Chris Eubanks Explains What Tennis Fans Get Wrong About the Pro Level

Torrey Hawkins (00:00.427)
Yes, sir.

Alvin Owusu (00:00.89)
And welcome to another edition of the best three podcasts. I'm Alvin, that's Tory. And today we are joined by tennis channel zone. Chris for you banks. I think that's the official title these days. Chris.

Chris (00:12.505)
I don't know what the official title is, man. I'm just a dude who likes to talk about tennis. So, tennis channel, ESPN, TNT, wherever I can talk about tennis, that's where I wanna be.

Alvin Owusu (00:16.852)
With that, think you're in the right place.

Alvin Owusu (00:22.606)
Okay, fair, that's fair. Well then you found the right place for this evening's conversation, because that's all we do around here is just talk our tennis talk. I mean, I would say you're a man who needs no introduction, but of all the outlets you just mentioned, you guys can tune in and find him there at various tournaments. Former ATP number 29, former Wimbledon quarterfinalist, ACC player of the year. Chris, appreciate you joining us. My bad.

Torrey Hawkins (00:46.519)
Twice. Twice.

Chris (00:49.263)
Hey, there you go, T-Hawk. Let them know. Two time. Two time.

Torrey Hawkins (00:50.423)
I got you, I got you, yes sir, twice. Yes sir.

Alvin Owusu (00:53.582)
Two time, two time ACC Player of the Year. My apologies, my apologies. Well, Chris, thanks for joining us. We've been trying to do this for a few weeks here and I think there's no better time than now as we are kind of on the pro side, we're ramping up to kind of the money making part of the clay court season and then also on the college end. We're also getting closer and closer to NCAAs. I think they're in maybe three weeks right now.

This is an important time for tennis both here in the United States and internationally. But I kind of want to get an idea of your like where your head's at right now because in the last six months as you've been full time in your broadcasting role, right? I'm sure your life and your schedule has looked a little different than other years. Let's say December through April or May. What's that change been like and how is it impacting you right now?

Chris (01:51.845)
It's been great. It's been great. It's been a pretty seamless transition. I've been super happy Just with where everything is To be completely honest. I've been back around tennis Don't really miss playing. I love the fact that I still get the chance to be around it get to sit up close watch these matches still talk to the players and Kind of ask the questions that as a player I probably always would have loved to ask as a fan, but unless I have just that good of a relationship

not going to just go up to say, I mean, I have a pretty good relationship with a lot of the guys on tour, but, you know, talking to Davidivich Fokina about a certain aspect of his game when you're a commentator versus a player is a little different. And now it's like I get joy. I always have gotten joy out of doing that. And now I get to do it all the time. So it doesn't matter if it's folky or I get to talk to Ben or I get to talk to Francis or I get to whoever just.

anybody, Sebi, like when I get to work some stuff for him, it's fun. There's a sense of familiarity there that makes it makes it feel good to be able to take a lot of pride in calling matches or giving analysis or whatever the case is. And so it's fun to still be around it, don't have those desires to play it. And I think that that's when I know I'm like, yeah, I'm totally at peace with where things are.

Alvin Owusu (03:18.766)
Okay, yeah, me a little bit more about that actually. like, obviously there are conversations that you're having when you're on camera, right? You're either at the desk or you're courtside, whatnot. In a situation where you're curious about something with, let's use Davidivish Fekina for example. Like where are those interactions happening? Like how does that, like are you guys, is he scouting a match or something and you just happen to be near him or is this in the locker room or in the player's lounge or in the cafeteria or something like that?

Chris (03:46.597)
It could be anywhere from the players lounge to player dining to transportation line, you know, if I see somebody and The more natural way for it to happen is I see somebody After a match in some capacity usually if they've won they're in a pretty good mood And so I can see him and if I know the result off top of my head, I was like, hey man Well done today. How'd it feel and you're talking at that point? It feels more like you're talking to a former player or a current player in a way because they still are used to seeing my face around

So they'll get into, man, it was a battle. a second set, I had to save two break points at two all, and then I got out of that game, then I broke next, and then we start to kind of recount, what did you feel here? What did you feel there? And it's just fun, the kind of back and forth tennis talk, and just getting to get into the weeds a little bit. Like that part is, to me, is so fun. And then even, so that might happen.

and we talk for two or three minutes and then I'll leave to go upstairs and dine again. I'll see someone else who played. how did you do? I didn't see the result. Okay. how was it out there? And that's how you get a feel on the conditions. How are the balls playing? How are the players feeling? And it's just, it's a routine conversation. Things that we would, you know, if we saw each other on the sidewalk, walking through the street, we'd have the same exact conversation. So it's just, it's, it's fun. And it gives me a little bit of insight, not only to the person, but how they're playing gives me something to look for if

Alvin Owusu (04:53.463)
Yeah.

Alvin Owusu (05:03.051)
Right.

Chris (05:11.63)
They go on a run. Now I'm calling matches and I say, man, Sebi was telling me how well his forehand line has been filling. Look for him to try to implement that. And he actually used on a couple. Now it's like, that's the foreign line he used in the second round. It's still firing here in the third round. And so you just, you, you, you pick up little things here and there. And then the challenge is, is, is weaving it seamlessly and being able to tell a story, a cohesive story without, you know, overdoing it. So that's, and it also gives me a little bit of a challenge as well of

A bit of pride every day I wake up I take you in I'm like, all right, let's let's be good today Let's make sure we have a good call. Let's make sure I got if I want to pull a stat make sure I have it accurate If I don't want to pull it just sit on it or there'll be times where I got something I want to get in but we just have the right time and I got to kind of Bite it and say if it comes back around again, I'll use it But if it doesn't I got to be okay with not trying to force it in there So there's a dance there. There's a challenge that allows me to incorporate

my tennis side and the tennis talk that we like to do as players and kind of bring it to television or bring it to media.

Alvin Owusu (06:17.933)
That example almost reminds me of like I put my, just had a flash of being at like John Drew Smith Tennis Center in Macon, Georgia and everyone just comes off the course and they're around the clubhouse and you're like, oh how'd do? Like, oh that looked like a battle out there and it's a normal, at that point it's not commentator versus player, it's just tennis players talking. Yeah, that's awesome to hear. Do you feel like because you are so young, you're 29, I guess you have a birthday coming up soon here, happy early birthday.

Chris (06:24.612)
Oh man, jeez, it makin'.

Chris (06:33.092)
It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's the same thing.

Alvin Owusu (06:45.121)
because you are so young and you still are right out of your playing time into the booth full time, do you feel like it's more difficult for you to be as maybe even constructive with your criticism with players that you maybe might still be somewhat friends with?

Chris (07:06.658)
Yeah, not really because I feel like I just If you put enough time into it you can you can get the same point across and still keep these respectful Like if you put enough thought into what you're actually saying You can still remain respectful and say so-and-so didn't play well today Why didn't they play well today? The other the great thing about tennis is there's another person on the other side of the net That's causing you to play not play well if you're not playing well players aren't waking up doing treatment

warming up two hours before, eating, warming up in the gym and then going on court to just decide, you know what, I'm not gonna play well. I'm just, I'm gonna just not play well today. Like they don't do that. There's a reason. And so my job, if a player isn't playing well, I feel like it's my job to try to tell the story as to why I think they're not playing well based on what I see. Is there anything tactical? Like there's certain players that are just incredible ball strikers. They just, they hit the ball so pure on the forehand and backhand side, but they may not like the ball above the shoulders.

Torrey Hawkins (07:44.789)
So, I'm out of here.

Chris (08:05.219)
So you may go out there, you play a guy and you know if you elevated above the shoulder, they may start missing. Well, it may look like to the casual fan, wow, this guy can't put a four in in the court today. And it's like, no, but there's a reason why because his opponent is doing a good job of playing him deep on the second server turn, playing him high on the first one to push him back and then just elevating the ball over their shoulder the whole time. They're not just out there being like, I'm a miss. So that's where I think it allows me the opportunity to kind of let's flip it. Let's look at the other side.

and then try to tell what that story is and to see how do they, how do they mesh? Like how do they, what story is, you know, this player is doing this to this player. What are they, what are we really telling here? And so I've never found it to be that difficult. Yeah, there may be certain times where somebody will miss a shot and I'll say, that's a bad miss or that's a bad shot, you know, and I don't view that as a, a,

Disrespectful in a way. It's just like my opinion on what I saw maybe I think that was bad shot selection I think they maybe could have waited one more ball like you know a lot of time shot selection is just time and place So I always paint that picture as well like you go for a shot at 40 love and you execute it It's like great, but you go for it at 1530 you don't execute it Was it the right shot or was it was it just the poor execution like there's so many nuances to pro tennis that I think for years it's been kind of oversimplified and just being like

Alvin Owusu (09:17.933)
Right.

Chris (09:24.759)
You can't miss that. Why did they miss like not giving you as much of a understanding as to the why. And that's where I really I'm really excited about this opportunity to be able to explain more about the why and not just what's going on.

Alvin Owusu (09:39.79)
That's a really good point. we've, okay, I'm gonna ask you this question. Do you feel like the tennis audience is actually underserved then? As tennis has continued to become more more popular and then more and more investments being put into, obviously the media rights are just going up and up and up, right? So it starts to feel like the job of the modern day analyst is maybe changing a bit. Do you take that on personally and do you feel like?

something actually needs to be done differently.

Chris (10:11.201)
Yeah, I don't necessarily think that they're underserved. think they are they are consumers. They are sports fans or consumers of kind of like the way things have just always been. Like this isn't just the tennis thing. I think we're seeing over the past two or three years, there's been a rise in fans of all sports wanting to actually learn the nuances and the intricacies of the sports that they love. There's so much sports content out there, but there's not as much about.

If I'm watching basketball, the NBA playoffs is on right now and I'm I want to hear what is a DHL? What is a dribble handoff? What is the point guard looking for as they're coming off and they see their defender in drop coverage? What do these terms mean? And it's like I watched the game. I have so much access to the game. I can watch it pretty much whenever I want, but I'm still not really understand. I'm picking up terms and cues and things now, but I don't have that same understanding. But now we're saying even in basketball, there's

A lot of people are doing a better job of educating. lot of networks are putting the emphasis on educating the viewer. I think tennis is going to hit its point. That time is going to come. think just for a while, it just, you know, for whatever reason, it hasn't been. also think sports media is changing like a lot in these last few years. So give us some time to catch up. think we're going to start to see more educational and informative content.

I think it's just going to take time. think tennis fans will like it, you know, to be to be completely honest when I was a player, I didn't care too much really about. I don't want to say I didn't care. My focus was not on the tennis fan perspective of pro tennis, if that makes sense. Like I was that was not that never crossed my mind. My focus was on what tournaments am I playing?

Alvin Owusu (11:51.565)
Mm.

Torrey Hawkins (11:52.343)
It's good for the sense.

Chris (11:57.368)
what are the conditions like, where am I traveling to next? All right, I go from there to here. I'm mapping out my schedule. I'm focusing on my training. How fans perceive tennis, that was just kind of like, all right, great for them. Like that's not where my energy is being focused on because as a player, you gotta be very selfish. You gotta focus it on, you know, bit of things. And so when I answered the media space full time, it was interesting to me to be able to have to spend more time on like...

Torrey Hawkins (12:09.835)
lies.

Chris (12:23.648)
Social media and just watching the discourse around tennis and I'm like man There's a lot of stuff people don't know and there's a lot of stuff that people think they know that they have no idea but but I'm

Alvin Owusu (12:32.47)
such as.

Chris (12:37.091)
Uhhh, guys, it's tough to go off the top of my head.

Alvin Owusu (12:39.212)
Like what are fans completely, completely wrong about? Like what is the, I mean maybe you can go Mac or you can go Micro, but like what are fans chatting about that you see online and you go that is, no one except fans thinks that way.

Chris (12:55.203)
You know, I think there was a lot of conversation about Zverev last year, for instance, and they were talking about people are just on social media saying he needs to play more aggressive. He needs to get close to the baseline. And it's like you think it's that easy. Like you think it's that simple. But a guy that tall with that long of levers with that big of a backswing on his forehand, if you put him two feet behind the baseline, he's not going to have time for his arms to extend. He's going to be picking balls up off his shoe tops. He's going to be popping balls up middle of the court. And the guys are then

gonna step in and start making him defend. Whereas he likes to play further back so that he can have time to produce his shots, create length, and then slowly work his way back up. One that always gets me too, I think people don't realize how good Daniel Benvedim is. They have no idea. They see him and they're like, I don't get what does he do? Like it just doesn't, he stands so far back, like he just kind of hits the ball kind of flat, but why do you guys struggle so much with him? And it's like, you have no idea, that ball is spinning like this.

when that's coming to you and it's coming from such a long distance that when it hits the court, it picks up speed. And now you're in this position where you're like, either need to take it on, I gotta commit early to either taking it on or I gotta get back and play it neutral. By the time you play it neutral, he's gone from 15 feet behind the baseline to two feet behind the baseline because that ball is traveling at such a long distance. He's hitting a return and then he, it's like as the ball's moving forward, he's also moving forward. It hadn't even bounced yet. So like,

Alvin Owusu (14:14.976)
Right.

Chris (14:21.6)
And then you combine his ability to serve with how flat the back it's just an awkward ball to have to deal with time after time. And people, don't think realize how good Medvedev is. he just, and then, and, and, and even conversation around center, like Carlos has obviously the flair. He has the, the shop making and the wizardry and the feel and it just all areas. I think he's the most complete tennis player I've ever seen in my life. But like,

Torrey Hawkins (14:33.185)
Pure, balls.

Chris (14:49.952)
On the flip side, you have center and they'll people say he's just boring to watch. Like I just don't get it. I go. Center is one of my favorite players to sit courtside and watch because the sound that comes off his strings on both the forehand and the backhand side is bored a lot unparalleled because he can do it from the middle of the court and he can do it two feet outside the alley and the ball still sounds so pure and to watch somebody be that pure with their ball striking. And now we're seeing him starting to look to like.

get in and he'll take a little check step of trying to force his way in like I'm watching that and I'm like this guy is locked and so it's you know, those are just a couple things I got around three players that I've seen discourse about and there's even other stuff just how the tour actually works like people don't really know they're starting to get more and more educated. I think the more tennis platforms that are popping out especially with players or former players.

Like fans are understanding things like how whereabouts work how the media responsibilities work like they're doing a great job a lot of these tennis Media companies or just media companies in general of putting out there kind of a bigger picture of what pro tennis actually is with like the tour life But from a playing standpoint like there's so much stuff that I see and I see a lot of tennis Twitter like I'm on threads I'm on Twitter like I see it I just kind of look at the discourse and just kind of keep going like there's there's so much that's missed

Alvin Owusu (16:11.78)
Interesting, that's very interesting. It's funny how you mentioned that people don't appreciate Daniel Medvedev and he's a former Grand Slam champion in world number one. It's like, he shouldn't have to work for anyone's respect, all things considered. He's done the work and it.

Chris (16:23.618)
Exactly,

Torrey Hawkins (16:26.336)
And I was like twice, right? Didn't he final two? mean, so the three.

Chris (16:30.038)
I think he finaled three, I think he finaled two Aussies and then he beat Novak in the final of that US.

Alvin Owusu (16:32.844)
two Aussies, one US, final US against Nadal 20, well he also fought against Nadal as well. I think he was up two sets of love. Yeah, that might have been like 2019 maybe, something like that. Maybe 2018, something like that. That's really, really interesting. I wanna kind of take a little bit of detour here, because you mentioned kind of the top end of the game there, like the centers and the.

Torrey Hawkins (16:35.605)
to my point is the

Chris (16:42.204)
And he finally against Nadal Yura, he's up two sets of 11 that one, yep.

Alvin Owusu (17:00.436)
and the Alcarazas and even the Medvedevs and whatnot. In this particular podcast, we often talk about levels, right? And there are different levels within tennis at large. There are levels within the pro game. But we often talk about these tier gatekeepers. Like to get into the top five, need to be, it feels like Alex E. Menor is kind of standing right there. You gotta go through me first. And to get into the top 10, there's

you know, there's a player there, top 20, top 50, not necessarily the players themselves, but what does the average fan not understand about the difference in tiers within professional tennis? And that can be men's side, women's side. I imagine they're a little bit different as you look at both genders, but as a top 50 player versus a top 20 player, what are we really seeing in the difference there?

Chris (17:54.005)
Yeah, nowadays the level ain't that much different. The level ain't that much different. It's not like it. There's the guys that are top 50 could be top 20. If a lot of it boils down to a lot of it boils down to scheduling. A lot of it boils down to health. A lot of it. And the third one is just consistency. I think it's just the ability to do it on all three surfaces. Like in order to get top 20.

Alvin Owusu (17:58.433)
Bingo.

Chris (18:23.35)
Like you could look at my, my 2023 and use it as an example, right? I went from one 20 to top 30 and that was strictly from hard and grass court. Like there's going to be a seal unless you can play on all surfaces at a high level, there's going to be a certain ceiling. You're just not going be able to get through, but the level, the level of the guys now, I think players now are just way more complete than even they were two years ago. Like there aren't any real players who

Alvin Owusu (18:43.957)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (18:52.766)
really lock in on one surface in particular. Those players maybe typically will prefer the clay, but the way hard courts are now, got the guys who love the dirt are balling on hard court as well. You got guys figuring it out on the grass. The level is not that much different. It just boils down to consistency, professionalism. I think the margins are pretty small. It's like, you know,

The higher you get up the rankings, you start to see a lot more professionalism within the teams. You start to see players having maybe sports, like colleges have a strength and conditioning coach, a physio, like those strength and conditioning coach, physio. They're always kind of their top 50, even close to the top hundred guys. Maybe not every top 100 guy can travel with the physio every week, but top 50, they usually are pretty good about it. Um, but it, it, it, it's just, yeah, it's putting it together consistently. I think on all three surfaces and

from that point, it's just about who deals with the pressure the best. This guy is now 85, this guy is now 185, 250 in the world who can serve 135 miles an hour and hit it on crazy spots. It's just have they been at the stage of they quality into a challenger, they're in the second round and they're, know, first game of the third down zero or second game of the third or down 0-1, love 30.

Can they get out of that? Like the rest of it, they were serving well the whole time. Can they get out of that love 30 second serve, first game of the third, second round of a challenger? Cause the guys that are top 20 can do it at a challenger, at a 250, at a 500, at a thousand. And so I think a lot of it boils down to experience. The guys who kind of stay at that top 20 level, they have the experience for one of being able to be like, I've been here before. I know what this is like. So you can kind of rest a little bit on.

Torrey Hawkins (20:16.183)
you

Alvin Owusu (20:17.397)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (20:41.801)
not just experience, but you can take solace in knowing I've been in this situation countless times. I'll just do it again versus maybe a guy who's on the rise. This second round win could be a huge game changer for him. How does he deal with that pressure? So yeah, a lot of it, the levels there, it ain't that much different. It's just experience, consistency, professionalism. And yeah, I think in just being able to do it all year.

Alvin Owusu (21:07.401)
Yeah. And I almost feel like we're living through a little bit of a, an experiment. was like almost like an ATP experiment with Mr. Mr. Vashro, right? He's outside of the top 200. He makes a run and then he's got effectively 12 months of, of runway to, okay. Can you be a, can you be a day in day out top level ATP tour? And he's, yeah, he's doing it. Yeah, he's doing it, but it's interesting. It's like he's, he's obviously got all of the tools to, to play at this level.

Chris (21:26.793)
And he's doing it. And he's doing it. Yeah, he's doing it.

Alvin Owusu (21:37.676)
But before he got to this level, he was not at this level. And it wasn't like he worked his way from 200 to 150 to 100, kind of the more traditional route. And I think that's probably the same route that you had your waves with until Wimbledon. And so I'm always curious, and I've wanted to ask you this for a while, does the timing of that pop, how much does it impact how you look at the next 12 months?

Torrey Hawkins (22:03.383)
Hmm.

Chris (22:08.91)
I'll say in the moment like initially you're not even thinking about the next 12 months You're thinking about how can I capitalize on these next tournaments to keep this momentum going? What I'll say is if those few Months afterwards don't continue to pick up then you start to look at What's coming down the line? So like in my case, right all of my points were in that First half of the year. I got picked up after one, but then I picked up points. I like quartered Atlanta

Torrey Hawkins (22:26.359)
Start thinking

Chris (22:36.245)
third round, fourth round, DC, whatever. I think I'll second round the open, but like that European swing after the open in Asia, I beat Hoffman in Shanghai, lost to Casper. But yeah, after Shanghai, I didn't win another match for a while. And so at that point, I'm not really thinking about it because after Wimbledon, I'm still winning matches. It's like, okay, cool. But then Australia starts. I think I went around there, lose second round to Rublev, and then I'll start it going on a bit of a...

Alvin Owusu (22:56.363)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (23:03.713)
a tough stretch. And in my mind, I know the clay is coming up. I'm like, I really ain't got nothing for like for the clay, if I'm being completely honest with myself. But I was already I was ranked so high that I was in the Masters 1000s automatically. So I couldn't go and play a challenger if I wanted to. So I couldn't I couldn't pull out of Madrid or Rome and say I'd rather go play a 125 in Finland, you know, hard court. was like, no, I had to play these tournaments. So my first time doing a clay court season, I didn't have a choice and I had to play everything. It was great because I got the experience of

Alvin Owusu (23:06.719)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (23:18.824)
Right, right.

Chris (23:33.791)
Madrid, Rome, Geneva, Paris, it being main draw and then the grass comes around again. And now I'm like, buddy, all right. Now I'm doing some reverse math and going like, okay, this grass season needs to be good. And then I think I quartered Halle, I beat Pedro Martinez and then beat Bublik and I served for the match against Zhang.

Alvin Owusu (23:46.291)
Mega defend.

Chris (24:02.914)
in Halle to go to the semis. And that was a 500. So that would have done me a world of good. Like that one would have been, especially my York is the next week. So I don't get through that. I think I get broken, serve for it at whatever five, three, get broken. He beats me five and a third. I go to my York. I lose first round of Minsik or Menchik. Then I go from there to Wimby. I think I lose to Quentin, at least in a tough one. He just served me off the court. He had like come through qualities and was balling. He served me straight up off the court. And now I'm like,

Alvin Owusu (24:07.722)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (24:19.991)
you

Chris (24:33.185)
I'm back down until I 120 again. And so I think it depends. Like if you're doing like Vashro and you're still winning a lot of matches, like he's probably not even thinking about it. Vashro also is very good on clay. Like he doesn't have to worry about a certain block of time in the year where he's like, I'm really go struggle because that was me. It's like I, I didn't play on clay until I turned pro in 2018. So I'm behind the eight ball a lot. And so that I knew that clay court season was going to be a little tough, but you know, it is what it is. So yeah.

Alvin Owusu (24:35.487)
Right.

Alvin Owusu (24:44.531)
Yeah, yeah.

Chris (25:02.145)
Think that the timing doesn't really matter unless you're like me and you got this one pocket of time where you're like This is probably not who go well But yeah, if you're the players now, I feel like are so complete they can play on all surfaces that if someone pops like that You know a surface or a four or five-week stretch is it gonna be? That detrimental to them because they can they're gonna be able to pick up wins and figure it out during other weeks

Alvin Owusu (25:26.667)
Yeah, makes sense. TH, I know you had something you wanted to, you were trying to get in there when I cut you off.

Torrey Hawkins (25:27.447)
Yep. Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (25:34.079)
I was just gonna tell Chris I really appreciate his insights. I think that the tennis fan has been looking for that level of nuance for a long time. I don't think we've been served as well as we've been recently. I think coaches like and players.

like yourself, all the way to my main man, Brad Gilbert, had been doing a phenomenal job of giving us a little more of the color, so to speak, of the color commentary. And I think that's something that I really appreciate what you've done, what you brought to the table. just, even hearing you talk now about certain things, I'm just sitting back, taking it all in. You just have an infectious love for the game. And I personally, that comes off when you're on TV, obviously on camera.

I know you for a long time, so that's nothing new. You've always been that kind of a tennis, know, kind of a tennis geek, so to speak, where you're always just always wanting to know, I think you told Roderick one time, tennis nerd, nerd out on some tennis stuff, be it technique, right, be it rackets, be it, you know, whatever. So I would say that I have been underserved. I won't speak for me, I can't speak for the master, but I'll speak for me.

Chris (26:35.231)
Yeah.

Chris (26:44.561)
Hahaha!

Alvin Owusu (26:45.642)
Ha ha.

Torrey Hawkins (26:46.817)
But I also think too, Chris, that you have to be into that stuff. I think that all the sports in particular have all had this tendency to only hit the highlights and kind of see everybody else as journeymen and see everybody else as also rands. And I think that's been a big thing that I personally like that has starting to change. And I feel that, again, the more it happens, the more I like seeing it because I feel like you start appreciating the...

If you get to the end of a two week situation, right? A grand slam. You have to appreciate the people that you went through. It's seven matches, right? But you have to appreciate what those seven matches were. They are not just checking the box like, showed up. This guy didn't. Thank you very much. I mean, I feel like the tennis fan, you know, the average fan, perhaps, I can't speak for them, but perhaps got spoiled with the...

Chris (27:27.38)
Yeah, man. 100%.

Torrey Hawkins (27:43.711)
You know, one of the stats I used to hate hearing all the time, because I think it did an injustice to both players. Serena dispatches her opponent in 44 minutes. And I used to hate that because I'm like, well, number one, old girls, first time old girls played her, right? Serena is unbelievable, first of all. And number two, she hits the ball bigger than anyone you've ever seen, especially Serena in her prime.

Chris (27:54.292)
Yeah, yeah, same.

Torrey Hawkins (28:06.931)
And this young lady she played was maybe first time, second time. You don't just get a chance to play Serena all the time. And when you do, she's going to blitzkrieg you. That's what she does. And I say it to say, we put more emphasis on the time of the match and not necessarily this player's first chance coming out. So that's, again, I go back many, many years. I remember when Brian the Haley came back from Wimbledon.

And I was working with Haley at the time and I said, hey, who'd see that you were impressed with? Right? And he says, there's this Swiss guy. Guy's unbelievably clean. I mean, he was talking about this guy, like this guy is so clean, long, I think his name was Federer or Federer, you know, and I'm, know, of course now we all know about Federer, but this is maybe, you know, this is maybe 02, 01, 02, it was early. I don't think Fed had even beat Pete yet.

And he was talking about how everybody in locker room was saying, kid's going to be good one day. like he just, his strokes were clean. He moved, he floated around the court. Sure enough, he beats Peter next year. And I think the year after he won, he won Wimbledon. Now those, but again, had I not known Brian, I wouldn't have known that. Right. So I think.

hearing you talk about some of the players that you've seen, hearing your court side, hearing you the booth, and it's just really refreshing. feel like I got a little, we all, as the tennis public, have a little bit more of that kind of insight. We have our own inside guy, a little bit, you, who's always kind of given us some of that. And I just want you to, as a fan, as a fan of yours, but obviously as a tennis fan in general, just know that those of us who really are picking up what you're putting down, just know that we appreciate that. On.

on that note and I won't speak to anybody that doesn't do it. I told Alvin I was gonna keep it positive, was gonna keep it 100, I'm not gonna talk about anybody that I have had some critique. my God. And let me say this, your name, might be one of the few Chris's that I'm a big fan of. Let me just say that and I'll stop it right there. Anyway, so I'm gonna put that right there. I'm not going there for your sake. Here's what I'm asking, in light of that, who have you seen?

Alvin Owusu (29:53.066)
Tory's a hater. Tory's a hater. Big hater.

Chris (29:55.445)
Ha

Alvin Owusu (30:02.25)
Stop it. Stop it.

Chris (30:05.266)
It's not even, it's not even.

Torrey Hawkins (30:13.515)
We talk a lot about the next gen players. I think I keep telling Alvin, we need to give these players some time. Who is the player that every time you watch me like, man, this kid's gonna be good. Like I'm just impressed. I'm impressed with X, with YMZ, getting me a couple of players. And I just feel like he's doing everything the right way. And I just feel like he's only getting better.

Chris (30:38.174)
Yeah, I can give you a couple. I'll give you. Ethan Quinn, for sure, he has he has a world class forehand. Like when I say world class, I mean, if you get to sit and watch and practice and watch him at forehands, it is one of the purest sounds and has so much rotation and it's mad and it's easy. It's like he's not straining. He's just rifling it through. I last year at the open, he was practicing with center. I was at the ESPN booth and they were practicing right behind and I like.

Torrey Hawkins (30:44.843)
Okay.

Torrey Hawkins (30:56.631)
Yeah. Easy power. Yeah. Right.

Chris (31:07.592)
jumped down and was talking to his coach, Brian and Brad Stein, who also helps him out. And I'm just sitting there watching. I'm like, these guys are absolutely pure in the ball. And to see the way Ethan has progressed from breaking us out of the top 100 to now kind of being steady when it matches consistently, consistently qualifying in the tour events, 250s, 500s, like he's he's doing it right. So I definitely got to say, Ethan, there's a guy from Belgium, Collin Young. I'm really impressed with him. The guy's got a he's like a

Alvin Owusu (31:31.978)
Mmm.

Chris (31:35.008)
version of Botic, similar. He's got a, he's a, he's a incredible mover. But it's like a, it's different. It's not like a demon or it's not like a just scrapping all of the court. Like Colin Yeltsin big kid, like he's strong. But when you see him moving out of the corner, sliding, defending and the, and the weight of shot he can produce on his forehand, a hundred percent. You gotta say him. I think there's some other guys, another guy from Belgium, Blocks Alexander Blocks really good.

Torrey Hawkins (32:03.671)
I'll stop on the bottom. Yeah, Alexander, yeah.

Alvin Owusu (32:04.093)
Yeah, yeah.

Chris (32:04.576)
and I think the two biggest that people have talked about for a while Lerner and Fonseca and I think I've been really really impressed with both of them different reasons though Lerner the way that he's already started to adapt his game I think changing rackets was gonna was huge for him I did I was really like I don't know if he's gonna be able to continue to play at this high level with the blade I just think it was just too dead of a racket he got some more pop for his

Alvin Owusu (32:28.957)
Right.

Torrey Hawkins (32:31.872)
for his style.

Alvin Owusu (32:32.125)
What did he change to? was like an alt some kind of...

Chris (32:34.301)
He switched to a Wilson 100. It's more of a, it's a more power stick. He won pair of Mets like the week after pairs last year. It like his second tournament with the racket and then he won next year. So like he's able to get a little bit easier, pop, create a little bit more spin. I thought that was a great call. And then Fonseca, I think, I think that kid is, I think that kid is unbelievable. Like the, the, you know, you, talk, you asked me earlier, Alvin, you know, what are some things that I see? I think tennis fans get wrong. I think there's a lot of people who

Alvin Owusu (32:40.103)
Right.

Chris (33:04.595)
On the internet too, you have to be kind of weary and I have to remind myself too, it's filled with a lot of people who just want to hate and just want to put out negativity. they kind of like to, know, rage is engagement. So like if you say something bold and crazy and disrespectful about a player, you're to get a lot of engagement, views, shares, people saying, what are you doing? This is, so also I got to take that into account. A lot of these people just doing it for attention, but I have seen a lot of people start to say, well, you know, when are we going to start hearing from Fonseca? I'm like, can we rewind?

Last year he was in qualifying in Australia. So he was roughly about a hundred and fifteen hundred and ten in the world last year he Third rounds there beats Rubelett first round ends up third rounding Aussie open I forgot how he did in the clay. So I think he did okay, but then he goes to Roland Garrel's like third rounds again He's into a major in his own ranking like he's like third Usually dudes got to take first or second round L's and majors kind of at the beginning to figure out best of five How do I pace myself?

Torrey Hawkins (33:37.367)
Exactly.

Alvin Owusu (33:40.146)
Right.

Chris (34:02.962)
If it's hot, what do I do? If it's cold, what do I do? Like there's some adjusting that usually needs to take place. And so then he goes to Wimbledon, he goes to US Open, he comes at the top of this year, and it felt like at the beginning people obviously were throwing Fonseca's name around, but they're kind of like, well, I need to see something from him. I'm like, did you not see what was happening last year? Like he's only been here for 12 months. It's happening, like we're at the beginning of it. Like just sit back, let it happen, give us some time. I think.

Alvin Owusu (34:21.925)
Right, right. It's happening, it is, it's happening.

Chris (34:31.519)
And so I think that's from Sega. I honestly think the same with Ben. I think people forget that Ben was playing college tennis three years ago and his first year on tour. I believe it was in his first year. Whatever he semi Aussie, you know, quartered Aussie, semi US in one or two 50 his next year. He wins a 500.

Torrey Hawkins (34:49.174)
Yeah.

Chris (34:55.741)
He has a couple like I forgot what he did and all the other majors like fourth round third round like he's not really losing to anybody that's not Carlos or Yannick. And then he last year comes Semis Australia again. Yes, Semis Australia this time. And then the next year comes he wins a Masters 1000 and he's still racking up wins. So like each year from three years ago, he's gotten so much better and he's hitting so many shots from top 20 to top 10 to top five. Like he's hitting these benchmarks that you're like

Alvin Owusu (35:05.769)
They made Australian again.

Chris (35:25.149)
He's only going up and people are still finding reasons to say, he just doesn't have it or, or just find a reason to hate. And I'm just like, I don't, feel like guys, have this war perceptive perception of how long it takes for someone to really break through and be at the top of the game. Like I, I don't have the numbers in front of me. I think Ben's ascension has been one of the fastest I've ever seen. And I know back in the day guys used to go from college straight into semi slam. So I also need some respect them for those guys.

Alvin Owusu (35:46.172)
It's been crazy.

Chris (35:53.706)
But like recently a guy going from not like a senior either. He wasn't like a four year guy in college. He went to college a year early and he went for two years. And it's like, look at all that he's done already. I'm like, yo, Ben never plays another tennis match. He has had one of the best American tennis careers I've ever seen in the record book. like, let's, let's just, let's kind of, I understand we want things now. We want to see, you know, Carlos and Yannick broken up. Want to see someone break through. It's like, yo, let's give the players some time.

Torrey Hawkins (35:56.283)
That was true.

Chris (36:22.121)
Let's not just expect these things to happen so quickly. In a lot of players, it takes different timing for different players.

Alvin Owusu (36:27.741)
Yeah, we're very pro-bin around here and obviously TH has a long standing relationship with Brian and we're often talking about the same things that you're talking about, echoing like you, with Fonseca, it's like when you see a guy cut his ranking in half every year, he's on the right path. And I think the, right, the.

Torrey Hawkins (36:28.266)
I think. Yeah. Go ahead.

Chris (36:48.871)
He's, yeah, there's no cause for concern. Like, let's just give the kids some time to get acclimated and get adjusted.

Alvin Owusu (36:54.793)
The flash is what gets everyone excited about him, but he is also 19 years old, I think, and he is doing his job. We can be excited about what he could be, but it is definitely irresponsible to expect all of the things that we, general tennis consumer, wants to expect out of him. But I did wanna kinda go down this path with Ben a little bit, because you brought him up. As he has firmly gotten himself into the top 10, he's been a top 10 player now for two.

I think maybe last year he broke into the top 10, but he's a top 10 guy now. And he is, you know, there's some space right now between four and eight where there's a lot of guys who are, you know, vying for that kind of, if you take Novak out, vying for that kind of fourth spot. What do you think, let's say in the next two to three years, what's in front of Ben to make an ascension and actually start making a run at even the top two? Because he's,

He's one good month, month six week run away from racking up enough points to run to four. So it's not really like, that group right there is all kind of, they're pretty close together. But he's young, he's got the firepower. What is it gonna take for him to make the, we'll call it the leap?

Chris (38:11.487)
For him to keep doing whatever he's doing like I mean he and Brian this ascent this ascension that he's had has been

You couldn't realistically like write it down a better trajectory. Like the guy who plays NCAAs in May by the end of that year, six months of playing pro tennis, he's 97 in the world. Like, all right, that's pretty good. He then starts off Australia, he quarters struggles in that time in between. I think that was kind of like that sophomore slump and then USO becomes he's semifinals. So like he's able again, that sophomore slump that usually takes a player's a full year to do and then kind of struggled that next year.

Alvin Owusu (38:35.465)
Good start.

Torrey Hawkins (38:42.113)
Right, I agree.

Chris (38:50.547)
He did it in that middle gap and then from US Open semifinals on, he's been on fire and he's continued to progress. He's made strides to shore up the backhand. He's adjusted his return a lot. think this past week in Munich, he was really upping the MPHs on his first serve, playing a lot more first serves in the 130s, not using as much variety. Like they're constantly evolving his game and I think Brian does a great job of not being so locked in on his philosophy that he's willing to be like,

He's willing to adapt. Like I know Brian comes from the same generation of coaches who for a long time viewed the second serve return, you need to get up, you need to get on top of the baseline to be aggressive and sting it. And Brian has also been flexible enough to be like, you know what? Ben is having a lot of success when he goes deep on the second serve return because he's in a better position on the second ball of the rally versus the first serve return. If you're up on the baseline and you get up there you try to be aggressive and you don't connect.

Torrey Hawkins (39:42.839)
All right.

Chris (39:47.379)
You're running backwards at an angle. Now you defend and a lot of times the rest of the point. So Brian has also done a great job of adapting his philosophies to Ben and saying, okay, maybe that's something that I can change in Ben's development process. And you see the results. Like the guys, the guys playing some unbelievable tennis. He's been on a crazy trajectory. I don't see anything in his game that I think is lacking because I think all of the areas that you would look at a week as weaknesses are

getting better before our very eyes. Like his backhand has become so much more solid. So he's using, he's using a lot of variety using the backhand slice. Like he's, he's finding forehands in crazy locations. Like places, times where I see him running around his backhand to find a forehand. I'm like, what is he, where's he going? And then he'll just light one up and you're just like, all right, even if he doesn't make it, that guy on the other side feels that. And he's like, geez, this guy's like running around the world to hit. So there's a, there's a, there's so much.

Alvin Owusu (40:19.25)
So solid.

Torrey Hawkins (40:34.101)
Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (40:39.041)
Yeah.

Chris (40:45.5)
I think so much of a method behind Ben's game more than people give credit for it. I think he's just going out there just serving big and that's it. It's like, no, like he's developing a very good all around game. I don't know if he'll ever defend to the level of a center in Alcaraz simply because of his built. He's six four and he's built like a mad truck. Like he's just, I don't know how, how consistently will he be able to defend in the corners and slide and scrap and things like that? Can he do it every now and then for sure. A hundred percent, but

Torrey Hawkins (41:01.047)
you

Chris (41:13.606)
with those guys, those aren't the type of rallies or exchanges he's gonna want. So I think that's gonna be the one area of his game that I don't see getting up to those guys level just because I just think his game's all so different. But I think all the areas from forehand, backhand, to his defensive skills, to shapes, to serves, to return, he's improved it all so well over the last three years that I have no reason to think that it's gonna stop now. I haven't seen, there's been no level of stagnant

Alvin Owusu (41:41.574)
Like plateauing, yeah.

Chris (41:42.236)
Movement. Yeah plateauing that makes me be like, maybe they need to tinker something. It's like man, whatever y'all doing It's clearly been working. So just keep it working like keep working and then I think the biggest thing for Ben is gonna be experience like He has solidified himself now. I think as a guy that in the majors He doesn't really lose to anyone not named Carlos or Yannick. I think Novak Novak would be in that level as well It's just because of the task of beating Novak in best of five but bit like

Torrey Hawkins (41:48.151)
Keep it up. Yeah, keep going.

Alvin Owusu (42:01.48)
Right, he's been extremely solid there.

Chris (42:08.787)
Ben is very hard to beat in the best of five set match. Like the mental toll that it takes having to worry about his serve and then like, how am I going get the serve back? And then now he's playing solid from the ground. He's ripping winners. He's holding serve and he's taking huge cuts on second serve returns. He's making a lot more first serve returns. He gets his strings on. Like that's a lot of pressure to deal with over five sets. And I think that's why his record in five set matches in the Grand Slam has been so good. Like a lot of that's going to be experienced too.

Like he's gonna gain more and more experience as time goes on. He'll be, I think he'll be fine.

Torrey Hawkins (42:40.523)
I got three things on that, Chris. I wanted your opinion on it. Number one, I think Ben's lack of junior experience helps him. And here's where I'm going with that. Ben doesn't know what he can't do. Ben has this ability to, from what, and I told Brian this when we talked a few times, it's almost like he's still figuring out what he can and can't do and didn't play, I know it sounds weird to say, didn't play enough junior tennis to be.

told not to do some of the things. That's the moment.

Chris (43:12.498)
Man, T-Hawk, you are like, it's so funny you say that because Ben obviously played football growing up. really, he said it. He started really locking into tennis at 14. So there's a lot of, granted it helps having your dad who played pro tennis who can get you the fundamentals and let you have the proper technique. And obviously he was no stranger at 14 to tennis. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mom did too.

Torrey Hawkins (43:35.595)
Mom too, think mom played some top ball.

Chris (43:40.476)
Her brother was number one in the world in doubles. He comes from a crazy tennis family. But when you talk about not having those years of being told the things you can't do, I think back to my career, I think, granted, my career was far greater than I could have ever imagined when I was 14, 15 years old. Like, way exceeded my wildest expectations. But I always had in the back of my mind, I'm not a good mover.

because I have always been told growing up, I'm not a good mover. I'm not a good defender. Like Chris, you do not belong running side to side with these kids. Like that's what was in me from the age of nine and 10 years old. So my whole philosophy always in the back of my mind, I knew I could be a good ball striker. I knew I could play aggressive. I mean, that in a way helped to cultivate my aggressive game style because I knew it was almost like this is all I can do. And it worked in college and I was able to kind of fine tune it in college. And when I went on tour,

It was the same thing. It's like, I'm not now gonna start going back and trying to play shape and play margin. And like, I gotta take cuts. I gotta make guys feel uncomfortable. I gotta let it sometimes be in bit of an ugly match just to make this guy feel a little bit rattled and then I'll pounce. But I always in the back of my head was very well aware of my deficiencies and the things that I could not do and the things that I shouldn't do. And I think you hit the nail on the head. He does not know. He is out there and he's seen even areas that early in his career, you might say,

he's gonna need to get better at that. He's getting better at them. So why would he think that there's anything I can't do on a tennis court? Like, so I think that's 100 % right.

Torrey Hawkins (45:05.751)
that you can't do. I think the second, I thought you would probably would agree with me on that. And again, it's just the way I feel about it. I've known Ben and his sister Emma for a long time.

Torrey Hawkins (45:20.043)
The second thing, I felt like he overachieved that first Australia. So while he had a bit of a sophomore slump, I felt like he completely shot the moon on that tournament. And pretty much while it was a slump compared to Australia and some other results, I feel like he overachieved and really kind of got there on confidence, on just on being a gamer, right? And just was answering the bell. I mean, he wasn't necessarily that good, don't take anything away from him, but he wasn't-

that that good and I felt like he was winning off confidence and off of just being competitive and and just answering the moment and being in the moment. Quite frankly, I think that's actually a superpower of his where he's able to be in the moment better than most also because of not the juniors. He didn't idolize it was just hey, I'm just being competitive. That's what competitors do and I like that about him. One get your take. Is it a sophomore slump so to speak if you go from way outside?

to quarters of the darn of a slam, first time, I think it was the first time out. I felt like that was, is that really a slump or are you actually playing to form now? You just had a really good two weeks a year before. That was my second.

Chris (46:35.069)
See so yeah, it's a good it's a very good point very very good point. I also I think we got a Let's paint a little bit more context as to what happened before Australia been one on a tear in that US swing after the US open on those challenges I think he final one losses. I think Zach's fighter and then at the end of the year He went title title title. He beat me in the final of two of them in Charlottesville in Knoxville, and then he won champagne so he went title title tout

title to end the year on the Challenger side. That's how we got to 97 in the world. If anytime you win 15 straight matches, you were playing some really good ball. Like 15 straight matches, Challenger level. And then he had another final before that. And that summer, he beat Casper and he was showing some signs before that. But again, I think more so at that time, he was raw, he was powerful, and he was an excellent competitor.

Torrey Hawkins (47:11.649)
Play ball.

Chris (47:31.375)
One of the best competitors I've ever seen with my own eyes. One of the best competitors I've ever witnessed has been no doubt, no doubt about it. And so he ends that year, whatever that was, 2022, like tearing it up, right? And then he comes into 2023, plays at Australian Open. I think he lost in Auckland. He won a round in Auckland. I believe he may have beaten Sebastian Baez. I only know that because I think I watched it indoors. So then he comes in, starts off the year. I he lost in Brisbane.

to James Duckworth actually then he goes to Auckland play Sebastian Baez beats him loses to I think Quentin Hallease. But again racks up a win against a guy who's top 100 so like he's getting confidence along the way and then in that in that Australian Open. One of those first matches I think it was Xi Jinping. He is like a 10 point breaker in the fifth like he just he got got away through that I think Zhang was somewhere around 90 something in the world at that time. And then

At that point, because winning had become such a habit, I think his level started to elevate even then. Cause it's like, I was watching some of these matches, some of the matches in that first Aussie open run. like, granted Ben's like one of my best friends, but even when he was beating me in those challenger finals, there were certain shots he was hitting. I'm like, yeah, right. Like, what is it? Like back foot forehand slap inside out. Like who does this? And then I watched him do it in Australia. And I was like, he wasn't just riding a heater indoors. Like he's actually, he does like, he hits these shots.

I think after, and this is just my interpretation, I think that Australia showed his level to beat the guys that you could argue he was supposed to beat, because think Zhang was in the 90s, he JJ Wolfe in like third or fourth round. He beat a bunch of guys in that kind of 100 to like 40-ish range to make the quarters, and then he lost to Tommy. And I think after that, when I say the sophomore slump, I think there was probably just expectation of himself. I dealt with that in my own self, being like, oh.

I'm here now. I'm supposed to be winning all these matches. Then you're not now Ben's having a clay court season. Like he had to go through that whole clay. A lot of those L's as well were doing his first clay court season. And so I think there was just some acclimated and then the learning the tour, I think just take some time. Like he didn't, he didn't spend that much time on the challenger side. So he kind of shot up there so quickly. but yeah, I think

Torrey Hawkins (49:44.58)
All right,

Chris (49:49.177)
Can see what you're saying I just tend to think that because his results were pretty consistent before that Australian open he had kind of shown that his level was there and He just kind of took it to Australia and I think after that just took a minute to kind of get get his solid footing and understanding You know, yeah when you show up the tournaments now You can't just walk through the grounds and he would like coming like we were go watch matches together at the open He's a little different now. So I think that just takes some time

Torrey Hawkins (50:07.415)
for sure.

Torrey Hawkins (50:13.49)
And people get to know you too, don't they, Chris? After a while, when I say, now they know your game, you know them. They don't necessarily know you. And that's what you are. Now they got stats, got video, right? Right.

Chris (50:17.298)
Yeah, for sure, for sure, 100%.

That's a big thing. That's a big thing. They got now they have analytics. They got stats. They can look at what Ben wants to serve under pressure. Crucial points ad side against lefties. There's a stat for it. Like you could be as specific as you want to be with the analytics. so everybody starts to circulate the same scouting reports or they have different analytics companies will send you. Oh, if Ben may take, you know, on the ad side after he serves wide, he may take forehand line 60 % of the time.

So now you your people are starting to get little just not things to live on but in those pressure moments if you got a guess you go kind of lean with what you've heard as the analytics. You don't use it every single point is like guys are too good but you save it. You'll be like I know he likes to serve tea on the ad down break point. He may burn me a couple of times. Why whatever I'm a save it and 30 40 I'm a city and see what happens like. So when people start to get the scouting reports and they start to circulate it becomes a little.

Torrey Hawkins (50:55.339)
Yeah, just turn this. Yeah. Right.

Torrey Hawkins (51:09.921)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (51:20.473)
slightly easier for them to kind of guard against you. then Ben just shot through that by the summer and it is what it is now.

Alvin Owusu (51:30.299)
When you see that scouting report, especially like, there are analytical things that you're getting here on a piece of paper, right? It's okay, some of the things that you just mentioned. When you read it like your own scouting report, do you then look at it go, yeah, that's about right because that's actually what I'm trying to do or is this just a compilation of like kind of the way things go sometimes?

Chris (51:53.955)
Yeah, usually they're so good now. Like if you got a favorite pattern, Analyzer is going to be able to find it. And it's just and what it was, what it's really just go ball down to is when you're in the moment, you're not really thinking about it. You're just thinking about executing the play. You step to the line and say you want to execute. So if I'm saying and then also at certain times, the the numbers or whatever you're getting can be a little bit skewed because if

Alvin Owusu (52:01.361)
Okay.

Chris (52:20.241)
You can filter matches say by grass court matches in the last two years. Well, if you were to look at that, can use mine as an example, just cause I remember it well. Majorca Wimbledon. I played a good amount of lefties during that time. I played Ben, I played Manorino. I played, Lloyd, played Rinderknecht, I Mickelson, I played Tiago Montero, I played Cam Norrie. I played, yeah, so I played like four lefties, right? If you were to look at some of my serving targets,

You may be like, man, he really likes serving this serve, but it's going to be skewed because half those matches are going to be against lefty. So you also got to look for that type of stuff. but yeah, you, you, you kind of, for me, I like, there were a couple of things I wanted. wanted, what do they like to serve under pressure? cause I needed any edge I could get on return just to get any type of little cheat. What do they like to serve under pressure and where I love to know second serve patterns, second serve tendencies.

Cause if I can, if I can save and I can like, if I know a person loves kicking it, you know, body backhand, I'm a save it for like a 30, 40, and then I'm a step around, try to find a forehand. I'm like just, I'm not going to do it every single time, but I'm a let you get me with the, you chip it, chip it, chip it. And then last minute break point, I'm a step around, try to jump it. So every player has their own tendency. Some like to know what patterns they, or where they like to dictate play with the forehand, if they let it go more inside out or inside in.

You kind of get a feel for that as you're playing. Because also me, I got a one-hand backhand. Even a guy who might like to go inside in is probably going to take me more inside out because they're going to want me to get out there and chip. So it's different, but everybody uses it differently. But analytics certainly, I think, plays a part.

Alvin Owusu (54:02.266)
Okay, you mentioned a...

Chris (54:03.613)
Tor you I'm sorry Tor you have one one you had three things. Sorry with relation to Ben I just wanted to make sure I get to all your points

Torrey Hawkins (54:07.543)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to say that, you know, at some point, Chris, we want to get you back again, brother. So I'm going have to save one of you. You know what saying? The third one was, and you'll appreciate this, you're a tall player. Like, I feel like you hit on something, and I've been talking about this for a while. Number one, we need to change the way we coach certain players. Size is a big deal. Their short production is a big deal. You talk about Ben backing up, right? I also feel like a player like Ben.

You mentioned, you referenced Sasha's very, you know, also needs a little extra time. He's also about six, seven, you know what mean? Sasha's a tall brother. So I say it to say, there to me is a, the third thing was, is Ben better served? You know, to back up more on some seconds, unleash on that forehand, really get a good rip on the ball, and then be able to come forward in time, not maybe as flat and as big as a.

as a, you know, as a medvedev, but certainly big enough that he's dictating. He certainly has, he's playing downhill when he's serving. I saw that Kaboli match in the final. was, Kaboli was back by the, where the linesman's stands used to be. I mean, he was back there, he was back there by the tarp, you know what I mean? I mean, he was almost off camera. So I feel like in some ways Ben's ball's big enough, you know, the court's 80 feet, 78.

Chris (55:20.538)
Mm-hmm.

Torrey Hawkins (55:32.247)
He don't mind hitting a 90-95 football. I mean, if he can just unleash on it. To me, I wasn't even saying to your point about Brian being adaptive or being, I should say, you know, okay with kind of a little bit of both. Hey, this is working for you. I'm okay with you doing it because it seems to be what you like. I was going to say the third thing, and if I can put it all in one piece, isn't he better off using his levers, using his bigness of ball, roping his forehand.

Right? You don't want the first time you rope one to be ball four, you know, when you get that step up. You can start off roping that big forehand on ball one. You got racket speed and feel going on. You got range of rhythm, right? By the time you hit that third one, you're feeling it, right? To my point, I almost feel like he's better off doing that. You can always move in and hit a couple blocks, throw the guy off. What were your thoughts on him, especially in the clay court season, backing up some extra, really getting some action on that ball?

Chris (56:05.98)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (56:31.735)
To me, I feel like his backhand's starting to be pretty solid. And like Sasha, Sasha moves in on the backhand step in, right? He goes open on the forehand a lot. He'll redirect your line a lot to come back to his backhand. And then he cuts it off to be able to punish you on the backhand side. I think in some ways, all the lefty righty shouldn't then be backing up extra on the forehand, moving in the crank backhand cross.

And then at some point, now he's already roped you two or three, now he's feeling that four and he's, he ain't in a bad backhand. Isn't he better off starting some of his patterns in control with his racket speed? What were your thoughts on that? Again, clay court specific.

Chris (57:17.628)
Yeah, I think Clay Court, yeah, I think it makes sense. I think the more time he's gonna have to produce a forehand and get a hold of it, the better. Typically, too, when guys go really far back, here's another thing I see people talk about. When players go really far back on the second serve return, you'll see players just kind of roll in the second, because it's like, it's not worth the risk. Why am I gonna go for a 105 second when I know the person back there is gonna get a clean cut at it anyway? I'ma just get the serve into the court, start the point.

I'm a double fault trying to go 105, 100. Like it just doesn't make sense. So guys are typically when they, when you go far back, they'll just roll in the second. I think trying to find that first ball forehand and getting a good hold of it. think it's great. I would say, I think that his backhand is better suited when he's not as deep, just because it's more of that kind of rocking motion and swinging is unless you're in Medvedev where the Neil can kind of just create this slow length. That's just kind of, you're watching the ball kind of go to you and it lands.

Alvin Owusu (58:13.861)
Right?

Chris (58:14.746)
within three feet of the baseline. Ben's is a little bit faster. Like he's like rocking it and going. So I think if he's hitting backhands from far back, he's going to give guys a very hittable ball and a ball that they're going to want to hit. So it's like, if you go back, find forehands and work as much as you can to find forehands. If you want, when it's time to get up closer to the baseline, yeah, maybe then you could take some backhands, redirect, do whatever you want. But I think if he's going to be far back, I'd like to see him find as many forehands as possible. If he does hit a backhand,

Love for him to take the backhand line to force the guys to have to go back to his forehand. Just find that, find that space to find it on guys back end if he has to hit the back end and he can't get closer and regain court position. But yeah, I think you got it right. think being a little bit deeper works well for Ben. I mean, last year, what was it? He lost to Carlos like at the French open. Like in that, and they were having some battles, played him tough, played him tough. yeah, I mean, he's gonna.

Alvin Owusu (59:02.63)
Played him tough too. Played him tough. Played him tough.

Torrey Hawkins (59:07.447)
Yeah.

Chris (59:10.063)
He's already won Munich this year, beat Kaboli and straight sets in the final. he's, he's, you look at his progression even already starting off the clay court season. It's like, geez bro, like when are you going to slow down?

Torrey Hawkins (59:12.97)
Great.

Alvin Owusu (59:19.972)
I even text TH after that match, like, you could make an argument that Clay could be a really, really good surface for Ben if he just finds the best version of himself playing on Clay, because his ball has demons behind it. it's...

Chris (59:26.117)
For sure. For sure.

For sure.

Chris (59:35.803)
And it was interesting just because Munich was so cold a lot of the days and I was so surprised he was doing I text him I was like Rob surprised you're like enjoying the cold weather like that But then I think about it. I'm like a lot of the big hitting America big hitting Americans and just big hitting players I know in general preferred little bit slower conditions because they said I'm gonna be able to hit through whatever I got the firepower to hit through whatever the courts are

Alvin Owusu (59:57.616)
Right, right.

Chris (01:00:01.06)
If a court is too fast, now we got smaller guys who are getting more reward on their balls. Now it's like, I don't know if I like that. Perfect example would be how Hewitt was so dominant when the courts were quick. Like at US Open, at Wimbledon, when Hewitt was winning the world as a teenager, courts were ice and Hewitt was more of a counterpuncher. He didn't want the slower court, slower conditions. Like his ball got to shoot through it and scoot up. He just kind of butted it around. He took time away. He allowed the court to help him help his ball.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:11.681)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:21.092)
Yeah, he wasn't backing up.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:28.641)
time.

Chris (01:00:29.655)
So I think, you know, there's this notion like bigger players, regressive players like faster court. Some do, but I know a lot of them that likes like slow conditions and you saw how well Ben was able to play Munich. I'm like, can see it.

Alvin Owusu (01:00:42.086)
I mean, it's harder for a smaller player to produce that kind of pop when it's colder, but it...

Chris (01:00:44.751)
Yeah, and it's like, man, this big guy's over here just clubbing the ball and I'm fighting off back foot every single time.

Torrey Hawkins (01:00:50.433)
Yeah, he would also played on that rebound days back in the day that it heated up. It was that old recycled tire stuff. So that stuff heated up strong and back in Australia when that whenever it got whenever it got really, really warm as it often does in Australia around that time. So but I but I'm and he had that kind of slow high kick and kick serve and gave him all the time he needed to take the next ball early. But I was that was I was watching I was I was on the tour a lot with some players that time. I think it's exactly

Chris (01:00:59.515)
Ooooo

Chris (01:01:04.409)
Yeah.

Chris (01:01:11.899)
Yep.

Torrey Hawkins (01:01:19.611)
You're exactly right with the big hitters because it ain't, to me, and and Al will go around and around on this about it's ball speed and foot speed, right? So at some point you're hitting the ball pretty big. You better be able to cover what that ball's doing. You got that right.

Chris (01:01:32.347)
Man, you take your time away from yourself. You take it to a perfect example. I used to go back and forth and tell my coaches all the time. I'd get certain balls like middle of the court, not middle of the court, like kind of on top of the baseline. A ball where I got a little bit of time and I'm like, I'mma force it and I'mma go. I'mma force the issue here, whether it's sitting high, shoulder high, forehand. I would be maybe a foot or two behind the baseline and my coaches were always big on.

know, you see him stretch, get in, get in. And I would feel like, man, I feel like I'm gonna be catching a lot of balls in no man's land. And you're like, just go, just go, just go. So eventually I got good at the volleys down there at the shoe tops, but there would be plenty of times where I'd have a ball, I would crank it, the guy would guess right, get over there, fire it back. And I've taken like four steps from where I hit it. And I'm like, I took time away from myself because of how big I hit it, hit the approach versus.

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:04.745)
I get them up.

Chris (01:02:25.391)
Dy was so good about this when I would practice with him his approaches always has so much height and spin that it gave him time to get into the net and set up position So then it's just a tougher ball to challenge to like to pass and where she's also if I'm a line drive one It's easy to just have that in the pocket if you're on the run and just kind of get it at the feet Try to get it low over the net to go to shot pass That ball that's a little bit slower like Carlos does it all the time He'll take a mid-court forehand and that ball is going up and down and so even if you guess right

Torrey Hawkins (01:02:52.961)
Yeah.

Chris (01:02:54.831)
It's a little bit slower and you don't have as much just firepower to use back against them. And that's why Carlos comes to the net. He's always halfway inside the service box just putting away the volley because he has so much time to follow the approach and not just bang, bang.

Torrey Hawkins (01:03:00.041)
Yep.

Alvin Owusu (01:03:09.328)
You know, since you brought him up, Mr. Alcaraz, I'm not gonna let you get out of here without getting your professional take on the duopoly that we have formed here at the top of the program, pro game. Alcaraz Center. Back to our conversation about what do fans get wrong. When we see these players play fairly frequently, right, and there's obviously different outcomes each time, how do you view that matchup?

And then how is that, and then what do you think that the fans, what they see and talk about is completely off base?

Chris (01:03:48.227)
Yeah, so the fan part, to my earlier point, so much of it, feel like on social media, it's just rage bait. It's just people trying to, like any fan group of a player wants to like throw shade at the other fan group of the other player. So it's just throwing these things out there. Yeah, I'm sure you do. Like, I'm sure there's gonna be a bunch in the comments from this episode, like whatever, like I have time. They're just trying to create some type of drama.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:04.483)
We see it in our comment section here.

Alvin Owusu (01:04:10.575)
Clickety clack, clickety clack.

Chris (01:04:16.675)
I think, at least I hope, fans are...

Fans are appreciative of what we're watching because I think while we can, it's easy to say, it's boring. Is these two guys every, every tournament, every big title is like, like T-Hawk, you remember the Roger dominance and then the Roger Rafa and then the Novak and the Novak Murray. Like you remember when like someone kind of got in and disrupted. I remember it kind of, but not that much. was still very young at that time and I'm watching what we're seeing now. And I go,

This is really special. Like, this is really, really special. The level that these guys are playing at and the age in which they're doing it, like, I remember Roger chasing down that Roland Garros title to be able to get the career slam, and he was already the GOAT. He just didn't have a career slam. Like, Carlos got the career slam at 22. Like, this is crazy stuff. And so I just hope fans are appreciative of the greatness that we're seeing.

and not just take it for granted that these guys are so great. They're playing each other and every time it's like, no, every time they play each other, it is it's history. And I think it is where tennis fans want to sit down. Yeah, it's going to be fun when someone comes in there and breaks it up. Like, it's going to happen. Somebody is going to get in there at some point. But let's just enjoy it. Let's just not complain. And let's say, yeah, we can long to have it have, you know, our other favorite player be in that mix. But like, let's also just be appreciative of this time, because you never know how long.

These windows are going to last and we're going to look back and go, man, you remember that? I remember that Alcaraz center area where they were just arrow where they were just crushing it and they felt like they were so far ahead. Like we're to look back on this time and I just hope we have a good appreciation. In terms of the matchup, I mean, I think it's the most fascinating matchup in tennis in that I can remember in recent memories because in all of the other rivalries that I can remember, obviously Roger Rafa.

Chris (01:06:16.567)
It was, kinda, especially in the beginning, you got a sense a little bit of like, okay, Roger at Wembee, Roger on hard, and then Rafa started to get better. And then Rafa got Roger at Wembee. And now they're both kinda, Roger's still trying to get Rafa at Roland Garros. Never happens, but there were still these kinda, these pockets or these moments where you felt like one guy is gonna be a heavy favorite over the other in this situation.

Alvin Owusu (01:06:26.01)
Mm-hmm.

Chris (01:06:43.884)
We're not seeing that between these two. These guys have traded off wins back and forth and these guys making tactical adjustments to prepare for each other. And I think it's great. I think it's great. No one has run away with, you know, crazy head to head for a certain period of time. Like what we saw last year, Senna's ability to rebound after that rolling girls final. I don't know how he did it. I don't know how he did it. I still can't figure out how he was able to put that behind him to then beat Carlos at Wimbledon.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:05.302)
Yeah.

Chris (01:07:10.84)
It's like, that's crazy. Like, center should have won Rolling Garos. Carlos was the favorite at Wimbledon. And so they just kind of swapped a little bit. Carlos wins, Rolling Garos. Center wins Wimbledon. They play in the final. Carlos brings out, he learns from the Wimbledon final. He brings out new tools to the table, beats center in four at the U.S. Open. Center then goes on and beats Carlos, I think, a couple more times to end the year. Like these guys are trading back and forth. They're playing chess. They're trying to figure each other out. And I'm like,

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:14.145)
to that.

Torrey Hawkins (01:07:29.259)
Thank you.

Chris (01:07:38.02)
This is so fun to watch. Carlos is now trying to figure out how to disrupt the rhythm of center with his variety. Center's like, well, I can bring variety to the game too. I can pressure the Monte Carlo finals. Center was pressuring tons of seconds of returns on Carlos. Like the chess match is so fascinating. And I just, hope people appreciate it and don't just take for granted that these guys are playing all the time. Cause there's going be a time where we're going to be like, man, those guys were aliens out there and we, we, we took it for granted.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:06.263)
Man.

Alvin Owusu (01:08:06.371)
Yeah, especially with this wrist thing that Carlos has that's recently popped up. It's like we might not see him for a little while and then people are gonna, we're gonna very quickly realize how good we had it, especially if he does not play rolling arrows. So we'll see, TH.

Chris (01:08:10.552)
Yeah. Yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:19.287)
I'm old enough to remember when Borg and Mac were starting to heat things up and then one day Borg just gone. And I felt like it actually hurt Mac a little bit because they were getting better.

Chris (01:08:30.286)
I think John, if I'm not mistaken, think John maybe has kind of said something to that effect. know, his biggest rival walking away at that young, yeah.

Torrey Hawkins (01:08:34.771)
I'm telling you as a kid watching, right, saw tennis was starting to have a true rivalry and I hadn't seen anything like that until then. And then obviously after that, of course, you had Pete and Andre and all the many years they were dominant, you know, and that's not to say that the guys that won some slams in between weren't good, they were darn good, especially because Pete and Andre were in the mix. But I say it to say now, then you had Roger come on board and I think he won what, nine in like?

Nine out of 12, I think it went nine in three years, think. Everything but the French, right? Or pretty much. And then you start and see that rivalry. I cherish some of those matches they watched, man. I I cherish being there watching that greatness. And to your point, I feel like it's an unfortunate impatience or somehow we're gonna get tired of that. If you love good tennis, you're not at all.

Chris (01:09:08.281)
Yeah.

Chris (01:09:14.623)
man, for sure. For sure.

Torrey Hawkins (01:09:32.672)
disappointed when you see those two. So let's be out of the bad. And I think they're still young enough. I hope that most tennis fans get that to your point. You know, we're not, I know I, and I love how good they're making each other. So each tournament they play, each iteration is even better than the last. And you know, I've made a good point. It may not always be like a French Open final, right? It may not always be five set, you know, crazy going down to the end.

Chris (01:09:34.875)
Exactly 100 % 100 %

Alvin Owusu (01:09:35.095)
You

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:01.432)
But I feel like each time they lace them up, it's gonna be 100 % fun to watch. it might just as a strong chance, it might be one for the ages if you're lucky. And I just think that's, I'm really hoping, I really like it when they're taking tennis. And at the end of the day, what they're gonna do is they're now gonna end up making the next players who catch them be that much better. And see, I think that's always.

Chris (01:10:21.134)
Yep, agreed.

Chris (01:10:28.954)
I mean, it's the same. Tennis has always been a game of evolution. is always. You go back to from John and Bjorn to the guys that came after them. and it's not even just tennis. I think even calling it just a tennis thing is almost doing sports as a whole a disservice. the more you can watch the guys ahead of you and learn and learn what they learned at a younger age, you're going to be better.

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:34.807)
We'll see.

Alvin Owusu (01:10:44.548)
Well, even Steph in basketball, right? Like it's...

Torrey Hawkins (01:10:53.911)
100%.

Chris (01:10:54.178)
That's just that's just the reality of it like you're going to maybe you don't understand the nuance or the pressure or this or that but from a skill standpoint if If I got if if certain skill sets from certain players they picked up I worked with this coach when I was 23 and he told me this and it it changed this for me and That becomes a thing that a kid is learning at 13 or 14 It's like center to me is a perfect evolution of what we've seen from Djokovic

It's the perfect evolution. It's like he does almost everything Novak does. He just hits the ball harder because he's had more years of doing left foot slide, hit backhand, forehand slide, hit forehand. Like he's been doing what Novak was doing on TV when Novak was like obviously leading in it, but was still figuring it out. Center was like, I'll just, you know, if you go back and look at old matches of Novak in like 07, 08, like Novak was sliding a little bit on the left foot, but it was more of a step. It was like a stab, like a little jab.

Torrey Hawkins (01:11:44.823)
Look, you are either.

Chris (01:11:52.538)
Center's full on, like seven feet. It's like, yeah, this is the evolution of tennis, this is the evolution of sport. They're gonna continue to push the game forward, and I think the game is obviously gonna be better as a result.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:05.316)
in the same way like you mentioned, like the evolutionary aspect of it. Like Carlos wins his first Grand Slam in 2022, right? So he's effectively been with us for four years. How old is someone like, you know, we've got 19 year olds, Fonseca. You've got Yodar, those guys were 15. They were juniors and playing, watching these guys on television like, oh, let me go try to do this.

Chris (01:12:15.192)
Yeah, that's a point.

Chris (01:12:26.286)
Yeah. Yep. They're watching it going like, the drop shot is a good play. Now I remember when the drop shot was a taboo shot and coaches didn't want you to use it it looked like you were showboating or you were trying to check out of a point or bailing out of a way. Exactly. Bailing out of a point. Now it's like, the deepest guys are playing. That's a viable option. So let's practice it. So it's the game is going to continue to evolve.

Torrey Hawkins (01:12:37.815)
or bailing out, exactly.

Alvin Owusu (01:12:49.122)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Chris, I appreciate the time today. We didn't get a chance to touch much of the WTA side of the house. So maybe next time we have you back, we'll dig into the lady side. I personally, I find a lot of interest in what's going on in women's tennis right now. It's extremely entertaining. It's extremely complex.

Chris (01:12:58.254)
Yeah, that'll be fun. That'll be fun. We'll have to run it back.

Torrey Hawkins (01:13:05.579)
return.

Chris (01:13:08.218)
Yo, it's and it's so different from the men's side like though the women's side. It's like there's so much parody there Any grand slam that comes into there's a few names that you're looking to like they could win it And so yeah, it makes for a fun conversation. We'll have to do it

Alvin Owusu (01:13:10.594)
So different, it's so different.

Alvin Owusu (01:13:19.493)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well again, Chris, thank you. Tori, thank you as always. Yeah, double thank you and best of three. Guys, we are out.