owusu (51:21.478)
He's made the semi-finals of the Open twice actually, 2022 and 2024.

Torrey Hawkins (51:26.895)
The last, wow. The, I don't see that repeating itself in my opinion. He's had a wonderful career. I'm not speaking of him as past tense, but the fact that he's now 29 in the world and he was seven, eight in the world, but just, we were talking about this Alvin pre Australia. I'm pretty sure he was again, coming off that semi-final in 24 where he was, I want to say,

678 was Fritz, him and Tommy Paul, not mistaken.

Alvin Owusu (51:59.043)
He made top he got to They were close close. It was like yeah, they he got to ten. I think he got ten was his high in 2023 Yeah, cuz he cuz he said he was still rolling off those points for yeah. Yeah. Yeah this Yep

Torrey Hawkins (52:06.661)
Was it a 10?

Torrey Hawkins (52:10.843)
Maybe it was nine, 10, 11. But my point is they were all fairly close. I could get the exact number wrong. I think Francis moved up. That's probably where I'm thinking about the number. But I'm pretty sure the three of them were all literally in stair step order of where they were. And so for him to now be 29 and the upper 16 is not getting any weaker or younger to me, that tells me that he's looking at the next 18.

months to two years of really maximizing some tournaments. Not Novak yet in terms of maximizing his playing some of the big ones, but he's probably trying to retool team game body, maybe more fitness needs to stay healthy, maybe more things he can work on to, you know, maybe to maximize some things he's doing pretty well. And maybe even a few tweaks to the schedule and the fitness to make sure he's playing his best tennis in those bigger events because

As we've always said, we said with one of best of all time, father time is undefeated. So for young man who's brought wonderful things to the tennis court and has, in my opinion, has overachieved a lot of ways. I feel like this 10 year clock that he's now ran is he's in, he's in the unfortunate stoppage time of his career. If he went past 30, I'd be, when I see 30, he could play as long as he wants to because he's hopefully in decent shape, but.

I don't think he's going to be the Stan Barenka, know, 41, 42, so up there trying to place in tournaments because he just wants to. I see Francis being a pretty good personality off court as well. He's done well for himself on the off court earnings. He's got a great personality. He's got a great following. I see him getting into some Hollywood, getting into some other ambassador roles and whatnot, using tennis as his stepping stone to the next piece for Francis. I don't see him doing that.

And I see him doing a great example of...

Torrey Hawkins (54:17.189)
18 months to two years in my opinion. that to say his changes are going to be very very significant to to impact immediately in the next six to twelve months. So can I get back there? What do I need to do to get back there? Because if it's not that then what am I doing? I don't think he wants to hear you know I'm done and he wants to hear what can I do to get back to top 10 and and let me give my best at that.

Because otherwise I'm done anyway. And at that point, I think that's his mindset right now, at least from what I said.

Alvin Owusu (54:56.452)
Yeah, and I think it's kinda, it's good to look at this from a standpoint of what does it mean when someone changes coaches, right? So we're in the time of year where this is going to happen a lot. We're gonna, in the next few weeks, we're gonna see a lot of people as the season starts to wide down briefly. We'll start to, yeah, well, yeah, this is at the, as they call it in F1, it's silly season, right? Where people are changing seats and we have the same thing here in tennis. This will happen. David Witt.

Torrey Hawkins (55:13.987)
Yeah, it's carousel time.

Alvin Owusu (55:24.07)
over the last years, like he was with Jessica Pagula up until the beginning of 2024, they went different ways and then he grabs Francis's bag and now they're going different ways and this happens. But I think to your very last point, he is trying, right? He's obviously saying what I did this year is not good enough for me, I expect more out of myself, I intend to do better and I'm going to, I'll start with finding someone that can help me do better.

Torrey Hawkins (55:50.884)
Yeah. For whatever reason. Yeah. And it doesn't need to be a reason. Could want a fresh voice. know, Coco did it before the US Open, you know, try to get a more of a technical hand on that serve and do some things. Roger did it with Lubachik after he had won several slams. He wanted to figure out his one goal. Can I beat Rafa?

Alvin Owusu (55:51.064)
For whatever reason I don't know the details of why I didn't work out with them. But yeah, you I mean

Alvin Owusu (56:10.394)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (56:13.219)
You know, what do I need? And you're a one-hander. Help me, help me get past this place where I'm at. And I think Yvonne was a great choice for him and with him for what, seven years? I think it's what, how long Yvonne was with him. So this is great. I'm speaking to Francis in the macro level of where he's been and what he's been for tennis. And the reason you change is not only are you trying, you're trying to get back to top 10 and maybe even have a personal best this year while you still can. And my only point is, that

And for a player that's been top 10 in the world, that means getting a little bit past semis at another event or past that semi event that I've already shown success at. And I gotta do it sooner than later or 29 is going going to metastasize to 49 or 69 at some point because I'm gonna only run to these guys sooner. So at that point, I gotta stay relevant or I'm done anyway.

Alvin Owusu (57:12.518)
Right, okay, so that's kind of my big point here, like the kind of thing that I want to draw attention to. When we think about Francis, we think about that semifinal run, probably not the one that we, he's done it twice at the US Open, but the one that we kind of forget is the one where he loses to Taylor in five sets in the semifinals, right? That was 2024. The one that we think about is where he loses to Carlos after beating Nadal, right? But even take those two and we start thinking about, those are not, those are exceptions.

Torrey Hawkins (57:31.524)
Right. Exactly.

Alvin Owusu (57:42.53)
Not the rule. is only, have you, like, Francis has only made quarterfinals or better four times in his career, and those were two of them, right? So he's never, he's never won a Masters 1000. He's only finaled one, one semi-final, right? Two quarterfinals. So when I give you that, the same thing we just talked about with the women, like, what does it take to actually qualify for year-end championships and be top eight, right? Some of those women did that in a year, right? He's, he's...

Torrey Hawkins (57:50.253)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (58:10.307)
Yeah. Done that over 10.

Alvin Owusu (58:12.341)
Maybe he's, I don't really wanna put this, but like.

He more so is a 30 in the world player than he has a 10 in the world player. When you look at his career, like there...

Torrey Hawkins (58:25.859)
I would agree somewhere in between, but I hear you and I understand what you're trying to say. The point I'm getting at, and hence my term overachieved, it's always in the context, isn't it? Compared to top 100, he's phenomenal, period. Compared to top 10, he's overachieved. And that's all I'm saying. Especially when you look at those level of results. Your point is not only taken, I understood it even before you mentioned the numbers. As I said to myself,

Alvin Owusu (58:29.241)
Fair, okay, okay.

Alvin Owusu (58:52.441)
Ha

Torrey Hawkins (58:54.209)
He hadn't gone that deep that often, which is why time is of the essence to do it now. And I think he sees that. He sees he wants to push himself. He needs a fresh voice. He needs a fresh tactic. He needs somebody outside saying, you know what, if you maximize this and this more, you can take advantage of things you do well. And if we could show up this and this more, we could take care of these things. Get your fitness down, be healthy. You and I both saw it at the French Alvin. He did not look.

Healthy, he did not look strong. He looked beat up, he looked tired. I saw him in a first round match. He looked tired walking into that event. So that also to me speaks to scheduling. Is he playing the wrong events? There's a player who was top 10, Alvin, you and I both know well, and from North Carolina, that did so well in the 250s and 500s that it almost cost him his success at Grand Slams. He still holds a record for the longest match, but I don't think he ever got past a second, got to the second week of a slam ever.

Alvin Owusu (59:46.895)
Yeah, Mr. Isner.

Torrey Hawkins (59:51.266)
And the guy was phenomenal, great talent, great tennis. I think he ever got to a second week. And he won, don't know how many titles at 250 and 500. So at some point he made that his, he made his bread that way. He was good with it. He was, and quite frankly, I talked to him in a term. says, Tia, I'm playing with the house's money. I'm doing fine. I never thought I'd be here. So he was good with it. But I think Francis wants to maybe go a little deeper. And if he can, it needs to be soon. Not only is Father Time there,

You talked about the three year window. I think it's closer to five for the men. He's been out there 10. There's no, there's no real on any radar. there a player comes back from 29 and reaches number one? I mean, it just doesn't happen. So at some point we're not even talking about Alcara as a center being at the top right now. So he needs to figure out something fairly quickly, change up a few things, hit the fitness strong, give it a strong refresh for 2026.

And then he's got a chance, especially for the first couple of slams and then kind of see how it met out. And if that change does or does not work, he'll know how to handle the next, the backend of the 18 to two years, 18 months, two years. And I think that's what I'm trying to say macro level. He's only got 16, 18 months, two years to do it in my opinion.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:09.285)
Sure, okay, fair. two things. the aforementioned, the player that you were alluding to is John Isner, right? And when you were saying that, I was thinking, wait, is that real? Is that real? And as sure as it came to your mouth, he made two quarterfinals and one semifinal of a Grand Slam. That's it. Like a smattering of fourth round. know, depending on where you draw the line between first week and second week, but I think most people consider the second week to be the rounds that end in F, right?

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:21.984)
I'm pretty sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:26.465)
There you go.

Alvin Owusu (01:01:39.238)
and only three times in his very long career from 07 to 23. So that's 16 years. 16 years, 16 by four is a lot, 64. Yeah, huh. This is what I'm saying. But my second point though was about Francis. When we start talking about peak and you...

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:42.4)
10, 12 year career, how long, did he play 15 years?

16 years.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:55.36)
to do only three times. This is what I'm This is what I'm telling you. You know what mean? I'm just telling you.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:06.597)
earlier referenced Warinka, you don't think he's gonna be staying around for another 10 years like Stan playing to 40. I agree, I also don't think it's, I don't think he's gonna be able to because his unique gifts are around his movement and his craft and those are things.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:22.752)
movement, craftiness, gritty play, physicality of play. That player doesn't usually play that long.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:27.011)
Right, yeah.

Yeah, he doesn't you that you need firepower to be able to make up for the you know for those those other two things deteriorating a craft gets a lot harder when you can't get to as many balls. You need to have your feet underneath you. And you know obviously speeds kind of one of the first thing that goes and then you know if you don't have an easy way to get in and out of service games to win you know short the points and win points easily which is not Francis Forte. I do see the other side of 30 being.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:40.262)
That's right.

Alvin Owusu (01:02:58.669)
more difficult for him than a bigger player. So yeah, that's, I don't like to make light of, when you say when someone's done, it's like well done means a couple different things within context. Are we done seeing them compete for the second week of Grand Slams? Are we done seeing them on tour? Those are different things, but the two can become one pretty quickly.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:22.144)
Don't do well in the first week. You ain't doing well in the second week, period. But I also want to bring a little context to Francis because I remember being at a really cool coaches conference. I still say this, they're one of my favorite coaches conferences that I went to. When Martin Blackman had become the new

Alvin Owusu (01:03:29.974)
Right. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:51.709)
head of player development some years ago. invited, he had a women's coaches conference, had an Asian American coaches conference, had an African American coaches conference. He wanted to get more coaches to get more of those segments into the game. And he wanted to speak to those coaches that were obviously homogenous, if you will, to that sector of the game. I remember us all talking about Francis specifically for the better part of an hour.

And I remember thinking, I made the comment to a few players at the time, a few other coaches I should say, that I said, guys, I gotta tell you, 15 years ago, this is about that time that it happened, there was a player that my player played doubles with and was going to play in that tournament with. And all I kept talking about was how suspect the forehand was. Didn't have a third, follies were just, ugh.

In fact, got my player tagged a couple of times at the net when they played doubles and they reached the semis, the doubles at the Australian. So it's not a bad player. And I remember this player telling me that was his last junior tournament. He's going to start playing pros. And I'm like, this guy playing pros. Are you for real? Your game ain't ready. You ain't ready. What are you talking about? I couldn't have foreseen what Novak Djokovic was going to do over the next 20 years. And I've mentioned this story to you a few times.

Everything that the coaches in that conference were talking about, his technique, the forehand, the serves not that big. He does, I mean, and they weren't wrong, but they failed to measure the size of the fight and the dog, right? Everybody was measuring the size of the dog in the fight. And I told them that I said, guys, if I've learned one thing, I've learned how much better can he get despite the misgivings. That's what I learned from Novak Djokovic. Yes, I was, I wasn't wrong.

Alvin Owusu (01:05:41.902)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:05:48.58)
I was looking at the wrong things. If I had to look at where he was then, I would still say what I'd say right now. But 20 years later, you know what I say? But what am I missing? What makes him good? As good as not his backhand, good as not his stroke, good is how he fights, he competes, how he adjusts. And that's what I would have been missing out of that, if you will, analysis or that, you know, his swat, so to speak.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:13.527)
Yeah, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:06:13.98)
Here is now, we now have benefit of knowing Novak Djokovic 24 slams later is one the best of all time.

Francis is a lesser Novak in the sense that he's done great with what he's done. I don't put him in that Grand Slam category. Obviously he hasn't won a Grand Slam, but I put him in that overachieved. What we looked at then, we forgot how much he would compete. We forgot how much of a competitor that he was and was going to be. I don't see that changing now. And to your point, Novak has still found a way to be relevant even right now. That's why

Even now, we cautiously kind of hint at his retirement, but really only Novak can decide that when he's ready to stop competing. Right. And I feel Francis is very much the same way. And I've used him in the context of Novak in that sense. Both are hyper competitive and will, they will say when they're done, not necessarily you or I, but I say that also to say father time is undefeated. so tick tock, tick tock that clock is running. So he doesn't have the benefit of time.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:57.474)
Right, right.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:18.856)
to figure this out very quickly. I applaud his effort to change coaches. I applaud any player's effort to see something different and to get that part of the game. I just want to make sure people realize how far he's come. And with the given skill set that he's had, he has had a phenomenal career. If he chooses to call it a day tomorrow, he's had a great career. If he chooses to go even further and thinks he can go, I'd be concerned. I'd be concerned if I was a guy in that upper side of 28.

to 11 who he thinks he can still beat. And that includes a couple of our current Americans who are top 10. He thinks he can still beat those players and he's not wrong.

Alvin Owusu (01:07:57.893)
I've always, think when you originally said that about, you gave the Novak example before and I took it to heart and I think about, at that point I started to think differently about one Ben Shelton. Not what does he have now, but like what can he still gain? And I think that's something that's very important to keep in mind because, especially when we're talking about younger players, right, between the ages of 18 and 23, it's like they're still five years away from their peak. Assume they can get,

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:11.793)
Right. What could he still gain?

Yep. Yep. Right. They're not products.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:27.492)
you know, one to two percent better every single year, like, and they've already done this, they've already done X with what they have, imagine if they get a little bit better at the deficiencies, where could they go? So I think that's really, really valuable. I think it's extremely valuable. And I don't think I had another point. I think we're pretty tapped out for today, but here is a little something surprising. If you are watching this on YouTube,

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:47.879)
Sure.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:52.644)
After this little break, you're gonna get our our top five of the WTA all century team. Oh, and if you're listening to this on apple podcast or Spotify or some other audio only platform, you're not so i'm going to suggest that you come over to youtube and Watch it there. Um, and while i'm at it, please like subscribe follow all that stuff. Um, so for you audio based folks best of three, we're out. Um for the rest of you, uh Catch you on the other side on the other side

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:00.828)
it.